Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]First of all, don't dodge the fact that you posted deceptive numbers to try to suggest Melo and Kobe got to the line at a comparable rate. I proved that to be false. So lets get that out of the way.

As far as the rate Durant draws fouls at, I didn't tell you how to interpret the numbers. In fact, I just posted them and specifically said, interpret those anyway you want.

I didn't say Kobe and Melo should get to the line at the same rate Durant does. I watch them play, and would expect Durant to get more free throws because his shot is so difficult to contest, his off the ball movement sometimes gets him right under the basket which is almost always going to result in a foul or basket because you can't do much in that situation and as I mentioned, Durant's length makes him a very good finisher.

Melo on the other hand isn't the finisher Durant is and he gets a lot of shots blocked. But it's also clear he doesn't get anywhere near the calls Durant does. If you try to argue that, you simply don't watch both play. Melo actually does attempt 1.7 extra shots around the rim than Durant as well. And to put those numbers in better context, 26% of Melo's shots come at the rim, while 22.1% of Durant's shots come at the rim.

Durant sells the calls better, he always throws his arms up on a drive, but the refs almost always give him the benefit of the doubt, even if there's not much contact. For example, if Durant takes a jumper, misses it, but twists a little while he's shooting it, he'll almost always get free throws, same thing with lay ups. He still gets shooting fouls at times on that rip move as well, even when the other team isn't in the penalty.

And tell me, why Durant's free throws have increased so much from last season? I don't have a problem with him getting to the line a lot, but the rate is excessive, and I don't see anyway to argue that. He's getting to the line at a much higher rate than peak 2000 Shaq, a guy who played as physical as anyone, pretty much exclusively 10 feet and in, and was intentionally fouled.[/QUOTE]

Lets get this out of the way. Your numbers are deceptive. I posted nothing deceptive. Just reality.

You can't just post fga and pretend like it is equal. And I never even said they got to the line at a comparable rate. I said it wasn't that big of a difference...which it isn't on a per game basis. And I said it was deserved for Durant because he's just better at drawing fouls.

On threes alone you have to remove 2 shots per game from Melo and 1 shot per game from Kobe.

And we all know both of those guys take more bad shots than Durant besides that as well.

So it's not hard man. Durant is better at drawing fouls and Melo / Kobe take more threes and more bad shots. So that total number of fga per game that the players are in a situation to actually get fouled starts to get very close.

So besides trying to cover up the fact that your fga comparison is bs...you basically just agree that Durant is better at drawing fouls. So what is your problem?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

Durant shoots 9.4 free throws per game.

Kobe shoots 7.7 and Melo shoots 7.6
.[/QUOTE]
This is the exact same thing as saying the difference between 45%FG and 50%FG is minimal because its only one extra shot missed per game for a superstar averaging ~20 shots. And that logic was debunked a long time ago..

Durant gets 20+% MORE free throws than kobe and melo while taking less shots.

Sarcatic brought up a great Stat..

50+% FGA/FT ratio for Durant versus 30%s FGA/FT ratio for nearly every other superstar.

For a jumpshooter...

Durant and Kobe take almost the same % of mid range shots of their total FGA. One of them leans into defenders, pump fakes mid air, etc to get the call. The other you breathe on, he flails his arms and he's sent to the line for a pair of free throws. Yeah Kobe takes way more bad fadeaways etc than anyone else, but he's also the best at making them. That ability is his greatest strength and weakness at the same time. You cannot honestly say with a straight face that KD is fairly reffed, even for superstar standards. He gets at least 1-3 illegitimate trips to the line each game. That recent game @ Indy is one of his few post-ASG very good scoring performances without him getting bailed out like crazy and shooting 12-15 FTA

[QUOTE=tpols]This is the exact same thing as saying the difference between 45%FG and 50%FG is minimal because its only one extra shot missed per game for a superstar averaging ~20 shots. And that logic was debunked a long time ago..

Durant gets 20+% MORE free throws than kobe and melo while taking less shots.

Sarcatic brought up a great Stat..

50+% FGA/FT ratio for Durant versus 30%s FGA/FT ratio for nearly every other superstar.

For a jumpshooter...[/QUOTE]

Well, yes...I guess. But the main point was not to say that the difference isn't there or important.

It was to say it was deserved. It makes perfect sense that Durant goes to the line a little less than 1 more time per game.

I would never say the difference isn't important, but I would say it is within reason given the evidence.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Lets get this out of the way. Your numbers are deceptive. I posted nothing deceptive. Just reality.[/QUOTE]

No, I posted numbers with context. You simply posted total FTA, which is obviously deceptive as I showed.

