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[QUOTE=Kovach]The most fundamentally sound center of all time whose arsenal of moves is unrivaled by pretty much anyone not named MJ is worse than a forward with the aesthetics of a tractor? Sure.[/QUOTE]
let me guess, hakeem was a better offensive player than shaq or wilt also since he has a better array of moves
[QUOTE=arifgokcen]Whats up with these all new trolls.
and not just kobe stans there are a lot of new lebron stans too.
ISH has become the ultimate troll forum.There really is no thread that anyone can discuss anything without these trolls.
Interestingly enough most of these newcomers make me question the average age.How hard is it to put two words together.[/QUOTE]
In what way does my post look like trolling?
I try to be objective as I can, yes I'm a laker fan, grew up watching Kobe if that's what you mean, but that's it, I don't have hard feelings for anybody, try to evaluate everything that I see as objective as possible
[QUOTE=Raymone]If LeBron played in the 90s, do you really think he would've been stopped by Jordan and the Bulls? What team in history could stop LeBron?[/QUOTE]
I don't know, how many teams from the 90's did he face?
OP does Lebron like his BJs wet and sloppy ?
[QUOTE=inclinerator]let me guess, hakeem was a better offensive player than shaq or wilt also since he has a better array of moves[/QUOTE]
No of course not, a dunk, a jump-hook and moving your opponent out of your way with your ass clearly trump everything Hakeem could do on offense.
[QUOTE=inclinerator]let me guess, hakeem was a better offensive player than shaq or wilt also since he has a better array of moves[/QUOTE]
It's subjective. He swept shaq in the finals and outplayed him big time, so there's definitely a case for this one.
And for wilt, there's obviously the era-barrier that will not bring us our answers. At least not in our time until they find a machine that realistically simulates games.
[QUOTE=pauk]wow... excellent facts.... you win my friend.... :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Lebron cracking under pressure ..... fact
Lebron chokes ...... fact
Lebron mentally weak ...... fact
Lebron clutch non-existent .. fact
:rolleyes: back at ya
[QUOTE=Quintilianus]It's subjective. He swept shaq in the finals and outplayed him big time, so there's definitely a case for this one.
And for wilt, there's obviously the era-barrier that will not bring us our answers. At least not in our time until they find a machine that realistically simulates games.[/QUOTE]
No he didn't, the margin between the two wasn't as great as some people believe.
I have no problem with either Shaq or LeBron, it was the "No... just no.." comment that ticked me off, as if Hakeem doesn't have a case, which is bull.
Shaq was more dominant. In his prime you had to foul him to stop him. However I think people sometimes overlook the fact that this means there was a clear cut way to defend him.
I don't mind people saying Shaq was a better offensive player, because he was just so.......dominant. No one could guard him. But there is a very easy argument that could be made for Hakeem on the basis of versatility and a lack of clear exploitable weaknesses.
[QUOTE=inclinerator]let me guess, hakeem was a better offensive player than shaq or wilt also since he has a better array of moves[/QUOTE]
[B]Numbers favor Shaq on offense, but who was the more complete offensive player?[/B]
Sure, Shaq has the better offensive numbers, but they're not light years better. Still, what was Shaq's game? Catch the ball in the low post, turn, and dunk. That's not a criticism - if you do something better than anyone else, you have to do it until someone stops it... and with Shaq, nobody ever did, because he was just that good.
Olajuwon on the other hand, well - he was great in the low post. He could kill you on the baseline with the Dream Shake. He had the mid-range jumper. Then, when he could already rely on his skills and was already better than all his peers, he developed a jump hook. When the jump hook showed up on the resume, it was OVER. Hakeem could officially murder you from pretty much anywhere inside of 16-18 feet.
That said, I'm not going to take anything away from Shaq's offensive game. Nobody in the history of the NBA, aside from Wilt Chamberlain, can compete with what he could do offensively under the basket.
[url]http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250889[/url]
[QUOTE=Kovach]No he didn't, the margin between the two wasn't as great as people believe.
I have no problem with either Shaq nor LeBron, it was the "No... just no.." comment that ticked me off, as if Hakeem doesn't have a case, which is bull.[/QUOTE]
Statistically it wasn't, but shaq was statpadding in the garbage time in one game I remember.
There was one game that they were somewhat equal, hakeem's team obviously still won that.
