Melo is averaging 4rpg, 1apg, and shooting 40% in this series.

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]Well Joe Johnson, no. He's not as good as the other three.

But Boozer and Griffin are.

Frankly, a lot of guys in this league are on the same level as Carmelo for the simple fact of knowing when NOT to shoot, and doing other things that contribute. Boozer and Griffin are both very good rebounders. Both pass the ball well. In fact Boozer averages the same number of assists per 14 shots taken that Carmelo does per 22 shots taken. Carmelo is a volume scoring shot jacker who is, to be frank, still dumb and immature. He's just a dumb person/player. Period.

Again, there are nights when Carmelo is a LIABILITY to his team. There are only a handful of guys in the league who play meaningful minutes that that can be said about. Those guys are all volume scorers and inherently overrated. If you go and look at adjusted stats, it always bears that out. Carmelo's impact on wins and losses is not equal to what most peoples impression is of him based on his "skills" scoring the basketball. Ball movement puts the ball in the basket just as often as volume chuckers. The Nuggets have finished with a better record in the west than he has with the knicks in the east both years since he left.

Griffin and Boozer are good, quality players, but clearly not studs. Just like Carmelo. Carmelo is not a stud. Lebron James is a stud. Dirk Nowitzki was a stud in the playoffs two years ago. Parker was a stud this year.

I don't know what you think makes Carmelo Anthony a tier above Griffin and Boozer.[/QUOTE]

There are games in which Boozer and Griffin are also liabilities. Melo makes the other team develop entire game plans around stopping him. Griffin and Boozer are afterthoughts....and afterthoughts that both struggle defensively and have limited games as well.

And Marc Gasol is not clearly better than Melo either.

I get the point you and the other guy are trying to make, but please...listing the likes of JJ/Griffin/Boozer are just really bad examples. Terrible really...

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]If we, as a basketball community, can't come to agreement that Carmelo Anthony is definitely better than the likes of Griffin, JJ, and Boozer...then debating anything is pointless.

:wtf:[/QUOTE]


I've seen you over rate Kobe, and for the exact same reasons you are overrating Carmelo.

He is not "responsible" for the Knicks have a good season this year. He was one guy who was part of a successful team. Boozer and Griffin were the same way. Carmelo Anthony is not some big difference maker. He's just not. He just makes more highlights than other guys because out of all the factors that contirbute to winning a basketball game, scoring happens to be the one that gets the most attention on sports center.

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]I've seen you over rate Kobe, and for the exact same reasons you are overrating Carmelo.

He is not "responsible" for the Knicks have a good season this year. He was one guy who was part of a successful team. Boozer and Griffin were the same way. Carmelo Anthony is not some big difference maker. He's just not. He just makes more highlights than other guys because out of all the factors that contirbute to winning a basketball game, scoring happens to be the one that gets the most attention on sports center.[/QUOTE]

april 2013

obvious alt

:facepalm

[QUOTE=NumberSix]I never said he wasn't.

LeBron is DEFINITELY better than Durant. They're still in the same tier.[/QUOTE]

Are there 25 players in your tier in which all these guys are in? That isn't a tier.

If you put Melo and JJ in the same tier....you are listing like 30 plus players. Honestly...where does Joe Johnson rank in the NBA in terms of the best players.

Is he top 40?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]If we, as a basketball community, can't come to agreement that Carmelo Anthony is definitely better than the likes of Griffin, JJ, and Boozer...then debating anything is pointless.

:wtf:[/QUOTE]

For the sake of simplicity let's just all agree he is the 10th to 15th best player in the league.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41][B]Are there 25 players in your tier in which all these guys are in? That isn't a tier.[/B]

If you put Melo and JJ in the same tier....you are listing like 30 plus players. Honestly...where does Joe Johnson rank in the NBA in terms of the best players.

Is he top 40?[/QUOTE]
I think it's fair. Basic A player, B players, C player, etc.

It's fair enough. It's not it a real ranking system or anything.

As for JJ. Yeah, I'd say he's a top 40 player in the NBA.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yea, but he's not in their tier. He's definitely in a higher tier than those guys. Definitely.[/QUOTE]

Imo he is in the same tier as Boozer etc. Melo, like Rose, is unfairly getting all of the credit for his team which mainly wins with team defense which he has nothing to do with in an attempt to artificially create a "superstar" with hype to generating ratings in a big market.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]There are games in which Boozer and Griffin are also liabilities. Melo makes the other team develop entire game plans around stopping him. Griffin and Boozer are afterthoughts....and afterthoughts that both struggle defensively and have limited games as well.

And Marc Gasol is not clearly better than Melo either.

I get the point you and the other guy are trying to make, but please...listing the likes of JJ/Griffin/Boozer are just really bad examples. Terrible really...[/QUOTE]


Carmelo is more talented than Boozer and Griffin. He SHOULD be easily a better player. But the way he plays, his low IQ basketball, compromises his overall impact.

I'm telling you man. The adjusted numbers ALWAYS reveal that guys like Carmelo do not nearly have the impact that most people think they do. They basically take shots that end up giving them credit for what the rest of the team could have done easily by moving the ball. And where is his impact in the other aspects? It's negligible. So therefore he's really not a huge difference maker.

Not everyone can pass and defend like Marc Gasol. The team itself can't compensate for having a guy like him being able to pass and defend from the post. The team itself can compensate for guys like Carmelo shooting 44%. That's just a fact. Plain and simple.

People who act like adjusted stats are worthless just hate them because it exposes their favorite player. They dont tell the whole story, but they tell more of it than raw stats. Carmelo is one of the players who sees the biggest drop from raw stats to adjusted stats. He's a really overrated player.

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]I've seen you over rate Kobe, and for the exact same reasons you are overrating Carmelo.

He is not "responsible" for the Knicks have a good season this year. He was one guy who was part of a successful team. Boozer and Griffin were the same way. Carmelo Anthony is not some big difference maker. He's just not. He just makes more highlights than other guys because out of all the factors that contirbute to winning a basketball game, scoring happens to be the one that gets the most attention on sports center.[/QUOTE]

Just to get this straight. You are using "highlights" as the reason Melo is known to be an elite player...and then turning around and talking about Griffin.

Is there a player in the league that benefits more from highlights than Griffin?

WTF are you talking about?

Yea...Kobe wasn't the driving force on the Lakers. They looked great without him against the Spurs...and their offense was amazing.

I've now heard it all. Melo is on the same tier as Joe Johnson and Carlos Boozer.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]I think it's fair. Basic A player, B players, C player, etc.

It's fair enough. It's not it a real ranking system or anything.

As for JJ. Yeah, I'd say he's a top 40 player in the NBA.[/QUOTE]

And where you do rank Melo? Let's say JJ is the 35th best player in the league...that honestly is probably high, but for argument sake that is fine.

Where does Melo rank for you?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]There are games in which Boozer and Griffin are also liabilities. Melo makes the other team develop entire game plans around stopping him. Griffin and Boozer are afterthoughts....and afterthoughts that both struggle defensively and have limited games as well.

And Marc Gasol is not clearly better than Melo either.

I get the point you and the other guy are trying to make, but please...listing the likes of JJ/Griffin/Boozer are just really bad examples. Terrible really...[/QUOTE]

Marc Gasol is easily better than Melo. Volume low efficiency no defense chuckers like Melo are extremely overrated.

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]Carmelo is more talented than Boozer and Griffin. He SHOULD be easily a better player. But the way he plays, his low IQ basketball, compromises his overall impact.

I'm telling you man. The adjusted numbers ALWAYS reveal that guys like Carmelo do not nearly have the impact that most people think they do. They basically take shots that end up giving them credit for what the rest of the team could have done easily by moving the ball. And where is his impact in the other aspects? It's negligible. So therefore he's really not a huge difference maker.

Not everyone can pass and defend like Marc Gasol. The team itself can't compensate for having a guy like him being able to pass and defend from the post. The team itself can compensate for guys like Carmelo shooting 44%. That's just a fact. Plain and simple.

