"Proof of Heaven" - best selling book by athiest neurosurgeon that had an NDE

[QUOTE=miller-time]It doesn't even have to be something that big. Just a tidbit of new information. Not philosophical or spiritual, but natural.[/QUOTE]
can you give me an example of some sort?...because these people do bring back all sorts of info, but yes nothing that is going to change medicine or advance the auto industry or anything like that.

[QUOTE=miller-time]He seems genuine. I don't doubt he had those experiences and he believes they are real. I just think they aren't really that interesting or original. I haven't finished the book yet but the parts I have found most interesting were from his own life, his adoption, his medical career, his experience of having meningitis. The NDE is more elaborate than most, but it still doesn't me think it could be anything but a product of the human mind.[/QUOTE]
Do you not find it fascinating that he was a nay sayer like yourself and then after having one he is a believer?

do you know that if you had one yourself you would most likely be a believer?...there are no NDEers that come back saying "that was probably just a product of my brain"...they come back saying that the brain is a handi-cap to them...we are trapped in it.

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]can you give me an example of some sort?...because these people do bring back all sorts of info, but yes nothing that is going to change medicine or advance the auto industry or anything like that.[/quote]

It could be anything. A fact about sub atomic particles or the age of the universe or how the moon was formed or even something more profound like how and where life began or the solution to an unsolved mathematics problem.

[quote]Do you not find it fascinating that he was a nay sayer like yourself and then after having one he is a believer?[/QUOTE]

I don't think that it is that fascinating really. The guy went through a harrowing experience, it would be weirder if he had no reaction to it at all. While he is a neurosurgeon he is also still a human being. He is no more capable of operating under bizarre circumstances than anyone else. He is no less susceptible to delusions and hallucinations than anyone else.

[quote]do you [B]know [/B]that if you had one yourself you would most likely be a believer?...there are no NDEers that come back saying "that was probably just a product of my brain"...they come back saying that the brain is a handi-cap to them...we are trapped in it.[/QUOTE]

I don't know that, but I'd agree it is possible. I'm not saying the experience isn't amazing or profound. As I said, you would expect a dramatic outcome. But at the same time that doesn't mean that they were real.

I have a friend who had psychosis, trust me, the things that happened to him in his mind were as real to him as anything else he had experienced in his life. He even says now that his memories of those events still feel like they were real and if he didn't understand that they were hallucinations and delusions he would probably still think they actually happened. Because in a way they did happen. His brain formed the memories like it does for any other experience. Doesn't mean they happened though does it?

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]That wasn't hard to understand at all...

Shvler, let's say this guy is telling the truth and in his head HE KNOWS FOR FACT that he saw an afterlife and even God, but obviously he can't prove it. What do you expect him to say? Is he supposed to lie and act as though it might have been a dream? Even though it felt more "real" than life on Earth?[/QUOTE]
Of course not. But his background in science as a neurosurgeon lends no credence to his beliefs.
Why are you so insistent on avoiding the very plausible scientific explanations? Seriously, go do research about the plausible physiological explanations for the "symptoms" of NDE.

[QUOTE=shlver]Of course not. But his background in science as a neurosurgeon lends no credence to his beliefs.
Why are you so insistent on avoiding the very plausible scientific explanations? Seriously, go do research about the plausible physiological explanations for the "symptoms" of NDE.[/QUOTE]


In this day and age, plausibility doesn't always lead to believability. You just proved his point that you believe in plausible evidence which leads to it becoming a [I]theory[/I] of NDE's. What the good doctor who wrote this book is stating, is that in his field of expertise, he has no plausible evidence to prove that science is behind our NDE's since he is a doctor and he is bound to look for a scientific explanation first.

We can argue about all the plausible arguments you want, but there is yet to be a scientific explanation for dreams, much less NDE's.

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing]In this day and age, plausibility doesn't always lead to believability. You just proved his point that you believe in plausible evidence which leads to it becoming a [I]theory[/I] of NDE's. What the good doctor who wrote this book is stating, is that in his field of expertise, he has no plausible evidence to prove that science is behind our NDE's since he is a doctor and he is bound to look for a scientific explanation first.