[QUOTE]You can't just post fga and pretend like it is equal. And I never even said they got to the line at a comparable rate. I said it wasn't that big of a difference...which it isn't on a per game basis. And I said it was deserved for Durant because he's just better at drawing fouls.[/QUOTE]

It is a big difference in terms of averages, and especially the rate they get to the line at. To show you what a big difference it's made, Durant's TS% has jumped from 61% to 64% based almost solely on the fact that the rate he gets to the line at increased so much from last season.

[QUOTE]On threes alone you have to remove 2 shots per game from Melo and 1 shot per game from Kobe.[/QUOTE]

And I posted how many shots Melo and Durant take at the rim, so this is irrelevant.

[QUOTE]And we all know both of those guys take more bad shots than Durant besides that as well.

So it's not hard man. Durant is better at drawing fouls and Melo / Kobe take more threes and more bad shots. So that total number of fga per game that the players are in a situation to actually get fouled starts to get very close.[/QUOTE]

Durant is better at drawing fouls, doesn't mean he deserves all of them that he gets. Besides, Kobe has probably been the best in the league at drawing legitimate fouls on jump shots for years.

[QUOTE]So besides trying to cover up the fact that your fga comparison is bs...you basically just agree that Durant is better at drawing fouls. [B]So what is your problem?[/B][/QUOTE]

I just told you, it's the excessive rate. The fact that he gets to the line at a noticeably higher rate than 2000 Shaq is laughable.

And it's clear to anyone who watches them play that Melo doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays. Melo often gets hit going inside with no foul calls, if there's the slightest contact on Durant, or even just someone contesting an easy shot of his that he misses, he usually gets the call.

And the only one whose trying to cover anything up is you. You posted simple FTA numbers(which weren't that close) to try to suggest he doesn't get to the line at a higher rate.

[QUOTE=Element]Durant and Kobe take almost the same % of mid range shots of their total FGA. One of them leans into defenders, pump fakes mid air, etc to get the call. The other you breathe on, he flails his arms and he's sent to the line for a pair of free throws. Yeah Kobe takes way more bad fadeaways etc than anyone else, but he's also the best at making them. That ability is his greatest strength and weakness at the same time. You cannot honestly say with a straight face that KD is fairly reffed, even for superstar standards. He gets at least 1-3 illegitimate trips to the line each game. That recent game @ Indy is one of his few post-ASG very good scoring performances without him getting bailed out like crazy and shooting 12-15 FTA[/QUOTE]

That doesn't make sense given what you just said.

17.9 vs 20.4

Subtract the extra 3 that kobe shoots;

17.9 vs 19.4

Then you just said Kobe takes "way more bad fadeaways"(his ability to make them has no relevance here)...but let's just say he takes 1 more bad shot a game with no chance to get fouled;

17.9 vs 18.4

Then factor in Durant's superior ability to get to the line. Which is more than reasonable to equal a little less than 1 extra trip to the line per game. Which makes sense.

I mean. What are you people actually complaining about? That one of the best players in the league...that happens to be one of the best players at drawing fouls...is shooting a couple extra free throws a game on very similar shot attempts when getting fouled is actually possible? Makes sense to me.

We'd also need the amount of tech and defensive 3 second free throws shot on the year. I have no idea what those numbers would do, but that would give us a better idea as well.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]No, I posted numbers with context. You simply posted total FTA, which is obviously deceptive as I showed.



It is a big difference in terms of averages, and especially the rate they get to the line at. To show you what a big difference it's made, Durant's TS% has jumped from 61% to 64% based almost solely on the fact that the rate he gets to the line at increased so much from last season.



And I posted how many shots Melo and Durant take at the rim, so this is irrelevant.



Durant is better at drawing fouls, doesn't mean he deserves all of them that he gets. Besides, Kobe has probably been the best in the league at drawing legitimate fouls on jump shots for years.



I just told you, it's the excessive rate. The fact that he gets to the line at a noticeably higher rate than 2000 Shaq is laughable.

And it's clear to anyone who watches them play that Melo doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays. Melo often gets hit going inside with no foul calls, if there's the slightest contact on Durant, or even just someone contesting an easy shot of his that he misses, he usually gets the call.

And the only one whose trying to cover anything up is you. You posted simple FTA numbers(which weren't that close) to try to suggest he doesn't get to the line at a higher rate.[/QUOTE]

You didn't answer anything.

