Do you think life exists elsewhere in the universe?

[QUOTE=Lebowsky]This is not correct. You can formulate the Law of Truly Large numbers in layman's terms (not the Law of Large Numbers, mind you) as: given a certain experiment, even the most unlikely outcomes are bound to happen after enough repetitions. Consider this example from wikipedia:

[/QUOTE]

Yes, the ol' "tennis ball through the wall" concept, i.e. quantum probability. I'm familiar with it, in fact I was drunkenly trying to explain it to a chick at a bar (not even kidding about this) just a couple weeks ago.

But:

[QUOTE=Lebowsky]
You're getting stuck on the fact that it is currently unknown how life appeared on earth, but that's irrelevant. The specific contiditions under which life originated on Earth don't matter at all. The fact that life appeared is infinitesimaly likely, but [B]the fact that the universe is infinitely large[/B] brings the probability of life happening infinitely close to 1. Life may have happened just like it happened on Earth (however that may be), or in a completely different manner. Scientists look for life in Earthlike planets because we know life somehow appeared under our conditions, not because it's the only way it can happen. Targeting any other set of conditions would be a blind, fruitless endeavour.[/QUOTE]


This is where I see a faulty premise.

[quote]
Is The Universe Infinite? Not Likely, Say Physicists
February 19, 2013


Lee Rannals for redOrbit.com — Your Universe Online

Scientists at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory (FNAL) told reporters the universe may not be infinite after all.

Joseph Lykken, a theoretical physicist with FNAL in Batavia, Illinois, spoke to reporters at the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) meeting in Boston, saying recent calculations show its “bad news” for the future of the universe.

“It may be that the universe we live in is inherently unstable and at some point billions of years from now it’s all going to get wiped out,” Lykken, who is also on the science team at Europe’s Large Hadron Collider, or LHC, told Reuters.

[continues]

[URL="http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1112787040/universe-not-infinite-after-all-021913/"]http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1112787040/universe-not-infinite-after-all-021913/[/URL][/quote]


Scientists at the LHC do not even know if the universe is infinite, nor if a collection of multiverses exist. You cannot use that as a definitive premise. That's the road tpols went down and was really the crux of my disagreement. It is an unproven assumption.

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]Yes, the ol' "tennis ball through the wall" concept, i.e. quantum probability. I'm familiar with it, in fact I was drunkenly trying to explain it to a chick at a bar (not even kidding about this) just a couple weeks ago.

But:




This is where I see a faulty premise.




Scientists at the LHC do not even know if the universe is infinite, nor if a collection of multiverses exist. You cannot use that as a definitive premise. That's the road tpols went down and was really the crux of my disagreement. It is an unproven assumption.[/QUOTE]

I agree there is not a consensus, but most evidence points in the direction of the universe being flat and infinite. [URL="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html"]Check out this link from NASA.[/URL]

Of course the jury is still out on these matters, and we won't probably have answers to all these questions in our lifetime (if ever at all), but for now we have to go with what logic hints, and I believe it does hint in the direction I tried to show.

Stop bringing irrelevant topics about what scientists don't know. The observable universe is so large that the probability of life occurring on another planet is almost 100%.

[QUOTE=Lebowsky]I agree there is not a consensus, but most evidence points in the direction of the universe being flat and infinite. [URL="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html"]Check out this link from NASA.[/URL]

Of course the jury is still out on these matters, and we won't probably have answers to all these questions in our lifetime (if ever at all), but for now we have to go with what logic hints, and I believe it does hint in the direction I tried to show.[/QUOTE]


I certainly don't discount it. But for me personally, when someone makes the argument for life elsewhere based on the vastness of space (and only vastness can be proven, not endlessness) the strongest endorsement I can give it is a solid "maybe so". For me there is not enough right now to go beyond that. Maybe I'm being extra cautious, but in science that's no crime.


edit: Because how big do you want to go? If we are talking about spontaneous life generation being probable due to large numbers, then is there a replication of our entire planet, centimeter by centimeter, of water and terrain? Somewhere out there that has the Alaskan coast shaped exactly like ours and at the same latitude, while also having the Madagascarian coast shaped and located the same way??? If we are theorizing based on probabilities and infinites, there has to be. What about our exact solar system? So many trillions of galaxies, is there an exact copy of Earth, equidistant to an exact copy of Mars, equidistant to an exact copy of Jupiter, etc?

