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[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]AND one of THE greatest perimeter defenders / playmakers ever.
Don't mind me, just correcting you. :cheers:[/QUOTE]
The thing is that I never heard that before the Kobe obsessive fanboys started repeating it over and over. I wonder why they kept repeating that.
[QUOTE=jstern]The thing is that I never heard that before the Kobe obsessive fanboys started repeating it over and over. I wonder why they kept repeating that.[/QUOTE]
Wait, what?
[QUOTE=Go Getter]I don't know if I'd build a franchise around him because he wasn't a great shot creator for himself but other than that and his ego issues I can't think of anything to criticize about his game. You could nitpick but really, Pip could do it all and was one of the best perimeter defenders ever.[/QUOTE]
Magic wasnt that great at creating his own shot. Id say he got by. He was great at getting the ball to players who could get their own shot. The key is you bring in players to cover the Franchise players shortcomings. Theres no way you can honestly say the Bulls.wouldnt have won championship in 94 if they had Latrell Sprewell instead of Pete Myers.
Theres no doubt Pippen woukdve won an MVP, in 94 had the Bulls did a better job of replacing Jordan. They wouldve won 62 games and win the Finals
[QUOTE=jstern]The thing is that I never heard that before the Kobe obsessive fanboys started repeating it over and over. I wonder why they kept repeating that.[/QUOTE]
I do. Ne-1 posted that GM survey done in 95 a whike back. Pippen was highly regarded in the NBA. I remember reading an interview with Tex Winter in which he discusses Krause.wanting to trade Pippen for Kemp and Hersey Hawkins. And he said Jackson, himself as well as the rest of the coaches said hed be nuts if he did that trade.
Underrated largely by Jordan fans who did not care for the Bulls as a team and want to diminish him in a way Jordan himself, their teammates, and coaching staff would not.
Perhaps overrated by a few people roughly my age who favor him over any modern swingmen and take it too far.
More often than not though...id say underrated.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Magic wasnt that great at creating his own shot.[/QUOTE]
His unstoppable baby hook was not created by other players for him. Also, does plowing through the entire defense for a layup count as creating your own shot? If so then yes, he actually was that great at creating his own shot.
As for the subject of the thread, I'd say he is rated right where he belongs.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]AND one of THE greatest perimeter defenders / playmakers ever.
Don't mind me, just correcting you. :cheers:[/QUOTE]
Pippen has a youtube highlight reel called 'Ultimate Defender'( you may have seen it). It's just about as enjoyable to watch as any offensive highlight reel. Dude was a crazy defensive force....
[QUOTE=97 bulls]I do. Ne-1 posted that GM survey done in 95 a whike back. Pippen was highly regarded in the NBA. I remember reading an interview with Tex Winter in which he discusses Krause.wanting to trade Pippen for Kemp and Hersey Hawkins. And he said Jackson, himself as well as the rest of the coaches said hed be nuts if he did that trade.[/QUOTE]
I don't deny Pippen's ability and I do think he's underrated, just that the Kobe fans keep exaggerating saying things that I've never heard about Pippen in order to diminish Jordan.
[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]Pippen has a youtube highlight reel called 'Ultimate Defender'( you may have seen it). It's just about as enjoyable to watch as any offensive highlight reel. Dude was a crazy defensive force....[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Part 1 AND 2 are amazing. Scottie33pippen (who posts here as "hitmanyr2k"), also has a "complete player" series. I had forgotten how good Scottie's back to the basket game was. Guy was a VERY good post player.
Incredibly underrated and his legacy will be increasingly eroded and maligned as NBA fans become more stat obsessed with less emphasis on the specificites of the game.
What Pippen brought to the game were aspects that can't be effectively quantified. Amazing on ball defender, weakside helper, versatility both on offense and defense, court vision, etc
There's not many championship team in history of NBA that couldn't have been improved by replacing one of the main pieces with a prime pippen
[QUOTE=Kovach]His unstoppable baby hook was not created by other players for him. Also, does plowing through the entire defense for a layup count as creating your own shot? If so then yes, he actually was that great at creating his own shot.
As for the subject of the thread, I'd say he is rated right where he belongs.[/QUOTE]
Pippen had an extremely effective jumphook as well. And he was much better than Magic at one on one iso type situations.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]And he was much better than Magic at one on one iso type situations.[/QUOTE]
Really? How?
I approve of this post
[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]Da Fuq?...
- and it's 100% true....Pippen had a 5 year stretch of top 2 - 3 player in the NBA...
from 92' - 96' he was always referred as 2nd best allaround player in the League....
