Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]this thread is about his mvp which is decided in the regular season :facepalm comprehension is not a skill you have.[/QUOTE]
[B]And this thread is also not about playing against the top teams[/B].:facepalm Doesn't matter if Lebron played better against the Raptors or Bucks. He [B]averaged[/B] more than Rose. Lebron had better stats and was a flat out better player. He was/is/and will always be better than Rose. He should have won the MVP.
Lerbon was a better passer, rebounder, scorer and defender than Rose.

Lebron >>>>>>>> Rose any way you look at it.
If you're suggesting that the Bulls >> the Heat in the RS, then I'd agree with you. Replace Rose with Lebron on that Bulls team and they win the title.

[QUOTE=aj1987]And when it mattered, Lebron destroyed Rose. 4-1. Nobody gives a shit if you score in the RS, if you can't score for shit in the playoffs.
Lebron: 26/8/7/2/2 on 45/39/86
Rose: 23/4/7/1 on 35/24/82
7% in the 4th quarters.

And no. The last 13 games, they went 11-2 (lost against the Bucks and Cavs).[/QUOTE]
MVP is a regular season award.

[QUOTE=TonyMontana]I'm not RG and I assure you there is no "anti Bulls" agenda. I am saying that Noah is a more valuable player to that team than Rose. If you were an actual Bulls fan that wouldn't be so offensive and we could argue it, but you are clearly just a Rose/Jordan stan.

Rose is a good regular season player. He will be able to pad his stats and secure additional wins for the team against the irrelevant ball clubs.

But in the playoffs when your playing real defenses, Noah is the teams most important player, especially if you want to beat Miami. Without him there is no chance of that happening.

Look at how Rose's FG% shrank when he had to play the Heat in 2011. His penetration game wasn't working when he had to go around guys like LeBron, Wade, and Chalmers. A 6'2 guard can only effect the game so much, and against bigger and competitive athletes you are not going to get clean looks like you do in the regular season vs the Sacramento Kings.

If you want to beat Miami it has to happen in the paint because the team is weak there. Noah clowns Bosh every time these teams play eachother and that has to be exploited. Your not beating Miami on the perimeter, guys like Butler and Deng are good to slow LeBron down , but that's all your going to do with that matchup.

Your subpar perimeter players just cannot match up with the greatness that is known as LeBron James. You better make sure your bigs dominate their matchup to counteract the damage or your going to be going home early.

Noah prevents easy baskets an GETS easy baskets. Elite rim defender and rebounder. Smart offensive player that helps the teams in ways other than ball domination.[/QUOTE]

To be honest with you Noah sucked that year. Never got it going in the regular season. Was benched in the playoffs in the 4th quarter that year in the playoffs! Even drew the wrath of Pippen and Thibes. You just made a mistake here. Their best season was, was Rose's MVP run when Noah played about 20 good games (regular season and playoffs combined) and Rose carried them. You have to be out of your mind if you think Noah could do that with any team. They are on a whole new level with Rose.

Agreed. It was really bad

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]
Same reason Shaq didn't deserve MVP in 2001. You don't get the award when there is a co-alpha on your team, like Kobe was putting up an absurd 29/5/5 and essentially being the team's closer late in games. Iverson was a 5'11 lone gunner and playmaker on a team full of defensive role players. His season in CONTEXT is much more impressive. His load, and pressure was much heavier.[/QUOTE]

Shaq was actually the Lakers leading scorer in thew 4th quarter during the '01 regular season with a slight edge of 7.1 ppg to Kobe's 6'9. ppg in the 4th.

Besides, I'm not sure how much Kobe can be held against Shaq during that regular season since the Lakers went 11-3 without him.

Also not sure how Iverson or Rose's height makes them more valuable. If anything, the opposite is true considering it limits how much they can impact a game defensively. Both were on teams that were elite rebounding teams and elite defensive teams which is one of the issues I have with their MVPs and the perception that they did everything for the teams.

Considering how crucial that late game stretch was when Kobe was injured with the West so close, how dominant Shaq was and the momentum to finish the season on an 8 game winning streak getting the number 2 seed and setting up the playoffs run. That's more than enough for me.

Of course, I do factor in individual dominance and best player to some degree. I think the award should be somewhat representative of that, which is why I also have Kobe as the '06 MVP for example.

