Discussing the Bulls chances of beating the Heat in a 7 game series

[QUOTE=plowking]You mean the Bull's team defense don't you?[/QUOTE]

Now if you want a good example of elite man defense, just watch my man Butler.. :rockon:

[QUOTE=poido123]Now if you want a good example of elite man defense, just watch my man Butler.. :rockon:[/QUOTE]

He literally did the exact same thing Lebron did to Rose. Instead of having no elite defensive bigs, Butler does have some to funnel Lebron into. :oldlol:

LOL this moron already doing damage control in case lebron lose. This guy only can win in this situation:

-Lebron lose in the playoffs: "Oh shit, he didn

[QUOTE=plowking][B]He literally did the exact same thing Lebron did to Rose. Instead of having no elite defensive bigs, Butler does have some to funnel Lebron into.[/B] :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

If you have some tape, go back and watch the 2012 Bulls v Heat matchup and tell me how much help defense Butler needed when defending Lebron and how many times Lebron passed the ball off because of his defensive pressure.

Then go have a look at the 2011 matchup and tell me that Lebron defended Rose near as good or defended his man in the same manner. Tell me if you notice any differences in defensive style and intensity.

The big difference is Lebron used funneling tactics to trap and cutoff driving lanes with the help of his teammates. Butler had the ability to stay in front of Lebron most of the time and force him to pass the ball off. In fact, Lebron looked so rattled out there, he was very quiet for much of that series.

I think the Bulls need a bonfide 2nd scorer to beat the Heat.

I'd be really curious to see If they could Lamarcus Aldridge on that Team without giving up too much.

[QUOTE=TonyMontana]With Rose they had both the first seed in both 2011 and 2012. I don't see a reason for that to change. They didn't have Jimmy Butler in those years either, so adding him makes the team much better.

The Heats cast is only getting older and less effective. Other than LeBron there is no gamechanger on the roster and it will be an uphill battle for LeBron to bring Miami a championship with a Wade and Bosh that become even less effective.

If we look at the top 5 players on either team, 4 of them are Bulls. Heres the rankings.
[B]-LeBron James
-Joakim Noah
-Jimmy Butler
-Taj Gibson
-Derrick Rose[/B]

This has some strong potential of being like the Cleveland/Boston series

Those 4 Bulls have higher value than any other player on the Heat. Then they also have guys like Luol Deng, Boozer, Hinrich. This team has a lot of depth and there is no way they'll be able to keep this team together. Guys will be gone when they find themselves unable to afford all of these players.

The only way Miami are the favorites is if Wade/Oden show zero problems regarding injuries. Especially Oden. He is the second most important player after LeBron on the team. If he can give them 20 minutes of quality 7 footer play that will be huge.[/QUOTE]

Taj Gibson > Wade.

:oldlol:

Damn, that Butler defense overrating is pretty laughable:lol The only reason LeBron's numbers against the Bulls were bad was his shot being off. He got past Butler anytime he wanted to because of the guy's completly pointless overplaying and if anyone stopped him, it was the help defense.

He is right though. Lebron never won a ring when Rose was healthy + is playing.

[QUOTE=Trollsmasher]Damn, that Butler defense overrating is pretty laughable:lol The only reason LeBron's numbers against the Bulls were bad was his shot being off. He got past Butler anytime he wanted to because of the guy's completly pointless overplaying and if anyone stopped him, it was the help defense.[/QUOTE]

:facepalm

At least try to be somewhat objective.

I see you didn't watch the games :lol

[QUOTE=poido123]If you have some tape, go back and watch the 2012 Bulls v Heat matchup and tell me how much help defense Butler needed when defending Lebron and how many times Lebron passed the ball off because of his defensive pressure.

Then go have a look at the 2011 matchup and tell me that Lebron defended Rose near as good or defended his man in the same manner. Tell me if you notice any differences in defensive style and intensity.

The big difference is Lebron used funneling tactics to trap and cutoff driving lanes with the help of his teammates. Butler had the ability to stay in front of Lebron most of the time and force him to pass the ball off. In fact, Lebron looked so rattled out there, he was very quiet for much of that series.[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHwMkn6tvnE[/url]

Look at every time Lebron drives. :oldlol:
A trap. Funneled into big men. Crowded, surrounded, etc. All he did was funnel and trap every time Lebron went inside.