What do shots at the rim matter without the context of those shots. You mean the ones where Melo just throws it at the backboard and gets his own rebound for a tip in. He does that frequently enough for that to make your shots at the rim thing irrelevant.

And no, sorry, you can't just ignore the fact that Melo takes 2 more threes per game. LOL...so biased.

I never said he doesn't get to the line at a higher rate or more often. Those are facts. I simply said it wasn't that big of a gap when you really think about it...all of the stuff I'm talking about was implied.

You, on the other hand, want to compare fga and ft rate as if that is a fair comparison. When we all know when we watch the games that Melo and Kobe settle for more bad shots with little to no chance to get fouled one. On 3's alone it cuts that fga nonsense you were spewing way down. And again...shots at the rim does not mean one player should get to the line more often.

When you subtract 3's and the amount of bad shots Kobe and Melo both take...you get a comparable number of shots that these players can get fouled on. Then the difference is simple...and something everyone agrees with. Durant is better at drawing fouls.

Amazing how logic works.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Well, yes...I guess. But the main point was not to say that the difference isn't there or important.

It was to say it was deserved. It makes perfect sense that Durant goes to the line a little less than 1 more time per game.

I would never say the difference isn't important, but I would say it is within reason given the evidence.[/QUOTE]
It isnt deserved though.. Forget Kobe and Melo.

Compare Durant to Lebron, a guy who actually penetrates and draws a similar amount of contact(more actually) and plays efficiently/smartly with a similar amount of FGA.

37% ratio to 52% ratio

Whats your explanation for that?


Watching the games, you can see Durant using his long arms to sweep under or through the defenders arms even if the defender is within his own space. This happens whenever Durant is dribbling and gets pressured inside the arc. Durant will always sweep and flail, and since he has the length to make serious contact, hell get the call.

Its one thing to bait the refs when youre trying to score.. but KD is approaching late 2011 D-Wade levels of ref baiting. Literally every single time down the court if he goes into the paint he acts like he was fouled. Its like the mentality of 'scorers' has switched from trying to simply put the ball in the basket, to relying on refs to just gift you opportunities.

Like a dog that was given to many treats and doesnt want to go hunting for his own food anymore.

[QUOTE=esiotrot]First off: he gets a lot of cheap calls because of his flailing limbs and sht.

But last year, he averaged 28.0ppg on 49.6/38.7/86.0 (61%TS) with 7.6 free throws per game.

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

he is overrated :banana:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You didn't answer anything.

What do shots at the rim matter without the context of those shots. You mean the ones where Melo just throws it at the backboard and gets his own rebound for a tip in. He does that frequently enough for that to make your shots at the rim thing irrelevant.

And no, sorry, you can't just ignore the fact that Melo takes 2 more threes per game. LOL...so biased.[/QUOTE]

You calling me biased is incredibly ironic. There's been nothing here to suggest any bias on my part.

Yeah, I've seen Melo do the Moses thing at times, but don't pretend Melo doesn't go in, use and his body and not get the call. Calls Durant will get 95% of the time. Hubie Brown said a few times in the game yesterday that Melo should be shooting free throws on plays he didn't get the call. It happens regularly.

I've answered every poor attempt at an argument you've made. Fact is, Melo takes more shots at the rim, and that's where most fouls occur.

The Shaq example should be a good indication of how many calls Durant gets. You want to pretend Durant is in a position to get fouled more than Shaq was in 2000?

[QUOTE=tpols]It isnt deserved though.. Forget Kobe and Melo.

Compare Durant to Lebron, a guy who actually penetrates and draws a similar amount of contact(more actually) and plays efficiently/smartly with a similar amount of FGA.

37% ratio to 52% ratio

Whats your explanation for that?


Watching the games, you can see Durant using his long arms to sweep under or through the defenders arms even if the defender is within his own space. This happens whenever Durant is dribbling and gets pressured inside the arc. Durant will always sweep and flail, and since he has the length to make serious contact, hell get the call.

Its one thing to bait the refs when youre trying to score.. but KD is approaching late 2011 D-Wade levels of ref baiting. Literally every single time down the court if he goes into the paint he acts like he was fouled. Its like the mentality of 'scorers' has switched from trying to simply put the ball in the basket, to relying on refs to just gift you opportunities.

Like a dog that was given to many treats and doesnt want to go hunting for his own food anymore.[/QUOTE]

It's deserved because he does it and others don't or can't.

