#apples2oranges

I don't agree with that post, I'm pretty sure '85 Jordan - '89 Jordan paired up with '97 - 2004 Shaq wins multiple rings. Jordan coming into the league was flat out much better player, and made much more impact than Kobe did from '97 - 2000, and Shaq was peaking.

Kobe's career situation is very confusing, though. Which makes ranking him very difficult. He played an awesome second fiddle to Shaq winning three rings, but his production in 2001 almost makes him an equal to Shaquille O'Neal. One could make the argument he was not a sidekick that season.

His most productive or eye popping statistical years individually (2003 excluded) came in his absolute PEAK as a player on bad teams 27 - 30 years old on the 2006, 2007, and 2008 Lakers.

Jordan at his absolute peak '90, '91, '92 and '93 of the same ages was formatting his game to championship contenders, while trying to be a selfless team leader and utility player. Not going on scoring binges, when he was obviously at his absolute best as a player.

Kobe was the best from a leader perspective in 2008 and 2009. He finally got it. He finally seemed mature. He actually finally struck a balance in his game (2008 at least) ... He involved teammates, was trusting, gregarious, and didn't rule over them with an iron fist.

It seems since LeBron won MVP in 2009, thereafter Kobe relentlessly gunned to try and prove he was still an MVP caliber player. Probably because he knew from a legacy perspective, he needed more MVP trophies.

This is where Kobe's need to prove people wrong takes a turn for the worse, because he focuses on the trees and not the forrest. Even more noticeable the past two seasons when his burden should be easing with advanced age and regressing abilities, he should be more of a zen like cerebral team leader by delegating to teammates the way MJ did in '97 and '98 at comparable ages. It seems like he regressed mentally as a leader at times.


[QUOTE=SpecialQue]This is an instance where Kobe's competitive streak works against him. Because of his mentality, he modeled his game on someone who is widely considered the greatest player of all time. But because of his competitiveness, he not only wanted to play as well as Jordan, but wanted to surpass him. Even if he's older and wiser now, this is a situation that he created for himself, since no one else really gets as many Jordan comparisons as Kobe does. Now that his basketball career is nearing its end, I'm sure he sees the downside to giving himself a nearly impossible goal, even though he got 5 rings from this obsession.[/QUOTE]
Precisely, by using MJ as the standard of what he was trying to achieve, it became both a blessing and curse. He gets the comparisons to MJ, but he can never truly surpass him because he always comes off as a clone. It pushed him to greatness, but by trying to be so forcibly like MJ, he capped his ultimate potential. Where as say LeBron used MJ as inspiration (as we all did) ... but he ultimately plays his own game.

Phil completely destroyed Kobe in his book. Lol!!! "[I]Kobe forces the action. When his shot isn't falling he will pound away relentlessly[/I]." :oldlol:

Sorry Kobe, Phil's criticisms had NOTHING to do w/ Shaq.

But wait, Kobe stans like to gloat about his 5 rings compared to Lebron's 1. Didn't they have #differentcareerpaths considering Kobe was drafted into Los Angeles with Shaq while Lebron was in shithole Cleveland for 7 years? #applesandoranges

Jordan with Kobe's career path would be pretty unfair. Jordan/Shaq from 97-04' would have torn up the league in a way that hasn't been seen since the 60's Celtics.

Speaking in terms of the most likely outcome, bolded are most likely championship years.

Lakers:
[B]1997 - Shaq/85 MJ[/B] Shaq best player
1998 - Shaq/86' MJ
[B]1999 - Shaq/87' MJ[/B] Shaq best player
[B]2000 - Shaq/ 88' MJ[/B] Shaq best player
[B]2001 - Shaq/ 89' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2002 - Shaq/ 90' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2003 - Shaq/ 91' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2004 - Shaq/ 92' MJ/ Malone/ GP[/B] Jordan best player
2005 - 93' MJ - Ridiculous stats
2006 - DNP
2007 - DNP
[B]2008 - 96' Jordan/ Gasol[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2009 - 97' Jordan/ Gasol [/B]Jordan best player
[B]2010 - 98' Jordan/ Gasol[/B] Jordan best player

10 Championships :eek: That's just insane, though a lot of that timing with when Jordan retired and Kobe's team's sucking is pure luck.