- his 92' and 93' seasons were some of the best basketball ever by anyone....his perimeter defense alone was unlike anything I ever seen.
- I would say he is vastly Overrated .....since MJ is so popular, many overlook Pippen....True Fans of basketball that watched him play....understand how valuable he was.
Jordan = .417 winning % without Pippen. ( 5 sub .500 seasons) 1/3rd of his career.....that alone says it all. [B]( not saying MJ wasn't a great player...but Pippen provided all the help he needed to make the Bull's a championship team)[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kovach]Really? How?[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I cant even say that. Magics role on the team wasnt to take people off the dribble. In the event the oppositition got back and the defense was set, the ball went to Jabaar. Then it went to Worthy as Jabaar aged. Ive always maintained theyre about equal when it comes to the ability to score.
[QUOTE=jstern]I don't deny Pippen's ability and I do think he's underrated, just that the Kobe fans keep exaggerating saying things that I've never heard about Pippen in order to diminish Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Thats because people tend to hold players to standard they dont hold others to.
Case and point
[QUOTE] think a little bit of both. The dude gets overlooked because he played with Jordan but at the same time, he was such a great player. Now, do I think he is good enough to STILL, today, be one of the top 50 players of all time? No. He is not a guy like Jordan, Shaq, LeBron, etc who could lead a team to the finals without another star. But he does get overlooked a lot and I feel his defense gets overlooked as well. [/QUOTE]
This is Jbryan1984s post in this thread. He says Jordan and Shaq won without another star. What about Kobe? Rodman? Pippen? And James may have made it to the finals without a top caliber player, but he did so by being in a terrible conference and got swept while playing atrocious.
Magic wasnt a scorer by nature but he could have scored at a rate Pippen never did im sure of that. In 87 when Kareem went down he put up:
34/15
38/16
46/10/9
30/15
28/9
4 points 18 assist(40 point win only played 29 minutes)
32/14 the game Kareem came back for a few moments
Dropped down for a 26 point triple double the next game with Kareem fully back then went back to usual. Scored more than usual even after that but....he didnt just pour it on as he could have.
Magic could do whatever he felt like.
Replace Lebron with Pippen on the 07 Cavs and they don't get past the ECF. No chance at all. Pippen was beast, but he aint carrying that team's offense for a whole 4th quarter and two overtimes.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Magic wasnt a scorer by nature but he could have scored at a rate Pippen never did im sure of that. In 87 when Kareem went down he put up:
34/15
38/16
46/10/9
30/15
28/9
4 points 18 assist(40 point win only played 29 minutes)
32/14 the game Kareem came back for a few moments
Dropped down for a 26 point triple double the next game with Kareem fully back then went back to usual. Scored more than usual even after that but....he didnt just pour it on as he could have.
Magic could do whatever he felt like.[/QUOTE]
Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...
'94 Pippen:
22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
23.2 PER (lets use PER since MJ fans love this statistic)
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him
'85 Magic:
18/6/13/2 on 56%
23.2 PER
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him
Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after '87), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.
Pippen on an 80's run and gun team could've approached those numbers. He averaged 21/8/7 on 51% shooting on the '92 Bulls and that team's pace factor was 94.4, his season 22/9/6/49 FG% season in '94 came on a team with a pace factor of 91.9.
Now if we use '85 for comparison, the Nuggets played at the fastest pace(107.6) and the Showtime Lakers were only the 9th fastest team(103.2).
So a 21-22 ppg, 8-9 rpg, 6-7 apg going from a structured slower paced offensive to a fastbreak team with 10-15 extra possessions to work with.
I don't know if he's either per se.
He has to be considered an all-time great considering he and Jordan split lead playmaking/defensive anchoring duties (Pip more so than MJ though; Jordan was more impactful as an overall individual talent, at least offensively), when these are duties almost exclusively reserved for points and bigs. How many guys arguably assumed both of those roles on championship-level teams? On the other hand, he's been overrated quite a bit due to agendas on this board (I'll leave it at that).
He's up there in the rankings and probably the best defender in league history that wasn't a big (in addition to his duties as a point forward for a good deal of his time in Chicago), but beyond that I'm not going to attempt to place him.
Who's higher on the all-time list, Pippen or Lebron?
