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[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]There are 100 valid reasons why LeBron will never catch MJ. This is not one of them. It is better to have taken a team to the Finals than to have lost in the first round. Its a nonsensical argument. If a player can't even get his team into the playoffs its better than another player taking his team to the Finals and losing??[/QUOTE]
it isn't about his team losing, it is about the fact that he played awful
Lebron will go down as one of the all-time greats, but as of right now, and most likely for a very long time, no one will be able to dethrone MJ.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WR86xLSITc[/url]
[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]There are 100 valid reasons why LeBron will never catch MJ. This is not one of them. It is better to have taken a team to the Finals than to have lost in the first round. Its a nonsensical argument. If a player can't even get his team into the playoffs its better than another player taking his team to the Finals and losing??[/QUOTE]
MJ lost in the first round to some legendary teams, and that was part of the making of his legacy. The "legacy", ie somewhat subjective part HAS to factor in to figuring out who the GOAT is. Otherwise we're just counting numbers from different eras.
The fact that once MJ got a taste of the finals, he kept coming back and winning, is a CRITICAL part of his legacy. If he had won his 6 rings in a 1010101 configuration instead of 3-peats, and had not shut out legends like Barkley and Malone, the debate around GOAT would be much more active. It's an argument based on perceptions, but the fact is if you watched basketball back in those days, MJ owned the league and had a mental edge on everyone that he rode to those 6 championships. Nobody has come close to doing that. LBJ doesn't just need 6 rings to compete with MJ, he needs some of them in succession. He needs to build that edge that nobody else has.
[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]it isn't about his team losing, it is about the fact that he played awful[/QUOTE]
Which is one of the 100 other reasons. But to say Jordan was perfect in the Finals ignores the fact that he won 6 titles but lost in the playoffs 7 times.
Its also important to point out that at no point during MJs career was it legal to play zone defense. That is essentially entirely how LeBron has been defended, especially in the playoffs.
I absolutely agree. He may not have the career MJ had but he is definitely a better overall player.
[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]Which is one of the 100 other reasons. But to say Jordan was perfect in the Finals ignores the fact that he won 6 titles but lost in the playoffs 7 times.
Its also important to point out that at no point during MJs career was it legal to play zone defense. That is essentially entirely how LeBron has been defended, especially in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
You are showing your youth here. The defense played in the 90s was more intense than the defense played today, and some of that has to do with rule changes regarding perimeter contact. You just have an agenda.
Zone defense? Really people? :oldlol:
[QUOTE=TylerOO]I absolutely agree. He may not have the career MJ had but he is definitely a better overall player.[/QUOTE]
um...no
just no
it is really obvious who grew up watching MJ and who didn't in here
Huge Lebron fan here however he has a lot more to prove to be in that conversation. Talent Wise and Physical Skills he is definately in the conversation already but Results are what matters in the long run.
[QUOTE=Mrofir]MJ lost in the first round to some legendary teams, and that was part of the making of his legacy. The "legacy", ie somewhat subjective part HAS to factor in to figuring out who the GOAT is. Otherwise we're just counting numbers from different eras.
The fact that once MJ got a taste of the finals, he kept coming back and winning, is a CRITICAL part of his legacy. If he had won his 6 rings in a 1010101 configuration instead of 3-peats, and had not shut out legends like Barkley and Malone, the debate around GOAT would be much more active. It's an argument based on perceptions, but the fact is if you watched basketball back in those days, MJ owned the league and had a mental edge on everyone that he rode to those 6 championships. Nobody has come close to doing that. LBJ doesn't just need 6 rings to compete with MJ, he needs some of them in succession. He needs to build that edge that nobody else has.[/QUOTE]
I think you have me wrong. I am almost certainly more age appropriate to have enjoyed MJs career than almost anyone here. I don't think LeBron is CLOSE to MJ. He has to stay at this current level for several years before it can even be suggested. But for some reason we have to compare greats.