Bulls:
1985 - 97' Kobe
1986 - 98' Kobe
1987 - 99' Kobe
1988 - 00' Kobe
1989 - 01' Kobe/ Pip
1990 - 02' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1991 - 03' Kobe/ Pip[/B] Kobe best player
1992 - 04' Kobe/ Pip
1993 - 05' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1994 - 06' Kobe/ Pip/ Grant[/B] Kobe best player
1995 - 07' Kobe/ Pip Kobe best player
[B]1996 - 08' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1997 - 09' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1998 - 10' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
1999 - 11' Kobe
2000 - 12' Kobe
2001 - 13' Kobe

Kobe would have still had major success with those Bulls teams, in all likelihood we're looking at 5 championships with 5 FMVP, better than what he has now. Like with Jordan, a lot of it's timing, but still. This really puts Kobe's longevity in perspective with Jordan's. Even without an early retirement, he still outlasts him by 3 years and counting.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]I don't agree with that post, I'm pretty sure '85 Jordan - '89 Jordan paired up with '97 - 2004 Shaq wins multiple rings. Jordan coming into the league was flat out much better player, and made much more impact than Kobe did from '97 - 2000, and Shaq was peaking.

Kobe's career situation is very confusing, though. Which makes ranking him very difficult. He played an awesome second fiddle to Shaq winning three rings, but his production in 2001 almost makes him an equal to Shaquille O'Neal. One could make the argument he was not a sidekick that season.

His most productive or eye popping statistical years individually (2003 excluded) came in his absolute PEAK as a player on bad teams 27 - 30 years old on the 2006, 2007, and 2008 Lakers.

Jordan at his absolute peak '90, '91, '92 and '93 of the same ages was formatting his game to championship contenders, while trying to be a selfless team leader and utility player. Not going on scoring binges, when he was obviously at his absolute best as a player.

Kobe was the best from a leader perspective in 2008 and 2009. He finally got it. He finally seemed mature. He actually finally struck a balance in his game (2008 at least) ... He involved teammates, was trusting, gregarious, and didn't rule over them with an iron fist.

It seems since LeBron won MVP in 2009, thereafter Kobe relentlessly gunned to try and prove he was still an MVP caliber player. Probably because he knew from a legacy perspective, he needed more MVP trophies.

This is where Kobe's need to prove people wrong takes a turn for the worse, because he focuses on the trees and not the forrest. Even more noticeable the past two seasons when his burden should be easing with advanced age and regressing abilities, he should be more of a zen like cerebral team leader by delegating to teammates the way MJ did in '97 and '98 at comparable ages. It seems like he regressed mentally as a leader at times.[/QUOTE]


- 85' MJ was already 21 - 22 years old....

Kobe at 21 years old was also winning titles....

again this about MJ coming straight into the league as a unknown rookie playing with Prime Shaq...

MJ's numbers take a huge hit and Shaq is easily taking the majority of the shots.



your whole post makes no sense when looking at the context of what Kobe was talking about.....

- even a 18 year old Jordan was no where near Kobe's abilty ( according to MJ himeself)....and no way 18 year old MJ with Shaq win any titles...

- it would have took MJ at least 3- 4 seasons to develop his game.....heck it took MJ 5 seasons to develop a reliable midrange game. ( something he could fall back on when teams took away his slashing game)

[QUOTE=buddha]And Kobe is a fcuking idiot for saying the comparisons are apples to oranges, they are as fcuking close to apples to apples as you can get.

- Same height (6'6")
- Same position (SG)
- Stacked teams (Pippen/Shaq)
- Same HC (Phil Jackson)

The only difference is that Kobe wasn't the best player on his stacked team, where Jordan was... And Michael would still be the best player if Shaq was his teammate.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for this post. The next time I see a Lebron terd say that Kobe does not compare to Jordan, i will link this post. Not that you are anybody of importance, but you may just be a Kobe-hater or Lebron stan, so its a win-win for me. Again, thank you for this post. At least now we know it is common sense to think Kobe IS comparable to Jordan and Lebron stans just kid themselves when they say he isnt.

[QUOTE=Poochymama]Jordan with Kobe's career path would be pretty unfair. Jordan/Shaq from 97-04' would have torn up the league in a way that hasn't been seen since the 60's Celtics.