We can argue about all the plausible arguments you want, but there is yet to be a scientific explanation for dreams, much less NDE's.[/QUOTE]
Nope. Actual observed medical phenomena that reproduced symptoms of NDE. Look up anesthesia awareness.
It is not "just a theory" as you and primetime like to put it. It's apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about.
A neurosurgeon finds no plausible evidence that science is behind our NDEs.
Like really... People use this kind of connotation? "is the sky blue because of science?"

Lol, shlver I have done extensive research on this and have read up on every theory there is....there is nothing that fully explains them...the OBE in particular is impossible to explain

Never mind the fact that they have been shown to happen WITHOUT BRAIN WAVES....meaning, it is impossible they were dreamed, the brain isn't functioning at all...look up Pam Reynolds.

There are numerous scientists as well as doctors that are completely baffled by NDEs...and you walk into this thread and snicker at them as though you have them all figured out is an eye roller.

There are a couple drugs that can produce similar out of body type effects but they aren't the same as NDEs where you get the life review, meet spirits, are able to float from room to room or even across the globe, ect

Blind people can see for the first time after an NDE...that can't be explained by a dream...they have never seen what a human looks like until their NDE.

[QUOTE=shlver]Nope. Actual observed medical phenomena that reproduced symptoms of NDE. Look up anesthesia awareness.
It is not "just a theory" as you and primetime like to put it. It's apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about.
A neurosurgeon finds no plausible evidence that science is behind our NDEs.
Like really... People use this kind of connotation? "is the sky blue because of science?"[/QUOTE]


I have no idea what I'm talking about? You see, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm simply telling you that everything you're referring to is a theory. There is no denying that. Just like the "Theory of Evolution", yet millions take it as fact. You're too headstrong on believing it your way that you're refusing to accept the fact that when it comes to NDE's, which has nothing to do with anesthesia awareness, modern science cannot explain it. We are talking about people having religious and spiritual out of body experiences all over the world that answer questions that were other wise unknown. I fully expect another retort explaining to me how I'm wrong and theories are right.

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]Lol, shlver I have done extensive research on this and have read up on every theory there is....there is nothing that fully explains them...the OBE in particular is impossible to explain[/QUOTE]
No you haven't. Until you can tell me about brain physiology and its implication on how some NDE symptoms can be reproduced, then you have not "researched it extensively." Watching youtube videos and reading websites is not considered extensive research.
[QUOTE]Never mind the fact that they have been shown to happen WITHOUT BRAIN WAVES....meaning, it is impossible they were dreamed, the brain isn't functioning at all...look up Pam Reynolds.[/QUOTE]
EEG's have shown the inability to detect some brain activity.
[QUOTE]There are numerous scientists as well as doctors that are completely baffled by NDEs...and you walk into this thread and snicker at them as though you have them all figured out is an eye roller.[/QUOTE]
Do you even read my posts? I didn't suggest that anywhere. I pointed you to several physiological conditions that reproduce symptoms of NDE's. This is scientific evidence. If you turn to a supernatural cause and ignore the scientific explanations, then that is unscientific. Once again, his background in science as an MD lends no credence to his beliefs.

Here's a good article on a couple of scientists debunking the whole NDE phenomena: [url]http://www.livescience.com/16019-death-experiences-explained.html[/url]


However, as you get to the end of the article, you realize they filled your head with probabilities and improbabilities based on diseases or illnesses that mimic what NDE patients experience. They ignore the mere fact that while a Parkinson's patient may see an apparition, they are still alive, yet people that have experienced an NDE are clinically dead and when resuscitated can recollect things that were practically impossible.

I'm trying to be as objective as possible in looking for scientific research to explain the symptoms of NDE's and these are the type of articles I'm finding. In truth, it is a mere impossibility to study this. We would have to delve into a realm of weird science and have some test subjects volunteer to die.

[QUOTE=shlver]EEG's have shown the inability to detect some brain activity.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't even matter. Her NDE didn't occur when her brain stopped responding. It was both before and after that part of the operation. They only stopped her brain for a 5 or 6 minute window (from memory give or take a minute or two), everything else happens over a matter of hours and during the periods of time when her brain was still functioning.