If you actually just sit and watch a Heat game or a Knick game or a OKC game you can see with your own damn eyes why people have an issue with Durant. You don't need to bring out your list of numbers with comparisons because THEY DONT ****IN RECORD WHETHER CALLS ARE BS OR NOT


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It's deserved because he does it and others don't or can't.[/QUOTE]

That's complete BULLSHIT. Others are getting hacked and aren't getting calls. Durant is getting babied. It's simple.

Cuz KD's game revolves around shooting freethrows nowadays.
[IMG]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/04/16/sports/basketball/16dribbledurant/16dribbledurant-articleInline.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]You calling me biased is incredibly ironic. There's been nothing here to suggest any bias on my part.

Yeah, I've seen Melo do the Moses thing at times, but don't pretend Melo doesn't go in, use and his body and not get the call. Calls Durant will get 95% of the time. Hubie Brown said a few times in the game yesterday that Melo should be shooting free throws on plays he didn't get the call. It happens regularly.

I've answered every poor attempt at an argument you've made. Fact is, Melo takes more shots at the rim, and that's where most fouls occur.

The Shaq example should be a good indication of how many calls Durant gets. You want to pretend Durant is in a position to get fouled more than Shaq was in 2000?[/QUOTE]

You are biased because you because the margins in this debate are incredibly small.

Again. All you are proving is exactly what I said. Durant is better at drawing fouls (which you agreed with) and he takes better shots (you don't realize you are making this point, but you are)

The truth is that if we were all being honest

Durant takes 17.9 shots per game...that is the basis.

When you account for 3's and bad shots...I'd say;

Kobe takes 18 shots per game he can be fouled on.
Melo takes 19 shots per game he can be fouled on.

So your fga vs ft rate line of thinking is bogus.

You are basically saying. OMG...Kobe takes 2.5 more shots per games and shoots less free throws.

And I'm saying...But Kobe takes 1 more three per game. He also takes more bad shots. And, the kicker, Durant is better at drawing fouls.

:wtf:

[QUOTE=ThatsGame]That's complete BULLSHIT. Others are getting hacked and aren't getting calls. Durant is getting babied. It's simple.[/QUOTE]

Yes. The league is biased against Lebron, Kobe, and Melo...and they love Durant and Harden.

That makes more sense than just using simple logic. :facepalm

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You are biased because you because the margins in this debate are incredibly small.

Again. All you are proving is exactly what I said. Durant is better at drawing fouls (which you agreed with) and he takes better shots (you don't realize you are making this point, but you are)

The truth is that if we were all being honest

Durant takes 17.9 shots per game...that is the basis.

When you account for 3's and bad shots...I'd say;

Kobe takes 18 shots per game he can be fouled on.
Melo takes 19 shots per game he can be fouled on.

So your fga vs ft rate line of thinking is bogus.

You are basically saying. OMG...Kobe takes 2.5 more shots per games and shoots less free throws.

And I'm saying...But Kobe takes 1 more three per game. He also takes more bad shots. And, the kicker, Durant is better at drawing fouls.

:wtf:[/QUOTE]

I never disputed that Durant takes better shots either. I never disputed that he should get to the line at a higher rate the way he plays. But stop harping on the 3s thing when I already posted the shots at the rim, which is much more accurate since there are a lot of 2s you're not likely to get fouled on, most jump shots actually, and if you are going to get fouled on a jump shot, you're not much more likely to get fouled on a 2 point jump shot than a 3.

The margin isn't small, and while Durant deserves to get to the line at a higher rate than Melo, it's clear they're not officiated the same, and Melo doesn't get the benefit of the whistles Durant does. And you still haven't addressed the Shaq point(actually, you haven't accurately addressed any of my points, but this one, you haven't even bothered to try). Does Durant deserve to get to the line at a higher rate than 2000 Shaq? I know you won't be harping on your 3 point thing in this example. :oldlol:

Again, nothing to suggest bias. I don't where you're getting that. Melo simply doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yes. The league is biased against Lebron, Kobe, and Melo...and they love Durant and Harden.

That makes more sense than just using simple logic. :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Watch the games.

No seriously, just watch the games.

If you still can't see a discrepancy then you're just a troll and/or stupid.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It's deserved because he does it and others don't or can't.[/QUOTE]
So you can't explain the massive difference in FT ratio between Bron and Durant..

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I never disputed that Durant takes better shots either. I never disputed that he should get to the line at a higher rate the way he plays. But stop harping on the 3s thing when I already posted the shots at the rim, which is much more accurate since there are a lot of 2s you're not likely to get fouled on, most jump shots actually, and if you are going to get fouled on a jump shot, you're not much more likely to get fouled on a 2 point jump shot than a 3.