IMO you just don't know that. It's getting way too speculative. It is not a sound argument IMO to state any of those things definitively, including the supposition about life. Especially with no proof that the universe is truly "infinite." Infinity itself is not even a completely graspable concept in the physical world.

[QUOTE=Jello]Stop bringing irrelevant topics about what scientists don't know. The observable universe is so large that the probability of life occurring on another planet is almost 100%.[/QUOTE]



:lol





[IMG]http://cdn.pophangover.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/good-job-good-effort-kid-e1339021157881.jpg[/IMG]

I'd be shocked if there wasn't. There's too many planets out there in the universe that we humans can't possibly comprehend. There's no way Earth is the only planet in the universe with life IMO.

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]I certainly don't discount it. But for me personally, when someone makes the argument for life elsewhere based on the vastness of space (and only vastness can be proven, not endlessness) the strongest endorsement I can give it is a solid "maybe so". [B]For me there is not enough right now to go beyond that. [B]Maybe I'm being extra cautious, but in science that's no crime.[/B][/B][/QUOTE]

That is certainly a sensible standpoint, absolutely nothing wrong with it. When statistical analysis is your bread and butter you tend to see statistical certainty as fact, which is my case here.

[QUOTE=DaSeba5][B]I'd be shocked[/B] if there wasn't. There's too many planets out there in the universe that we humans can't possibly comprehend. There's no way Earth is the only planet in the universe with life [B]IMO.[/B][/QUOTE]


Just to be clear, I'm ok with these kinds of statements. I can accept your personal inclinations even if I am not nearly as confident in them. It's just when people are spouting things with certainty and don't even realize how scientifically unsound they're being as they wax triumphantly, is what I think is pretty silly.

Anyway, good fun topic. I gotta scram now, but enjoyed the dialogue.

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]Just to be clear, I'm ok with these kinds of statements. I can accept your personal inclinations even if I am not nearly as confident in them. It's just when people are spouting things with certainty and don't even realize how scientifically unsound they're being as they wax triumphantly, is what I think is pretty silly.

Anyway, good fun topic. I gotta scram now, but enjoyed the dialogue.[/QUOTE]

Nobody knows for sure until we have proof. Anyone who claims they know is full of shit.

[QUOTE=Lebowsky]That is certainly a sensible standpoint, absolutely nothing wrong with it. When statistical analysis is your bread and butter you tend to see statistical certainty as fact, which is my case here.[/QUOTE]


Yep, and I totally understand that. But my thing is that its become evident so far that there are no truly unbreakable laws in physics. Guys like Einstein and Heisenberg have created extremely precise probability equations that guarantee precise results for predicting things like atomic movement or galactic interaction... and yet when they do the measurements, the universe behaves differently. There is no certainty.

Statistics are obviously a math thing, and math gives us some of our most nearly unbreakable laws. As you said, things that happen with such near certainty, it approaches infinite. So I can def see how a stats buff would be especially skeptical. But the one thing that trumps even math has been shown to be universal uncertainty. It's bizare but true. That's why you have to be extremely wary about things in the physical world until you see them with your own eyes. Obviously the physical world and mathematics are [I]extremely[/I] closely connected... but not identical.

Starface is too stupid to realize that making a statement of probability is not a definitive statement. As usual, he just misconstrues another poster's argument so he can push his shallow understanding of science.