I think LeBron with his strength would have fared VERY well in MJs age. He also would have been far more of a scorer than he is today since he has been defended almost entirely by defenses that Jordan never faced (zone vs man).
[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]Which is one of the 100 other reasons. But to say Jordan was perfect in the Finals ignores the fact that he won 6 titles but lost in the playoffs 7 times.
Its also important to point out that at no point during MJs career was it legal to play zone defense. That is essentially entirely how LeBron has been defended, especially in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
and again -- anyone who watched basketball during the 90s knows MJs legacy would not be the same if it wasn't for the 3-peats and the fact that once he tasted finals success, he literally refused to allow a litany of other legendary players win a ring, until he retired. The ONLY reason Hakeem is so highly regarded is that MJ played baseball.
([SIZE="1"]don'tgetmewronghakeemisagreatplayerbutstillwithoutringsdifferentlegacythankstomjretirement)[/SIZE]
[QUOTE=Mrofir]You are showing your youth here. The defense played in the 90s was more intense than the defense played today, and some of that has to do with rule changes regarding perimeter contact. You just have an agenda.[/QUOTE]
It's actually common knowledge amongst any educated bball fan, as well as anyone who watched Jordan in his prime, that perimeter defense is not allowed to be as good today. Read up on [URL="http://bit.ly/JUqdKB"]"The Death of Defense"[/URL]
[QUOTE=Mrofir]and again -- anyone who watched basketball during the 90s knows MJs legacy would not be the same if it wasn't for the 3-peats and the fact that once he tasted finals success, he literally refused to allow a litany of other legendary players win a ring, until he retired. The ONLY reason Hakeem is so highly regarded is that MJ played baseball.
([SIZE="1"]don'tgetmewronghakeemisagreatplayerbutstillwithoutringsdifferentlegacythankstomjretirement)[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
would have been a 7-peat had his father not died
and no one disputes that fact either
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]It's actually common knowledge amongst any educated bball fan, as well as anyone who watched Jordan in his prime, that perimeter defense is not allowed to be as good today. Read up on [URL="http://bit.ly/JUqdKB"]"The Death of Defense"[/URL][/QUOTE]
You are agreeing with me, just confirming. lol
[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]I think you have me wrong. I am almost certainly more age appropriate to have enjoyed MJs career than almost anyone here. I don't think LeBron is CLOSE to MJ. He has to stay at this current level for several years before it can even be suggested. But for some reason we have to compare greats.
I think LeBron with his strength would have fared VERY well in MJs age. He also would have been far more of a scorer than he is today since he has been defended almost entirely by defenses that Jordan never faced (zone vs man).[/QUOTE]
Dennis Rodman probably would have guarded LBJ in the second three peat era. I would give anything to see that.
edit: Lebron facing those bulls teams would have seen a combo of pippen\jordan\rodman... just imagine those 3 vs lebron\wade on defense. The imaginary heat\bulls matchup is just so delicious to think about. Not saying anyone can shut LBJ down, but he would have had problems with Rodman especially. Bosh would have to score 30pts per game for the heat to compete. Or Chalmers would have to be KJ.
[QUOTE=Mrofir]You are agreeing with me, just confirming. lol[/QUOTE]
Yep.
As for people that say MJ never faced doubles and triples or zones? That MJ was never doubled without the ball? This video debunks ALL those lies:
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE"]K Jordan VS Zone Isolation 1-1 Defense[/URL]
Truth ALWAYS wins :)
Just perfect, 4 pages gone by and only ONE mention of [B]a single [/B]big man (prime Shaq)...:facepalm
[QUOTE=Mrofir]You are showing your youth here. The defense played in the 90s was more intense than the defense played today, and some of that has to do with rule changes regarding perimeter contact. You just have an agenda.[/QUOTE]
10 bucks says I'm older.
