Tyreke and Blake Griffin

[QUOTE=ncrizzle]What position are the kings even playing tyreke? He came in as a PG and i know he has played sg and sf as well. He will probably never have the stats of his rookie year, but injuries and switching positions definitely wont help[/QUOTE]

If you went to a Clippers/Kings game and told somebody that two guys had the best rookies years in recent memory (20/5/5 and 22/12 something Magic and the 4 best powerforwards didn't do respectively) and only within the past 4 years, it would be confusing to no end. Cousins? Isiah?

Blake probably is a better player but he's got to start getting back to domination mode. I for one never believe, a third best player is dominant - 90% of the time they are sophisticated role players. Everybody has dominant minutes but until dominant games are on the regular - you can't say a player is dominant. Better is only worth something if it is used. And we've seen players (Kareem), lose their taste for rebounding.

Aggression is more than half the story.

Check this and think about it:
Faried, isn't the same player as Blake. Blake is a better player, better skills, more polished, better offensively, better at most things. Faried is the more aggressive player. Faried wins more games for his team - primarily because his niche for rebounding is really needed and he knows his limitations extremely well. Faried outplayed Blake in their last game and Faried is more likely to influence the outcome of the games, primarily because of the way they are used. H2H doesn't mean a lot but Faried still is the player that is more likely to have an explosive game in general and is even more consistent in what you can expect from him. Better without manifestions of being better is most of the time a useless concept.

So I'm not a big fan of Blake's a better player this year while having relatively few outstanding games. Its similar to saying he's better for a few minutes per game - just not the whole game. Excellent players have excellent games. Blake needs to have better games.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]Tony parker begs to differ.

Nobody is trying to say blake is better than prime KG. Timmy D is a top 3 big this year but that has no bearing on how well BG has been playing. Both guys are having great years.[/QUOTE]

You know Tony Parker isn't on the level of CP3 in relation as a set up guard.

BG should be better than KG and TD in the hustle aspect of the game (defense and rebounding), and you know he isn't. These guys are five or six years off of their prime and 13 years his senior. Blake's rookie year (points and rebs wise) was like an average year in KG and TD's prime. Three years later TD, is 36 and amazingly has a clear advantage in output. That isn't the way progress looks.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]You know Tony Parker isn't on the level of CP3 in relation as a set up guard.

BG should be better than KG and TD in the hustle aspect of the game (defense and rebounding), and you know he isn't. These guys are five or six years off of their prime and 13 years his senior. Blake's rookie year (points and rebs wise) was like an average year in KG and TD's prime. Three years later TD, is 36 and amazingly has a clear advantage in output. That isn't the way progress looks.[/QUOTE]

you keep throwing out these hard stat's as proof one guy played better than another. So many things influence a guy's statline. Just watching the games Blake is so much better than he was in his rookie year. If anything you are overrating him by his inflated rookie year stats

Drop the stats. The Clippers are 37 and 17 and in first place. The Kings are 19 and 33. So Blake is doing fine and Tyreke is not.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]"Over his past 15 games, Griffin has averaged 4.9 assists, which ranks first among power forwards and centers."

This is astounding for a 3rd year PF who's considered raw and lacking in skills. Dude has the potential to be Barkley like in his prime. Last PF I saw this a passing game this good, this young was Chris Webber.[/QUOTE]

I can't even describe how ridiculous it is to compare him to Barkley

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]you keep throwing out these hard stat's as proof one guy played better than another. So many things influence a guy's statline. Just watching the games Blake is so much better than he was in his rookie year. If anything you are overrating him by his inflated rookie year stats[/QUOTE]
Well name me a great power forward that's 18 and 8?

I was talking about defense and rebounding and you know we don't need stats to see that he's not as good as KG and TD in those categories. Are you seriously trying to tell me he ripping up the league in rebounds? That's he going to get on the all defensive team.

Screw the stats, this is my third time saying that. Its obvious that when he was aggressive teams feared him. Lamar Odom is an example of a player that is cleary better than he was 8 years ago. But without the aggression who cares? Its a mute point. He could change the landscape of his team 8 years ago. Right now, for moments in a game he's all world. But does he have great games now? All I'm asking for are a lot of good games or a good number of great games. This Blake is better but he just doesn't have great games anymore... .

his rebounding numbers are a reflection of his minutes played. he and cp3 sit on the bench more than any superstars in the league.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Well name me a great power forward that's 18 and 8?

I was talking about defense and rebounding and you know we don't need stats to see that he's not as good as KG and TD in those categories. Are you seriously trying to tell me he ripping up the league in rebounds? That's he going to get on the all defensive team.

Screw the stats, this is my third time saying that. Its obvious that when he was aggressive teams feared him. Lamar Odom is an example of a player that is cleary better than he was 8 years ago. But without the aggression who cares? Its a mute point. He could change the landscape of his team 8 years ago. Right now, for moments in a game he's all world. But does he have great games now? All I'm asking for are a lot of good games or a good number of great games. This Blake is better but he just doesn't have great games anymore... .[/QUOTE]
Blake is averaging 20.4 9.5 4 1.6 0.7 per 36 57 ts while leading the Clippers to a top 5 defense. He`s a more impactful player now

[QUOTE=Ikill]Blake is averaging 20.4 9.5 4 1.6 0.7 per 36 57 ts while leading the Clippers to a top 5 defense. He`s a more impactful player now[/QUOTE]


Yup. 20.5 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 spg with much much better defense and even efficiency. Hell his free throw shooting continues to climb near 70 percent. We saw that Blake could easily put up monster numbers still when Paul was recently out with injury.