The margin isn't small, and while Durant deserves to get to the line at a higher rate than Melo, it's clear they're not officiated the same, and Melo doesn't get the benefit of the whistles Durant does. And you still haven't addressed the Shaq point(actually, you haven't accurately addressed any of my points, but this one, you haven't even bothered to try). Does Durant deserve to get to the line at a higher rate than 2000 Shaq? I know you won't be harping on your 3 point thing in this example. :oldlol:

Again, nothing to suggest bias. I don't where you're getting that. Melo simply doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays.[/QUOTE]

Everything you are saying is biased. Shooting more shots at the rim does not mean you should get to the ft line more.

The game was called much differently back then. So I can't really answer the thing about Shaq.

What I do know, is that Durant deserves to go to the line as often as he does in comparison to Kobe and Melo.

You seem to be stuck in your thinking.

What are shots at the rim total for Durant and Kobe?

[QUOTE=tpols]So you can't explain the massive difference in FT ratio between Bron and Durant..[/QUOTE]

What do you mean?

Durant is better at getting to the line. Done...

Makes much more sense than thinking the NBA has a conspiracy against Lebron, Kobe, and Melo....

:wtf:

[QUOTE=ThatsGame]Watch the games.

No seriously, just watch the games.

If you still can't see a discrepancy then you're just a troll and/or stupid.[/QUOTE]

If a player is doing something like Durant is doing. What is more likely?

That the league has a conspiracy for Durant and against other elite players?

Or...that Durant is doing something that leads to results that other players aren't doing...or aren't doing as well?

Durant has REALLY long arms. If i was playing against the guy i'm sure i would probably slap him on one of his long arms too.

Durant is reffed differently because he's a 6'9-6'10 twig. I don't think it has anything to do with him trying to "bait" refs or anything.

From 16 feet and beyond;

Kobe takes 10.3 shots per game
Durant takes 8 shots per game

So if you assume that both players have the same chance to get fouled on the rest of their shots....you get;

Durant 17.9
Kobe 18.1

But let's not deduct the entire 2.3 difference because Kobe can get fouled. So let's say it's only a 1.5 difference to account for fouls.

Durant 17.9
Kobe 18.6

So, in this scenario, Kobe is taking .7 more shots per game that he can be fouled on than Durant.

We already all agreed that Durant is better at drawing fouls. We also all agreed that Durant takes less bad shots.

So is it really crazy to think that Durant should be going to the line a little less than 1 more time per game given such a similar amount of attempts in which both players can realistically get fouled?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Everything you are saying is biased. Shooting more shots at the rim does not mean you should get to the ft line more.

The game was called much differently back then. So I can't really answer the thing about Shaq.

What I do know, is that Durant deserves to go to the line as often as he does in comparison to Kobe and Melo.

You seem to be stuck in your thinking.

What are shots at the rim total for Durant and Kobe?[/QUOTE]

How exactly is their any bias on my part? And you wanted to break down their FGA. You attempted to do so by giving them equal 3s, I did one better by showing their shots at the rim. I'll grant you that you're more likely to get fouled on 2s than 3s in general, but I don't know how you can argue that you're more likely to get fouled at the rim than you are in mid-range.

I'm stuck in my thinking? You in itially posted stats without ANY context to try to make a point, I've consistently made vastly superior arguments and yet you won't budge.

If you think Melo gets the same treatment Durant does then you don't watch Knick games, or you're the one whose biased. Melo was consistently going inside yesterday for example, and going in strong, yet other than the 2 intentional fouls late, he didn't have a free throw.

It's the timing of the calls. Defenders can't play him like they do everyone. The amount of ***** calls he gets is what people hate. Fair officiating and I believe he is a 21ppg player. Still a good.player, but nowhere close to what he is now.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What do you mean?

Durant is better at getting to the line. Done...

Makes much more sense than thinking the NBA has a conspiracy against Lebron, Kobe, and Melo....

:wtf:[/QUOTE]
So.. you have no explanation/evidence/anything then.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]How exactly is their any bias on my part? And you wanted to break down their FGA. You attempted to do so by giving them equal 3s, I did one better by showing their shots at the rim. I'll grant you that you're more likely to get fouled on 2s than 3s in general, but I don't know how you can argue that you're more likely to get fouled at the rim than you are in mid-range.

I'm stuck in my thinking? You in itially posted stats without ANY context to try to make a point, I've consistently made vastly superior arguments and yet you won't budge.