People who act like adjusted stats are worthless just hate them because it exposes their favorite player. They dont tell the whole story, but they tell more of it than raw stats. Carmelo is one of the players who sees the biggest drop from raw stats to adjusted stats. He's a really overrated player.[/QUOTE]

I agree he is over-rated...but that doesn't make guys like Boozer and JJ and Griffin as good as him.

And you keep using Marc Gasol...why? He does things those other guys don't. Like actually defend and pass the ball well...etc.

Wow...April 2013 has never been more appropriate.

[QUOTE=secund2nun]Marc Gasol is easily better than Melo. Volume low efficiency no defense chuckers like Melo are extremely overrated.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't argue too much over that one....certainly more reasonable than Boozer/Griffin/JJ:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Just to get this straight. You are using "highlights" as the reason Melo is known to be an elite player...and then turning around and talking about Griffin.

Is there a player in the league that benefits more from highlights than Griffin?

WTF are you talking about?

[B]Yea...Kobe wasn't the driving force on the Lakers. They looked great without him against the Spurs...and their offense was amazing.[/B]

I've now heard it all. Melo is on the same tier as Joe Johnson and Carlos Boozer.[/QUOTE]
Not really an honest comparison. The Spurs are a great team. It's not like the Lakers WITH Kobe this season were routinely beating quality opponents. Kobe-less Lakers beat the spurs before the playoffs. Doesn't mean anything. Lakers would have been swept with or without Kobe.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Just to get this straight. You are using "highlights" as the reason Melo is known to be an elite player...and then turning around and talking about Griffin.

Is there a player in the league that benefits more from highlights than Griffin?

WTF are you talking about?

Yea...Kobe wasn't the driving force on the Lakers. They looked great without him against the Spurs...and their offense was amazing.

I've now heard it all. Melo is on the same tier as Joe Johnson and Carlos Boozer.[/QUOTE]

You are really overrating scoring. I value scoring, but high efficiency scoring. Melo's low efficiency scoring is useless and often times destructive, not to mention his bad D.

LA looked about as bad this playoffs as they did the last 2 playoffs when Kobe played including getting swept by Dallas. SA would have swept them with Kobe as well just like Dallas did 2 years ago or how OKC did in 5 last season to LA.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I wouldn't argue too much over that one....certainly more reasonable than Boozer/Griffin/JJ:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]

I think you are underrating Griffin. He developed a nice post game and has been a great passer/improved defender this year. I wouldn't call comparing him to Melo absurd (although Melo is clearly better), while I would consider comparing Melo to JJ/Boozer laughable.

[QUOTE=secund2nun]You are really overrating scoring. I value scoring, but high efficiency scoring. Melo's low efficiency scoring is useless and often times destructive, not to mention his bad D.

LA looked about as bad this playoffs as they did the last 2 playoffs when Kobe played including getting swept by Dallas. SA would have swept them with Kobe as well just like Dallas did 2 years ago or how OKC did in 5 last season to LA.[/QUOTE]

Maybe Melo's efficiency is destructive if you're comparing him to Lebron. But if you are comparing Melo's efficiency to the efficiency to the Knick's without Melo, then Melo's contested 3s are much more efficient over the long haul than Raymond Felton creating for the team.

Team's have to shoot the ball eventually, and if no one can create a good shot, having a guy like Melo is a huge asset.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Not really an honest comparison. The Spurs are a great team. It's not like the Lakers WITH Kobe this season were routinely beating quality opponents. Kobe-less Lakers beat the spurs before the playoffs. Doesn't mean anything. Lakers would have been swept with or without Kobe.[/QUOTE]
They were 26-12 with Kobe to close the season and started playing legit defense once Dwight got healthier. Their offense was top 6-8 all year and plummeted to some of the worst Laker offenses in recent time without him after his injury. Definitely not a guaranteed sweep with him.

[QUOTE=secund2nun]You are really overrating scoring. I value scoring, but high efficiency scoring. Melo's low efficiency scoring is useless and often times destructive, not to mention his bad D.

LA looked about as bad this playoffs as they did the last 2 playoffs when Kobe played including getting swept by Dallas. SA would have swept them with Kobe as well just like Dallas did 2 years ago or how OKC did in 5 last season to LA.[/QUOTE]

But you are comparing him to other guys that have just as many weaknesses and don't demand the kind of attention Melo does.

JJ is less efficient and scores much less...8 point less per game in the playoffs I think. What does JJ do that puts him on the same tier as Melo? The answer is nothing.

Boozer is a nice complimentary piece, but he's not the caliber of player Melo is. And if you are going to use Melo's defense...Boozer is hardly a great defender himself. All Boozer does well on defense is rebound.

Griffin is easily the best player out of the 3 you guys have mentioned...and even then Melo is clearly the better player right now. You talk about efficiency? Griffin is shooting 44% in the playoffs this year. And his rebounding is just not good either. He can't stretch the floor and he's an average defender at best. He does nothing to make other teams scared and game plan around.

I totally agree that Melo is over-rated...been saying it for years. But don't over correct and start comparing him to players that he is clearly better than.

[QUOTE=chazzy]They were 26-12 with Kobe to close the season and started playing legit defense once Dwight got healthier. Their offense was top 6-8 all year and plummeted to some of the worst Laker offenses in recent time without him after his injury. Definitely not a guaranteed sweep with him.[/QUOTE]

Most of those wins came against subpar teams also that was a regular season. They lose in 4-5 with Kobe to the Spurs (most likely 4 games). They got destroyed with Kobe in 5 last year by OKC and in 4 by Dallas in 2011.

[QUOTE=Psycho]Maybe Melo's efficiency is destructive if you're comparing him to Lebron. But if you are comparing Melo's efficiency to the efficiency to the Knick's without Melo, then Melo's contested 3s are much more efficient over the long haul than Raymond Felton creating for the team.

Team's have to shoot the ball eventually, and if no one can create a good shot, having a guy like Melo is a huge asset.[/QUOTE]

I'd say its just destructive period. I'd rather just play team ball and go from there instead of forcing the offense through a player who is not good enough to have it forced through. If he were Lebron or Durant then you can force the offense through them, but not Melo.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]But you are comparing him to other guys that have just as many weaknesses and don't demand the kind of attention Melo does.

JJ is less efficient and scores much less...8 point less per game in the playoffs I think. What does JJ do that puts him on the same tier as Melo? The answer is nothing.

Boozer is a nice complimentary piece, but he's not the caliber of player Melo is. And if you are going to use Melo's defense...Boozer is hardly a great defender himself. All Boozer does well on defense is rebound.

Griffin is easily the best player out of the 3 you guys have mentioned...and even then Melo is clearly the better player right now. You talk about efficiency? Griffin is shooting 44% in the playoffs this year. And his rebounding is just not good either. He can't stretch the floor and he's an average defender at best. He does nothing to make other teams scared and game plan around.

I totally agree that Melo is over-rated...been saying it for years. But don't over correct and start comparing him to players that he is clearly better than.[/QUOTE]

In terms of those players I do believe Melo is a tier above JJ, but I put him in the same tier as Boozer and Griffin. Even if he is better than those 2 I don't think he has shown anything to be a tier above them.

Blake has been shooting poorly this series, but he is going up against the DPOY and is getting beat up by z-bo. Blake shot 54% in the regular season and 55% last season. Also he shot 53% in the playoffs vs memphis last year.

I'd rather take Blake over Melo because Blake is a better complimentary player so yes I consider him a better player. Melo is in no man's land. He is not good enough to be the man and have the offense centered around him, but his style and bad habits make him a terrible complementary player as he will just jack many shots up and disrupt the offense and his scoring has low efficiency and the only other thing he can do aside from low efficiency scoring is rebound. Blake is a decent rebounder, passer, can give you a decent amount of points on pretty good efficiency.

How can you say Melo and Boozer are in the same tier with a straight face? Maybe if you're only basing it on the past 5 games..

[QUOTE=secund2nun]In terms of those players I do believe Melo is a tier above JJ, but I put him in the same tier as Boozer and Griffin. Even if he is better than those 2 I don't think he has shown anything to be a tier above them.

Blake has been shooting poorly this series, but he is going up against the DPOY and is getting beat up by z-bo. Blake shot 54% in the regular season and 55% last season. Also he shot 53% in the playoffs vs memphis last year.

I'd rather take Blake over Melo because Blake is a better complimentary player so yes I consider him a better player. Melo is in no man's land. He is not good enough to be the man and have the offense centered around him, but his style and bad habits make him a terrible complementary player as he will just jack many shots up and disrupt the offense and his scoring has low efficiency and the only other thing he can do aside from low efficiency scoring is rebound. Blake is a decent rebounder, passer, can give you a decent amount of points on pretty good efficiency.[/QUOTE]

Griffin is certainly the closest to Melo in that group, but I also think a lot of what you say about Melo might change with an elite playmaker like Paul on his team.

And if we are talking about the past. Melo had a very nice playoff run in 2009 on good efficiency overall.

Yes...I also have said that Melo can't be the best player on a title winning team. But I wouldn't take it as far as you do...D-Rose and Melo would make a pretty lethal combo similar to Westbrook and Durant...and I certainly think that pairing, along with the right supporting cast...could challenge for the title.

30 points on 27 shots at 38%. GOAT scorer.

You guys...overreacting to every bad game

The first 3 games Melo was averaging something like 35ppg @ 56 TS%. Now he has two bad shooting nights and he's awful? I'm betting he wont't stay cold for 3 straight games. Not him.

[QUOTE=aj1987]30 points on 27 shots at 38%. GOAT scorer.[/QUOTE]
Mvp stuff right here

146 shots on 6 assists for melo

Typical Melo, nothing to see here.

[QUOTE=Element]You guys...overreacting to every bad game

The first 3 games Melo was averaging something like 35ppg @ 56 TS%. Now he has two bad shooting nights and he's awful? I'm betting he wont't stay cold for 3 straight games. Not him.[/QUOTE]

That's how it is until you prove yourself. Usually takes a championship, or a really dominant consistent run.

[QUOTE=Crafty]Mvp stuff right here[/QUOTE]

didnt iverson win an MVP with similar numbers?

[QUOTE=f0und]didnt iverson win an MVP with similar numbers?[/QUOTE]
31.4 ppg on 40% with 5.5 apg

[QUOTE=secund2nun]I'd say its just destructive period. I'd rather just play [B]team ball [/B]and go from there instead of forcing the offense through a player who is not good enough to have it forced through. If he were Lebron or Durant then you can force the offense through them, but not Melo.[/QUOTE]

team ball is kinda overrated imo

the most unselfish, best passing team in the league (the spurs), still has to lean pretty heavily on parker, ginobili (less this year) and duncan to get the defense out of position.

The sad thing is, when he does show up, no one says a word.

This is Melo, this is what he does. You can see guys motivation dwindle when he just dribbles around and hoists up a shot...People who play with ballhogs in real life would understand. Even if he is scoring everytime, nobody else can get a rhythm so of course they will clank shots when they finally get them and will give less effort on defense, less help defense, more uncontested drives to the hoop, less diving for loose balls, less making the extra pass...Why make the extra pass if you know it will just stick when it gets in Melo's hands?

[QUOTE=3LiftHeatCurse]146 shots on 6 assists for melo[/QUOTE]

No way this is true. :no: That's... just... unheard of!

[QUOTE=chips93]team ball is kinda overrated imo

the most unselfish, best passing team in the league (the spurs), still has to lean pretty heavily on parker, ginobili (less this year) and duncan to get the defense out of position.[/QUOTE]
The difference is, if you move the ball, run some plays, set some screens and THEN get it back, the defense will be moving and out of position, giving you a cleaner look. With Melo, he gets the ball, dribbles, dribbles, and either hoists up a contested jumper or passes to someone like Shumpert who gives it right back WITHOUT much player movement, screens being set or anything. Thats the difference I see when watching the Knicks and Spurs. Even Miami has great ball movement even if it does end up back in Lebron's hands, he's moved the defense, maybe caused a switch, now they have mismatches...I don't see the Knicks do any of these, I never see them create mismatches. There offense is Melo, JR Smith and everyone else. Even when Felton scores, it feels like he's tired of not getting shots and just makes up his mind and forces his way to the basket or just pulls up and shoot a three. None of the Knicks scoring seems like its predicated on true ball movement or a truly effective offensive system and that is why I don't think they can beat defenses like Miami or Indiana in a playoff series. If Rondo was healthy, they would not even beat Boston because of Boston's defense.