Well I hope BG pulls it together. When Rose went out, we really missed him. So we need more stars and I think BG could be one of the brightest. I want to root for Tyreke but he has to be on another team. He too can be very exciting.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Yup. 20.5 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 spg with much much better defense and even efficiency. Hell his free throw shooting continues to climb near 70 percent. We saw that Blake could easily put up monster numbers still when Paul was recently out with injury.[/QUOTE]
He's on his way to fixing all of his major problems he had in his rookie in 3 years (defense free throw shooting jumper). Pointgaurd is right that he doesn't hustle as much for rebounds but that might be why he is better because he has more energy for defense. I would easily take the improved defense over an extra 1-2 rebounds.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Well name me a great power forward that's 18 and 8?

I was talking about defense and rebounding and you know we don't need stats to see that he's not as good as KG and TD in those categories. Are you seriously trying to tell me he ripping up the league in rebounds? That's he going to get on the all defensive team.

Screw the stats, this is my third time saying that. Its obvious that when he was aggressive teams feared him. Lamar Odom is an example of a player that is cleary better than he was 8 years ago. But without the aggression who cares? Its a mute point. He could change the landscape of his team 8 years ago. Right now, for moments in a game he's all world. But does he have great games now? All I'm asking for are a lot of good games or a good number of great games. This Blake is better but he just doesn't have great games anymore... .[/QUOTE]

I don't think blake is better than Timmy D and KG's D probably gives him an edge over BG too. But these guys are two of the greatest players to every play the game and Blake's only in his third year. He's a great player, a legitimate allstar, and has improved each year in the league

Blake's numbers don't jump off the page as much, but he is a considerably better overall player. He has evolved.
His game is more well-rounded and less out-of-control. He is wiser now.

[QUOTE=Ikill]He's on his way to fixing all of his major problems he had in his rookie in 3 years (defense free throw shooting jumper). Pointgaurd is right that he doesn't hustle as much for rebounds but that might be why he is better because he has more energy for defense. I would easily take the improved defense over an extra 1-2 rebounds.[/QUOTE]

Spot on. You always do know your Blake Griffin/Clippers stuff :cheers: .

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Oh, so he's more aggressive? He rebounds better? They were worrying about his conditioning his rookie year? He doubts himself now? His presence is no where near what it was his rookie year. Did I miss every good game? Wow, he's more efficient and picks his spots but when he's not aggressive he's overthinking everything.

Please show me another player who came in at 22.5 and 12.5 and looks like Blake two years later. Please, just name me one. He came in with one of the best rookie campaigns from a modern day PF, it was like TD's. When he's aggressive people say he's the same athlete as Lebron. Right now, that seems like some cruel joke. His assertiveness is like a role players. 18 and 8.5??? He was one of the few that had the promise of a post game. 8.5rebs is garbage. I guess yall would know best but trust me, he was feared at one point. I just don't see him getting 30 and 15 I fully expect that from Kevin Love I expect 15 and 8 from Blake - the guy who came in dominant.[/QUOTE]


I have not read any of the responses past the post above, but I am sure they go along the same kind of reasoning as I am about to list :

His presence is no where near his rookie season? You do realise they won what....... 32 games that season? What great presence that was. Yes, we understand there are many other factors, but the main point is you are the epitome of someone who focuses too much on the box score.

For someone like you, you see decreased stats. For everyone else so far in this thread, we see someone who's minutes decreased from 38 to 32.5 because they have been blowing out teams. A big reason for that is the maturity and improvement in Blakes game. What we also see is the Clippers are on pace for a top three seed this season, versus... 32 games TOTAL when he posted those ridiculous "stats" you mentioned.

:facepalm

If Tyreke played for a proper coach, giving him proper mins and a team with floor spacing he would be back to averging his rookie season numbers, hes overall improved as a player and the guys defense is above average.

[QUOTE=Kellogs4toniee]I have not read any of the responses past the post above, but I am sure they go along the same kind of reasoning as I am about to list :

His presence is no where near his rookie season? You do realise they won what....... 32 games that season? What great presence that was. Yes, we understand there are many other factors, but the main point is you are the epitome of someone who focuses too much on the box score.

For someone like you, you see decreased stats. For everyone else so far in this thread, we see someone who's minutes decreased from 38 to 32.5 because they have been blowing out teams. A big reason for that is the maturity and improvement in Blakes game. What we also see is the Clippers are on pace for a top three seed this season, versus... 32 games TOTAL when he posted those ridiculous "stats" you mentioned.

:facepalm[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the folks who read my other post. I was going to let it go but I hate the facepalm emoticon.



Blake doesn't rebound on a team that needs it. No Boxscore.

His guards are among the best in the league which open things up. No Boxscore.

He has has the best set up guard in the league - lob city. He should be better. No Boxscore.

He isn't as aggressive despite playing less minutes. No Boxscore.