The defense was more physical to be sure. You could "hand check" which was just allowing people to grab your hips to slow you. But the defenses couldn't play zone so you would famously have 3 guys standing at one side of the court and play 2 on 2 on the strong side. Now there are USUALLY 4 people on the strong side. If you look at how Boston defended LeBron in all those playoff wins (Thibs was the first one to really maximize use of the zone rules) there were always 3-4 defenders designed to stop him.
Its a completely different, and far more complex, obstacle. And the difference in scoring variance is enormous. In 88-89 there were only 25 teams. But there were 28 players who avg >20ppg. This year there are 30 teams and only 9 players >20ppg. Defenses are far more complex and they are designed to make the stars defer to lesser players.
[QUOTE=Mrofir] You just have an agenda.[/QUOTE]
I am a GROWN MAN. My house is filled with original art and prints from the great museums of the world. With one exception: I have a framed picture of MJ.
If I had an agenda it is to glorify his existence and to celebrate the fact that I get to breathe the same air he does.
I will laugh at this accusation for the next 20 years.
wow!!
LBJ is definitely a better than Copy Cryant no doubt all-time & on current peak prime years.
BUT
LBJ aint at MJ level till he gets to 32.5 / 8 / 8 @ 53%FG with 3 SPG.
right now, LBJ is pretty faar off from MJ or Bird or Big Os 30+PPG triple double season.
[QUOTE]I honestly think if Lebron played in MJs time he would have suffered the same fate, by virtue of mental toughness alone. I don't think Lebron is mentally soft (anymore), but MJ would have protracted Lebron's early struggles and used it to destroy him.[/QUOTE]
And he nails it, folks. The true GOAT was a mental assassin. Current LeBron is still mentally hit-or-miss, while prior to last year, he was a mental midget. It wasn't just the Finals failure in 2011. There was a another Finals failure or at least drastic underperformance in 2007 (he was not expected to beat the Spurs, but he WAS expected to at least fight) and similar failures/ underperformances in the 2009 and 2010 ECSFs. That's FOUR big-stage playoff let-downs, not one.
MJ would have eaten LBJ's lunch. So-called "LeBron generation kids" need to wipe their snotty noses and go do their homework-- their [I]history[/I] homework.
LeBron is already top 10 in my mind. But, I am uncertain of whether he will ever be top 5. The following are a list of players that I question whether he can ever surpass:
[B]MJ[/B]
[B]MJ[/B] (the two MJs are practically untouchable)
[B]Wilt[/B] (even more statistically dominant than LBJ and, so far, more championships)
[B]KAJ[/B] (Bron trails by six titles, many all-time records, and longevity of performance)
[B]Shaq[/B] (more titles/ FMVPs; more dominant than Bron in his prime)
[B]Bird[/B] (LeBron without the athleticism but with a dead-eye shot; more rings)
And who even knows how to evaluate Bill Russell? Anyway, LeBron is in the next group with TD, Kobe, etc.
And finally, it has to be said, Jordan never played with a Wade. Pippen never gave Mike anything approaching the support in a Finals or postseason that Wade provided James last year on one damn leg no less.
In fact, LBJ still isn't that much better than a maximized Wade (notice my choice of words-- I said "maximized", not "prime", as in Wade is nowhere close to being maximized currently; subtract LeBron from the team, and you'd see he is very much still in his prime). Don't believe me? Check how close their career per 36 stats are, even in spite of Wade's several injury-plagued years and him having spent quite a few years as a 1b, 2, or 3/4 option (rookie regular season).
Now, "LeBron generation kids", I want you to write the following 100 times:
[B]I will stop overrating LeBron and insulting Michael Jeffrey Jordan, the greatest player that ever was.[/B]
[B]I will stop overrating LeBron and....[/B]
Lebron arguably isn't even better than Prime Wade, how is this niqqa supposed to be better than Jordan?