Other three were heavily in Hakeem's favour, even shaq admints that he was destroyed
[QUOTE=Quintilianus]It's subjective. He swept shaq in the finals and outplayed him big time, so there's definitely a case for this one.
And for wilt, there's obviously the era-barrier that will not bring us our answers. At least not in our time until they find a machine that realistically simulates games.[/QUOTE]
That's a big myth. Hakeem didn't outplay Shaq 'big time'; they pretty much went toe to toe throughout the entire finals. Hakeem was a bit better, but this was a 23 year old Shaq, not the 99-00 version. It was the Houston supporting cast that ultimately made the difference in that series.
[QUOTE=zizozain][B]Numbers favor Shaq on offense, but who was the more complete offensive player?[/B]
Sure, Shaq has the better offensive numbers, but they're not light years better. Still, what was Shaq's game? [B]Catch the ball in the low post, turn, and dunk[/B]. That's not a criticism - if you do something better than anyone else, you have to do it until someone stops it... and with Shaq, nobody ever did, because he was just that good.
Olajuwon on the other hand, well - he was great in the low post. He could kill you on the baseline with the Dream Shake. He had the mid-range jumper. Then, when he could already rely on his skills and was already better than all his peers, he developed a jump hook. When the jump hook showed up on the resume, it was OVER. Hakeem could officially murder you from pretty much anywhere inside of 16-18 feet.
That said, I'm not going to take anything away from Shaq's offensive game. Nobody in the history of the NBA, aside from Wilt Chamberlain, can compete with what he could do offensively under the basket.
[url]http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250889[/url][/QUOTE]
That's not entirely true, while he did that most of the time, he had a very respectable arsenal of post moves, there's been guys that were big, but shaq was as great because he had those post moves and obviously his incredible athleticism that gets overlooked nowadays as he got fat for like 7 years of his career
[QUOTE=Quintilianus]Statistically it wasn't, but shaq was statpadding in the garbage time in one game I remember.
There was one game that they were somewhat equal, hakeem's team obviously still won that.
Other three were heavily in Hakeem's favour, even shaq admints that he was destroyed[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
I decided to rewatch the 1995 finals and chart each possession to see to how effective Shaq and Hakeem were on the court. A special shout out to Jordanbulls for providing the video of this series
Total:
Hakeem: 253 touches, 140 doubles (55.3%)
Shaq: 221 touches, 146 doubles (66.1%)
Here are their stats when they were guarded by each other:
Shaq 32-57 (56.1 FG%), 6-8 FT, 67.3 double teamed%, .578 TS%, 17 assists, 1 O-reb allowed to Hakeem
Hakeem: 31-75 (41.3 FG%), 9-13 FT, 60.2 double teamed%, .446 TS%, 8 assists, 3 O-reb allowed to Shaq
Shaq blocked 2 Hakeem shots, Hakeem blocked 0 Shaq shots. Hakeem did make a 3P on Shaq. Hakeem guarded Shaq on 73.3% of the touches he had, while Shaq guarded Hakeem on 69.6% of his touches. Hakeem got a lot more fastbreak touches than Shaq so in the halfcourt, they guarded each other about even.
When they weren't being guarded by each other, Shaq was being guarded by Charles Jones and Hakeem by Horace Grant.
Shaq vs Jones: 7-11 FG (63.6 FG%), 35 doubles in 52 touches (67.3%), 2 assists
Hakeem vs Grant: 13-24 (54.2 FG%), 33 double teams in 58 touches (56.9%), 6 assists
Jump shots:
Hakeem: 27-62 (43.5%)
Shaq: 2-7 (28.6%)
The vast majority of Shaq's shots were close range hooks.
Dunks:
Hakeem: 1 dunk (vs grant)
Shaq: 9 dunks (2 of them were in Hakeem's face)
Fouls drawn on offense:
Shaq: 37 (17 on Hakeem)
Hakeem: 21 (9 on Shaq)
Hakeem did draw 4 Shaq charges.
Shaq was called for 5 travels, Hakeem 2.
Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes
Off court:
Shaq: -16 in 16:37 of action (Houston scored 133 points per 48 in the minutes Shaq missed)
Hakeem: +11 in 17:11 of action (134 points per 48 in the minutes he was off the court)
Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.