He has declined in scoring and rebounding in the per 36 minutes played - your excuse above does not apply. Chris Paul will likely lead the league in two categories same minutes played as Blake. Larry Sanders leads the league in blocks while playing 7 less minutes than Blake. Jamal Crawford will win 6th man of the year. DH leads the league in rebounding and he's playing only 2 more minutes per game... .

Manimal is a better rebounder, despite player 3 less minutes and is a game changer - Denver might catch the Clippers as they had a tougher schedule to this point.

Blake turns the ball over more and commits more fouls per 36 than 2 years ago.

His FT% is a tiny bit better but it should be better.

He had a better touch from 3 in his rookie year. No Boxscore.

He had a lot of very good games in his rookie year. He rarely has one now. No Boxscore

Most great players had to play less minutes - its just an excuse. No Boxscore

And he's not making any all team defenses. No bosxcore

Lamar Odom is a better player than he was six years ago but he doesn't have the aggression to implement it. If Wade doesn't attack the basket his game if vastly inferior no matter how he fine tunes other things. Figure it out. No Boxscore

By nature you grow, knowing the game better you automatically are suppose to be sharper. But you have to blend that in with aggression. No Boxscore

Great players have great games. Players operate in the context of the game. Players usually have some manifest of improvement. He doesn't show much of that at all. Several of you have said defense and I'll go along with that despite seeing several blown assignments against the Knicks. He may fit in better but that is something we say about role players. No boxscore.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Sorry for the folks who read my other post. I was going to let it go but I hate the facepalm emoticon.



Blake doesn't rebound on a team that needs it. No Boxscore.

His guards are among the best in the league which open things up. No Boxscore.

He has has the best set up guard in the league - lob city. He should be better. No Boxscore.

He isn't as aggressive despite playing less minutes. No Boxscore.

He has declined in scoring and rebounding in the per 36 minutes played - your excuse above does not apply. Chris Paul will likely lead the league in two categories same minutes played as Blake. Larry Sanders leads the league in blocks while playing 7 less minutes than Blake. Jamal Crawford will win 6th man of the year. DH leads the league in rebounding and he's playing only 2 more minutes per game... .

Manimal is a better rebounder, despite player 3 less minutes and is a game changer - Denver might catch the Clippers as they had a tougher schedule to this point.

Blake turns the ball over more and commits more fouls per 36 than 2 years ago.

His FT% is a tiny bit better but it should be better.

He had a better touch from 3 in his rookie year. No Boxscore.

He had a lot of very good games in his rookie year. He rarely has one now. No Boxscore

Most great players had to play less minutes - its just an excuse. No Boxscore

And he's not making any all team defenses. No bosxcore

Lamar Odom is a better player than he was six years ago but he doesn't have the aggression to implement it. If Wade doesn't attack the basket his game if vastly inferior no matter how he fine tunes other things. Figure it out. No Boxscore

By nature you grow, knowing the game better you automatically are suppose to be sharper. But you have to blend that in with aggression. No Boxscore

Great players have great games. Players operate in the context of the game. Players usually have some manifest of improvement. He doesn't show much of that at all. Several of you have said defense and I'll go along with that despite seeing several blown assignments against the Knicks. He may fit in better but that is something we say about role players. No boxscore.[/QUOTE]

I was trying to reason with you.. but since you want to boxscore watch I guess I'm going to have to educate you a bit more. I don't think you understand what playing 6 minutes less per game on a MUCH more talented team does to numbers. Nonetheless I'll post some great games he's had. For the first month or so of the season he was banged up with a few injuries but after that he really picked it up.


Nov 17th vs the Bulls: 26 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and a block in only 33 minutes of play.


Dec 3rd vs the Jazz: 30 points, 11 rebounds, 1 steal in 37 minutes of play.


Dec 8th vs the Suns: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, [B]4 steals[/B], 1 block in only [B]29 minutes.[/B]


Dec 23rd vs the Suns: 23 points, 11 rebounds, 3 assists,[B] 4 steals[/B], 1 block in 31 minutes.


Jan 4th vs the Lakers: 24 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal in only [B]29 minutes. [/B]


Jan 5th vs the Warriors: 20 points, 5 rebounds, [B]7 assists, 3 steals[/B] in just 30 minutes.


Jan 12th vs the Magic: [B]30 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists[/B], 1 block in 35 minutes.


Jan 21st vs the Warriors: 26 points, 13 rebounds,[B] 8 assists, 3 steals[/B], 1 block in 41 minutes.


Jan 22nd vs the Thunder:[B] 31 points[/B], 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals and a block in 36 minutes.


Jan 26th vs the Blazers: 24 points, 8 rebounds, [B]10 assists, 4 steals[/B] in 38 minutes.


Jan 27th vs the Blazers: 23 points, 6 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals in just [B]28 minutes. [/B]


Jan 30th vs the Wolves: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 3 steals in 36 minutes.


Feb 3rd vs the Celtics: 20 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists in 36 minutes.


Feb 11th vs the Sixers: 20 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal in just [B]28 minutes.[/B]



Notice anything? Sure not as many 30 point games but way more balance with big steals numbers and all around stats in LESS minutes. To get those 30+ point games often his rookie year Blake was logging over 38 minutes a game, 7th most in the NBA if I recall. Now that we got that out of the way let me pick apart your other points.


