I'd take Russell > Jordan.

Continued.........

[QUOTE]In the 70s and 80s, you needed several HOF or HOF quality players in order to win a championship. The fact that Olajuwon was able to win 2 titles in the 1990s with those teammates says more about the overall weakness of the NBA and the fact that the talent was spread so thinly than it does about him being the greatest center of all time.

Btw, when Kareem was 39 years old (1986) and Olajuwon was about 23, Kareem was named first team all-NBA over Olajuwon. Kareem destroyed both Olajuwon and Sampson during those days. Dont get me wrong, Olajuwon was great even at that age, but the fact that Kareem was first team all-NBA at age 39 tells us all we need to know about who was better. You dont want to know what Kareem would have done to Olajuwon in his prime!

But Wilt, Russell and Kareem are (in some order) still the 3 best centers to ever play the game. Olajuwon is one of maybe 3 guys who have a legitimate claim to be #4 (along with Moses Malone and Shaq). Walton was actually a better player than Olajuwon as well, but we cant rate him over Hakeem because Waltons career was injury prone.

The 1990s saw a decline in the overall quality of centers. And again, dont get me wrong, its not the fault of Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson or Shaq as to when they were born. They came to the NBA when they did. But the 1990s NBA was becoming loaded down with too many guys who came right out of high school and werent ready for the NBA (other than their potential).
Source(s):
As far as the NBA being tougher when Hakeem won his titles, it wasn't all that tough with Jordan out of the league.

Are you even aware that blocks were not recorded by the NBA until 1974. Wilt retired in 1973, Russell in 1969. Steals were also not an official stat until 1974. Olajuwon's blocked shot totals would be dwarfed by Wilt and Russell had blocks been an official stat.

Russell was the smartest player ever to play the game, by far. It would have taken him no time at all to solve Olajuwon. It wouldn't be long before Russell knew what Hakeem would do before Hakeem knew himself. There were some weaknesses in Olajuwon's post game which require sophisticated analysis. Pat Riley was the one who discovered them. Russell would have easily exploited them. And Olajuwon simply would never get a shot off against Wilt.

Wilt was a 48 min/game man. He averaged 46 min/game over his career. He would have worn Olajuwon out easily simply with FAR superior strength and stamina (not to mention skill).

You wanna talk about Olajuwon's passing? Wilt was the ONLY non-guard ever to lead the NBA in assists.

Are you also aware that Kareem, at age 39, was first team all-NBA over Olajuwon in 1986? Kareem was kicking Olajuwon's a$$ all over the court even at that late age.

Greater athletes? Yeah, we sent great athletes to the Olympics in 2004 and to the World Championships in 2006, and our great athletes got their freakin' heads handed to them by teams which play basketball exactly the way it was played when Russell and Chamberlain played the game. Our 2008 team had to play together during the off season for THREE YEARS just to figure out how to play on the same d**m team.

Wilt and Russell never competed in an NBA full of high school players and one-and-done college players either. And the only players under 6 feet that played in the NBA all played while Olajuwon was playing, not while Wilt and Russell were playing. It was Olajuwon who benefited by playing in a league with a bunch of midgets. Muggsy Bogues FIVE FOOT THREE!!! There were almost no players under 6 foot when Wilt and Russell played, because a player that size would never be given a look. Sebastian Telfair? Please...

When Wilt scored his 100 point game, the Knicks' center was 6'11... he was 2 inches shorter than Wilt. So if Olajuwon's a seven footer, what was his high game against a 6'10 guy?

Russell was also (by FAR) the greatest clutch performer in NBA history... he was 10-0 in game sevens, and he also won his only game 5 of a best of 5 series, meaning he was 11-0 in winner-take-all games. And, in case you think he wasn't contributing much offensively on those championship teams, take a look at his game 7 performances:

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=

[QUOTE=Shade8780]I'm not mad. Chill bro. I just find it funny :D[/QUOTE]

Nah, I think you mad. :D

[QUOTE=Soundwave]Honestly, even at the center position I'd take Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem over Russell.