And Butler's defense got so overrated. Lebron did a far better job stopping Rose than Butler stopping Lebron.

The one player that played Lebron well, straight up 1 on 1 the whole time was Danny Green.

[QUOTE=plowking]:roll: :roll: :roll:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHwMkn6tvnE[/url]

Look at every time Lebron drives. :oldlol:
A trap. Funneled into big men. Crowded, surrounded, etc. All he did was funnel and trap every time Lebron went inside.[/QUOTE]
Most of those were one on ones. Rd are u talking about. Just look at the first 3 plays of the video. He seats his shit, contest post up attempt, and a contested 3 point shot.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Most of those were one on ones. Rd are u talking about. Just look at the first 3 plays of the video. He seats his shit, contest post up attempt, and a contested 3 point shot.[/QUOTE]

I'm talking about when he drives.
The first two times Lebron is inside, Butler forces him into doubles. lol.

This according to poido is team defense, not 1 on 1. I'm just going by his definition. :oldlol:

The only 2 good examples of 1 on 1 man defense according to poido are 2:02 and 4:55 in the whole video. Because apparently forcing a player into bad spots and shots on the court isn't considered man defense.

[QUOTE=plowking]:roll: :roll: :roll:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHwMkn6tvnE[/url]

Look at every time Lebron drives. :oldlol:
A trap. Funneled into big men. Crowded, surrounded, etc. All he did was funnel and trap every time Lebron went inside.[/QUOTE]
Exactly what I was saying. And even with that help defense, the only reason LeBron's numbers were worse than normal was him missing shots he normally makes.

[QUOTE=plowking]I'm talking about when he drives.
The first two times Lebron is inside, Butler forces him into doubles. lol.

This according to poido is team defense, not 1 on 1. I'm just going by his definition. :oldlol:

The only 2 good examples of 1 on 1 man defense according to poido are 2:02 and 4:55 in the whole video. Because apparently forcing a player into bad spots and shots on the court isn't considered man defense.[/QUOTE]
When he drives it's mostly one on one. Obviously the big will rotate. That's every defense. Most of it was one on one defense. What doubles? I saw one double and that was with Teague on that post up and Teague didn't even jump so he had no effect.

[QUOTE=Trollsmasher]Exactly what I was saying. And even with that help defense, the only reason LeBron's numbers were worse than normal was him missing shots he normally makes.[/QUOTE]
He didn't make it because of how hard Butler was playing him. Denying him the ball, not getting normal postioning and contesting his shot. That's how you get players out of rhythm. Which is why he was a good defender.

[QUOTE=plowking]:roll: :roll: :roll:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHwMkn6tvnE[/url]

Look at every time Lebron drives. :oldlol:
A trap. Funneled into big men. Crowded, surrounded, etc. All he did was funnel and trap every time Lebron went inside.[/QUOTE]

:biggums:

I saw Lebron drive by Butler on a few occasions when Lebron got the quick first step on him and Butler lost his step or got up on him to close or overplayed him. But what that video did show, was how often Butler was able to keep in front of Lebron and contest his shots more often than Lebron getting past him.

I saw no strategy of funneling in any of those defensive sequences, I saw Lebron drive to the hole and then the help defense came in once he got close to the basket? That happens in all NBA games :oldlol:

I saw lots of high screens set for Lebron, but Butler was good enough to get around most of them.

What you think is funnelling is not what I am talking about. That is the old traditional defense where a big man is drawn into the play once an offensive player has penetrated the perimeter. Just about every defensive play in the NBA does that when a guard gets by his man.

Im talking about when there is a high screen trap or a Heat teammate coming accross 8 feet from the basket and closing the gate on Rose's drives. That is quite different to a bigman coming to help on the last line of defense.

[QUOTE=juju151111]When he drives it's mostly one on one. Obviously the big will rotate. That's every defense. Most of it was one on one defense. What doubles? I saw one double and that was with Teague on that post up and Teague didn't even jump so he had no effect.[/QUOTE]

We'll go through them...