1. Blake does rebound and his PER 36 rebound rate is over 10 which is fine for a PF playing on a team with guys like Odom and DJ who have very good rebound rates. Not to mention Turiaf and Hollins are good per minute rebounders this year.


2. His guards are among the best and all of them are ball dominant guards who either A. take a lot of shots or B. handle the ball a ton. When Billups and CP3 were both out Blake put up better stats than ever before in his career for about a two week stretch.


3. Chris Paul is FAR from the best set up guard in terms of lobs. Baron Davis threw him twice the lobs and Chris Paul often is afraid to throw lobs for fear of a turnover. He CONSTANTLY misses Blake on the spin lob.


4. Blake's motor is still high but as he's matured he's learned to tone it down. Not to mention his rookie year he put ZERO energy into defense, now he puts nearly as much into it as offense so not sure what the aggression comment is based on besides you watching him maybe 5 times.


5. This comment about him fouling more often is actually in direct contradiction to your previous comment that his aggression is down. The reason his fouls are up is because he actually plays good defense now and is MORE aggressive. Who would have thought :hammerhead: .


6. FT shooting is actually significantly better. Again I can tell you're boxscore watching because you're looking at total percentage rather than the deeper story here. Beyond that a jump of over 1 percent and climbing is worth noting and still counts. He shot 70 percent in January for the entire month and has been very reliable from the line lately compared to previous seasons.


7. You really wanted to bring up 3 point shooting bro? He's pretty much only ever attempted 3's as a bailout with the clock expiring. Anything he hits or misses has primarily been luck because that's not a shot he normally takes. Sample size is too small and even if he is somehow a worse three point shooter, it doesn't matter for a PF who never attempts them. What's more important is he's become a decently reliable MIDRANGE shooter.


8. No superstars or perennial all stars in the NBA that aren't old play less minutes than Griffin or CP3. EVERYBODY else plays heavier minutes than these two and every top 15 player in the NBA regularly hits 38+ minutes, these guys rarely do. So no the reduced minutes isn't an excuse, it's a fact.


9. So because he's not going to get elected to an all NBA defensive team this year it means his defensive improvement is negligible? Bro I don't think you understand he's not just marginally better defensively. He's went from atrocious, invisible defender to "very solid" or "good" one in just two seasons.


If you need any other education on Clippers players let me know. The only thing I ask is PLEASE don't base such strong opinions on your limited viewing and then right paragraphs ripping a player with false shit.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]
1. Blake does rebound and his PER 36 rebound rate is over 10 which is fine for a PF playing on a team with guys like Odom and DJ who have very good rebound rates. Not to mention Turiaf and Hollins are good per minute rebounders this year.
[/quote]
He's 39th in the league in rebounds per 48 minutes. 21 overall. Its not ok.

[quote]
3. Chris Paul is FAR from the best set up guard in terms of lobs. Baron Davis threw him twice the lobs and Chris Paul often is afraid to throw lobs for fear of a turnover. He CONSTANTLY misses Blake on the spin lob.
[/quote]
Haha, lob shiddy. But he's Chris Paul dammit. Best passing game controlling pg.

[quote]
4. Blake's motor is still high but as he's matured he's learned to tone it down. Not to mention his rookie year he put ZERO energy into defense, now he puts nearly as much into it as offense so not sure what the aggression comment is based on besides you watching him maybe 5 times. [/quote]
I never argued against this.

[quote]
5. This comment about him fouling more often is actually in direct contradiction to your previous comment that his aggression is down. The reason his fouls are up is because he actually plays good defense now and is MORE aggressive. Who would have thought :hammerhead: .[/quote]

Haha, I brought that up because you two were acting like he was Einstein now and had an all knowing eye after he evolved from his cave man activities in his rookie year. On the real his rookie year he got those fouls trying to dunk people into the hoop. So he was being aggressive. Now he amazingly fouls himself and flops when point guards hollar at him - ok that was a joke. I never had a problem with his defense being better.

[quote]
6. FT shooting is actually significantly better. Again I can tell you're boxscore watching because you're looking at total percentage rather than the deeper story here. Beyond that a jump of over 1 percent and climbing is worth noting and still counts. He shot 70 percent in January for the entire month and has been [B]very reliabl[/B]e from the line lately compared to previous seasons. [/quote]

HE'S SHOOTING 65% IN Feb!

[quote]
8. No superstars or perennial all stars in the NBA that aren't old play less minutes than Griffin or CP3. EVERYBODY else plays heavier minutes than these two and every top 15 player in the NBA regularly hits 38+ minutes, these guys rarely do. So no the reduced minutes isn't an excuse, it's a fact.
[/quote]
Blake came in the league with superstar written all on him and on the fence of being there. There are usually only 7 Superstars, at most, in the league. Its never going to be an 18 and 8 guy that is arguably the third best player on his team. Crawford has more impact on that team and he isn't a superstar.