[QUOTE=Jello]Starface is too stupid to realize that making a statement of probability is not a definitive statement. As usual, he just misconstrues another poster's argument so he can push his shallow understanding of science.[/QUOTE]


:wtf:











:lol





[IMG]http://cdn.pophangover.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/good-job-good-effort-kid-e1339021157881.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]Just to be clear, I'm ok with these kinds of statements. I can accept your personal inclinations even if I am not nearly as confident in them. It's just when people are spouting things with certainty and don't even realize how scientifically unsound they're being as they wax triumphantly, is what I think is pretty silly.

Anyway, good fun topic. I gotta scram now, but enjoyed the dialogue.[/QUOTE]


I'm not sure if I can take polite, analytical Starface. This might be proof positive of the existence of a parallel, opposite universe.

[QUOTE=DaSeba5]Nobody knows for sure until we have proof. [B]Anyone who claims they know is full of shit[/B].[/QUOTE]

it isn't impossible that some people know for fact

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]it isn't impossible that some people know for fact[/QUOTE]




[IMG]http://www.zawarudo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/mind-blown-2_thumb.gif[/IMG]

It surely exists since the universe is pretty much infinite. But at the same time it's most likely that we ll never meet any other form of extraterrestrial life given the universe's dimension.

Thanks for taking a decent "thinking" discussion and turning it into a dumbass argument where you call everyone with a different opinion than you out, osb#52. That's what people love on message boards. They love having some random poster try and debunk their OPINIONS.

[QUOTE=Scholar]Thanks for taking a decent "thinking" discussion and turning it into a dumbass argument where you call everyone with a different opinion than you out, osb#52. That's what people love on message boards. They love having some random poster try and debunk their OPINIONS.[/QUOTE]



Umm, you're welcome f@ggot

Yes...although I think complex Lifeforms are extremely rare throughout the Universe . The universe is so vast that it could contain many Earth-like planets. But if such planets exist, they are likely to be separated from each other by many thousands of light years



Other Thoughts..

- the fundamental blueprint for life...is the same.....anywhere in the Universe.

[QUOTE]water in the liquid state...:
galactic habitable zone,
a central star and planetary system having the requisite character, the circumstellar habitable zone,

a right sized terrestrial planet, the advantage of a gas giant guardian and large satellite, conditions needed to assure the planet has a magnetosphere and plate tectonics, the chemistry of the lithosphere, atmosphere, and oceans, [/QUOTE]

at least they need a pretty darn close equation to get multicellular life forms



[B]would they look like us[/B]..IMO most likely....slight aesthetic differences.....but a similar skeleton structure

[B]religion?[/B] - not sure how I would feel.....I believe in many different religions.....it would be really cool if the ET's had giant Cross when they landed....or a Jade Buddha....or their own similar religious beliefs........I would LMAO.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24][B]religion?[/B] - not sure how I would feel.....I believe in many different religions.....it would be really cool if the ET's had giant Cross when they landed....or a Jade Buddha....or their own similar religious beliefs........I would LMAO.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, maybe a spaceship will land, an alien steps outside...and hands us the Book of Mormon...

i don't think i'd jump out of my seat in utter disbelief if some scientist discovered that out of hundreds of billions of planets, there was or were another planet(s) that had oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and out from environment, life in the tiniest form developed. it's not a conviction based on evidence because there is no evidence. it is conjecture based on imagination, and that's why the title of the thread was "DO YOU THINK" instead of "DO YOU KNOW FOR A FACT...."

Who knows. There's probably some other living creature on another planet asking the same question. This is just one of those subjects that we'll probably never have an answer to. Sucks when you have a problem and no solution whatsoever.

For those who even for a second thought OldSkoolball#52 was making some sense, I am here to tell you most of his thinking was logically flawed. You can breathe now.