That's not a knock on Russell, but if you have a chance to draft any player in NBA history, I think you'd prefer one who's a dominant scoring threat.

A defender can only impact the game to a certain point, basketball is a sport that favors the offensive player because you can't just tackle or physically hit the offensive player.[/QUOTE]

H2H Wilt had the better numbers, but Russell did all the little things to help his team anyway way possible to win. When Wilt had the greatest team in NBA history, he beat Bill's Celtics, but guess what. The very next year, Russell led the Celtics from a 3-1 deficit to win the series.

Russell is the GOAT winner, hands down.

[QUOTE=tikay0]Nah, I think you mad. :D[/QUOTE]
Nope.

Why did Russell have to retire just when Kareem entered the league?! :cry:

[QUOTE=Shade8780]No I didn't. Jerry Lucas, Havlicek, Russell, Jerry West and some others I'm not bothered to look up all criticized Wilt.[/QUOTE]
Jerry West never said anything close to what you described about Wilt, West is always one of the first people to shoot down rumors about Wilt's alleged "criticisms" and untrue rumors players never "said" about Wilt. Most of what you've heard has likely been misquoted or worse, entirely fabricated by writers. Like I said, you should post direct quotes, otherwise based on all the times Wilt's peers have gotten offended by the criticisms directed at Wilt that they all seem to agree most of what has been printed is "unfair" and "untrue" - I'm going to assume most of it didn't happen. Unless it's directly quoted. Also, context is very important.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Jerry West never said anything close to what you described about Wilt, West is always one of the first people to shoot down rumors about Wilt's alleged "criticisms" and untrue rumors players never "said" about Wilt. Most of what you've heard has been fabricated by writers. Like I said, you should post direct quotes, otherwise based on all the times Wilt's peers have gotten offended by the criticisms directed at Wilt that they all seem to agree is "unfair" and "untrue" - I'm going to assume it didn't happen.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Despite all of Wilt's impressive talents, the man is a PAIN to work with. These explains why his former teams like the Warriors and 76ers was willing to trade him for LESSER talents, just to get rid of him. Russ has a much better attitude and despite of his aloof manner in public and private life, he exudes a sense of camarederie whenever he steps into the court or inside the locker room.

Some of Wilt negative attributes which could be traced to his primadonna personality includes:

- disrespecting and criticizing his coaches publicly (eg. Neil Johnston, Alex Hannum, Dolph Schayes, and of course Bill Van Breda Kolff all had bad memories working with Wilt.)

- demanding a high salary (eg. One third of the Warriors gate receipts goes to Wilt's salary but Wilt doesnt even want to do publicity gigs to boost ticket sales)

- complains like a baby to the media (eg. threatening to quit but not carrying it out in Look magazine)

- rarely practice and travels with his teammates (eg. Wilt had had feuds with Baylor and Hal Greer).

If i was an NBA coach in real life, i would dread the idea of bringing Wilt Chamberlain on my team. Hell, Alex Hannum had to challenge Wilt in a fight just to get his respect. Ask yourself what kind of a basketball player would push his coach to such lengths just to earn the player's respect. Its not worth it having him on the team unless his talents are programmed in an android devoid of his personality.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a pain in the ass if you ask me.

Eh quotes are rather lame to begin with from players. Most have hidden agendas behind their quotes and many simply speak without thinking. Russell, Wilt, Jordan, etc. are all great without the crazy quotes to go with them.

Oh and to the poster above: Bill Russell demanded a higher salary than what Wilt got and he also was known as a poor practice player. Also none of his teammates wanted to coach him because he was too proud/egomaniac. Russell also dogged HOF teammate Heinsohn about winning ROTY, telling him that he, Russell, should have half of his ROTY winnings. Does that mean that they wouldn't want him on their team? HELL NO. Does any of what you say mean that Wilt wasn't a great player? HELL NO. But I bet that quote is from Bleacherreport so it's not really useful.

You guys are forgetting that Bill Russell made a point to make Bob Cousy the best PG in the league. If it weren't for Russell, I don't think that Celtics would be filled with HOF players.