[quote]
If you need any other education on Clippers players let me know. The only thing I ask is PLEASE don't base such strong opinions on your limited viewing and then right paragraphs ripping a player with false shit.[/QUOTE]

I was being nice. Trust me, really nice. But you getting a little carried away with it. I said I was learning the finer things about Blake, not the bigger things about Blake. In the many responses here you guys haven't advanced the argument beyond that he's better defensively and his middle game is better. BUT, he obviously is in a [B]diminished role[/B] with[B] less production[/B]. The SUPER STAR tendency is to grow in responsibility, role, impact and production. He's in reverse. He's growing in his diminished role because nature demands it. He's not maturing toward his superstar potential. You guys here just have low expectations and are ok with small regular player increments.

You are on a cloud if you think he's a superstar.

The guy came into the league more impressively than Barkley. Blake came into the league much more impressive than an older Karl Malone was when he came into the league. A younger KG wasn't really good at anything, but by the time he was BG;s age, he already is one of the most versatile players in the game ever, some of that was natural progression. Charles Barkley two years after coming into the league is a straight up Superstar. In two years Karl Malone is an all out Beast that knows and USES all of his strengths. The distance those guys covered in two years is light years above what Blake has accomplished. They matured into their superstar potential.

Faried, is a much more limited player role player that came in with much lower expectations. His improvements are obvious from year one to year two. I saw him have more impact in a game than Blake based solely on his aggression. Faried's team won that game and Faried was a big reason why. It didn't surprise anybody here because they kind of expect it.

Blake came in blazing now he's a controllable fire.

Blake came in blazing on a team that won 32 games (only won that much because of a dominant January) and he was unknown to opposing teams. It's common sense that teams after 2.5 years will learn how to defend him more efficiently. That being said his minutes adjusted numbers aren't far off his previous years and his actual skill set is significantly better. Once we shed the dead weight of ball hogs like Butler and Blake continues developing watch his game take off. 2.5 seasons isn't enough to throw in the towel on a big man who's been a deserving all star every single year.

Bro did you just say Crawford's impact>Griffin's? If so I don't even need to argue with you, you've already failed and everybody even non Clippers fans would laugh at this.

[QUOTE=Darius]hah funny to watch that video.

The main thing that came to mind watching it was:

"No one in that game any idea how to guard Griffin."

People severely underestimate how much it inhibits players once teams start game planning for them. If teams still played Griffin in that clueless way he'd be dropping 30 a night.

Players improve but defenses improve with them so sometimes it looks like they are less effective stats-wise but they are putting more and more pressure on the defense.

I think Griffin is especially affected by this bc of the spectacular nature of his game. Guys are hyper-aware of him because they don't want to get embarrassed.[/QUOTE]


:applause:

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]I was trying to reason with you.. but since you want to boxscore watch I guess I'm going to have to educate you a bit more. I don't think you understand what playing 6 minutes less per game on a MUCH more talented team does to numbers. Nonetheless I'll post some great games he's had. For the first month or so of the season he was banged up with a few injuries but after that he really picked it up.


Nov 17th vs the Bulls: 26 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and a block in only 33 minutes of play.


Dec 3rd vs the Jazz: 30 points, 11 rebounds, 1 steal in 37 minutes of play.


Dec 8th vs the Suns: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, [B]4 steals[/B], 1 block in only [B]29 minutes.[/B]


Dec 23rd vs the Suns: 23 points, 11 rebounds, 3 assists,[B] 4 steals[/B], 1 block in 31 minutes.


Jan 4th vs the Lakers: 24 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal in only [B]29 minutes. [/B]


Jan 5th vs the Warriors: 20 points, 5 rebounds, [B]7 assists, 3 steals[/B] in just 30 minutes.


Jan 12th vs the Magic: [B]30 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists[/B], 1 block in 35 minutes.


Jan 21st vs the Warriors: 26 points, 13 rebounds,[B] 8 assists, 3 steals[/B], 1 block in 41 minutes.


Jan 22nd vs the Thunder:[B] 31 points[/B], 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals and a block in 36 minutes.


Jan 26th vs the Blazers: 24 points, 8 rebounds, [B]10 assists, 4 steals[/B] in 38 minutes.


Jan 27th vs the Blazers: 23 points, 6 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals in just [B]28 minutes. [/B]


Jan 30th vs the Wolves: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 3 steals in 36 minutes.


Feb 3rd vs the Celtics: 20 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists in 36 minutes.


Feb 11th vs the Sixers: 20 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal in just [B]28 minutes.[/B]



Notice anything? Sure not as many 30 point games but way more balance with big steals numbers and all around stats in LESS minutes. To get those 30+ point games often his rookie year Blake was logging over 38 minutes a game, 7th most in the NBA if I recall. Now that we got that out of the way let me pick apart your other points.


1. Blake does rebound and his PER 36 rebound rate is over 10 which is fine for a PF playing on a team with guys like Odom and DJ who have very good rebound rates. Not to mention Turiaf and Hollins are good per minute rebounders this year.


2. His guards are among the best and all of them are ball dominant guards who either A. take a lot of shots or B. handle the ball a ton. When Billups and CP3 were both out Blake put up better stats than ever before in his career for about a two week stretch.


3. Chris Paul is FAR from the best set up guard in terms of lobs. Baron Davis threw him twice the lobs and Chris Paul often is afraid to throw lobs for fear of a turnover. He CONSTANTLY misses Blake on the spin lob.


4. Blake's motor is still high but as he's matured he's learned to tone it down. Not to mention his rookie year he put ZERO energy into defense, now he puts nearly as much into it as offense so not sure what the aggression comment is based on besides you watching him maybe 5 times.