If you think Melo gets the same treatment Durant does then you don't watch Knick games, or you're the one whose biased. Melo was consistently going inside yesterday for example, and going in strong, yet other than the 2 intentional fouls late, he didn't have a free throw.[/QUOTE]

It's not really about shots at the rim. Melo takes 22 shots a game. Based on your numbers...that would mean 6 shots at the rim. With something like 4.5 for Durant I'm assuming.

Okay...great. Let's say Melo has a better chance to get fouled on those 6 attempts. But what about the other 16 attempts? So Melo is gaining 1.5 chances there, but losing 2 on threes. And losing another 1.5 on shots between 16-23 feet. So if we break it down like you want to. You are already at 2 shots that should be deducted off Melo's total as he shoots 1.5 more shots at the rim, but shoots 3.5 more shots from 16 feet and beyond.

That is why fga is useless. You keep telling me to watch the games. Well, I watch them and I see Kobe and Melo settling for bad shots far more often than Durant. Factually they shoot more long shots as well...even after accounting for shots at the rim. They are still taking roughly 2 more shots per game from long range.

So what do you think is more likely. That Melo and Kobe take more long shots and settle for, on average, more bad shots per game....and Durant is better at drawing fouls...or;

The league has a conspiracy against the likes of Kobe, Melo, and Lebron

How can you not see the difference in listing fga and then bitching about ft rate without thinking first.

On the evidence alone...you'd have to cut 2 shots a piece off of Kobe and Melo to do an apples to apple comparison and shot attempts...and that doesn't even speak to the total difference in shots where a foul is more or less likely.

But lets just say 2 for a common ground.

you then immediately get 17.9 vs 18.4 vs 20. so that rate you originally posted looks a lot different.

and then i'd ask. how much better is durant at drawing fouls? can you quantify it? like 5% better. 10% better. what do you think?

Then you need to factor in that Durant plays more minutes per game. Small difference, but he's on the court more so more chance he can get fouled and go to the line. .3 more minutes than Kobe and 1.5 more minutes than Melo.

And when you start to add it all up...you start to see that the difference isn't all that you made it out to be and is easily explained by Durant just being better at drawing fouls.

And we also really need to see how many techs and defensive 3 second free throws these guys take. I have no clue who takes the most, but obviously Durant shoots them all for the Thunder because he's the best ft shooter in the league. I know Nash took them a lot of the time for the Lakers.

[QUOTE=tpols]So.. you have no explanation/evidence/anything then.[/QUOTE]

What?

You want me to provide evidence that Durant is better at getting to the line? I just did...he shoots more free throws.

What is your evidence that Lebron should be getting to the line more often?

WTF are you talking about?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It's not really about shots at the rim. Melo takes 22 shots a game. Based on your numbers...that would mean 6 shots at the rim. With something like 4.5 for Durant I'm assuming.[/QUOTE]

5.7 at the rim for Melo, 4.0 for Durant.

Okay...great. Let's say Melo has a better chance to get fouled on those 6 attempts. But what about the other 16 attempts? So Melo is gaining 1.5 chances there, but losing 2 on threes. And losing another 1.5 on shots between 16-23 feet. So if we break it down like you want to. You are already at 2 shots that should be deducted off Melo's total as he shoots 1.5 more shots at the rim, but shoots 3.5 more shots from 16 feet and beyond.[/QUOTE]

Again, you're not much more likely to get fouled shooting a mid-range than you are shooting a 3.

[QUOTE]That is why fga is useless. You keep telling me to watch the games. Well, I watch them and I see Kobe and Melo settling for bad shots far more often than Durant. Factually they shoot more long shots as well...even after accounting for shots at the rim. They are still taking roughly 2 more shots per game from long range.[/QUOTE]

FTA without FGA are useless. Yes, Melo is taking more shots from long range, but he's also taking roughly 2 more shots at the rim.

[QUOTE]So what do you think is more likely. That Melo and Kobe take more long shots and settle for, on average, more bad shots per game....and Durant is better at drawing fouls...or;

The league has a conspiracy against the likes of Kobe, Melo, and Lebron

How can you not see the difference in listing fga and then bitching about ft rate without thinking first.[/QUOTE]

I thought everything through, you're the one who clearly didn't and is ignoring the best evidence while desperately trying to angle and save face. Sorry, but I'm not fooled by it.

As far as Melo, I don't think he's a favorite player of the league, or around the league ever since some of his off the court issues in his first 2 seasons, the brawl in '06 or the trade demand. Plus, he's much stronger physically which doesn't help.