[QUOTE=miller-time]Doesn't even matter. Her NDE didn't occur when her brain stopped responding. It was both before and after that part of the operation. They only stopped her brain for a 5 or 6 minute window (from memory give or take a minute or two), everything else happens over a matter of hours and during the periods of time when her brain was still functioning.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the clarification. Didn't have the time to actually look her up.

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-][IMG]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb90ajJo821rw5rky.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

**** you for making me laugh.

Dooms needs to make a 9/11 thread.

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing]
I'm trying to be as objective as possible in looking for scientific research to explain the symptoms of NDE's and these are the type of articles I'm finding. In truth, it is a mere impossibility to study this. We would have to delve into a realm of weird science and have some test subjects volunteer to die.[/QUOTE]
if there is a 5/6(russian roulette) possibility of me being revived i would volunteer for this test.

[QUOTE=miller-time]Doesn't even matter. Her NDE didn't occur when her brain stopped responding. It was both before and after that part of the operation. They only stopped her brain for a 5 or 6 minute window (from memory give or take a minute or two), everything else happens over a matter of hours and during the periods of time when her brain was still functioning.[/QUOTE]
That is a theory by nay Sayers...


She was able to describe all the instruments used on her during the operation without ever seeing them...(like most NDEs)...how does a dream do that?

[QUOTE=shlver]No you haven't. Until you can tell me about brain physiology and its implication on how some NDE symptoms can be reproduced, then you have not "researched it extensively." Watching youtube videos and reading websites is not considered extensive research.

EEG's have shown the inability to detect some brain activity.

Do you even read my posts? I didn't suggest that anywhere. I pointed you to several physiological conditions that reproduce symptoms of NDE's. This is scientific evidence. If you turn to a supernatural cause and ignore the scientific explanations, then that is unscientific. Once again, his background in science as an MD lends no credence to his beliefs.[/QUOTE]
A true NDE has never been reproduced without a flat line...there is no drug that can do it, only drugs that do similar effects.

Really I don't think you have any idea what NDEs do to people...they come out of them completely different people altogether. Many quit their jobs and devote themselves to charity work, is there a drug out there doing that to people? No one has ever claimed one to be a dream after having one. They see loved ones in spirit form that they KNOW FOR FACT was them...they see God, they go through various levels of spirit universe, can all that be reproduced on a regular? No it can't.

Why would our brains give everyone the same dream? That is unexplainable by science right now. Everyone is telling the same story regardless of race age religion, etc...

[QUOTE=Is He Ill][B]I have OBEs all the time[/B] when I'm tired from too much work. A month ago I ended up having like 3 in a 5 day period.

I've heard some really good things about the book from a couple of my friends. [B]I think that the guy is full of it[/B], but it will probably be an entertaining read.[/QUOTE]


:biggums:

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUD6kfEcgLc&playnext=1&list=PLB3VkL0_ujazGdCM3riPAAXLcu6opsuY6&feature=results_main"]Documentary o Pam Reynolds[/URL]

you should watch shvler...and miller

both sides are argued...

[IMG]http://store.noetic.org/images/products/776.jpg[/IMG]


^^^ this book written by an Oxford grad came to the clonclusion that there is no current scientific theory that holds up...

[URL="http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/science/why-materialist-science-cannot-explain-near-death-experiences-177019-page-3.html"]Article by him[/URL]

article ends with this after going over many of the theories:

[QUOTE]I examined all of the other attempts to explain away the NDE as the product of a malfunctioning brain, and ultimately not one stood up to critical scrutiny. The conclusion I finally arrived at was that the NDE is exactly what it appears to be: a genuine separation of mind from body during the early stages of biological death.[/QUOTE]



here are the main problems with the current theories of NDEs:

-they don't explain the seperation of consciousness from the body, in fact science is completely clueless on why we are concious at all, there is no explaination for it currently, our consciousness is a mystery.

-there is NO NDEer that is willing to accept them! If you were to approach any NDEer and say "that was a product of your brain shutting down" they would say "no it wasn't, I know what I saw is real, you don't understand". That is a big deal that pretty much 100% of them reject those theories, at what point do we who have not experienced this decide to stop trying to tell them what happened to them and instead actually listen to them and maybe even believe them?