5. This comment about him fouling more often is actually in direct contradiction to your previous comment that his aggression is down. The reason his fouls are up is because he actually plays good defense now and is MORE aggressive. Who would have thought :hammerhead: .


6. FT shooting is actually significantly better. Again I can tell you're boxscore watching because you're looking at total percentage rather than the deeper story here. Beyond that a jump of over 1 percent and climbing is worth noting and still counts. He shot 70 percent in January for the entire month and has been very reliable from the line lately compared to previous seasons.


7. You really wanted to bring up 3 point shooting bro? He's pretty much only ever attempted 3's as a bailout with the clock expiring. Anything he hits or misses has primarily been luck because that's not a shot he normally takes. Sample size is too small and even if he is somehow a worse three point shooter, it doesn't matter for a PF who never attempts them. What's more important is he's become a decently reliable MIDRANGE shooter.


8. No superstars or perennial all stars in the NBA that aren't old play less minutes than Griffin or CP3. EVERYBODY else plays heavier minutes than these two and every top 15 player in the NBA regularly hits 38+ minutes, these guys rarely do. So no the reduced minutes isn't an excuse, it's a fact.


9. So because he's not going to get elected to an all NBA defensive team this year it means his defensive improvement is negligible? Bro I don't think you understand he's not just marginally better defensively. He's went from atrocious, invisible defender to "very solid" or "good" one in just two seasons.


If you need any other education on Clippers players let me know. The only thing I ask is PLEASE don't base such strong opinions on your limited viewing and then right paragraphs ripping a player with false shit.[/QUOTE]
good post

Very solid comparison, I did not pay much attention to Tyreke before but now I am astonished at the similarity between him and Blake Griffin. Both have been declining rapidly after peaking at their rookie seasons. Blake Griffin is fast declining at a rate of 2ppg, 2rpg each season, Tyreke is more unpredictable though.

[QUOTE=The Nets]Very solid comparison, I did not pay much attention to Tyreke before but now I am astonished at the similarity between him and Blake Griffin. Both have been declining rapidly after peaking at their rookie seasons. Blake Griffin is fast declining at a rate of 2ppg, 2rpg each season, Tyreke is more unpredictable though.[/QUOTE]

OH NO IN 4 YEARS HE'LL SCORE 10 POINTS AND 0 REBOUNDS! In 15 minutes:roll:

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Blake came in blazing on a team that won 32 games (only won that much because of a dominant January) and he was unknown to opposing teams. It's common sense that teams after 2.5 years will learn how to defend him more efficiently. [/quote]
While scouting reports figure a player out, the stars spend their first three years getting and improving on the previous year. Non stars fade back. Dwight wasn't that polished his second and third year but he improved and got more productive each year.
[quote]
That being said his minutes adjusted numbers aren't far off his previous years and his actual skill set is significantly better. Once we shed the dead weight of ball hogs like Butler and Blake continues developing watch his game take off. 2.5 seasons isn't enough to throw in the towel on a big man who's been a deserving all star every single year. [/quote]


Blake is exciting and he's got on the allstar team on that bases and injuries this year.

[B]Duncan[/B] and [B]David Lee[/B] do everything better than Blake and more ingrained to their teams.

If [B]Dirk [/B]was healthy he too would be ahead of Blake. As would a healthy [B]Kevin Love[/B] who is way more active and means more to his team's success.

Those on the same level:

A healthy [B]Gasol[/B] is usually a more productive player and is definitely more polished which is what you call better. He's a better offensive player overall, post player, rebounder and defensive player,

[B]Aldridge [/B]does everything well and is a better post defender

[B]Zach Randolph[/B] is in the argument.

I will say an aggressive Blake has the potential to be better than all of them but as of now, his exciting play from his rookie year is getting him in favor.

Dirk's putting up 14 and 6 this year.. healthy or not he's declining and has no case. Duncan is a center first off, second off he did play well enough to get in but he isn't as much better than Griffin as you're making it seem. 17/10/3/3 vs 18.5, 8.5, 3.5,1.5.

Spurs and Clippers both have a top 3 record in the league. David Lee is NOT better than Blake Griffin and has a much lower impact. He's got nicer offensive numbers than Blake but he's a pretty terrible defender, plays more minutes and plays on a far worse team. Aldridge is on a team that's barely hanging onto the 8 seed and again isn't a better individual player than Blake despite more minutes and a bigger role giving him better stats. Love may be better but didn't play hardly at all this year, so it's idiotic to play the what if game. Zbo has zero case over Blake this year or any year of Blake's career.