[QUOTE]Give it to Dwight? Why? He had more offensive weapons than Rose on his team, and he wasn't NEAR as clutch as Rose was all season. Derrick single handedly in certain games turned losses into wins with 4th quarter take overs and come backs on his shoulders.[/QUOTE]

Dwight didn't have great offensive talent around him either. J-Rich was primarily a streaky shooter. Hedo was a decent role player, but not at his '08 or '09 level, or even close. Pretty inconsistent as well. Jameer wasn't that good. Never a natural playmaker, had a tendency to overdribble and he often took bad shots. He was skilled, but also inconsistent and not a big impact player. Brandon Bass was a good offensive 4 with a nice mid-range shot, and Anderson was a stretch 4 who made a lot of 3s, but that was the extent of his offensive game. JJ Redick was a good shooter, little more.

None of them were really consistent, and which of these players could create their own shot. Nelson, and sometimes Turkoglu.

Boozer was still a better offensive player than any of those players, Deng as well.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]They had the EXACT same pieces that allowed the Magic to be ranked the number 1 defense in 2009, though?[/QUOTE]

And they remained elite defensively at number 3. Although they didn't have the exact same pieces either. 2009 team had Mickael Pietrus, Courtney Lee, Rashard Lewis, Marcin Gortat, Anthony Johnson.

2011 team had J-Rich, Brandon Bass, Ryan Anderson and broken down Gilbert Arenas instead of those players.

I'd say that's a downgrade defensively if anything.

[QUOTE]Dwight brings the most impact on defense, he's a big man, that's his side of the ball to dominate.

Rose brings the most impact on offense, he's a combo guard, that's his side of the ball to dominate. And he was the only reason their offense was respectable.[/QUOTE]

Except Dwight's offense was far closer to Rose's defense. That's the difference, Dwight was the best defensive player in the game, but he still averaged 23/14.

If you take Dwight off that Magic team, they're terrible. They lost their elite defense and are probably among the worst defensively, they'd probably regularly get outrebounded and drop from an average offensive team to among the worst.

It should've been Bron or Dwight.

[QUOTE=Twiens]Shut the **** up. Why are all Miami fans obsessed with hating on D-Rose? I sense some fear there, *******.[/QUOTE]

:facepalm 4-1

[QUOTE=Jameerthefear]MVP is a regular season award.[/QUOTE]
Read my previous post. Rose wasn't a better scorer, passer, rebounder, or even a better defender than Lebron during the 2011 [B]regular season[/B]. Name one aspect of the game in which Rose outplayed Lebron. Even the stats indicate that Lebron was a better player. Replace Rose with 'Bron and the Bulls win the Championship, and this is coming from a guy who doesn't particularly like Lebron.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Read my previous post. Rose wasn't a better scorer, passer, rebounder, or even a better defender than Lebron during the 2011 [B]regular season[/B]. Name one aspect of the game in which Rose outplayed Lebron. Even the stats indicate that Lebron was a better player. Replace Rose with 'Bron and the Bulls win the Championship, and this is coming from a guy who doesn't particularly like Lebron.[/QUOTE]
Except the MVP award doesn't always go to the best player, but the most valuable one. Who knows if Bulls win a ring with LBJ instead of Rose. Do you not remember how pitiful Lebron looked in the finals that year?

Basically... I hate whenever the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls or Celtics have even a hint of a great player because they always get irrationally defended and worshipped.

Reason is because those teams have such large fan bases... naturally the overall number of retards is going to be larger and thus stick out like a sore thumb.

You guys can argue wether precedent means rose should have gotten the mvp or not but you damn well know that he did not nor did he ever do anything to actually deserve to be in the same breath with almost any other mvp ever.

The real thing that needs to change is the voting process because there's no damn way in hell that a guy like shaq who was UNDENIABLY AT A MINIMUM the most impacting player in the league for 3 years (I'd argue as many as 7 but it is inarguably 3) only has 1 mvp and a guy like rose who isn't even remotely close to being the player shaq was has the same amount of awards. It's a joke.

The media as a collective needs to be slapped and backhanded for stuff like that. Ridiculous.

Any given season they can basically choose whatever criteria they feel like and morally I have a problem with handing out the sport's top individual award to some random players based on voter fatigue or whatever you want to ****ing call it.

All it takes is one or two loud mouthed ignorant ******s to float the idea and like sheep the rest come flocking. It's the same reason that Tony Parker got mvp hype this year. Tony ****ing Parker. Lmfao.

Tony ****ing Parker. If that doesn't wake you up to the fact that something is terribly wrong, nothing ever will.

[QUOTE=Orlando Magic]Basically... I hate whenever the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls or Celtics have even a hint of a great player because they always get irrationally defended and worshipped.

Reason is because those teams have such large fan bases... naturally the overall number of retards is going to be larger and thus stick out like a sore thumb.

You guys can argue wether precedent means rose should have gotten the mvp or not but you damn well know that he did not nor did he ever do anything to actually deserve to be in the same breath with almost any other mvp ever.