Observations:
-Orlando was for some reason really committed to doubling Hakeem in game 1. They were throwing a lot of hard doubles. Hakeem had 5 assists in that game, all of them 3 pointers, 4 came off of doubles (one was a triple team). I'm guessing it was a response to Hakeem's series vs Robinson. For the rest of the series, Orlando didn't double Hakeem as much and they threw softer doubles.
-Hakeem made like 5 or 6 baskets in transition to Shaq's 1 or so. So while Shaq didn't get credit for giving up those buckets since he didn't guard, a few of those times Shaq was slow in transition. Shaq got about 3 or shots
-One of the commentators compared Horry to Scottie Pippen and Walton took the comment seriously. They are vastly different players IMO
-I'm not sure why Penny wasn't more aggressive. Kenny Smith couldn't guard him at all. When Penny did drive to the basket, he made a few shots over Hakeem.
-Drexler was the man in this series. He really wanted to get his first title badly. For some reason, people rarely talk about him despite him getting more WS than Hakeem in that playoff run
-It's fashionable these days to **** on Hakeem's cast in 94, but this cast was much better than that one. The guards outplayed Orlando's guards. Horry played really well. The 3P shooters benefited a lot from the shortened 3P line.
-Contrary to popular belief, handchecking wasn't allowed in 95. The refs called like 2 handchecking fouls in this series
-I'm so thankful the NBA got rid of the illegal defense. The refs called like 5 of them in each game. It destroyed the flow of the game and limited the ways you could double team a player.[/QUOTE]
All credits to colts18 from RealGM.
You make what you want of it.
[QUOTE=Raymone]What has Hakeem ever done that LeBron hasn't?[/QUOTE]
win 2 titles and back to back titles.
If Lebron wins a title this season, I have a hard time seeing much of a case for Hakeem.
NBA Finals
Hakeem
1986: 25-12-2-2-3 (loss was to the 86 Celtics, arguably the GOAT team)
1994: 27-9-4-2-4
1995: 33-12-6-2-2
Lebron
2007: 22-7-7-1-1 (loss, 6 to, 36 fg%)
2011: 18-7-7-2-1 (loss, 4 to, 3 ppg in 4th quarters, 0 points on 0-7 in the clutch, 5th leading scorer in the series, outscored by bench player)
2012: 29-10-7-2-0 (lockout year)
"NEXT"
[QUOTE=Rubio2Gasol]A strong case for what exactly? Hakeem was a better offensive player and a much better defensive player at the end of the day.[/QUOTE]
This. Accolades without context doesnt mean much. Imagine Lebron in the Golden age... He wouldnt be seen as great. Now imagine what Dream could do to current NBA? It just wouldnt be fair.
I just think its more debatable than many here refuse to think, its close i think and therefore more interesting to discuss. Keep in mind what company Lebron is with those 4 MVPs aswell... Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain.... players who were not only better than Hakeem, but contenders for Greatest Player of All Time.
LeBron hasn't been the best player for 4+ years. In retrospect, especially given his immature, pouty ways of 2010 and 2011. He doesn't deserve that title. He was the greatest talent, sure. But not player. He didn't have the mental game down until last season.
LeBron hasn't been clearly the best player in the league until last season. 2009 and 2010 you have arguments with Kobe and Wade. In 2011, Rose, Dirk, Dwight and his own teammate Wade.
[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]LeBron hasn't been the best player for 4+ years. In retrospect, especially given his immature, pouty ways of 2010 and 2011. He doesn't deserve that title. He was the greatest talent, sure. But not player. He didn't have the mental game down until last season.
LeBron hasn't been clearly the best player in the league until last season. 2009 and 2010 you have arguments with Kobe and Wade. In 2011, Rose, Dirk, Dwight and his own teammate Wade.[/QUOTE]
There is legitimately zero argument that rose was better than lebron in 2011.
[QUOTE=Electric Slide]There is legitimately zero argument that rose was better than lebron in 2011.[/QUOTE]
As a player, sure. Context, he had the argument for MVP.
Even disregarding that ... do you not agree with the rest of what I said?
I'm a better shooter than both of them combined.
[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]As a player, sure. Context, he had the argument for MVP.