2. Beli rotates over on the drive... Noah is hedging the whole time on the post up, and Brewer helps.
1:10 - Noah hedging and helping the whole time, where Butler is forcing him. Not man on man (all according to poido, not my definition).
1:29 - Noah comes across where Butler is forcing him. Even Boozer hedges over. (again not man on man according to the definition I was given in the other thread).
1:38 - Lebron gets to the ring easy and misses an easy layup. Noah again comes over but was late, hence Lebron being able to get the ring easy. No one to help Butler.
2:00 - First play of good man defense according to poido.


Etc, etc...

Butler got way too much credit for overplaying on James, because he could afford to having the best defensive bigs in the league waiting for James in the key.

[QUOTE=poido123]:biggums:

I saw Lebron drive by Butler on a few occasions when Lebron got the quick first step on him and Butler lost his step or got up on him to close or overplayed him. But what that video did show, was how often Butler was able to keep in front of Lebron and contest his shots more often than Lebron getting past him.

I saw no strategy of funneling in any of those defensive sequences, I saw Lebron drive to the hole and then the help defense came in once he got close to the basket? That happens in all NBA games :oldlol:

I saw lots of high screens set for Lebron, but Butler was good enough to get around most of them.

What you think is funnelling is not what I am talking about. That is the old traditional defense where a big man is drawn into the play once an offensive player has penetrated the perimeter. Just about every defensive play in the NBA does that when a guard gets by his man.

I mean where there is a high screen trap or a Heat teammate coming accross 8 feet from the basket and closing the gate on Rose's drives.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

Its actually hilarious you can claim that.

Taj Gibson in most of the plays completely ignores his player and watches Lebron the whole time. At all times there is a 2 man hedge on the side Lebron is on. :oldlol:

Its funny you think this is a better example of great defense compared to Lebron on Rose. Lebron didn't have big guys hedging over for him like Butler did. He worked his ass off to keep Rose on the perimeter.

[QUOTE=plowking]I'm talking about when he drives.
The first two times Lebron is inside, Butler forces him into doubles. lol.

This according to poido is team defense, not 1 on 1. I'm just going by his definition. :oldlol:

The only 2 good examples of 1 on 1 man defense according to poido are 2:02 and 4:55 in the whole video. Because apparently forcing a player into bad spots and shots on the court isn't considered man defense.[/QUOTE]

LOL at there only being 2 good instances of good man to man defense in this video. :oldlol:

You watch games with a totally different view of everyone else Plowking.

Butler manned Lebron up and contested at least 75% of all those defensive sequences and that's being generous. Excellent example of how to defend a tough opponent like Lebron.

I'd love for you to post a link of Lebron playing defense on Rose in 2011. Then we can compare the two :pimp:

[QUOTE=poido123]LOL at there only being 2 good instances of good man to man defense in this video. :oldlol:

You watch games with a totally different view of everyone else Plowking.

Butler manned Lebron up and contested at least 75% of all those defensive sequences and that's being generous. Excellent example of how to defend a tough opponent like Lebron.

I'd love for you to post a link of Lebron playing defense on Rose in 2011. Then we can compare the two :pimp:[/QUOTE]

I don't, I'm using your definition you gave me in the other thread. And going by that, this isn't great man defense.
My own opinion, based on my own definition was that it was as good a job as most people do on Lebron.

I can't find a video, but it'd be the exact same thing, except without great defensive bigs. Then I'd be told how its somehow different by you, and Lebron is using help defense. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=plowking]:oldlol:

Its actually hilarious you can claim that.

Taj Gibson in most of the plays completely ignores his player and watches Lebron the whole time. At all times there is a 2 man hedge on the side Lebron is on. :oldlol:

[B]Its funny you think this is a better example of great defense compared to Lebron on Rose. Lebron didn't have big guys hedging over for him like Butler did. He worked his ass off to keep Rose on the perimeter.[/B][/QUOTE]


I want to see video evidence and prove it. I'd really like to see what you come up with and how you explain Lebron defending Rose better :oldlol:

[QUOTE=plowking]I don't, I'm using your definition you gave me in the other thread. And going by that, this isn't great man defense.
My own opinion, based on my own definition was that it was as good a job as most people do on Lebron.

[B]I can't find a video, but it'd be the exact same thing, except without great defensive bigs. Then I'd be told how its somehow different by you, and Lebron is using help defense[/B]. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]


Well it would be, the style of the defense and the tactics would be different and I'm sure of it. :confusedshrug:

Anyways, look like we are heading for a stalemate, you see it one way, I see it another. Happens alot on message boards :lol

Shaking my heads at the posters who are trying to discredit Jimmy Butlers defense on LBJ by saying the Bulls' bigs are also focusing on him.. What the hell do you expect lmao, this is the best player in the world we're talking about, of course they use their entire team to defend him. :lol That doesn't take anything away from the amazing job Butler did on James in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=TheReturn]Shaking my heads at the posters who are trying to discredit Jimmy Butlers defense on LBJ by saying the Bulls' bigs are also focusing on him.. What the hell do you expect lmao, this is the best player in the world we're talking about, of course they use their entire team to defend him. :lol That doesn't take anything away from the amazing job Butler did on James in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]


I rarely saw the bigs actually trap or double team Lebron? Sure they were aware of Lebron at all times, but they fully trusted Butler to do the job on him, which the video showed how often Butler was left to defend Lebron on his own... :confusedshrug:

We have a puncher's chance....I really think we are one scorer away.

[QUOTE=TheReturn]Shaking my heads at the posters who are trying to discredit Jimmy Butlers defense on LBJ by saying the Bulls' bigs are also focusing on him.. What the hell do you expect lmao, this is the best player in the world we're talking about, of course they use their entire team to defend him. :lol That doesn't take anything away from the amazing job Butler did on James in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

But when Lebron does it to Rose, its not considered great man defense on here.

Just trying to get consistency, and some posters refuse to give it. Reason why? They know they can harp on about Lebron's man defense never being good enough because it can't be statistically measured in a sure fire, 100% proof type of way.

Saying that, they love to throw out excuses as to why Lebron keeps shutting down player after player thats put in front of him.
Rose? Team defense.
Parker? He became injured as soon as Lebron was put on him. Ignore him tearing up the Heat prior to that in the game.
Melo? Bad shooting streak, coincidence.

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=poido123]I rarely saw the bigs actually trap or double team Lebron? Sure they were aware of Lebron at all times, but they fully trusted Butler to do the job on him, which the video showed how often Butler was left to defend Lebron on his own... :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Nah I agree, they let Jimmy play him 1 on 1 99% of the time, but I mean when he drove it they'd help and contest, which seems pretty logical. That's my point. :cheers:

[QUOTE=plowking]But when Lebron does it to Rose, its not considered great man defense on here.

Just trying to get consistency, and some posters refuse to give it. Reason why? They know they can harp on about Lebron's man defense never being good enough because it can't be statistically measured in a sure fire, 100% proof type of way.

Saying that, they love to throw out excuses as to why Lebron keeps shutting down player after player thats put in front of him.
Rose? Team defense.
Parker? He became injured as soon as Lebron was put on him. Ignore him tearing up the Heat prior to that in the game.
Melo? Bad shooting streak, coincidence.

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
I'm not the one you're arguing here, but to me - being a big Bulls fan - Lebron's ability to guard players like Rose and Parker in the clutch is nothing short of amazing.

[QUOTE=plowking]But when Lebron does it to Rose, its not considered great man defense on here.

Just trying to get consistency, and some posters refuse to give it. Reason why? They know they can harp on about Lebron's man defense never being good enough because it can't be statistically measured in a sure fire, 100% proof type of way.

Saying that, they love to throw out excuses as to why Lebron keeps shutting down player after player thats put in front of him.
Rose? Team defense.
Parker? He became injured as soon as Lebron was put on him. Ignore him tearing up the Heat prior to that in the game.
Melo? Bad shooting streak, coincidence.

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]


People with no bias on this matter have said Lebron is not a good man defender.

You crack me up because you see shit that nobody else is seeing :lol :oldlol:

Anyone here can go back a few pages and read the part where I provided "consistency" in my opinion. Or at least draw an objective POV on Lebron's defense, instead of just hating him.

[QUOTE=poido123][B]People with no bias on this matter have said Lebron is not a good man defender. [/B]

You crack me up because you see shit that nobody else is seeing :lol :oldlol:

Anyone here can go back a few pages and read the part where I provided "consistency" in my opinion. Or at least draw an objective POV on Lebron's defense, instead of just hating him.[/QUOTE]
Who are these people with no bias? Nick Young? Bladers? Kennethgriffin? You?

:roll:

[QUOTE=poido123]People with no bias on this matter have said Lebron is not a good man defender.

You crack me up because you see shit that nobody else is seeing :lol :oldlol:

Anyone here can go back a few pages and read the part where I provided "consistency" in my opinion. Or at least draw an objective POV on Lebron's defense, instead of just hating him.[/QUOTE]

People with no bias. You're on insidehoops...

Lebron is a great man to man defender, and probably the best in the league.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-TtcGaUXQY[/url]

Here is a video of game 5. Look at every shot Rose takes on Lebron. Where are the traps you talk about? At one point he has the whole left side cleared out for him, and hes too scared to drive on Bron, calls for a screen. Look at the time he scored on Lebron. No help given to Lebron by his team on the drive, yet he plays great defense, Rose happens to score. Great shot.

Lebron is getting less help here than Butler is. :oldlol: And you were acting like there were walls set up to stop Rose. :oldlol:

EDIT: Look at the play Rose draws a foul on and gets free throws. Had a clear out, couldn't get passed Lebron, and gets a generous call from the officials. Once again, great D by Lebron.

[QUOTE=TheReturn]I'm not the one you're arguing here, but to me - being a big Bulls fan - Lebron's ability to guard players like Rose and Parker in the clutch is nothing short of amazing.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely.

But what myself and Plowking are arguing here is the concept of what is man defense, how Butler played Lebron, and how Lebron played Rose in 2011.

I tryed to make a point about Butler's man defense on Lebron is a better representation than the myth Heat fans throw around alot about how Lebron shut rose down with man defense when it wasn't.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Who are these people with no bias? Nick Young? Bladers? Kennethgriffin? You?

:roll:[/QUOTE]
I think he means only himself:lol

In my opinion, it is a little different, yeah. When the Heat shut down Rose, it was a different in the sense that they forced the ball out of his hands by trapping him every chance they got. That's actually the opposite of what the Bulls were doing with Jimmy's D on Lebron.

That doesn't take anything away from eithers defensively capabilities, it's just a strategic difference and both of them make sense if you ask me. Rose's teammates at the time didn't get the job done offensively, so it made sense to have them beat you, rather than Rose. With Lebron's passing ability if you can sort of control him without doubling, that's probably your best option in beating Miami in my opinion.

I feel like I'm stating the obvious though, does anyone actually disagree here?

[QUOTE=poido123]Absolutely.

But what myself and Plowking are arguing here is the concept of what is man defense, how Butler played Lebron, and how Lebron played Rose in 2011.

I tryed to make a point about Butler's man defense on Lebron is a better representation than the myth Heat fans throw around alot about how Lebron shut rose down with man defense when it wasn't.[/QUOTE]

And the 4th quarter video of game 5 in 2011 proves you wrong already. :oldlol:

Less help, less rotations and more open courts for Rose, yet Lebron still managed to keep him quiet.

Myth debunked yet?

[QUOTE=Go Getter]We have a puncher's chance....I really think we are one scorer away.[/QUOTE]
We have are still a player away. Otherwise we'd have to hope we play lights on on both ends for seven games, and Miami is off their game. If we had a Jamal Crawford, or someone else who can create or score off the bounce, we could beat Miami.

There were plenty of times where Lebron was defending Rose man-to-man and forced him to take a jumpshot. E.g.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBcZbKvVknI[/url]

Go to 2:45

Another play I vividly remember was at the end of game 4 where Lebron forced Rose into taking a jump-shot which airballed.

[url]http://youtu.be/2PUMoAZ8TPs?t=14m4s[/url]

[QUOTE=Trollsmasher]I think he means only himself:lol[/QUOTE]

I would talk to you if you provided some discussion instead of just trolling all the time...

It's in the other thread, go have a look for yourself.

Chicago has a way better team.


Miami has LeBron.


I got Miami in 5 again for the ECF.