The real thing that needs to change is the voting process because there's no damn way in hell that a guy like shaq who was UNDENIABLY AT A MINIMUM the most impacting player in the league for 3 years (I'd argue as many as 7 but it is inarguably 3) only has 1 mvp and [B]a guy like rose who isn't even remotely close to being the player shaq was has the same amount of awards[/B]. It's a joke.

The media as a collective needs to be slapped and backhanded for stuff like that. Ridiculous.

Any given season they can basically choose whatever criteria they feel like and morally I have a problem with handing out the sport's top individual award to some random players based on voter fatigue or whatever you want to ****ing call it.[/QUOTE]

Preach the truth. :applause:
Shaq definately deserved more. Shaq was always disrespected in the NBA

[QUOTE=Orlando Magic]Basically... I hate whenever the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls or Celtics have even a hint of a great player because they always get irrationally defended and worshipped.

Reason is because those teams have such large fan bases... naturally the overall number of retards is going to be larger and thus stick out like a sore thumb.

You guys can argue wether precedent means rose should have gotten the mvp or not but you damn well know that he did not nor did he ever do anything to actually deserve to be in the same breath with almost any other mvp ever.

The real thing that needs to change is the voting process because there's no damn way in hell that a guy like shaq who was UNDENIABLY AT A MINIMUM the most impacting player in the league for 3 years (I'd argue as many as 7 but it is inarguably 3) only has 1 mvp and a guy like rose who isn't even remotely close to being the player shaq was has the same amount of awards. It's a joke.

The media as a collective needs to be slapped and backhanded for stuff like that. Ridiculous.

Any given season they can basically choose whatever criteria they feel like and morally I have a problem with handing out the sport's top individual award to some random players based on voter fatigue or whatever you want to ****ing call it.

All it takes is one or two loud mouthed ignorant ******s to float the idea and like sheep the rest come flocking. It's the same reason that Tony Parker got mvp hype this year. Tony ****ing Parker. Lmfao.

Tony ****ing Parker. If that doesn't wake you up to the fact that something is terribly wrong, nothing ever will.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

Real talk.

Dwight was my pick for 2011 MVP

2005 Steve Nash is the worse MVP winner in history, and it's not even close.

[QUOTE=PJR]2005 Steve Nash is the worse MVP winner in history, and it's not even close.[/QUOTE]
Nah. At least the Suns had a massive turnaround offensively (21st to one of the greatest ever) by adding Nash. He was the major reason behind their elite attribute.

You can tell a Lebron dick rider when they say shit like "Rose didn't even deserve to be in the conversation...."

Thats a load of shit.

Lebron does everything better....blah blah blah..... He did everything better besides leading his team to less wins than the Rose-led Bulls in the regular season, which is what the MVP award is for, THE REGULAR SEASON.

Amateur bandwagon Heat bitches don't even know its a regular season award, how pathetic.

Rose had a great season and deserved MVP as much any other candidate. Nothing of what i just said is irrational or an overreaction.

This isn't like Malone winning MVP over Jordan. Jordan was clearly the GOAT and had won 4-5 titles by then and his team had the most regular season wins.

Rose's team had more wins than Miami and Lebron's 2 teammates were by far better than Rose's best two teammates.

Dwight Howard was robbed.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Dwight was my pick for 2011 MVP[/QUOTE]


4th or 5th seeded team can't really have the MVP in most peoples opinions.

omg roses mvp is much more sweeter now because of the doucheness that is dwight howard. im so glad that fake ass clown didn't even win it. he doesn't deserve to be in the class of mvps. derrick rose earned that mvp more than lebron earned his two rings.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Replace Rose with 'Bron and the Bulls win the Championship, and this is coming from a guy who doesn't particularly like Lebron.[/QUOTE]
:hammerhead:

i don't think u understand how difficult rose had it. lebron has the luxury of having a really good ball handlers in wade, chalmers and cole that can actually penetrate to the paint, while having spot 3 point shooters in battier, miller, jones and now allen.

the bulls had no one that could handle the ball effectively other than rose. no one

If Howard had won MVP he would have been the first player to do it while averaging less than 2 assists per game in about 30 years, when Moses Malone won back-to-back MVP's.

Also, if Howard had won it scoring under 23 points a game, he'd be grouped only with older Magic and Nash (all time greats at running a team), and a handful of players from the 50's / 60's / 70's (Walton, Russell, Cousy, etc).

In other words, Howard's particular combination of points (22.9) and assists (1.4) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it never happens.

For basketball reasons, in terms of overall production and MVP's being mainly offensive players, I can see why. He was definitely a candidate in 2011, he improved his offense combined with his DPOY defense, but he didn't deserve to actually win it relative to Rose's stellar season. Lebron I think was also more deserving than Howard, Lebron-Rose is more of a debate IMO.