Even disregarding that ... do you not agree with the rest of what I said?[/QUOTE]
Ehh.... I don't see much of an argument for either Kobe or Wade in 2009 or 2010 honestly. Lebron just didn't win it all. You don't have to win it all to be the best. If winning is your premise, I don't know how you can say Wade was better in 09 or 10 either because he was even less successful.
Lebron's post-season play in 2010 was way blown out of proportion which is why I'm assuming you have Kobe above him. He just had a bad series for his standard and his team was completely outmatched. If you switched their teams, there is no question in my mind that Lebron would have won it all and probably would have won it faster. I doubt he would have needed all 7 games to beat the Celtics with Gasol, Odom, and Bynum.
2011 is the only one where you can say he wasn't the best and that Wade, Dirk, and Dwight were better.
But 2009 and 2010? Nah.
[QUOTE=All Net]Only a matter of time really.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="White"]this[/COLOR]
Lebron will already be greater than everyone except for the following (if he wins another FMVP):
MJ
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Top 10 player of all time before the age of 29.
[QUOTE=Miserio]The 'best player' part is plain stupid it depends on the players from that particular era. If LeBron played in the 90s he wouldn't be the best player. He would be the runner up to the-one-we-all-know.[/QUOTE]
Like saying if Jordan didn't retire then Hakeem will have 0 best player too
This FMVP will put him over Hakeem imo. No homer.
[QUOTE=pauk]I just think its more debatable than many here refuse to think, its close i think and therefore more interesting to discuss. Keep in mind what company Lebron is with those 4 MVPs aswell... Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain.... players who were not only better than Hakeem, but contenders for Greatest Player of All Time.[/QUOTE]
Steve Nash has more MVPs than Isiah Thomas. That doesn't make him better. Heck Derrick Rose has more MVPs than Isiah. The MVP is not a great tool to rate players against each other for several reasons. For one, the voting rules have changed. The players themselves used to vote. Now the media does. Also the definition of what truly is the MVP has never been defined.
Michael Jordan should probably have 10 MVPs, but instead he only has 5. The voters change their opinions from year to year on who should get the award. Sometimes they like to crown a past champion, and sometimes they get fatigue and want to give it to a new guy.
On top of that, the competition is different from era to era. Dirk has an MVP, but he never competed with Magic, Bird, nor Michael to get it. It's just an awful awful awful way to try to judge players from different eras.
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]NBA Finals
Hakeem
1986: 25-12-2-2-3 (loss was to the 86 Celtics, arguably the GOAT team)
1994: 27-9-4-2-4 [B](Jordan wasn't in the league)[/B]
1995: 33-12-6-2-2[B](MJ played 17 games)[/B]
Lebron
2007: 22-7-7-1-1 (loss, 6 to, 36 fg%)(A
2011: 18-7-7-2-1 (loss, 4 to, 3 ppg in 4th quarters, 0 points on 0-7 in the clutch, 5th leading scorer in the series, outscored by bench player)
2012: 29-10-7-2-0 (lockout year)
"NEXT"[/QUOTE]
How does the lock out affect the Finals? :biggums:
In 2007 I'm so sure the Spurs were worried about Larry Hughes beating them and didn't focus their entire defense on Lebron. :facepalm
[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Steve Nash has more MVPs than Isiah Thomas. That doesn't make him better. Heck Derrick Rose has more MVPs than Isiah.[/QUOTE]
Didn't know Nash and Rose were in the category of players being discussed.
As they're not, it's irrelevant. I don't get why people bring lesser players into a discussion as if it's supposed to "prove" anything.
[QUOTE=Quintilianus]He's a center, based on what he's doing and his abilities, he was a dominant force offensively. And still was best defensive player for x years in a row while doing that.
If anything, Hakeem is underrated, he has a case for being the best center ever[/QUOTE]
1. Centers can certainly be more dominant than Hakeem was...like Shaq and Kareem
2. Flawed logic. You are apparently saying that since Hakeem was a center, he didn't need to or couldn't dominate offensively like he could have. Well then okay, since Lebron is a SF, he can't dominate like a center could on defense.
Hakeem's two championship runs are much superior to LeBron, how can you begin to compare their teams? pauk with another out of context comparison and that's beside the BS variables he put together to compare them :facepalm
Whats funny to me is the fact that when people compare LBJ to legendary players, they usually just sum up their rings and mvps and say 'Let him get a bunch more and then we'll talk' and anyone who says Lebron is just a better basketball player gets laughed at.