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]-there is NO NDEer that is willing to accept them! If you were to approach any NDEer and say "that was a product of your brain shutting down" they would say "no it wasn't, I know what I saw is real, you don't understand". That is a big deal that pretty much 100% of them reject those theories, at what point do we who have not experienced this decide to stop trying to tell them what happened to them and instead actually listen to them and maybe even believe them?[/QUOTE]

Any time I get summoned for jury duty, I inform them I'm not able to convict anyone of a crime based on eye witness testimony. I'm promptly sent home.

You're talking about things people aren't even seeing with their eyes. And jumping to conclusions about the nature of the universe based on those eye witness claims.

Are you as quick to believe people who say they are summoned into alien spaceships and report "lost time"? I've seen and heard all kinds of people claim all kinds of things.

If this phenomena is ever verified under strict laboratory conditions as being "real" then you'd have my attention. Until then, I think I'll opt to take any eye witness reports from evolved apes with one giant grain of salt.

[QUOTE=Take Your Lumps]Any time I get summoned for jury duty, I inform them I'm not able to convict anyone of a crime based on eye witness testimony. I'm promptly sent home.

You're talking about things people aren't even seeing with their eyes. And jumping to conclusions about the nature of the universe based on those eye witness claims.

Are you as quick to believe people who say they are summoned into alien spaceships and report "lost time"? I've seen and heard all kinds of people claim all kinds of things.

If this phenomena is ever verified under strict laboratory conditions as being "real" then you'd have my attention. Until then, I think I'll opt to take any eye witness reports from evolved apes with one giant grain of salt.[/QUOTE]
first of all it is generally accepted that these people are being honest by everyone, doctors and scientists alike, regardless of weather or not they are brain produced or not. Unlike alien abductions which are rarely ever accepted as honest.

second, to have an NDE you have to have flatlined in a hospital...not anyone can claim to have gone through this, you have had serious shit happen to you. ANYONE can claim they were abducted by aliens...

third, like I said 100% of NDEers believe what they experinced is real and there is no one that can tell them otherwise. Is that not substaintial to you? That not one of them has ever said "you know that doctor is probably right, that was probably all a dream".

forth, Alien abductions come in all different types...NDEs are generally all the same regardless of who you are. Again, how is it that our brains are giving everyone the same dreams? Why is there no NDE that involves random shit like old friends from the past, or a fckin speghetti monster? you know the weird shit that is normally found in dreams? Why is it ALWAYS spirits of dead loved ones and God?

[QUOTE]Chris Carter was educated at Oxford University in Philosophy and Economics[/QUOTE]
lmao:lol :lol :roll: :roll: :roll: :facepalm

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]

Alien abductions come in all different types [/QUOTE]


Really? I thought they all followed the same pattern:

1. Lost time
2. Paralysis
3. Exam by creatures with big heads.
4. Ass probing.

[QUOTE=rufuspaul]Really? I thought they all followed the same pattern:

1. Lost time
2. Paralysis
3. Exam by creatures with big heads.
4. Ass probing.[/QUOTE]
ha...yeah I guess many of them are very similar (shit maybe some are real idk)...but still my other points stand

I could claim I was abducted by aliens right now if I wanted...but I couldn't do the same with an NDE because I didn't flatline in ER.

[QUOTE=Jello]lmao:lol :lol :roll: :roll: :roll: :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Oxford is arguablly the best school on the planet...right up there with Harvard

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]Oxford is arguablly the best school on the planet...right up there with Harvard[/QUOTE]
I would guess he's laughing at the fact the guy's education has nothing to do with empirical science.

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]Oxford is arguablly the best school on the planet...right up there with Harvard[/QUOTE]
You're arguably worse than IamRambo in terms of not knowing what you're talking about. His school doesn't matter if his area of expertise is something totally unrelated to what he's examining.

sure it matters, he is clearly an intelligent man it isn't like he is some dude working at Starbucks who wrote a book on the side...

I don't know why he decided to tackle this subject but I bet he has creditials of some form for this...

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]sure it matters, he is clearly an intelligent man it isn't like he is some dude working at Starbucks who wrote a book on the side...