Just for the sake of comparison, here's a similar player in Moses winning it compared to when Howard "should have won it" according to some.

[B]Moses '83[/B]

24.5 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.0 bpg, 50.1 FG%, 76.1 FT%, 3.4 topg, 37.5 mpg

Philly won 65 games after getting Malone from the Rockets (then won the championship).

[B]Howard '11[/B]

22.9 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.4 bpg, 59.3 FG%, 59.6 FT%, 3.6 topg, 37.6 mpg

Magic won 52 games despite Howard's improvement, which was a drop off from the previous two 59-win seasons when Dwight was less of a scorer (then they lost in the first round).

[QUOTE=SCdac]If Howard had won MVP he would have been the first player to do it while averaging less than 2 assists per game in about 30 years, when Moses Malone won back-to-back MVP's.[/QUOTE]

So? Moses doing it 3 times proves there are exceptions. Why can't Howard be one of them?

if you want to look at like this, Rose shot 44.5% making him one of only two MVPs in the last 40 years to shoot under 45%, along with Iverson who shot 42% in 2001.

In fact, in the last 50 seasons, those 2 and Bill Russell in 1965 are the only 3 MVPs who have shot under 45% and of course when Russell did it, the league average for FG% was just 42.6%, and Russell of course wasn't known primarily for scoring, just like a certain Orlando Magic center was known first and foremost for his defense and rebounding.

[QUOTE]Also, if Howard had won it scoring under 23 points a game, he'd be grouped only with older Magic and Nash (all time greats at running a team), and a handful of players from the 50's / 60's / 70's (Walton, Russell, Cousy, etc).[/QUOTE]

Pretty arbitrary number picking 23 ppg, especially since Howard was at 22.9. 0.4 less than Duncan's 23.3 when he got his second MVP in 2003.

But here's another one for Rose. His 4.1 rpg are the 3rd lowest ever in an NBA season with only 2001 Iverson(3.8 rpg) and 2005 Nash(3.3 rpg) averaging fewer.

In fact, those 3 seasons along with Nash in 2006 and Cousy in 1957 are the only 5 in NBA history where the MVP has averaged fewer than 5 rpg.

[QUOTE]In other words, Howard's particular combination of points (22.9) and assists (1.4) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it never happens.[/QUOTE]

And Rose's combination of FG%(44.5) and rpg(4.1) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it only has one other time with Iverson in 2011.

[QUOTE]For basketball reasons, in terms of overall production and MVP's being mainly offensive players, I can see why. He was definitely a candidate in 2011, he improved his offense combined with his DPOY defense, but he didn't deserve to actually win it relative to Rose's stellar season. Lebron I think was also more deserving than Howard, Lebron-Rose is more of a debate IMO.[/QUOTE]

As far as offensive production, well, since arbitrary numbers are the theme, here's some.

In the post-merger era, Howard's 2011 season is one of only 8 where a player has averaged at least 22 ppg and shot at least 59%. Here's the complete list.

1994 Shaq (29.3 ppg, 59.9 FG%)
1987 McHale (26.1 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1990 Barkley (25.2 ppg, 60.0 FG%)
1980 Kareem (24.8 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1987 Barkley (23.0 ppg, 59.4 FG%)
2011 Dwight (22.9 ppg, 59.3 FG%)
2005 Shaq (22.9 ppg, 60.1 FG%)
1988 McHale (22.6 ppg, 60.4 FG%)

Not many players have scored as much as Howard did and shot the percentage he did. And the only other season where a player did that with at least 14 rpg like Howard was Barkley in 1987.

Lebron is tough because he was probably still the best player in the game, but he didn't have a great season by his standards, and his standards in other seasons shouldn't be a factor in most valuable player of a particular year, unfortunately, the voters often disagree. And considering Miami's expectations the 58 wins hurt, though they're explainable as part of their adjustment period since they started 9-8 and similarly, when Miami took off as a team, Lebron's individual play took off after a slow start.

I'm fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him.

[QUOTE]Just for the sake of comparison, here's a similar player in Moses winning it compared to when Howard "should have won it" according to some.

[B]Moses '83[/B]

24.5 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.0 bpg, 50.1 FG%, 76.1 FT%, 3.4 topg, 37.5 mpg

Philly won 65 games after getting Malone from the Rockets (then won the championship).