Now Lebron is getting close to Hakeem in terms of achievements and the same fans are arguing 'Hakeem is just the better offensive and defensive player.'
Lacks some consistency.
[QUOTE=Kovach][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion[/url][/QUOTE]
This entire thread is full of this.
"Lebron not the best player in the league," "Lebron has 2 superstars on his team," and the classic, "Olajuwon wouldn't have won if Jordan hadn't left."
This entire forum is full of sh*t like this.
"Shaq carried Kobe to three rings," "Kobe was a lockdown perimeter defender in his prime," "Jordan couldn't win without Pippen," "Grant Hill was on his way to top-15 all time before he was injured," "Kobe was somehow not incredibly lucky to play in a huge market with a top-10 all time player."
No one actually seeks to prove anything here anymore.
[QUOTE=TheReturn]Whats funny to me is the fact that when people compare LBJ to legendary players, they usually just sum up their rings and mvps and say 'Let him get a bunch more and then we'll talk' and anyone who says Lebron is just a better basketball player gets laughed at.
Now Lebron is getting close to Hakeem in terms of achievements and the same fans are arguing 'Hakeem is just the better offensive and defensive player.'
Lacks some consistency.[/QUOTE]
Just ignore them. LeBron will surpass Kobe and Hakeem at the end of this season.
[QUOTE=dunksby]Hakeem's two championship runs are much superior to LeBron, how can you begin to compare their teams? pauk with another out of context comparison and that's beside the BS variables he put together to compare them :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Neither of Hakeem's championship runs were better than Lebron's run last season.
pauk's obsession with Lebron is quite weird and borderline homo, yet he never wants to admit it, despite talking about and defending him the whole time. I guess this causes stupid comments geared in Lebron's direction that aren't exactly true and obviously portray him as a far worse player than he is.
[QUOTE=Djahjaga]This entire thread is full of this.
"Lebron not the best player in the league," "Lebron has 2 superstars on his team," and the classic, "Olajuwon wouldn't have won if Jordan hadn't left."
This entire forum is full of sh*t like this.
"Shaq carried Kobe to three rings," "Kobe was a lockdown perimeter defender in his prime," "Jordan couldn't win without Pippen," "Grant Hill was on his way to top-15 all time before he was injured," "Kobe was somehow not incredibly lucky to play in a huge market with a top-10 all time player."
No one actually seeks to prove anything here anymore.[/QUOTE]
Can't we prove LeBron has 2 (or at least 1.5) superstars on his team?
Can't we prove his supporting cast is great (in terms of filling the holes created by a slasher like Bron... defenders and shooters)?
LeBron is an amazing player, but I wish people would jump off saying this is the best season in NBA history. I never once thought that about any player I watched and I saw MJ (albeit later MJ) and Shaq (in his prime.) I don't understand why everything has to be THE BEST. Why can't it just be amazing?
-Smak
Hakeem's never dominated the playoffs the way LeBron 2009 and LeBron 2012 did.
LeBron 2009: 35/9/7, 51% FG, 61.8% TS, 37.4 PER
LeBron 2012: 30/10/6, 50% FG, 57.6% TS, 30.3 PER
Hakeem was never that dominant, sorry. And the fact that he took a 6th seed to a title is supposed to be more impressive than LeBron leading a high seed? Please... prime LeBron never led teams to bad enough records that were only good enough FOR the 6th seed. That's a credit to LeBron. Not his fault his teams never underachieve in the regular season.
[QUOTE]Lebron didnt need for the actual best player in the world to take a vacation from the league [/QUOTE]
Are we really going here ?
[QUOTE=2010splash]Hakeem's never dominated the playoffs the way LeBron 2009 and LeBron 2012 did.
LeBron 2009: 35/9/7, 51% FG, 61.8% TS, 37.4 PER
LeBron 2012: 30/10/6, 50% FG, 57.6% TS, 30.3 PER
Hakeem was never that dominant, sorry. And the fact that he took a 6th seed to a title is supposed to be more impressive than LeBron leading a high seed? Please... prime LeBron never led teams to bad enough records that were only good enough FOR the 6th seed. That's a credit to LeBron. Not his fault his teams never underachieve in the regular season.[/QUOTE]
/End Thread.