[QUOTE=jrong]And finally, it has to be said, Jordan never played with a Wade. Pippen never gave Mike anything approaching the support in a Finals or postseason that Wade provided James last year on one damn leg no less.[/B][/QUOTE]
This is not true.
Pippen's first 3 Finals were a solid for a second option. Pippen's 91-93 run postseason is very much comparable and was a better defender.
All right now OP I will say this for ya:
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cAUmFIIHiis/TFjN89jl92I/AAAAAAAADWo/myY5PoN6K0E/s1600/brass+balls.jpg[/img]
What you said, is said.
LeBron in his youth trashed out the League like very few have in history. People bash him for failing at the highest levels. But who else took Cleveland garbage to that mountain top? If it was too much for a boy to do, where is the shame in that? What he did at 23 was spectacular!!
Now, he's a man in the man's League and he has a team around him that competes at the highest level.
We'll just see.
If you say so.
People whose minds are made up are impervious to anything that disagrees with them, so it's pointless to argue the point.
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]This is not true.
Pippen's first 3 Finals were a solid for a second option. Pippen's 91-93 run postseason is very much comparable and was a better defender.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. A few less points, a few more rebounds and assists. Basketball Reference only has individual playoff game boxscores, not series averages, so I couldn't check Pip's Finals performances without doing a bunch of math that I'm not willing to do right now.
But, these series came earlier in Scottie's career than 2012 did in Wade's, and as I said, Scottie didn't have to go under the knife as soon as the parade was over. And there is no way Scottie could have ever taken the reins in a Finals with MJ standing there watching him, as Wade did in 2011. People forget that if Brian Cardinal hadn't injured Wade in Game 5, he still may have been able to carry LeBron's underachieving ass to that title.
So I stand by my statement: Jordan never played with a Wade.
Entitled to your opinion but I personally wouldn't rank him over people like Chamberlain, Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Magic etc
[QUOTE=jrong]Fair enough. A few less points, a few more rebounds and assists. Basketball Reference only has individual playoff game boxscores, not series averages, so I couldn't check Pip's Finals performances without doing a bunch of math that I'm not willing to do right now.
But, these series came earlier in Scottie's career than 2012 did in Wade's, and as I said, Scottie didn't have to go under the knife as soon as the parade was over. And there is no way Scottie could have ever took the reins in a Finals with MJ watching him, as Wade did in 2011. People forget that if Brian Cardinal hadn't injured Wade in Game 5, he still may have been able to carry LeBron's underachieving ass to the title.
So I stand by my statement: Jordan never played with a Wade[/QUOTE]
Good points.
At their best and primes, I agree that Wade is better. Wade will probably end up higher than Pippen too on most consensus all-time list with more playoff success, if he isn't already.
He's pretty damn good. How good? I don't know.
It'd be fun to revisit the top 10 all-time peaks project though (the voting fell apart due to stans going at it).
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Good points.
At their best and primes, I agree that Wade is better. Wade will probably end up higher than Pippen too on most consensus all-time list with more playoff success, if he isn't already.[/QUOTE]
Scottie in the first 3 peat > last years and current wade
[QUOTE=Young X]Lebron arguably isn't even better than Prime Wade, how is this niqqa supposed to be better than Jordan?[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll:
[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]All right now OP I will say this for ya:
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cAUmFIIHiis/TFjN89jl92I/AAAAAAAADWo/myY5PoN6K0E/s1600/brass+balls.jpg[/img]
What you said, is said.
LeBron in his youth trashed out the League like very few have in history. People bash him for failing at the highest levels. But who else took Cleveland garbage to that mountain top? If it was too much for a boy to do, where is the shame in that? What he did at 23 was spectacular!!
Now, he's a man in the man's League and he has a team around him that competes at the highest level.
We'll just see.[/QUOTE]
These are the kind of threads that make people hate LeBron. Hell, I'm obligated to root for him (until he goes back to Cleveland in 2014), and you all are making me think that Kevin Durant/Chris Paul: 2013 MVP/FMVP has a nice ring to it.