His game is scoring. Not sure why people look into stats so intensely. If Lebrom James avg a triple double while being efficient only to get swept from a playoff series? Your stat argument changes and isnt consistent at all.

[I]"stat whore"
"stat padding"
"only cares about stats *insert bron t shirt photo*"
"no killer instinct, not a winner"[/I]

I'm sure I'm leaving other stuff out. But now the stats dont matter. Here we ave Carmelo and you guys want certain stat criteria met. Is Carmelo arguably the best scorer? Yes. Has his scoring helped the NYK? Yes. He gets paid to score.

Now how he chooses to score in games can without a doubt be questioned. Much like the jacking up ill advised 3's. When in reality he cant be guarded in the post. I know I know if he avg more assists then his teammates would get involved and score. Thus helping NYK win. Carmelo has never been the playmaker where his assists are creating the kind of scoring opportunities that open up an offense. He's no Lebron. He's not facilitating the offense.

Better shot selection?
More work on the low block given his size/strength/low post ability?

Yes those are things he needs to improve which were clearly missing the last 2 games NYK lost.

[QUOTE=Dro]The difference is, if you move the ball, run some plays, set some screens and THEN get it back, the defense will be moving and out of position, giving you a cleaner look. With Melo, he gets the ball, dribbles, dribbles, and either hoists up a contested jumper or passes to someone like Shumpert who gives it right back WITHOUT much player movement, screens being set or anything.Thats the difference I see when watching the Knicks and Spurs. Even Miami has great ball movement even if it does end up back in Lebron's hands, he's moved the defense, maybe caused a switch, now they have mismatches...I don't see the Knicks do any of these, I never see them create mismatches. There offense is Melo, JR Smith and everyone else. Even when Felton scores, it feels like he's tired of not getting shots and just makes up his mind and forces his way to the basket or just pulls up and shoot a three. None of the Knicks scoring seems like its predicated on true ball movement or a truly effective offensive system and that is why I don't think they can beat defenses like Miami or Indiana in a playoff series. If Rondo was healthy, they would not even beat Boston because of Boston's defense.[/QUOTE]

yeah, i mean i agree, if the knicks could utilise melo, with ball movement, that would be ideal.

but the guy i quoted said that they would be better off without melo. if you are running plays, you still need some playmaker to create opening, that good ball movement can take advantage of.

you still need that catalyst, and without melo, the knicks wouldnt have that catalyst.

[QUOTE=GOBB]His game is scoring. Not sure why people look into stats so intensely. If Lebrom James avg a triple double while being efficient only to get swept from the NBA Finals? Your stat argument changes and isnt consistent at all.

[I]"stat whore"
"stat padding"
"only cares about stats *insert bron t shirt photo*"
"no killer instinct, not a winner"[/I]

I'm sure I'm leaving other stuff out. But now the stats dont matter. Here we ave Carmelo and you guys want certain stat criteria met. Is Carmelo arguably the best scorer? Yes. Has his scoring helped the NYK? Yes. He gets paid to score.

Now how he chooses to score in games can without a doubt be questioned. Much like the jacking up ill advised 3's. When in reality he cant be guarded in the post. I know I know if he avg more assists then his teammates would get involved and score. Thus helping NYK win. Carmelo has never been the playmaker where his assists are creating the kind of scoring opportunities that open up an offense. He's no Lebron. He's not facilitating the offense.

Better shot selection?
More work on the low block given his size/strength/low post ability?

Yes those are things he needs to improve which were clearly missing the last 2 games NYK lost.[/QUOTE]
Its not about the stats, its about the style of play which will result in him having higher stats in certain areas. Its more about the style of play being reflected in his stats rather than just being about stats and ignoring whether their style of play is working or not. To me, their style just does not work in the long term but I guess thats still yet to proven. Hell, maybe they'll win the championship for all we know. Time will tell...