[B]Howard '11[/B]

22.9 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.4 bpg, 59.3 FG%, 59.6 FT%, 3.6 topg, 37.6 mpg

Magic won 52 games despite Howard's improvement, which was a drop off from the previous two 59-win seasons when Dwight was less of a scorer (then they lost in the first round).[/QUOTE]

What's your point? That Moses was more dominant than Dwight because we know that. He was also unquestionably more dominant than Rose and would have ran away with the MVP had he had that same '83 season in 2011.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]So? Moses doing it 3 times proves there are exceptions. Why can't Howard be one of them?

if you want to look at like this, Rose shot 44.5% making him one of only two MVPs in the last 40 years to shoot under 45%, along with Iverson who shot 42% in 2001.

In fact, in the last 50 seasons, those 2 and Bill Russell in 1965 are the only 3 MVPs who have shot under 45% and of course when Russell did it, the league average for FG% was just 42.6%, and Russell of course wasn't known primarily for scoring, just like a certain Orlando Magic center was known first and foremost for his defense and rebounding.



Pretty arbitrary number picking 23 ppg, especially since Howard was at 22.9. 0.4 less than Duncan's 23.3 when he got his second MVP in 2003.

But here's another one for Rose. His 4.1 rpg are the 3rd lowest ever in an NBA season with only 2001 Iverson(3.8 rpg) and 2005 Nash(3.3 rpg) averaging fewer.

In fact, those 3 seasons along with Nash in 2006 and Cousy in 1957 are the only 5 in NBA history where the MVP has averaged fewer than 5 rpg.



And Rose's combination of FG%(44.5) and rpg(4.1) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it only has one other time with Iverson in 2011.



As far as offensive production, well, since arbitrary numbers are the theme, here's some.

In the post-merger era, Howard's 2011 season is one of only 8 where a player has averaged at least 22 ppg and shot at least 59%. Here's the complete list.

1994 Shaq (29.3 ppg, 59.9 FG%)
1987 McHale (26.1 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1990 Barkley (25.2 ppg, 60.0 FG%)
1980 Kareem (24.8 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1987 Barkley (23.0 ppg, 59.4 FG%)
2011 Dwight (22.9 ppg, 59.3 FG%)
2005 Shaq (22.9 ppg, 60.1 FG%)
1988 McHale (22.6 ppg, 60.4 FG%)

Not many players have scored as much as Howard did and shot the percentage he did. And the only other season where a player did that with at least 14 rpg like Howard was Barkley in 1987.

Lebron is tough because he was probably still the best player in the game, but he didn't have a great season by his standards, and his standards in other seasons shouldn't be a factor in most valuable player of a particular year, unfortunately, the voters often disagree. And considering Miami's expectations the 58 wins hurt, though they're explainable as part of their adjustment period since they started 9-8 and similarly, when Miami took off as a team, Lebron's individual play took off after a slow start.

I'm fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him.



What's your point? That Moses was more dominant than Dwight because we know that. He was also unquestionably more dominant than Rose and would have ran away with the MVP had he had that same '83 season in 2011.[/QUOTE]

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games (against the elite teams)

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose. he should have becuase he had a better fg percentage and more rbs but didnt win games? doesnt make sense.

[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose.[/QUOTE]

Well that's a rather arbitrary selection of games and arbitrary selection of stats for said arbitrarily selected games. Gotta try harder than that jizz :sleeping

[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games (against the elite teams)

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose. he should have becuase he had a better fg percentage and more rbs but didnt win games? doesnt make sense.[/QUOTE]

Stop spamming that shit all over the boards.

[QUOTE=aj1987][B]And this thread is also not about playing against the top teams[/B].:facepalm Doesn't matter if Lebron played better against the Raptors or Bucks. He [B]averaged[/B] more than Rose. Lebron had better stats and was a flat out better player. He was/is/and will always be better than Rose. He should have won the MVP.
Lerbon was a better passer, rebounder, scorer and defender than Rose.

Lebron >>>>>>>> Rose any way you look at it.
If you're suggesting that the Bulls >> the Heat in the RS, then I'd agree with you. Replace Rose with Lebron on that Bulls team and they win the title.[/QUOTE]

rose played and carried his team against real competition, he showed up in big moments. cant say the same for lebron. rose played better than lebron in 2011, deal with it. if people could even remember back to 2011, thats the year lebron was being ridiculed for passing on game deciding shots.

[QUOTE=Psycho]Well that's a rather arbitrary selection of games and arbitrary selection of stats for said arbitrarily selected games. Gotta try harder than that jizz :sleeping[/QUOTE]

you can do them against the top 7 6 5 4, rose will still be better than lebrons. these are real telling stats to why rose was chosen as mvp.

[QUOTE=HoopsFanNumero1]Stop spamming that shit all over the boards.[/QUOTE]

im only spreading the truth, any anti rose mvp thread is going to have those stats posted. deal with it.