I don't know why people think he's far from Jordan or something. Jordan put 5 points more than Lebron in average, but Lebron is a better passer. Efficiency wise they are on the same level. All around skill are close too.
[QUOTE=jrong]These are the kind of threads that make people hate LeBron. Hell, I'm obligated to root for him (until he goes back to Cleveland in 2014), and you all are making me think that Kevin Durant/Chris Paul: 2013 MVP/FMVP has a nice ring to it.[/QUOTE]
Don't say "you all" when talkin to me because I'm not part of that gang!
Both those guys are terrific but to me james is looking at some more hardware at this point
[QUOTE=Segatti]I don't know why people think he's far from Jordan or something. Jordan put 5 points more than Lebron in average, but Lebron is a better passer. Efficiency wise they are on the same level. All around skill are close too.[/QUOTE]
Big O has been watching from that same viewpoint as you - tell him hi when you see him
This is your brain.
[QUOTE=Segatti]I don't know why people think he's far from Jordan or something. Jordan put 5 points more than Lebron in average, but Lebron is a better passer. Efficiency wise they are on the same level. All around skill are close too.[/QUOTE]
This is your brain on basketball knowledge.
Scoring: MJ
Penetration: MJ
Post: MJ
Jumpshot: MJ
Open-court: Push
Finishing: Push
Offensive repertoire: MJ
Passing: LJ
Rebounding: LJ
Offensive rebounding: MJ
Defensive rebounding: LJ
Defense: MJ
On-ball defense (perimeter): MJ
On-ball defense (post): MJ
Off-ball defense: MJ
Team defense: LJ
Steals: MJ
Blocks: MJ
Shooting: MJ
Mid-range: MJ
Three-point: LJ
Free-throws: MJ
Handles: MJ
Efficiency: Push
Clutch: MJ
Mental game: MJ
B-ball I.Q.: Push
Better teammate: LJ
Leadership: MJ
Any questions?
i dont know why people really overrate lebron.. he might have pretty stats but when it comes to offensive rating, even dirk is better than him. Now durant in his 6th year is already better than peak dirk. I actually think that dirk is better than lebron and couldve been ranked higher if he wasnt screwed by the refs in his first finals appearance. Dirks career really is almost the same as lebron and he was playing in the tight western conference.
I really view lebron as a low risk low reward type of player. If you want to win right away, you pick him but theres a higher chance too that you wont win a ring if you only surround him with lesser players whereas (durant,dirk) is the high risk high reward type of players where theres a greater risk that you would fail if you dont know how to build around them but you only need lesser players to win with them.
[QUOTE=knicksman]i dont know why people really overrate lebron.. he might have pretty stats but when it comes to offensive rating, even dirk is better than him. Now durant in his 6th year is already better than peak dirk. I actually think that dirk is better than lebron and couldve been ranked higher if he wasnt screwed by the refs in his first finals appearance. Dirks career really is almost the same as lebron and he was playing in the tight western conference.
I really view lebron as a low risk low reward type of player. If you want to win right away, you pick him but theres a higher chance too that you wont win a ring if you only surround him with lesser players whereas (durant,dirk) is the high risk high reward type of players where theres a greater risk that you would fail if you dont know how to build around them but you only need lesser players to win with them.[/QUOTE]
Stfu knicksman, you are the dumbest poster on here. You still havent explained why you think drose is a cancer, why bronzy is a low impact star and why bosh is better than pippen.
[QUOTE=red1]Stfu knicksman, you are the dumbest poster on here. You still havent explained why you think drose is a cancer, why bronzy is a low impact star and why bosh is better than pippen.[/QUOTE]
The obvious explanation is that he has the brainpower of a chipmunk.
[QUOTE=RRR3]The obvious explanation is that he has the brainpower of a chipmunk.[/QUOTE]
The kid is so fcuking dumb my goodness