I think lebron has also reached the point where he's so dominant that he gets penalized for it compared to Durant, especially since we've never seen a perimeter player like him physically.

[QUOTE]On the evidence alone...you'd have to cut 2 shots a piece off of Kobe and Melo to do an apples to apple comparison and shot attempts...and that doesn't even speak to the total difference in shots where a foul is more or less likely.[/QUOTE]

Fouls are most likely at the rim, so again, you're dodging the best points as fast as you can.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What?

You want me to provide evidence that Durant is better at getting to the line? I just did...he shoots more free throws.

What is your evidence that Lebron should be getting to the line more often?

WTF are you talking about?[/QUOTE]
Theres two sides to FTs. The player and the ref. You are very naive if you think certain players arent coddled more than others. It varies from player to player.

Lebron gets fouled more than Durant.. easily. Gets pushed around a lot more. Durant is better at exxagerating contact though.. mostly because he doesnt have a strong frame. And thats why refs call more fouls for him.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]5.7 at the rim for Melo, 4.0 for Durant.

Okay...great. Let's say Melo has a better chance to get fouled on those 6 attempts. But what about the other 16 attempts? So Melo is gaining 1.5 chances there, but losing 2 on threes. And losing another 1.5 on shots between 16-23 feet. So if we break it down like you want to. You are already at 2 shots that should be deducted off Melo's total as he shoots 1.5 more shots at the rim, but shoots 3.5 more shots from 16 feet and beyond.[/QUOTE]

Again, you're not much more likely to get fouled shooting a mid-range than you are shooting a 3.



FTA without FGA are useless. Yes, Melo is taking more shots from long range, but he's also taking roughly 2 more shots at the rim.



I thought everything through, you're the one who clearly didn't and is ignoring the best evidence while desperately trying to angle and save face. Sorry, but I'm not fooled by it.

As far as Melo, I don't think he's a favorite player of the league, or around the league ever since some of his off the court issues in his first 2 seasons, the brawl in '06 or the trade demand. Plus, he's much stronger physically which doesn't help.

I think lebron has also reached the point where he's so dominant that he gets penalized for it compared to Durant, especially since we've never seen a perimeter player like him physically.



Fouls are most likely at the rim, so again, you're dodging the best points as fast as you can.[/QUOTE]

Fouls are more likely to happen at the rim. But they are also less likely to happen from 16 feet out. And the net of that is minus 2 for Melo. Sorry...he takes 4 more shots from 16 feet out per game.

And the shots at the rim are misleading because Melo often goes in out of control and throws the ball up just to get his own miss. But I won't even get into reality.

No, sorry, it's not about fga...it's about how many fga are you taking in which you can or try to draw a foul. Taking all the bad shots Melo and Kobe do...more than makes up for the increased fg attempts.

A player could take 25 shots a game and it wouldn't matter if those extra 7 shots a game were shots in which getting fouled is highly unlikely.

Durant could be more likely to be fouled on long shots...making the difference even bigger there. Not only does he take less, but he's more likely to draw a foul. Same could be said for mid range...etc.

How much better is Durant at drawing fouls? Quantify it. That seems to be missing from your analysis on what Durant does or doesn't deserve.

[QUOTE=tpols]Theres two sides to FTs. The player and the ref. You are very naive if you think certain players arent coddled more than others. It varies from player to player.

Lebron gets fouled more than Durant.. easily. Gets pushed around a lot more. Durant is better at exxagerating contact though.. mostly because he doesnt have a strong frame. And thats why refs call more fouls for him.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Durant is better at selling the contact. Totally agree...which is why he's better at getting to the line.

Still confused as to how you think that helps your case.

Durant is the best scorer in the NBA, by a VERY large margin based on ABILITIES.
But he's a mental midget that can't take the role of a real leader

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Fouls are more likely to happen at the rim. But they are also less likely to happen from 16 feet out. And the net of that is minus 2 for Melo. Sorry...he takes 4 more shots from 16 feet out per game.[/QUOTE]

Man, you're thickheaded. They're not all that likely to happen away from the rim in general.

[QUOTE]And the shots at the rim are misleading because Melo often goes in out of control and throws the ball up just to get his own miss. But I won't even get into reality.[/QUOTE]

I've watched almost every Knick game this season, so I know a lot more about how Melo plays than you do. I said before that I've seen him do the Moses thing at times, but a lot of times, he goes up strong, gets hit, and doesn't get a call. He has an excellent second jump, so sometimes he scores anyway, but you're kidding yourself if you think Melo gets the same calls going to the rim as Durant does. Not even close.