Who gives a shit. MVP is such an arbitrary award. There's no real system for how it works. Rose had an incredible season, just let it be. And yes, this is a Heat fan saying this. Also, try and remember that the Bulls were an afterthought, and the Heat were being talked about as if they were going to go 73-9. I'm not saying Rose SHOULD have been the MVP - I honestly don't know who should have been, it's a very debatable argument between Rose-Howard-LeBron-Dirk; however, it's not a travesty that he got it.

[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games (against the elite teams)

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose. he should have becuase he had a better fg percentage and more rbs but didnt win games? doesnt make sense.[/QUOTE]
His whole post was about Dwight and you respond with something about Lebron...

:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Jameerthefear]His whole post was about Dwight and you respond with something about Lebron...[/QUOTE]

"im fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him."

:confusedshrug: he had 3 players ahead of rose who rosed performed better than. in reality dwight is the only debatable player that season against rose.

[QUOTE=Jameerthefear]His whole post was about Dwight and you respond with something about Lebron...[/QUOTE]

Better hit those books and turn off the Naruto son, you got those SATs coming up.

[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]rose played and carried his team against real competition, he showed up in big moments. cant say the same for lebron. rose played better than lebron in 2011, deal with it. if people could even remember back to 2011, thats the year lebron was being ridiculed for passing on game deciding shots.[/QUOTE]
As I said, the Bulls > Heat in the RS. Rose was nothing special at all. Even then, Bulls won only 4 games more than the Heat, with Lebron averaging considerably more than Rose. Rose was good, but not MVP good. If Rose played better than Lebron, he would've averaged more than Lebron or at the very least, played better defense. Oh wait, Rose doesn't know what defense is. Rose is not even close to being on Lebron's level. He's a shot jacking mental midget. Replace Lebron and Rose on the 2011 squads, Bulls win 68+ and the ring.
2011 Lebron >>>>>> Rose in scoring, rebounding, passing, and defense.

It's hilarious that people actually think rose deserved this award. Almost as funny as people thinking lebron deserved it. He was like the 4th best candidate that year. Dwight ****ing destroyed the league that year it is a travesty that he did NOT receive it. Rose did not deserve the award at all, Dwight didn't have anyone half as good as Noah (who cares if he missed 40 games?). Plus, rose ha the luxury of playing 0 defense. Dwight WAS the defense and carried a huge offensive load and rebounding load. Dwight was robbed like he was in south side Chicago

[B][SIZE="3"]Your MVP, warming up the bench like a scrub and loving it[/SIZE][/B]

[IMG]http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/rose-9-500x423.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]So? Moses doing it 3 times proves there are exceptions. Why can't Howard be one of them?[/quote]

Moses doing it 3 times out of nearly 60 MVP's proves that there are very rare exceptions, and that's not even mentioning Moses was a better player (but their similarities makes the comparison worth noting).

As for Rose's shooting, nobody notices his .45% shooting because 20+ other MVP winners have won it while shooting under .50% in general. It's more common.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]
Pretty arbitrary number picking 23 ppg, especially since Howard was at 22.9. 0.4 less than Duncan's 23.3 when he got his second MVP in 2003.[/quote]

Eh, Duncan was clearly more of "MVP of the league" despite their ppg being similar, for reasons I'm sure don't need to be explained. Duncan at times was like a low-post quarterback out there, Howard's passing game is more pedestrian and in the same ball park as a Jermaine Oneal or Amare Stoudemire, who at their best I wouldn't consider MVP's based on offense only (we know Dwight is better defensively).

If you consider 2 apg and 23 ppg (for any position) among MVP's (only) arbitrary numbers, that's your opinion. They're basic statistics, not some unnecessarily advanced number. Without calculating the averages of MVP's the last 15-20 years (the kind of league Dwight plays in), I'd venture to say they top or meet those two averages.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]But here's another one for Rose. His 4.1 rpg are the 3rd lowest ever in an NBA season with only 2001 Iverson(3.8 rpg) and 2005 Nash(3.3 rpg) averaging fewer.

In fact, those 3 seasons along with Nash in 2006 and Cousy in 1957 are the only 5 in NBA history where the MVP has averaged fewer than 5 rpg.

And Rose's combination of FG%(44.5) and rpg(4.1) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it only has one other time with Iverson in 2011.
[/quote]

I'd argue Rebounds from your PG are much less important than assists from your franchise/MVP big man. Thoughts? If anything, I think your numbers are a bit more arbitrary than mine are (according to you) but fair enough.

The fact that Rose (a PG) falls in line with Nash and Iverson's and other guards makes sense, because none of them need to be proficient rebounders for them to be convincing winners, superstars, or MVP's.

Dwight, I'd argue, would be a much better player if he had better court vision in passing game ala Duncan or even somebody a step or two down like Marc Gasol. And Howard's lack of that natural playmaking abilities is compounded by his high turnovers. IDK about 2011, but last season the league average was 2.6 assists per game I believe, higher than DH's career average.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]In the post-merger era, Howard's 2011 season is one of only 8 where a player has averaged at least 22 ppg and shot at least 59%. Here's the complete list.

1994 Shaq (29.3 ppg, 59.9 FG%) 20 FGA / 2 APG
1987 McHale (26.1 ppg, 60.4 FG%) 17 FGA / 3 APG
1990 Barkley (25.2 ppg, 60.0 FG%) 15 FGA / 4 APG
1980 Kareem (24.8 ppg, 60.4 FG%) 17 FGA / 5 APG
1987 Barkley (23.0 ppg, 59.4 FG%) 14 FGA / 5 APG
2011 Dwight (22.9 ppg, 59.3 FG%) [B]13 FGA / 1 APG[/B]
2005 Shaq (22.9 ppg, 60.1 FG%) 15 FGA / 3 APG
1988 McHale (22.6 ppg, 60.4 FG%) 14 FGA / 3 APG [/quote]

I added Field Goal Attempts and Assists Per game, to further get my point across

If you ask me, Dwight stands out in this list, despite his efficient, 22+ scoring.

I know he's a great dunker, can clean up around the basket, and showed improved moves (and range, somewhat) that season, but he's not an out of this world offensive player and I don't think his scoring was separated enough from other high scoring bigs on playoff teams that season (Dirk, Amare). Howard's a finisher/powerful player, who's improved greatly, but a finisher by nature, imo.

I added those stats, because it shows how much more they are complete offensive players, demand/take more shots, and have an offense revolved around them.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Not many players have scored as much as Howard did and shot the percentage he did. And the only other season where a player did that with at least 14 rpg like Howard was Barkley in 1987.

Lebron is tough because he was probably still the best player in the game, but he didn't have a great season by his standards, and his standards in other seasons shouldn't be a factor in most valuable player of a particular year, unfortunately, the voters often disagree. And considering Miami's expectations the 58 wins hurt, though they're explainable as part of their adjustment period since they started 9-8 and similarly, when Miami took off as a team, Lebron's individual play took off after a slow start.

I'm fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him.

What's your point? That Moses was more dominant than Dwight because we know that. He was also unquestionably more dominant than Rose and would have ran away with the MVP had he had that same '83 season in 2011.[/QUOTE]

That's exactly the point, Dwight is like a lesser version of Moses Malone while also being not as MVP-worthy (to the majority of voters) as peak 2011 Rose, yet it's hilarious when people think Howard on his 52-win team got robbed, when he's really just happens to be the best big in a league with no real elite bigs. He scores alot taking relatively few shots... The point is, his MVP would have stood out more than Rose's. If you don't agree, I can respect that. I could see it going to Lebron. Many people and players were taken aback by Rose's great season, and while I agree some of it's for a media-story, his season was definitely sick and filled with highlight moments and the stats back it all up.

[QUOTE=SCdac]Moses doing it 3 times out of nearly 60 MVP's proves that there are very rare exceptions, and that's not even mentioning Moses was a better player (but their similarities makes the comparison worth noting).[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but while Moses was the better player overall, it's important to note that Dwight proved to be far more of a defensive anchor and better defender, and that's largely what sets Dwight apart(when healthy) in the current league.

[QUOTE]As for Rose's shooting, nobody notices his .45% shooting because 20+ other MVP winners have won it while shooting under .50% in general. It's more common.[/QUOTE]

Pretty big difference between 45% and 50%.

It would be the same as me saying nobody notices Howard's 23 ppg because many MVPs have been under 25 ppg

Post-merger, 15 of the 37 MVPs have been under 25 ppg to be exact. And many of the MVPs pre-merger, in fact, out of 21 MVPs pre-merger, 11 were below 25 ppg.

[QUOTE]Eh, Duncan was clearly more of "MVP of the league" despite their ppg being similar, for reasons I'm sure don't need to be explained. Duncan at times was like a low-post quarterback out there, Howard's passing game is more pedestrian and in the same ball park as a Jermaine Oneal or Amare Stoudemire, who at their best I wouldn't consider MVP's based on offense only (we know Dwight is better defensively).[/QUOTE]

Agreed, I was just pointing out that their scoring averages were very similar.