He's the ultimate leader. Does ANYTHING to make his team better. I want that dude on my team.

[QUOTE=TheTenth]Eh quotes are rather lame to begin with from players. Most have hidden agendas behind their quotes and many simply speak without thinking. Russell, Wilt, Jordan, etc. are all great without the crazy quotes to go with them.

Oh and to the poster above: Bill Russell demanded a higher salary than what Wilt got and he also was known as a poor practice player. Also none of his teammates wanted to coach him because he was too proud/egomaniac. Does that mean that they wouldn't want him on their team? HELL NO. Does any of what you say mean that Wilt wasn't a great player? HELL NO.[/QUOTE]

You do know that the Lakers had a 7 to 2 vote to not bring Wilt onto the team.

They eventually got him, but c'mon man. He was regarded around the league as a head case.

Bill Russell might've been a lot of things, but a bad teammate wasn't one of them.

[QUOTE=tikay0]You guys are forgetting that Bill Russell made a point to make Bob Cousy the best PG in the league. If it weren't for Russell, I don't think that Celtics would be filled with HOF players.

He's the ultimate leader. Does ANYTHING to make his team better. I want that dude on my team.[/QUOTE]
Oh right, because Cousy wasn't winning assist titles before Russell time and time again.:oldlol:

List of guys that probably would make it without Russ:
Bob Cousy
Bill Sharman
Arnie Risen
Andy Phillip
Bailey Howell
Clyde Lovellette
(^ all of them played most of their careers WITHOUT Russell)
Sam Jones
John Havlicek
(^Both talented players and Hondo had his best years without Russell.)
Tom Heinsohn (I'm iffy about this one, but he was clearly a talented player)

Guys that probably needed Russell:
KC Jones
Frank Ramsey

[QUOTE=tikay0]You do know that the Lakers had a 7 to 2 vote to not bring Wilt onto the team.

They eventually got him, but c'mon man. He was regarded around the league as a head case.

Bill Russell might've been a lot of things, but a bad teammate wasn't one of them.[/QUOTE]
Oh so a vote of players who had never been teammates with Wilt before is undeniable proof that he was a bad teammate! Nice!

[QUOTE=TheTenth]Oh right, because Cousy wasn't winning assist titles before Russell time and time again.:oldlol:

List of guys that probably would make it without Russ:
Bob Cousy
Bill Sharman
Arnie Risen
Andy Phillip
Bailey Howell
Clyde Lovellette
(^ all of them played most of their careers WITHOUT Russell)
Sam Jones
John Havlicek
(^Both talented players and Hondo had his best years without Russell.)
Tom Heinsohn (I'm iffy about this one, but he was clearly a talented player)

Guys that probably needed Russell:
KC Jones
Frank Ramsey[/QUOTE]
Most of those guys weren't one on one players. They counted on Russell's passes to get them their points. Hondo said that the Celtics took a huge shock when Bill retired because they relied on him so much.

April 2013, u mad? Just because Russell has a perfect game 7 record, and one of the most clutch performers of all time, AND always shined in the playoffs, you wanna hate on the guy? :confusedshrug:

Wilt was a headcase that no one liked. Deal with it.

[QUOTE=TheTenth]Oh so a vote of players who had never been teammates with Wilt before is undeniable proof that he was a bad teammate! Nice![/QUOTE]
:facepalm

[QUOTE=Shade8780]Most of those guys weren't one on one players. They counted on Russell's passes to get them their points. Hondo said that the Celtics took a huge shock when Bill retired because they relied on him so much.[/QUOTE]
So? Most of them made their HOF careers WITHOUT Russell. :facepalm
And like I said, I don't find quotes as good reasoning.

[QUOTE=tikay0]April 2013, u mad? Just because Russell has a perfect game 7 record, and one of the most clutch performers of all time, AND always shined in the playoffs, you wanna hate on the guy? :confusedshrug:

Wilt was a headcase that no one liked. Deal with it.[/QUOTE]
No I think Russell is one of the greatest of all time. I just think you have faulty logic in criticizing Wilt.

[QUOTE=Shade8780]Why did Russell have to retire just when Kareem entered the league?! :cry:[/QUOTE]

Because there was literally nothing else to do. He'd helped his team win 11 titles in 13 seasons, and had no business winning the last two, but did it anyway. He couldn't play any more after that, because it takes a lot out of you and he'd burned out.

People who feel the need to hunt for flaws and criticisms about one player, yet do not appear to hunt for flaws in the same manner or with the same enthusiasm for the player they are trying to prop up or hold in high-esteem, make for lousy discussions.

People need to stop throwing Wilt under the bus if they want Bill Russell to have any respect. Their greatness is co-dependent. You can't be throwing one under the bus and expect people to then take the other one seriously. They are each others best competition. And they were both so spectacular it seems childish to try and slander one or the other with petty criticisms in light of their incredible accomplishments and abilities.

Michael Jordan was without question a better player than Bill Russell.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]How do you know? He says that if Russell and Wilt swapped rosters, that Chamberlain might very well have won all those rings. Since they didn't, we don't know. We do know that Russell enjoyed a huge edge in surrounding talent in the majority of their ten seasons in the league together, and that his teammates also outplayed Chamberlain's in nearly all of their post-season h2h's.

The fact that Russell, with far superior talent won two game seven's, by 2 1and 1 point, against what were basically last place rosters before Chamberlain arrived, and with those rosters playing horribly, just speaks volumes about how far one man could carry a team against an army.[/QUOTE]


How many times are we going to hear this myth that Russel only won because he had better talent..He didn't have better talent from 65-69 and won 3 out of 4. Wilt went to a team in LA that went to the finals the years before and Russell still won on his last legs. The Phila team he left ended up with the second best record in the league the year after he left.

What speaqks volumes is Russell only failed to win a ttile once in his last 15 years of basketball when he wasn't hurt..Let me guess it was all his teammates.

[QUOTE=stanlove1111][B]How many times are we going to hear this myth that Russel only won because he had better talent[/B]..He didn't have better talent from 65-69 and won 3 out of 4. Wilt went to a team in LA that went to the finals the years before and Russell still won on his last legs. The Phila team he left ended up with the second best record in the league the year after he left.

What speaqks volumes is Russell only failed to win a ttile once in his last 15 years of basketball when he wasn't hurt..Let me guess it was all his teammates.[/QUOTE]
It's like April 2013 posters aren't even aware that basketball is a team sport. Yes child, the winning team having the most talent is a myth. Of course. That's the ticket.:rolleyes:

Id take Russell,Wilt,Kareem,Shaq over Jordan

While Jordan is known as Goat(by most)

A Goat C beats the Goat Guard

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I don't see Bird having any case over Magic. Magic won as many MVPs (and probably deserved one in '82), more FMVPs (and was robbed of one in '88), won more rings, outplayed Bird h2h in their post-season h2h's, was a better playoff performer...

.[/QUOTE]


Bird was better at his best, and Magic had a better career because of better health..I can sure see something thinking Bird was the greater player..I consider them about tied.

Plesse stop with the finals MVP talk..That has gotten really old on this site. I noticed you cherry pick. You don't bother mentioning that Bird was robbed of a FMVP in 1981 and Magic got a gift in 1980.. Not that FMVP are to be obsessed with like so many do on this site..

I wouldn't take Russell over MJ. Guy was only the legit best player on both sides of the ball for 2 or 3 of his 11 championships. Regardless of his intangibles, how great a leader he was, how dominant of a defensive force he was ... he's still essentially a niche player. Defense wins championships, but offense is important too. Let's not forget he had the most stacked roster in his young, small pond league.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]It's like April 2013 posters aren't even aware that basketball is a team sport. Yes child, the winning team having the most talent is a myth. Of course. That's the ticket.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


Dumb dumb the myth I am talking about is Russell had all this great talent around him and Wilt didn't..

Wilt great talent from 65-73..2 titles..Follow long now kiddo..Son did you miss the part where I stated the fact that Wilt went to a team in 1969 that went the finals the year before without him and still lost to Russell? Did you miss the part about the Phila team that Wilt left in 1968 ended up with the second best record in the league the next year without him..Gee some lack of talent Wilt had..:lol

But keep spouting your crap..

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]I wouldn't take Russell over MJ. Guy was only the legit best player on both sides of the ball for 2 or 3 of his 11 championships. Regardless of his intangibles, how great a leader he was, how dominant of a defensive force he was ... he's still essentially a niche player. Defense wins championships, but offense is important too. Let's not forget he had the most stacked roster in his young, small pond league.[/QUOTE]
You have to put somewhat of an * on Russell's career due to him being in an 8 team league where the other 7 teams didn't want to have "too many" black players on their rosters.

[QUOTE=JoHnNyBoXeR]Lol I hear what your saying but his height is his height .. He would be 6'9 in yesterday's nba and 6'9 in today's nba.. Lol[/QUOTE]
:facepalm

It hasn't kept Dwight from, when healthy, being the best center in the league, and they're basically the exact same height. You know a lot of the other players that are listed at 6'10"-6'11" in today's NBA? Most of them are actually 6'8" or 6'9"; the same height as or shorter than Russell. He would be listed at 6'11" today, and be just as tall (with a higher reach and better vert than most) as all the other players that are allegedly 6'11" today.

[QUOTE=stanlove1111]Dumb dumb the myth I am talking about is Russell had all this great talent around him and Wilt didn't..

Wilt great talent from 65-73..2 titles..Follow long now [B]kiddo[/B]..[B]Son[/B] did you miss the part where I stated the fact that Wilt went to a team in 1969 that went the finals the year before without him and still lost to Russell? Did you miss the part about the Phila team that Wilt left in 1968 ended up with the second best record in the league the next year without him..Gee some lack of talent Wilt had..:lol

But keep spouting your crap..[/QUOTE]
Real men make sure to display passive aggressiveness on the internet. Obvi.

:roll:

April 2013.

STFU with all this height talk. Russell was easily one of the most gifted athletes in NBA history. It's true, his height would be estimated at around 6'11-7'0 in today's heavily marketed league, but c'mon, when your big man is doing things like this,

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEs4KC4xHE0[/url]

Shiiiiiiieeeeeeeeet.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]People who feel the need to hunt for flaws and criticisms about one player, yet do not appear to hunt for flaws in the same manner or with the same enthusiasm for the player they are trying to prop up or hold in high-esteem, make for lousy discussions.[/QUOTE]

Welcome to the internet.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]I wouldn't take Russell over MJ. Guy was only the legit best player on both sides of the ball for 2 or 3 of his 11 championships. Regardless of his intangibles, how great a leader he was, how dominant of a defensive force he was ... he's still essentially a niche player. Defense wins championships, but offense is important too. Let's not forget he had the most stacked roster in his young, small pond league.[/QUOTE]

Russel was a niche player. His niche was winning f'ing championships. Seems like he picked the right niche imo.

And I see we're back to, regardless of who the thread was supposed to be about, jlauber stepping in and copying and pasting walls of text about Wilt.

Someone should start a thread titled "Ranks the Centers of the 80's and 90's" and see how long it takes for him to step in and start talking about Wilt.

[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]Russel was a niche player. His niche was winning f'ing championships. Seems like he picked the right niche imo.[/QUOTE]

:applause: :oldlol:

[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]Russel was a niche player. His niche was winning f'ing championships. Seems like he picked the right niche imo.[/QUOTE]
Meh, stacked roster, young league, not the best player for the majority of his championships. He was a terrific defensive anchor who was only the undisputed best player on his team for 3 of his championships. You want to talk about overrated due to "rings"

Anthony Davis= 6"10 with shoes = will dominant the NBA and be the next Tim Duncan.

Bill Russel = 6"9-6"10 = gets no respect.

You guys need to get real. Russel is the greatest defender in the history of this game.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Meh, stacked roster, young league, not the best player for the majority of his championships. He was a terrific defensive anchor who was only the undisputed best player on his team for 3 of his championships. You want to talk about overrated due to "rings"[/QUOTE]

Damn son. You literally can't give no one else besides MJ credit huh? :facepalm

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Meh, stacked roster, young league, [B]not the best player for the majority of his championships.[/B] He was a terrific defensive anchor who was only the undisputed best player on his team for 3 of his championships. You want to talk about overrated due to "rings"[/QUOTE]

please show me these better players on those championship teams? it may be hard because they don't exist.

[QUOTE=tikay0]Damn son. You literally can't give no one else besides MJ some credit huh? :facepalm[/QUOTE]
:facepalm

How am I not giving Russell credit, kid? You never even seen him play, let alone in context, so why are you so attached?

I've done the research, I've always felt he's overrated. I give plenty of credit where it's due. Him being a defensive anchor with incredible leadership capabilities on a franchise that won 11 rings in a young, small talent pool league on a team that had top to bottom the best roster in the league every season.

The same way we pepper Kobe's 5 rings with the Shaq argument? Same goes for Russell, arguably to a greater extent.

I'm not not giving credit, I'm being HONEST and not letting "rings" and the context in how they were won sway the logical side of my brain.

I'd take Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem maybe even Duncan over Russell as well. Bird, Magic all have a higher standing in the game's hierarchy to me than Bill Russell. It is what it is ... don't cry about it. I gave you valid reasoning why I wouldn't choose Russell. And no, I'm not taking him over Jordan.

Get off my dick, young buck. Do your research. Russell still isn't better than Wilt. Guy was essentially a Dwight Howard in a weaker, smaller, less athletic, less talented league.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]How am I not giving Russell credit, kid? You never even seen him play, let alone in context, so why are you so attached?

I've done the research, I've always felt he's overrated. I give plenty of credit where it's due. Him being a defensive anchor with incredible leadership capabilities on a franchise that won 11 rings in a young, small talent pool league on a team that had top to bottom the best roster in the league every season.

The same way we pepper Kobe's 5 rings with the Shaq argument? Same goes for Russell, arguably to a greater extent.

I'm not not giving credit, I'm being HONEST and not letting "rings" and the context in how they were won sway the logical side of my brain.

I'd take Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem maybe even Duncan over Russell as well. Bird, Magic all have a higher standing in the game's hierarchy to me than Bill Russell. It is what it is ... don't cry about it. I gave you valid reasoning why I wouldn't choose Russell. And no, I'm not taking him over Jordan.[/QUOTE]

OK, kid. He was/still is the smartest basketball player to ever play the game. He's studied his opposition like no other player has ever played the game. His single driving force in life was to win CHAMPIONSHIPS. He sacrificed his stats in order for his team to have the best chance at winning. He was the greatest leader in NBA history. He knew what you were going to do, before you did.

And when you say he was a defensive anchor, I think you meant, he was the GOAT defender, period. He invented "intimidating" the opposing offensive players. He was a player coach for God's sake.

Please stop underrating the guy. MJ is the GOAT, and so is Russell.

[QUOTE=tikay0]OK, kid. [B]He was/still is the smartest basketball player to ever play the game. [/B] He's studied his opposition like no other player has ever played the game. His single driving force in life was to win CHAMPIONSHIPS. He sacrificed his stats in order for his team to have the best chance at winning. He was the greatest leader in NBA history. He knew what you were going to do, before you did.

And when you say he was a defensive anchor, I think you meant, he was the GOAT defender, period. He invented "intimidating" the opposing offensive players. He was a player coach for God's sake.

Please stop underrating the guy. MJ is the GOAT, and so is Russell.[/QUOTE]
How the fcuk would you know? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=NumberSix]How the fcuk would you know? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Numerous accounts of people saying so. When Red Auerbach calls him the smartest player to ever play the game, that says something.

Sorry, Lebron isn't even in this conversation. He wouldn't allow Lebron to get a single bucket in the paint, and he'd probably cry himself to sleep every night, knowing he'd have to face him in a 7 game series.