Speaking in terms of the most likely outcome, bolded are most likely championship years.

Lakers:
[B]1997 - Shaq/85 MJ[/B] Shaq best player
1998 - Shaq/86' MJ
[B]1999 - Shaq/87' MJ[/B] Shaq best player
[B]2000 - Shaq/ 88' MJ[/B] Shaq best player
[B]2001 - Shaq/ 89' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2002 - Shaq/ 90' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2003 - Shaq/ 91' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2004 - Shaq/ 92' MJ/ Malone/ GP[/B] Jordan best player
2005 - 93' MJ - Ridiculous stats
2006 - DNP
2007 - DNP
[B]2008 - 96' Jordan/ Gasol[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2009 - 97' Jordan/ Gasol [/B]Jordan best player
[B]2010 - 98' Jordan/ Gasol[/B] Jordan best player

10 Championships :eek: That's just insane, though a lot of that timing with when Jordan retired and Kobe's team's sucking is pure luck.

Bulls:
1985 - 97' Kobe
1986 - 98' Kobe
1987 - 99' Kobe
1988 - 00' Kobe
1989 - 01' Kobe/ Pip
1990 - 02' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1991 - 03' Kobe/ Pip[/B] Kobe best player
1992 - 04' Kobe/ Pip
1993 - 05' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1994 - 06' Kobe/ Pip/ Grant[/B] Kobe best player
1995 - 07' Kobe/ Pip Kobe best player
[B]1996 - 08' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1997 - 09' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1998 - 10' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
1999 - 11' Kobe
2000 - 12' Kobe
2001 - 13' Kobe

Kobe would have still had major success with those Bulls teams, in all likelihood we're looking at 5 championships with 5 FMVP, better than what he has now. Like with Jordan, a lot of it's timing, but still. This really puts Kobe's longevity in perspective with Jordan's. Even without an early retirement, he still outlasts him by 3 years and counting.[/QUOTE]
Great breakdown ... both Kobe and MJ would've saw success if they were interchanged. I do believe MJ would've seen significantly more dominant success, though. Less personal need for on court ego with Shaq. Given MJ would've instantly made more impact than Kobe, he wouldn't need to over play his cards of insecurity to PROVE himself the way Kobe felt compelled to ... ultimately killing the duo's chemistry with Shaq long term.

An MJ / Shaq combo would be truly frightening. I think 10 titles is realistic actually. I think Kobe would've won around 4 rings max ('91 and '98 being no-go's for Kobe b/c those rings were won unique to what MJ brought to the table) in comparison with those Bulls rosters, and with Pippen being his second best player. And 4 rings is being nice, considering I'm questionable about Kobe being able to lead the '92 and '93 Bulls past the '92 Knicks, '92 Blazers, and especially the '93 Knicks and '93 Suns. Those seasons '91, '92, '93, and '98 were won based off specific intangibles and skills MJ brings that Kobe just can't replicate. I think 2 - 3 rings of Kobe on the Bulls is more realistic. Kobe probably puts them over the top in '94.

But in regards to longevity between MJ and Kobe.

MJ very clearly was still near his peak and prime in '94 and '95 if he played. Especially if he didn't get out of bball shape with his baseball sabbatical. '94 being the probable last year of his peak abilities. '96 being the last year of his true prime, IMO.

You don't think MJ playing full seasons in '94 and '95, and still the best or arguably the best player in '98 at 35 years old ... couldn't have aged gracefully and kept playing the three seasons he missed in '99, 2000, 2001 and still retired in 2003?

That puts him at 19 seasons compared to Kobe's current 17 seasons. MJ clearly had the ability to play in '99, 2000, and 2001 ... still being an elite player. But MJ at that point didn't want to play if it wasn't going to be in a Chicago uniform, if Pip and PJ weren't going to be there, and if they weren't competing for rings every season.

You don't think MJ could've played those seasons?

[QUOTE=maybeshewill13]:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: how dare people mention KoMe's name in the same sentence as the great MJ.[/QUOTE]
Michael Jordan = Jordan = 6 Rings on 6 NBA Finals appearances
Magic Johnson = 5 Rings on 9 NBA Finals appearances

Jordan = 6 Finals MVP on 6 NBA Finals appearances
Magic = 3 Finals MVP on 9 NBA Finals appearances

Magic shouldn't be mention in the same sentence as Jordan neither.