[QUOTE]If you consider 2 apg and 23 ppg (for any position) among MVP's (only) arbitrary numbers, that's your opinion. They're basic statistics, not some unnecessarily advanced number. Without calculating the averages of MVP's the last 15-20 years (the kind of league Dwight plays in), I'd venture to say they top or meet those two averages.[/QUOTE]

I meant 23 ppg is an arbitrary number for a cut off point.

[QUOTE]I'd argue Rebounds from your PG are much less important than assists from your franchise/MVP big man. Thoughts? If anything, I think your numbers are a bit more arbitrary than mine are (according to you) but fair enough.[/QUOTE]

Well, if you mean your star big man passing well is more important your point guard rebounding, I agree, though assist numbers themselves can be especially deceptive with big men. Though in Dwight's case, he wasn't a very good passer.

[QUOTE]The fact that Rose (a PG) falls in line with Nash and Iverson's and other guards makes sense, because none of them need to be proficient rebounders for them to be convincing winners, superstars, or MVP's.[/QUOTE]

But it does bring to mind how view point guards have actually been MVP, well, Iverson was technically a SG, though as a 6'0" player who had to guard opposing PGs more often than not, this is largely irrelevant.

And wouldn't you agree it's fair to say that all 3 are near the bottom as far as defensive impact? Nash being bad, Iverson being hit or miss and Rose being average for his position, imo.

[QUOTE]Dwight, I'd argue, would be a much better player if he had better court vision in passing game ala Duncan or even somebody a step or two down like Marc Gasol. And Howard's lack of that natural playmaking abilities is compounded by his high turnovers. IDK about 2011, but last season the league average was 2.6 assists per game I believe, higher than DH's career average.[/QUOTE]

I agree, I remember saying in 2011 that the one thing I was really looking for him to improve on was his passing.

[QUOTE]I know he's a great dunker, can clean up around the basket, and showed improved moves (and range, somewhat) that season, but he's not an out of this world offensive player and I don't think his scoring was separated enough from other high scoring bigs on playoff teams that season (Dirk, Amare). Howard's a finisher/powerful player, who's improved greatly, but a finisher by nature, imo.[/QUOTE]

I agree, but what sets him apart was not his offense, but his defense, as well as the 14 rpg. The 23 ppg on 59% is a bonus, and pretty damn productive despite the low assists/high turnovers.

[QUOTE]I added those stats, because it shows how much more they are complete offensive players, demand/take more shots, and have an offense revolved around them.[/QUOTE]

No doubt about it. Kareem, Shaq, McHale and Barkley are on the short list of greatest offensive PF/Cs ever.

[QUOTE]That's exactly the point, Dwight is like a lesser version of Moses Malone while also being not as MVP-worthy (to the majority of voters) as peak 2011 Rose, yet it's hilarious when people think Howard on his 52-win team got robbed, when he's really just happens to be the best big in a league with no real elite bigs. He scores alot taking relatively few shots... The point is, his MVP would have stood out more than Rose's. If you don't agree, I can respect that. I could see it going to Lebron. Many people and players were taken aback by Rose's great season, and while I agree some of it's for a media-story, his season was definitely sick and filled with highlight moments and the stats back it all up.[/QUOTE]

Howard probably would stand out more, but it'd be due to his team's relatively low win total, imo. I'm simply talking about my personal opinion on who was the better player, made the bigger impact on the court and was more valuable to their team. I personally believe Howard is the answer for all 3.

[QUOTE=aj1987]As I said, the Bulls > Heat in the RS. [B]Rose was nothing special at all[/B]. Even then, Bulls won only 4 games more than the Heat, with Lebron averaging considerably more than Rose. Rose was good, but not MVP good. If Rose played better than Lebron, he would've averaged more than Lebron or at the very least, played better defense. Oh wait, Rose doesn't know what defense is. Rose is not even close to being on Lebron's level. He's a shot jacking mental midget. Replace Lebron and Rose on the 2011 squads, Bulls win 68+ and the ring.
2011 Lebron >>>>>> Rose in scoring, rebounding, passing, and defense.[/QUOTE]

rose was nothing special at all? i can guarantee the only play youve seen from derrick that season were top ten on espn:roll: yea only winning 4 more games then the heat, but then you look at my stats against elite teams then its more telling, but you dont want to look at them or consider them because "oh no there just stats against elite teams and not what my player does again non competition."



lebron was a loser that season. he played good for 3 quarters and disappeared in the 4th, everyone that watched remembers this. having a losing record against elite teams isnt mvp worthy, especially losing most of the last 9 games against elite teams, and having rose win 12 straight against these elite teams, isnt going to make you mvp over rose. sorry try again.

ohyea, remember at the end of the season the heat falling apart and had a streak of losing games? they were the laughing stalk of the nba. crygate? yea, lebron should have been mvp. smh

Dwight should have won it that year.