Basically Blake is the 2nd best all around PF in the league after a healthy Love. Couple guys have a little better stats but on a per minute basis, efficiency factored and minutes factored Blake is a cream of the crop PF this year. Next year he's going to be even better. Blake Griffin is no doubt the most exciting and all star games are all about this and popularity but he's deserving nonetheless.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Dirk's putting up 14 and 6 this year.. healthy or not he's declining and has no case. Duncan is a center first off, second off he did play well enough to get in but he isn't as much better than Griffin as you're making it seem. 17/10/3/3 vs 18.5, 8.5, 3.5,1.5. [/quote]

You know full well Duncan knows the game and plays it on a whole different level.
[quote]
Spurs and Clippers both have a top 3 record in the league. David Lee is NOT better than Blake Griffin and has a much lower impact. He's got nicer offensive numbers than Blake but he's a pretty terrible defender, plays more minutes and plays on a far worse team. Aldridge is on a team that's barely hanging onto the 8 seed and again isn't a better individual player than Blake despite more minutes and a bigger role giving him better stats. Love may be better but didn't play hardly at all this year, [B]so it's idiotic to play the what if game.[/B] Zbo has zero case over Blake this year or any year of Blake's career.
[/quote]

Its not idiotic if you know how to read.

David Lee's team was right there with the Clippers before Bogut joined the team. And he was their only consistent player and their best player. His teammates are categorically WAAAAY worse in every position than the Clippers. So Lee really carried a team that was only like three games behind the Clippers.


Blake, simply put, is not where he should be. If he was a bad player I would simply say well - he's better. But since he a man of great potential its better to measure him with a higher bar - more responsibilities, bigger role, more production, bigger impact - almost none of that applies! Come on now!

The guy is the second most impressive athlete in the game. He rebounded like a top three guy in his first year. He looked like he was capable of being the premier post up guy in the league. Top rookie campaign for a PF. He should be a top 3 player and most definitely can be. As of right now he's definitely not top 10.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]You know full well Duncan knows the game and plays it on a whole different level.


Its not idiotic if you know how to read.

David Lee's team was right there with the Clippers before Bogut joined the team. And he was their only consistent player and their best player. His teammates are categorically WAAAAY worse in every position than the Clippers. So Lee really carried a team that was only like three games behind the Clippers.


Blake, simply put, is not where he should be. If he was a bad player I would simply say well - he's better. But since he a man of great potential its better to measure him with a higher bar - more responsibilities, bigger role, more production, bigger impact - almost none of that applies! Come on now!

The guy is the second most impressive athlete in the game. He rebounded like a top three guy in his first year. He looked like he was capable of being the premier post up guy in the league. Top rookie campaign for a PF. He should be a top 3 player and most definitely can be. As of right now he's definitely not top 10.[/QUOTE]

Duncan is a legend but to say right now he plays it on a whole different level than newer generation top PF's is a great exaggeration. First off he's been a center for 7 years predominantly as I said and second off he's having superb year but don't act like he's the clear cut best bigman of the ones mentioned because it's debatable. Blake is where he should be if you actually watch basketball games and not Basketball Reference.

Blake's skillset has evolved to the point to where if you put him on a bad team again as THE man... no doubt he could easily average 23+ ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg and 1.5 spg. The only things stopping him from that are the things i mentioned. So much depth and talent surrounding him that he doesn't get nearly as many shots as he did his rookie year. Also he's needed to hit the jumper more than before so he's out of position on rebounds more often.

Then you factor in that when you put 100 percent more energy into defense it's not as easy to go all out crashing the boards. No player in the NBA gives 100 percent effort on offense, defense AND rebounding all the time. You have to learn to take it easy in one facet until you need to turn it on and for Blake that's rebounding lately due to the fact that there is less of a need currently. He's our 3rd best playmaker on the team and despite the numbers he's our 2nd best rebounder to Odom. Most reliable scoring option on the team. One of our best defenders.

I don't think you are understanding the concept of intangibles. Blake's impact on the team is MASSIVE. He's constantly drawing double teams and creating for teammates and that alone regularly swings games.

BG having a big game 20 points in the first

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]I was trying to reason with you.. but since you want to boxscore watch I guess I'm going to have to educate you a bit more. I don't think you understand what playing 6 minutes less per game on a MUCH more talented team does to numbers. Nonetheless I'll post some great games he's had. For the first month or so of the season he was banged up with a few injuries but after that he really picked it up.


Nov 17th vs the Bulls: 26 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and a block in only 33 minutes of play.


Dec 3rd vs the Jazz: 30 points, 11 rebounds, 1 steal in 37 minutes of play.


Dec 8th vs the Suns: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, [B]4 steals[/B], 1 block in only [B]29 minutes.[/B]


Dec 23rd vs the Suns: 23 points, 11 rebounds, 3 assists,[B] 4 steals[/B], 1 block in 31 minutes.


Jan 4th vs the Lakers: 24 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal in only [B]29 minutes. [/B]


Jan 5th vs the Warriors: 20 points, 5 rebounds, [B]7 assists, 3 steals[/B] in just 30 minutes.


Jan 12th vs the Magic: [B]30 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists[/B], 1 block in 35 minutes.


Jan 21st vs the Warriors: 26 points, 13 rebounds,[B] 8 assists, 3 steals[/B], 1 block in 41 minutes.


Jan 22nd vs the Thunder:[B] 31 points[/B], 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals and a block in 36 minutes.


Jan 26th vs the Blazers: 24 points, 8 rebounds, [B]10 assists, 4 steals[/B] in 38 minutes.


Jan 27th vs the Blazers: 23 points, 6 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals in just [B]28 minutes. [/B]


Jan 30th vs the Wolves: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 3 steals in 36 minutes.


Feb 3rd vs the Celtics: 20 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists in 36 minutes.