[QUOTE=willds09][IMG]http://blacksportsonline.com/index/kobe-jordan.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
They look fat AF.

[QUOTE=DetroitPistonFan]Michael Jordan = Jordan = 6 Rings on 6 NBA Finals appearances
Magic Johnson = 5 Rings on 9 NBA Finals appearances

Jordan = 6 Finals MVP on 6 NBA Finals appearances
Magic = 3 Finals MVP on 9 NBA Finals appearances

Magic shouldn't be mention in the same sentence as Jordan neither.[/QUOTE]


Now this nikka wanna put down Magic to just to bring MJ down to Kobe's level.

Sit yo ass down, son.

[QUOTE=sportjames23]Now this nikka wanna put down Magic to just to bring MJ down to Kobe's level.

Sit yo ass down, son.[/QUOTE]
It's facts but I hate all of them.

There is far too much emphasis on career achievements, which sadly seems to be the overpowering barometer of greatness here.

MJ is greater than Kobe because he's a better player. That greatness translated itself to dominance in the form of multiple rings and MVPs, but they're not even necessary to see that MJ is better than Kobe. In his prime, he was more athletic, had a better midrange shot and was a superior defender. All Kobe has on MJ is the better long range stroke. However, as his career progressed, MJ developed his 3 point shot and became more skilled with his lost athleticism.

That's all I need to know.

[QUOTE=Poochymama]Jordan with Kobe's career path would be pretty unfair. Jordan/Shaq from 97-04' would have torn up the league in a way that hasn't been seen since the 60's Celtics.

Speaking in terms of the most likely outcome, bolded are most likely championship years.

Lakers:
[B]1997 - Shaq/85 MJ[/B] Shaq best player
1998 - Shaq/86' MJ
[B]1999 - Shaq/87' MJ[/B] Shaq best player
[B]2000 - Shaq/ 88' MJ[/B] Shaq best player
[B]2001 - Shaq/ 89' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2002 - Shaq/ 90' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2003 - Shaq/ 91' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2004 - Shaq/ 92' MJ/ Malone/ GP[/B] Jordan best player
2005 - 93' MJ - Ridiculous stats
2006 - DNP
2007 - DNP
[B]2008 - 96' Jordan/ Gasol[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2009 - 97' Jordan/ Gasol [/B]Jordan best player
[B]2010 - 98' Jordan/ Gasol[/B] Jordan best player

10 Championships :eek: That's just insane, though a lot of that timing with when Jordan retired and Kobe's team's sucking is pure luck.

Bulls:
1985 - 97' Kobe
1986 - 98' Kobe
1987 - 99' Kobe
1988 - 00' Kobe
1989 - 01' Kobe/ Pip
1990 - 02' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1991 - 03' Kobe/ Pip[/B] Kobe best player
1992 - 04' Kobe/ Pip
1993 - 05' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1994 - 06' Kobe/ Pip/ Grant[/B] Kobe best player
1995 - 07' Kobe/ Pip Kobe best player
[B]1996 - 08' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1997 - 09' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1998 - 10' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
1999 - 11' Kobe
2000 - 12' Kobe
2001 - 13' Kobe

[B]Kobe would have still had major success with those Bulls teams, in all likelihood we're looking at 5 championships with 5 FMVP, better than what he has now.[/B] Like with Jordan, a lot of it's timing, but still. This really puts Kobe's longevity in perspective with Jordan's. Even without an early retirement, he still outlasts him by 3 years and counting.[/QUOTE]

Interesting predictions Poochy, although I strongly disagree with the bolded part. The only thing that will always remain a mystery, however, is we will never know what kind of player Kobe would have been, without Jordan as a blue print. That's another curse that he's gonna have to live with it, because he painted himself into a corner where even youngsters are now calling him a "wannabe Jordan" based on them checking out video clips, and having older relatives who school them to the real origins of Kobe's game.