[QUOTE]No, sorry, it's not about fga...it's about how many fga are you taking in which you can or try to draw a foul. Taking all the bad shots Melo and Kobe do...more than makes up for the increased fg attempts.[/QUOTE]

This has been covered more accurately with shots at the rim. You're just too dense to admit it.

[QUOTE]Durant could be more likely to be fouled on long shots...making the difference even bigger there. Not only does he take less, but he's more likely to draw a foul. Same could be said for mid range...etc.[/QUOTE]

Actually, mid-range is one of the few areas Melo has done a good job drawing fouls. Especially during his shooting slumps.

[QUOTE]How much better is Durant at drawing fouls? Quantify it. That seems to be missing from your analysis on what Durant does or doesn't deserve.[/QUOTE]

If he was getting to the line at the same rate he did last season, I wouldn't complain. Roughly once every 2.6 FGA instead of once every 1.9. You still haven't explained why Durant himself has seen such an increase despite not shooting any more at the rim, or inside 10 feet in general.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Man, you're thickheaded. They're not all that likely to happen away from the rim in general.



I've watched almost every Knick game this season, so I know a lot more about how Melo plays than you do. I said before that I've seen him do the Moses thing at times, but a lot of times, he goes up strong, gets hit, and doesn't get a call. He has an excellent second jump, so sometimes he scores anyway, but you're kidding yourself if you think Melo gets the same calls going to the rim as Durant does. Not even close.



This has been covered more accurately with shots at the rim. You're just too dense to admit it.



Actually, mid-range is one of the few areas Melo has done a good job drawing fouls. Especially during his shooting slumps.



If he was getting to the line at the same rate he did last season, I wouldn't complain. Roughly once every 2.6 FGA instead of once every 1.9. You still haven't explained why Durant himself has seen such an increase despite not shooting any more at the rim, or inside 10 feet in general.[/QUOTE]

You can't answer a simple question. How much better is Durant at drawing fouls than Carmelo. Please quantify it. Because that has to go into the formula. In fact...it is the biggest factor.

I told you that Carmelo has a 1.6 shot attempt advantage at the rim. But he also takes 4 more shots from 16 feet and beyond. That has to factor in as well.

And obviously Durant is drawing fouls all over the place and not just at the rim...so the normal rules don't apply to him.

What you are too dense to comprehend is that even with 6 shots at the rim, you have to account for the other 16. And you have to determine how often Carmelo is trying to get fouled or even in a position to get fouled. Melo takes a lot of threes (2 more than Durant per game)...and doesn't try to draw contact on his jumper as often.

Also, what you are forgetting, is that you don't have to be shooting to get to the line. Durant plays 1.5 more minutes per game as well...that needs to be factored in.

Why can't you use basic logic. Even with the 1.6 shots at the rim advantage, you still have to determine how likely each player is to get fouled on the other shots. And...you have to factor in things like minutes played and how often they shoot tech / defensive 3 second free throws.

And then, the kicker, how much better is Durant at drawing fouls. You need to quantify this so we can factor that in. Because even just a 10% difference in ability in this area goes a long way.


Do you have a problem with Kobe taking more free throws or roughly the same amount as carmelo...despite carmelo taking more shots...including more shots at the rim? So Melo takes 1.6 more shots and takes more shots at the rim...yet he shoots less free throws. Do you have an issue with this?

[QUOTE=Quintilianus]Durant is the best scorer in the NBA, by a VERY large margin based on ABILITIES.
[B]But he's a mental midget that can't take the role of a real leader[/B][/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

Good one

melo wud be putting up 10 more points a game if he got reffed like durant

[QUOTE=KG215]:oldlol:

Good one[/QUOTE]
That's a very sad true. Sad because I rooted for him since he came into the NBA, always loved his game even when people were calling him mr. 5/25.
He got so caught up in his stats and trying to be lebron, that he forgot that he's the best scorer in the NBA by a large margin. Of couse he's a guy that doesn't talk much, so naturally a show-off like westbrook who naturally wants to win and doesn't care about anything else eventually takes over as the leader of this team.
I realize you're a Durant fan, I too have very strong appreciation for his game throughout his career, but he's very weak mentally.
On the other hand, his path reminds me of lebron in some ways, so maybe he'll brake out of his weaknesses by meeting someone inferior to him mentally in the playoffs. I don't know who will that be, but it'll probably eventually happen