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]Yes I realize species evolved over many years. But we do not know the PRECISE conditions under which life [U]originally[/U] generated. How do you know the improbability of it? If you know anything about quantum physics, you'd know the saying "Nothing is mathematically impossibe. Only improbable." So how do you know the exact, EXACT conditions to generate a cell on Earth, down to the very nanoliter of methane, and carbon, the specific distance in milimeters from the sun, the parts per billion of salinity in the water... wasn't a one-in-a-googleplex probability that hasn't been replicated anywhere else? So far seven billion people on Earth and counting, and none with the same fingerprints. Even more snowflakes, and still no two alike. Even beyond the assumption that life can be physically and spontaneously generated by chance (and I agree that is valid as a theory) there is also the possibility that reality itself is far more complex than you can even imagine right now. You cited gravity as a physical law. What is this, 1950? You don't realize the law of gravity breaks down in certain instances and scientists have absolutely no idea how or why??

The fact is you don't know. Your romantic leap to "it has to be!" is no more grounded in evidential logic than someone claiming that there has to be a design to life because there are questions science can't answer. You're enticed by the idea of life out there, so you are racing ahead to that conclusion without the proper logistic backing, same as anyone else might do with a given religion.[/QUOTE]


I agree with this dude.

[QUOTE=Gifted Mind]For those who even for a second thought OldSkoolball#52 was making some sense, I am here to tell you most of his thinking was logically flawed. You can breathe now.[/QUOTE]


Dis fool :lol

Yes, the Malaysia plane is floating in space somewhere
[COLOR="White"]Don't hate me[/COLOR]

I believe life exists elsewhere in the universe. The question is, what type/level of life. If we can all agree the universe is some 13.7 billion years old (and that's a pretty firm number) that would mean all life elsewhere if it does exists means they're subject to the same time clock we are. So that life could possibly be (even likely) way more primitive than us. Think about it, we're just now evolving to the level we are today and that was 4.6 billion years in the making. I can't say for sure, but I believe hearing somewhere we belong to a relatively older star / solar system out there, more than most.

On the other hand, it's possible we're way behind a single or perhaps thousands (or even more there's just no way of knowing) of extraterrestrial species out there. It's possible they could have mutated and evolved at a much quicker rate than we have. Think about how much we furthered ourselves in the past 200 years alone; now imagine some extraterrestrial species / civilization out there who's endured their own "industrial revolution" a thousand times over to our one. Perhaps they didn't need a massive species like the dinosaurs to exists first and be eliminated before making way for a more sophisticated / advanced species similar to us, perhaps much better.

"Flash the message - something's out there!"

I believe there is some form of life or has been in the past. It's not logical to assume life will have taken the same path we have, you need to consider the fact that there's many different organisms on earth that have been far more successful at survival (which is all evolution cares about) than humans have been. It's also a little silly to assume that if there is intelligent life it would happen to be around in the tiny window of time that the human race has been around. We're just a tiny speck in the timeline of earth let alone other solar systems and planets. With the regularity of extinction events on earth it'd be a big con incidence to have another intelligent race be knocking around at the same time as us.

Some humans are so self-centered that they actually believe we're the only planet in the universe that has life.

F***ing idiots.

I'm confident that yes life exists somewhere else in this universe. I would go as far to say I guarantee it. All the elements needed for life to exist are scattered throughout the universe. All our metals on this planet were created in our Sun. The gold and silver. The iron in our blood.

The universe is filled with stars like our sun and surrounded by planets. Statistically one of those planets had to have been formed in a similar manner at just the right distance. That would probably mean that as the planet cooled life formed in some body of water. First single celled organisms acted on by natural selection.

[QUOTE=chosen_one6]Some humans are so self-centered that they actually believe we're the only planet in the universe that has life.

F***ing idiots.[/QUOTE]

This happens when children are indoctrinated. When you're told as a child that something is true, and that anyone that tells you otherwise is wrong, you don't really have a chance. That's why forcing religion on children is child abuse. Telling something what to think instead of how to think is sick.

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]This happens when children are indoctrinated. When you're told as a child that something is true, and that anyone that tells you otherwise is wrong, you don't really have a chance. That's why forcing religion on children is child abuse. Telling something what to think instead of how to think is sick.[/QUOTE]

I agree. It's ironic that we have licenses and tests that need to be passed for some of the most simple and also difficult tasks in life, yet no license or test is needed to be deemed worthy of raising a child/family.