I can honestly see Kobe in the Clyde Drexler, Penny Hardaway, Prime Sprewell group of players, had he came into the league in the mid 80s. He would have been good, but not nearly as good had he not had Jordan to "push" him emotionally, having already laid his own Legacy down with a game clinching steal and shot to win his final ring.

Jordan, I believe, would have still been just as fundamentally sound, because he actually respects great coaching. The flip side for him, however, would be, would we have seen the "BEST MJ" that we got to see, meaning the version with "something to prove" constantly? Or would we have seen a content 23/5/5 version, on good efficiency, who never had a need to stand out?

There's a lot of variables that go into what motivates a person in a certain direction. The scary part, by all accounts on MJ's history, is that Basketball wasn't even his favorite sport growing up, like it was for Kobe. He just used it as an outlet to fulfill his competitive desires, where as Kobe used the game to define his whole character, seemingly. It's gotta hurt, knowing that as he gets older, that the game that he spent more than half of his life playing, and fighting to be the best at, will never see him as the "Greatest".

But hey, 5 rings right?

If Jordan got drafted into a team with prime Shaq in it he would have had 10 rings by now.

Kobe tried so hard during his career to act, speak, and be competitive like Jordan. Now all of a sudden he doesn't want to be compared? It's a little late for that you f*cking hypocrite.

Gotta love and laugh Kobe's arrogance. :lol

He devalues Phil's opinion, blames Shaq's dominance for his inability to be the #1 on that 3-peat run, and questions Jordan's #1 option ability if he was playing with another All-Time Top 10 player-----all in one single tweet. LMAO.

[QUOTE=MJ(Mean John)]Hate it or love it, KB has a point.

If mike came in the league out of HS and was playing with the most dominant force ever and played in Phil's system,

And

Kobe came in after playing college ball and had great players and a great system (similar to 09/10) and his whole career he played with someone of SP level along with a great supporting cast

It would be different. Nobody is saying kobe would be better or anything. I'm not saying that, simply saying that it would be different.

Let's be real, an 18 yr out of HS would be shaqs #2 option too.
Look at Kobe's numbers on those 3 peats. Compare them to the numbers he put them as a #1 option. Imagine if M was sharing the ball with shaq.


So he has a point. In terms of careers, apples and oranges.

You don't know if playing with shaq made a positive, negative, or neutral impact on Kobe's career/talent and to what extent the same way we don't know what playing in M's situation would have done for Kb[/QUOTE]

Why should we assume Jordan doesn't go to college and Kobe does though? That has nothing to do with circumstance unlike who they get drafted by. Those were choices they made, not circusmtances they were forced into. Why should we assume they make different choices? It's not Jordan's fault Kobe didn't go to college and wasn't better prepared for the NBA, which is basically what Phil is saying. If we are going to speculate this drastic of a change in their career paths, then we are basically changing who they actually are as players.

Fvck off Chuckbe, you ain't no MJ. Be glad you got them rings gifted to you.

[QUOTE=guy]Why should we assume Jordan doesn't go to college and Kobe does though? That has nothing to do with circumstance unlike who they get drafted by. Those were choices they made, not circusmtances they were forced into. Why should we assume they make different choices? It's not Jordan's fault Kobe didn't go to college and wasn't better prepared for the NBA, which is basically what Phil is saying. If we are going to speculate this drastic of a change in their career paths, then we are basically changing who they actually are as players.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post :applause:

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]There is far too much emphasis on career achievements, which sadly seems to be the overpowering barometer of greatness here.

MJ is greater than Kobe because he's a better player. That greatness translated itself to dominance in the form of multiple rings and MVPs, but they're not even necessary to see that MJ is better than Kobe. In his prime, he was more athletic, had a better midrange shot and was a superior defender. All Kobe has on MJ is the better long range stroke. However, as his career progressed, MJ developed his 3 point shot and became more skilled with his lost athleticism.

That's all I need to know.[/QUOTE]

So true and exactly what Phil was saying. He said nothing about career achievements and career paths while they were in the NBA, which is all that matters since the comparison is based on their NBA career. How they developed up until that point is irrelevant when saying who's better. It's interesting to point out that its a reason why he's better, but it doesn't downplay that he is better, like some seem to be trying to do here.

[QUOTE=Poochymama]Jordan with Kobe's career path would be pretty unfair. Jordan/Shaq from 97-04' would have torn up the league in a way that hasn't been seen since the 60's Celtics.

Speaking in terms of the most likely outcome, bolded are most likely championship years.

Lakers:
[B]1997 - Shaq/85 MJ[/B] Shaq best player
1998 - Shaq/86' MJ
[B]1999 - Shaq/87' MJ[/B] Shaq best player
[B]2000 - Shaq/ 88' MJ[/B] Shaq best player
[B]2001 - Shaq/ 89' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2002 - Shaq/ 90' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2003 - Shaq/ 91' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2004 - Shaq/ 92' MJ/ Malone/ GP[/B] Jordan best player
2005 - 93' MJ - Ridiculous stats
2006 - DNP
2007 - DNP
[B]2008 - 96' Jordan/ Gasol[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2009 - 97' Jordan/ Gasol [/B]Jordan best player
[B]2010 - 98' Jordan/ Gasol[/B] Jordan best player

10 Championships :eek: That's just insane, though a lot of that timing with when Jordan retired and Kobe's team's sucking is pure luck.

Bulls:
1985 - 97' Kobe
1986 - 98' Kobe
1987 - 99' Kobe
1988 - 00' Kobe
1989 - 01' Kobe/ Pip
1990 - 02' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1991 - 03' Kobe/ Pip[/B] Kobe best player
1992 - 04' Kobe/ Pip
1993 - 05' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1994 - 06' Kobe/ Pip/ Grant[/B] Kobe best player
1995 - 07' Kobe/ Pip Kobe best player
[B]1996 - 08' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1997 - 09' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1998 - 10' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
1999 - 11' Kobe
2000 - 12' Kobe
2001 - 13' Kobe

Kobe would have still had major success with those Bulls teams, in all likelihood we're looking at 5 championships with 5 FMVP, better than what he has now. Like with Jordan, a lot of it's timing, but still. This really puts Kobe's longevity in perspective with Jordan's. Even without an early retirement, he still outlasts him by 3 years and counting.[/QUOTE]

LOlOLOLOLOLOLOL @ this whole post. just no. LOL @ this whole thread forr that matter. Kobe stans scrambling on the defensive LOLOLOL

[QUOTE=Poochymama]Jordan with Kobe's career path would be pretty unfair. Jordan/Shaq from 97-04' would have torn up the league in a way that hasn't been seen since the 60's Celtics.

Speaking in terms of the most likely outcome, bolded are most likely championship years.

Lakers:
[B]1997 - Shaq/85 MJ[/B] Shaq best player
1998 - Shaq/86' MJ
[B]1999 - Shaq/87' MJ[/B] Shaq best player
[B]2000 - Shaq/ 88' MJ[/B] Shaq best player
[B]2001 - Shaq/ 89' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2002 - Shaq/ 90' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2003 - Shaq/ 91' MJ[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2004 - Shaq/ 92' MJ/ Malone/ GP[/B] Jordan best player
2005 - 93' MJ - Ridiculous stats
2006 - DNP
2007 - DNP
[B]2008 - 96' Jordan/ Gasol[/B] Jordan best player
[B]2009 - 97' Jordan/ Gasol [/B]Jordan best player
[B]2010 - 98' Jordan/ Gasol[/B] Jordan best player

10 Championships :eek: That's just insane, though a lot of that timing with when Jordan retired and Kobe's team's sucking is pure luck.

Bulls:
1985 - 97' Kobe
1986 - 98' Kobe
1987 - 99' Kobe
1988 - 00' Kobe
1989 - 01' Kobe/ Pip
1990 - 02' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1991 - 03' Kobe/ Pip[/B] Kobe best player
1992 - 04' Kobe/ Pip
1993 - 05' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1994 - 06' Kobe/ Pip/ Grant[/B] Kobe best player
1995 - 07' Kobe/ Pip Kobe best player
[B]1996 - 08' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1997 - 09' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1998 - 10' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
1999 - 11' Kobe
2000 - 12' Kobe
2001 - 13' Kobe

Kobe would have still had major success with those Bulls teams, in all likelihood we're looking at 5 championships with 5 FMVP, better than what he has now. Like with Jordan, a lot of it's timing, but still. This really puts Kobe's longevity in perspective with Jordan's. Even without an early retirement, he still outlasts him by 3 years and counting.[/QUOTE]

I don't see any reason why the lakers wouldn't win in 98 since the 98 bulls wouldn't be the same. I'd probably say they are more likely to lose in 97 and/or 08.