I don't know why he decided to tackle this subject but I bet he has creditials of some form for this...[/QUOTE]
No appeal to authority requires expertise on the subject, this guy obviously does not have any background in neuroscience.

[URL="http://www.skeptiko.com/chris-carter-tackles-near-death-experience-science/"]Chris Carter interview[/URL]

this "subject" has no expertise...it isn't like there are NDE classes for science majors...neuroscience has no answer for NDEs, no one does...just ask the author in the OP

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-][URL="http://www.skeptiko.com/chris-carter-tackles-near-death-experience-science/"]Chris Carter interview[/URL]

this "subject" has no expertise...it isn't like there are NDE classes for science majors...neuroscience has no answer for NDEs, no one does...just ask the author in the OP[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
Damn people like ptiddy actually exist... No wonder our country is going down the shitter.

you're an fckin idiot...go troll another thread and act like country is ruined because of it

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]you're an fckin idiot...go troll another thread and act like country is ruined because of it[/QUOTE]
Keep up the ignorant handwaving and improper debating. You're a sad human being with no intelligence or critical thinking skills.

yeah, okay...um die in a fire...maybe you'll have an NDE that way

Can someone explain me why nobody sees Hell during this nde's? It's amazing! :lol

99% of the people just aren't Heaven material, but apparently everyone is going to Heaven regardless, You would figure that when the conscience detaches the body of the sinner he would see hell, you would figure that the LARGE majority of people would be experiencing hell. :lol


Off-course it had to be a drunk driving apologist to makes a thread like this.

[QUOTE=Lebowsky]I would guess he's laughing at the fact the guy's education has nothing to do with empirical science.[/QUOTE]

Guys bringing up their title discussing something unrelated always makes me suspicious. It's just another way to impress dumb people.

It's questionable for someone to stoop to that level period, someone's expertise should be evident, but when it's a degree in a wholly unrelated subject? Cringe.

[QUOTE=Blue&Orange]Can someone explain me why nobody sees Hell during this nde's? It's amazing! :lol

99% of the people just aren't Heaven material, but apparently everyone is going to Heaven regardless, You would figure that when the conscience detaches the body of the sinner he would see hell, you would figure that the LARGE majority of people would be experiencing hell. :lol


Off-course it had to be a drunk driving apologist to makes a thread like this.[/QUOTE]
they do actually...they call it "the void"

[url]http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research15.html[/url]

it isn't like the Christian hell of burning for eternity, but it is "hell" in a sense

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]A true NDE has never been reproduced without a flat line...there is no drug that can do it, only drugs that do similar effects.[/QUOTE]
I don't care about what they say a true nde is. I care about the symptoms and some of those symptoms have been reproduced by medically observed phenomena. This is fact.
[QUOTE]Really I don't think you have any idea what NDEs do to people...they come out of them completely different people altogether. Many quit their jobs and devote themselves to charity work, is there a drug out there doing that to people? No one has ever claimed one to be a dream after having one. They see loved ones in spirit form that they KNOW FOR FACT was them...they see God, they go through various levels of spirit universe, can all that be reproduced on a regular? No it can't.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter. I'm talking about brain physiology.
[QUOTE]Why would our brains give everyone the same dream? That is unexplainable by science right now. Everyone is telling the same story regardless of race age religion, etc...[/QUOTE]
Give me sources.
I also recall from an earlier thread that the majority of people that had NDE's also had a religious background. Don't quote me on that.

I can sum this up pretty easily.


I don't know, therefore heaven.

[QUOTE=shlver]I don't care about what they say a true nde is. I care about the symptoms and some of those symptoms have been reproduced by medically observed phenomena. This is fact.

It doesn't matter. I'm talking about brain physiology.

Give me sources.
I also recall from an earlier thread that the majority of people that had NDE's also had a religious background. Don't quote me on that.[/QUOTE]
No it is NOT FACT. what I listed ARE the symptoms...kentamine and the other one can give similar OBE type effects but they aren't the same things at all.

This is why it is obvious you don't understand what people who have NDEs go through...because the steps they go through are all the same, and they are life changing.

People who have NDEs generally come back LESS religious and more spiritual...that is another symptom...all people have them...ill post source for that when off my phone.