[COLOR="white"]lol[/COLOR]
[B]Underrated by Jordan Stans and Overrated by Kobe Stands. He Was The Best SF of the 90s All Around Wise There is No Denying That. Infact, Pippen Is One of the Best All Around and Team Players Ever. The Best Defending Perimeter Player Ever, Solid Scorer, Very Good Rebounder, Great Creator and Assist Man, Great Stealer and Great Versatility for a 6`8 Pointforward.[/B]
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Magic wasnt a scorer by nature but he could have scored at a rate Pippen never did im sure of that. In 87 when Kareem went down he put up:
34/15
38/16
46/10/9
30/15
28/9
4 points 18 assist(40 point win only played 29 minutes)
32/14 the game Kareem came back for a few moments
Dropped down for a 26 point triple double the next game with Kareem fully back then went back to usual. Scored more than usual even after that but....he didnt just pour it on as he could have.
Magic could do whatever he felt like.[/QUOTE]
Magic and Pippen played in two different eras. The league on avg took roughly 5-800 more shots when Magic played in the early to mid 80s when compared to.the 90s. At what point is this fact implemented when statistics are brought up? If Pippen played in the early to mid 80s in his prime, his stats woild be along the lines of 23/9/7 with a high of 25/10/8.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Replace Lebron with Pippen on the 07 Cavs and they don't get past the ECF. No chance at all. Pippen was beast, but he aint carrying that team's offense for a whole 4th quarter and two overtimes.[/QUOTE]
Lol he carried the Bulls in the fourth quarter of game 6 in the NBA finals vs the Blazers. Youre literally saying he couldnt do something that he did. Not to mentione the fact that the Bulls were down by 15 pts. And he shut diwn Drexler. He scored 11 pts in that fourth quarter, WTF?
And I guarantee if Pippen played James role vs the Mavs they wouldve won. Marion and Terry bitch slapped James.
Again you just cant hide the agenda. Even if you tried
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]Incredibly underrated and his legacy will be increasingly eroded and maligned as NBA fans become more stat obsessed with less emphasis on the specificites of the game.
What Pippen brought to the game were aspects that can't be effectively quantified. Amazing on ball defender, weakside helper, versatility both on offense and defense, court vision, etc
There's not many championship team in history of NBA that couldn't have been improved by replacing one of the main pieces with a prime pippen[/QUOTE]
Great post
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Who's higher on the all-time list, Pippen or Lebron?
[COLOR="white"]lol[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Lebron is way higher now. 3 MVP's and a FMVP/title as the #1, with several dominant postseasons and regular seasons? Lebron is in the 12-16 range now at a minimum. Pippen is in the 22-27 range.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol he carried the Bulls in the fourth quarter of game 6 in the NBA finals vs the Blazers. Youre literally saying he couldnt do something that he did. Not to mentione the fact that the Bulls were down by 15 pts. And he shut diwn Drexler. He scored 11 pts in that fourth quarter, WTF?
And I guarantee if Pippen played James role vs the Mavs they wouldve won. Marion and Terry bitch slapped James.
Again you just cant hide the agenda. Even if you tried[/QUOTE]
I think Pippen is underrated. But he doesn't have the ability to carry a team like the 07 Cavs to the Finals. As for 2011, Im not denying that. They could have definitely won with Pippen in his spot. But we all already know what Pippen can do as a sidekick. Im sure he would have no problem being Wade's Robin in that series.
[QUOTE=Ne 1]Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...
'94 Pippen:
22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
23.2 PER (lets use PER since MJ fans love this statistic)
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him
'85 Magic:
18/6/13/2 on 56%
23.2 PER
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him
Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after '87), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.
Pippen on an 80's run and gun team could've approached those numbers. He averaged 21/8/7 on 51% shooting on the '92 Bulls and that team's pace factor was 94.4, his season 22/9/6/49 FG% season in '94 came on a team with a pace factor of 91.9.
Now if we use '85 for comparison, the Nuggets played at the fastest pace(107.6) and the Showtime Lakers were only the 9th fastest team(103.2).
So a 21-22 ppg, 8-9 rpg, 6-7 apg going from a structured slower paced offensive to a fastbreak team with 10-15 extra possessions to work with.[/QUOTE]
Preach brotha.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]I think Pippen is underrated. But he doesn't have the ability to carry a team like the 07 Cavs to the Finals. As for 2011, Im not denying that. They could have definitely won with Pippen in his spot. But we all already know what Pippen can do as a sidekick. Im sure he would have no problem being Wade's Robin in that series.[/QUOTE]
Call it what you want. Im just responding to your assumption that Pippen couldnt close games. Why didnt Wade go and defend Berea or Terry? People just dont understand the effort it takes to play defense at a high level. If Wade had to chase either if those two, I guarantee his offense wouldve been effected.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Call it what you want. Im just responding to your assumption that Pippen couldnt close games. Why didnt Wade go and defend Berea or Terry?[/QUOTE]
I think because they were relying on him more for scoring and didn't want to tire him out chasing those guys around screens
A thread that went nearly 30 pages because he was called "2nd most overrated on ISH":
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135476[/url]
I think I can see why he's overrated and underrated, but it comes down to who your asking at times. I've seen people overrate and underrate Pippen, I think he's ranked just right.
Also, let's put actual arbitrary rankings into play:
If he's ranked Top 15-20 range, considered overrated ?
If he's ranked Top 25-30, rated correctly ?
If he's ranked Top 35-40 range, considered underrated ?
I think he's underrated when compared with McHale, Worthy, and those types of guys. Those guys never got the label of a "sidekick" or second fiddle. But then again, Jordan was that damn good that he changed the way people look at the game.
It's also a fact that Pippen was the best SF of his generation (the 90's), yet that fact never gets any recognition.
[QUOTE=DMV2]I think he's underrated when compared with McHale, Worthy, and those types of guys. [/QUOTE]
Pippen was not appreciably better (if at all) than McHale prime vs. prime. He was better than Worthy, however.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]I think because they were relying on him more for scoring and didn't want to tire him out chasing those guys around screens[/QUOTE]
Well, Pippen had to do it. And run the offense as well as score. That game vs the Lakers when he defended Magic, he scored 20 pts, had 10 rbds, and 5 asts. Magic shot 31% from the field and had 4 TOs. And was visibly flustered. He literally had a hard time getting past half court. And that was with 10 seconds. Just think if he had only 8 seconds to get past half court.
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]That depends on exactly where that is. Definitely top 50 all-time, imo, and in the conversation as the best perimeter defender ever.
High bb IQ, great intangibles, willing to do the dirty work, didn't need the ball to be effective...
His two downfall areas were his deficiencies on offense, and that he's a beta, rather than an alpha.[/QUOTE]
Nah he's definitely an alpha. He and MJ clashed. Common misconception, two alpha players can't coexist and win. It happens on nearly EVERY TEAM. What other player would Pippen have deferred to. Anyway, the ball was in his hands a lot, too. It's not like he was a role player.
Over/under... depends on who you ask. I'd definitely want him on my all-time team... no matter who I already had.
-Smak
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Pippen was not appreciably better (if at all) than McHale prime vs. prime. He was better than Worthy, however.[/QUOTE]
Who would you pick between Pippen and Mchale?
[QUOTE=ILLsmak]Nah he's definitely an alpha. He and MJ clashed. Common misconception, two alpha players can't coexist and win. It happens on nearly EVERY TEAM. What other player would Pippen have deferred to. Anyway, the ball was in his hands a lot, too. It's not like he was a role player.
Over/under... depends on who you ask. I'd definitely want him on my all-time team... no matter who I already had.
-Smak[/QUOTE]
Its funny. People act as if he was a bad offensive player. Theres about 450 players in the NBA. He was no worse than top 15 every year. Top 10 when Jordan left. I believe he was seventh in 94
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Who would you pick between Pippen and Mchale?[/QUOTE]
That would probably depend on who my first option is.
In today's league, it probably favours Pippen than McHale, but McHale as a 2nd-3rd option would win a title.
[QUOTE=ILLsmak]Nah he's definitely an alpha. He and MJ clashed. Common misconception, two alpha players can't coexist and win. It happens on nearly EVERY TEAM. What other player would Pippen have deferred to. Anyway, the ball was in his hands a lot, too. It's not like he was a role player.
Over/under... depends on who you ask. I'd definitely want him on my all-time team... no matter who I already had.
-Smak[/QUOTE]
Incorrect. True Alphas never defer, unless they are too young or too old. Example is Kobe/Shaq. It worked in the beginning because Kobe was still too young. We all know what happened by 2004 though.
Also look at Miami year 1. Wade and Lebron were 2 Alphas, and their games got in the way of each other. It wasn't until last year when Wade started to decline that he deferred to Lebron.
Ridiculously Overrated by: Smoke117, 97 bulls, Roundball_Rock, Fatal9, and a ton of Kobe stans w/ an agenda. Everywhere else beyond ISH, and those posters with an agenda, he's quite underrated.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Who would you pick between Pippen and Mchale?[/QUOTE]
They're about equal in terms of impact. Different, but roughly equal. McHale brought insane scoring and efficiency in the post and good man defense and great team defense and shotblocking.