And I don't see any version of Kobe leading those bulls to the title in 98. And by the way, for at least the first 5 years, I don't see Kobe even getting out of the first round. And I'm not so sure 03 Kobe leads them to a title in 91 since he really wasn't close to the leader Jordan was, which may or may not be needed.

[QUOTE=chosen_one6]Kobe tried so hard during his career to act, speak, and be competitive like Jordan. Now all of a sudden he doesn't want to be compared? It's a little late for that you f*cking hypocrite.[/QUOTE]
Kobe's said it before. "Stop with the comparisons. He's the greatest of all time." So he's not being a hypocrite.

BitterBE

[QUOTE=Nash]If Jordan got drafted into a team with prime Shaq in it he would have had 10 rings by now.[/QUOTE]

If Jordan punched teammates for not playing hard enough in practice, how long would he have lasted with out-of-shape Shaq? Or are we pretending that Shaq was a loveable teammate who no one except Kobe had major issues with?

[QUOTE=SpecialQue]If Jordan punched teammates for not playing hard enough in practice, how long would he have lasted with out-of-shape Shaq? Or are we pretending that Shaq was a loveable teammate who no one except Kobe had major issues with?[/QUOTE]
Jordan stans always ignore this. :oldlol:

MJ would not have coexisted with shaq.. It would've been Shaqs team, Shaqs fmvps, Shaqs rings.. MJ fresh out of college wasn't the type of leader he grew into after his trials with the pistons and Celtics.. And he wasn't close to peak Shaqs level yet.

Of course Jordan with Shaq wouldn't last long. Both has personality problems that clashed. But Jordan will still get his rings regardless because he would choose good teams to play with.

[QUOTE=lebeast666]Fvck off Chuckbe, you ain't no MJ. Be glad you got them rings gifted to you.[/QUOTE]
What gift?

[QUOTE=SpecialQue]If Jordan punched teammates for not playing hard enough in practice, how long would he have lasted with out-of-shape Shaq? Or are we pretending that Shaq was a loveable teammate who no one except Kobe had major issues with?[/QUOTE]
are we pretending this is some kind of love fest or are we talking about championships? Kobe got lucky with Shaq, he wouldn't have had 3 extra rings if it wasn't Shaq. Jordan never had that luxury.

[QUOTE=iamgine]Of course Jordan with Shaq wouldn't last long. Both has personality problems that clashed. But Jordan will still get his rings regardless because he would choose good teams to play with.[/QUOTE]
Well you have people saying they'd win 10+ rings.. Lol. First off MJ got bored after three rings on less stacked teams. How would he feel playing with shaq? It'd be no contest. He'd be looking for a new challenge.

Could and would are very different things.

[QUOTE=Poochymama]

Bulls:
1985 - 97' Kobe
1986 - 98' Kobe
1987 - 99' Kobe
1988 - 00' Kobe
1989 - 01' Kobe/ Pip
1990 - 02' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1991 - 03' Kobe/ Pip[/B] Kobe best player
1992 - 04' Kobe/ Pip
1993 - 05' Kobe/ Pip
[B]1994 - 06' Kobe/ Pip/ Grant[/B] Kobe best player
1995 - 07' Kobe/ Pip Kobe best player
[B]1996 - 08' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1997 - 09' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
[B]1998 - 10' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman[/B]
1999 - 11' Kobe
2000 - 12' Kobe
2001 - 13' Kobe

Kobe would have still had major success with those Bulls teams, in all likelihood we're looking at 5 championships with 5 FMVP, better than what he has now. Like with Jordan, a lot of it's timing, but still. This really puts Kobe's longevity in perspective with Jordan's. Even without an early retirement, he still outlasts him by 3 years and counting.[/QUOTE]
Kobe lead team would win 5 titles from 91' to 98'...mmmkay.

[QUOTE=tpols]Well you have people saying they'd win 10+ rings.. Lol. First off MJ got bored after three rings on less stacked teams. How would he feel playing with shaq? It'd be no contest. He'd be looking for a new challenge.

Could and would are very different things.[/QUOTE]
MJ and Kobe were different players and leaders.

Only thing MJ ever wanted to do was WIN. Kobe wants to win for himself which is what tons of us have been saying for years and Phil confirmed this.

Shaq and MJ dynamic would've been different, MJ would've adjusted his game and been a more athletic explosive version of Magic.

There's also no way MJ shoots under 50% with Shaq, he's shooting 55% for most of his career, with almost double the assists, steals and more blocks.

Also, MJ didn't come into the league disrespecting his teammates and coaches. MJ was shy to even be a vocal leader his rookie year because he deferred to vets, which is Kobe's opposite.

[QUOTE=andgar923]MJ and Kobe were different players and leaders.

Only thing MJ ever wanted to do was WIN. Kobe wants to win for himself which is what tons of us have been saying for years and Phil confirmed this.

Shaq and MJ dynamic would've been different, MJ would've adjusted his game and been a more athletic explosive version of Magic.

There's also no way MJ shoots under 50% with Shaq, he's shooting 55% for most of his career, with almost double the assists, steals and more blocks.[/QUOTE]
So MJ would've averaged 10+ assists in the same triangle he played in his whole career because shaq was there. Jordan would've become air Johnson except instead of high flying dunks he'd be soaring through the air throwing oops to shaq at the last second. :oldlol:

MJ wouldn't be able to handle shaq winning fmvps and getting all the glory in June and then coming into camp with a big Mac in hand in October. That would never fly and they would be at each others throats pretty quickly.

[QUOTE=tpols]Well you have people saying they'd win 10+ rings.. Lol. First off MJ got bored after three rings on less stacked teams. How would he feel playing with shaq? It'd be no contest. He'd be looking for a new challenge.

Could and would are very different things.[/QUOTE]
Also, which part of MJ being a superior leader did you not understand?

Do you seriously think MJ and Shaq would've had the same issues?

Perhaps to some degree, but the ultimate goal was to WIN and MJ would've stayed the course.

[QUOTE=tpols]MJ wouldn't be able to handle shaq winning fmvps and getting all the glory in June and then coming into camp with a big Mac in hand in October. That would never fly and they would be at each others throats pretty quickly.[/QUOTE]
Why do you automatically assume Shaq would be winning FMVPs when MJ was the better/more productive player? Why would MJ have a problem with Shaq if they were WINNING?

[QUOTE=andgar923]Also, which part of MJ being a superior leader did you not understand?

Do you seriously think MJ and Shaq would've had the same issues?

Perhaps to some degree, but the ultimate goal was to WIN and MJ would've stayed the course.[/QUOTE]
MJ BECAME a great leader.. Through experience and perseverance.
Through failing over and over and developing an unheard of hunger. It would not have been the same if he was handed eve thing from the start

You just admitted that MJ was shy coming into the league dude. You just said he deferred to vets. Now he isn't deferring to peak Shaq? Of course he is.. And shaq would be the man.. And shaq would get the credit at first at least. And that would bother MJ.

It's funny how you said MJ was shy at first but then act like he was at the same time a natural born leader. Nope.. Real leaders are born through experience and that's how MJ did it.

Jordan's ultimate crave was beating his opponents to the point of humiliation. He would have loved playing with Shaq ; dominating the league and sweeping the post-season.

The Ia 1b stuff wouldn't even matter.

[QUOTE=Young X]Why do you automatically assume Shaq would be winning FMVPs when MJ was the better/more productive player? Why would MJ have a problem with Shaq if they were WINNING?[/QUOTE]
Because peak Shaq>young Jordan.. I don't think anyone would disagree with this.

[QUOTE=tpols]Because peak Shaq>young Jordan.. I don't think anyone would disagree with this.[/QUOTE]
Late 80's MJ > Shaq. Even if you're right, you really think MJ would let his ego get in the way of winning? You really think MJ would rather lose with Bill Cartwright than win with Shaq?

All NBA analysts: "[I]Nobody knows Kobe/MJ better than Phil.[/I]" That settles it doesn't it? Phil completely WRECKED Kobe. :oldlol: The quotes never get old either and the fanbois HATE it.