Feb 11th vs the Sixers: 20 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal in just [B]28 minutes.[/B]



Notice anything? Sure not as many 30 point games but way more balance with big steals numbers and all around stats in LESS minutes. To get those 30+ point games often his rookie year Blake was logging over 38 minutes a game, 7th most in the NBA if I recall. Now that we got that out of the way let me pick apart your other points.


1. Blake does rebound and his PER 36 rebound rate is over 10 which is fine for a PF playing on a team with guys like Odom and DJ who have very good rebound rates. Not to mention Turiaf and Hollins are good per minute rebounders this year.


2. His guards are among the best and all of them are ball dominant guards who either A. take a lot of shots or B. handle the ball a ton. When Billups and CP3 were both out Blake put up better stats than ever before in his career for about a two week stretch.


3. Chris Paul is FAR from the best set up guard in terms of lobs. Baron Davis threw him twice the lobs and Chris Paul often is [COLOR="Red"]afraid[/COLOR] to throw lobs for fear of a turnover. He CONSTANTLY misses Blake on the spin lob.


4. Blake's motor is still high but as he's matured he's learned to tone it down. Not to mention his rookie year he put ZERO energy into defense, now he puts nearly as much into it as offense so not sure what the aggression comment is based on besides you watching him maybe 5 times.


5. This comment about him fouling more often is actually in direct contradiction to your previous comment that his aggression is down. The reason his fouls are up is because he actually plays good defense now and is MORE aggressive. Who would have thought :hammerhead: .


6. FT shooting is actually significantly better. Again I can tell you're boxscore watching because you're looking at total percentage rather than the deeper story here. Beyond that a jump of over 1 percent and climbing is worth noting and still counts. He shot 70 percent in January for the entire month and has been very reliable from the line lately compared to previous seasons.


7. You really wanted to bring up 3 point shooting bro? He's pretty much only ever attempted 3's as a bailout with the clock expiring. Anything he hits or misses has primarily been luck because that's not a shot he normally takes. Sample size is too small and even if he is somehow a worse three point shooter, it doesn't matter for a PF who never attempts them. What's more important is he's become a decently reliable MIDRANGE shooter.


8. No superstars or perennial all stars in the NBA that aren't old play less minutes than Griffin or CP3. EVERYBODY else plays heavier minutes than these two and every top 15 player in the NBA regularly hits 38+ minutes, these guys rarely do. So no the reduced minutes isn't an excuse, it's a fact.


9. So because he's not going to get elected to an all NBA defensive team this year it means his defensive improvement is negligible? Bro I don't think you understand he's not just marginally better defensively. He's went from atrocious, invisible defender to "very solid" or "good" one in just two seasons.


If you need any other education on Clippers players let me know. The only thing I ask is PLEASE don't base such strong opinions on your limited viewing and then right paragraphs ripping a player with false shit.[/QUOTE]

CP3 is never "Afraid" he just doesn't want to gamble and tries to get better setup play.

Everything else Great post

[QUOTE=Pointguard]He's 39th in the league in rebounds per 48 minutes. 21 overall. Its not ok.


Haha, lob shiddy. But he's Chris Paul dammit. Best passing game controlling pg.


I never argued against this.



Haha, I brought that up because you two were acting like he was Einstein now and had an all knowing eye after he evolved from his cave man activities in his rookie year. On the real his rookie year he got those fouls trying to dunk people into the hoop. So he was being aggressive. Now he amazingly fouls himself and flops when point guards hollar at him - ok that was a joke. I never had a problem with his defense being better.



HE'S SHOOTING 65% IN Feb!


Blake came in the league with superstar written all on him and on the fence of being there. There are usually only 7 Superstars, at most, in the league. Its never going to be an 18 and 8 guy that is arguably the third best player on his team.[SIZE="6"][COLOR="Red"] Crawford has more impact on that team and he isn't a superstar.[/COLOR][/SIZE]



I was being nice. Trust me, really nice. But you getting a little carried away with it. I said I was learning the finer things about Blake, not the bigger things about Blake. In the many responses here you guys haven't advanced the argument beyond that he's better defensively and his middle game is better. BUT, he obviously is in a [B]diminished role[/B] with[B] less production[/B]. The SUPER STAR tendency is to grow in responsibility, role, impact and production. He's in reverse. He's growing in his diminished role because nature demands it. He's not maturing toward his superstar potential. You guys here just have low expectations and are ok with small regular player increments.

You are on a cloud if you think he's a superstar.

The guy came into the league more impressively than Barkley. Blake came into the league much more impressive than an older Karl Malone was when he came into the league. A younger KG wasn't really good at anything, but by the time he was BG;s age, he already is one of the most versatile players in the game ever, some of that was natural progression. Charles Barkley two years after coming into the league is a straight up Superstar. In two years Karl Malone is an all out Beast that knows and USES all of his strengths. The distance those guys covered in two years is light years above what Blake has accomplished. They matured into their superstar potential.

Faried, is a much more limited player role player that came in with much lower expectations. His improvements are obvious from year one to year two. I saw him have more impact in a game than Blake based solely on his aggression. Faried's team won that game and Faried was a big reason why. It didn't surprise anybody here because they kind of expect it.

Blake came in blazing now he's a controllable fire.[/QUOTE]



:facepalm

Then who Odom?