If there is a 1-in-a-billion chance that a given planet has life on it, than conservative estimates would suggest there are 100 planets with life on them within the Milky Way alone.

[url]http://www.voanews.com/content/galaxy-100-billion-planets-caltech/1577962.html[/url]

I'd say it's impossible that there isn't life elsewhere in the universe. When people talk about Aliens we automatically think of advanced green men in flying saucers. This could be true however something as simple as marine life like fish would confirm Alien life.

I don't think we've ever been visited. A conspiracy like that would get leaked. I think places like Area 51 are so secretive because of what man is creating.

im surprised that rambo has not posted on this thread yet

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]This happens when children are indoctrinated. When you're told as a child that something is true, and that anyone that tells you otherwise is wrong, you don't really have a chance. That's why forcing religion on children is child abuse. Telling something what to think instead of how to think is sick.[/QUOTE]

:lol

This is funny. Coming from the guy who guarantees life is somewhere else.

"The man who thinks he is wise, is a fool. Only the man who knows he is a fool, is wise" - Socrates


You dont even know what the universe is. You dont know what creation is. You dont know how life started.

Yet here you have proclaimed "We are not alone in this Universe!"

:oldlol:

You have watched a documentary or two on the size of space and digested it as gospel. You have not given thought to what the information and contradictions of life could possibly mean. There are theories with a fair amount of gravitas within the scientific community that suggest an infinite number of slightly different parallel universes. If this is true, who is to say we are not within one of the variations wherein only Earth has evolved life in the universe? If there are infinite possibilities, surely that is one of them. But no, "I guarantee we are not alone!"

Consider that atoms technically do not even have STRUCTURE until we observe them. Who is to say you or I am not a being who only perceives the reality we live in, and the rest does not exist? If that is true, and we do not have aliens here, then there is nowhere else for them to be.

"Mich Kaku told me teh universe is THISSSSSS big! (Holds hands a part). Since Im not like a little christian sheep, i figureded out its like, we CANT be alone! I can guarantee it on the internet right now!"



:roll: This foolish, try-hard intellectual dweeb. Keep polishing up your "Thats racist!" political talking points and your "I know teh science, man!" intellectual affirmation crutch. You are literally the perfect liberal. You think you know everything, while somewhere (perhaps) Socrates is laughing at your stupid ass.









"I guarantee it!"

[QUOTE=step_back]I'd say it's impossible that there isn't life elsewhere in the universe. When people talk about Aliens we automatically think of advanced green men in flying saucers. This could be true however something as simple as marine life like fish would confirm Alien life.

I don't think we've ever been visited. A conspiracy like that would get leaked. I think places like Area 51 are so secretive because of what man is creating.[/QUOTE]


Its sad that even the wisest mind, a grain of sand on an endless beach, is still Mt Kilimanjaro compared to some of yours.

Rose City condemns people who read the bible and accept its conclusions on all of existence.

Then he goes and watches a space program, and accepts its conclusions on all of existence.

:oldlol:


Heres a tip, you silly f@ggot: Try reading or watching something, and then thinking.


:pimp:

[QUOTE=Akrazotile]Its sad that even the wisest mind, a grain of sand on an endless beach, is still Mt Kilimanjaro compared to some of yours.[/QUOTE]

And what are you basing your scientific theories on? Well I can't see it so it ain't there?

Stephen Hawking's has talked on many occasions about the possibility of life in our own Solar system. That isn't even a spec in our own galaxy. We estimate that the Universe is around 13.7 billion years old however that is just what we can see meaning it's the observable universe.

I'm sticking with the professor on this issue.

[QUOTE=step_back]
Stephen Hawking's has talked on many occasions about the [B][U]possibility[/U][/B] of life in our own Solar system. [/QUOTE]


And you and Rose City just kind of "finished his thought" for him by guaranteeing it, huh?

:oldlol: