Are Dirk Nowitzki highlights 'impressive' to watch? How about Kevin Love?

[QUOTE=pudman13]It's not on film, but George Yardley claims his final basket of '58, the one that gave him 2000 points for the year, was a dunk. Russell came into the league a year earlier, and he dunked. Most of what I've read insists that people who could dunk before that chose not to because it was considered an insult and there would be physical retaliation. My dad grew up watching basketball, including those NBA barnstorming games, and he says he never saw it until Russell, though it might have been something that he wouldn't have taken notice of and remembered.

[B]You know what time period of the NBA (and ABA, for that matter) is way under-represented on video? The early 1970s.[/B] [B]There must be a bunch of games out there somewhere[/B], but hardly any of them ever get shown, even playoff games. I wish itunes would add more to their Hardwood Classics series. I'd watch anything from the early 80s or earlier if it was made available.[/QUOTE]
They don't exist most everything was either not recorded at all (more so in the 50's and 60's) or, even if they were recorded they were eventually all wiped and recorded over during that era so film could be recycled and re-used. The NBA didn't actively save broadcasts for posterity until sometime into the Bird and Magic era, that's why everything is so underrepresented from prior to that period of time. Those era's aren't deliberately being treated as less important and therefore not shown, film content and broadcasts from back then literally just doesn't exist anymore. That's why it was such a big deal when the final game of the 1973 NY Knicks vs Lakers Finals was discovered on someone's private 8mm film stash or w/e. The NBA certainly didn't have a copy, neither did any of the networks that broadcast the game.

What a tragedy. It's like all of those classic British TV shows from the 60s, lost forever.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW] In the dunk video, only 1 time does John Havlicek dunk (the color clip)[/QUOTE]

RE: Havlicek: I just learned an interesting piece of trivia about him. His very first NBA basket was a dunk. He was hoping to make his last one a dunk too but in his final game he never got the opportunity, even though as the game neared the end his teammates kept trying to get him fast breaks.

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]Kevin Love is the very definition of empty stats. So far he has had almost no positive impact on his teammates and therefore team performances. Minnesota should realize that they are in a great and unique situation that their real star/draw is Ricky Rubio, which allows them to trade their best player Love without the usual backlash. Love has acted poorly toward the Wolves before. If they are a 0.500 team at the all-star break I

Lmao as if Love is on the same level as Nowitzki

[QUOTE=LeGOAT]Lmao as if Love is on the same level as Nowitzki[/QUOTE]

Love is currently smashing it home on Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond like they're DII college players. ISH is completely full of baloney on Kevin Love.

Agree about levels with Nowitski but it is not due to talent levels it is purely due to intensity.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]Love is currently smashing it home on Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond like they're DII college players. ISH is completely full of baloney on Kevin Love.

Agree about levels with Nowitski but it is not due to talent levels it is purely due to intensity.[/QUOTE]
add Josh Smith to that. J Smooth can't even guard Love at all, none of these guys can dream of stopping the guy inside.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]add Josh Smith to that. J Smooth can't even guard Love at all, none of these guys can dream of stopping the guy inside.[/QUOTE]

Yet he camps out and chucks up threes.

This is a different discussion, but it's yet another reason I don't like the 3-pointer. I'd love to have a serious (i.e. not a bunch of name-calling ) discussion with people old enough to have watched a lot of NBA before the 3 was added, or at least in the early days of it when teams only shot it a couple times a game, about the various merits of the game with or without it. It's not as simple as "it spaces the game out." Ther are a lot of negatives that people don't understand unless they've seen a lot of games without it, ad now that everyone playing has grown up with it, it's not imaginable that anyone ever again will think about the game and its strategy the way they used to.

[QUOTE=pudman13]Yet he camps out and chucks up threes.

This is a different discussion, but it's yet another reason I don't like the 3-pointer. I'd love to have a serious (i.e. not a bunch of name-calling ) discussion with people old enough to have watched a lot of NBA before the 3 was added, or at least in the early days of it when teams only shot it a couple times a game, about the various merits of the game with or without it. It's not as simple as "it spaces the game out." Ther are a lot of negatives that people don't understand unless they've seen a lot of games without it, ad now that everyone playing has grown up with it, it's not imaginable that anyone ever again will think about the game and its strategy the way they used to.[/QUOTE]

Worthy of it's own thread bro.
Yeah the game changed a lot but it was really, to me, a long time before the change happened..... and it really just went in a big circle. I believe statistical studies played a big role.

But that said, a huge reason FG% looks low in the '60s and '70s stat sheets is those guys were bombing a lot of shots from down town too. Pre-three those shots were often last gasp before the 24 clock ran out.

Nobody strategied plays where a guy would take literally the worst possible shot in basketball... the 25 footer.... but with guys like Chamberlain, Thurmond and Russell in the league many many times that was the only shot there was. It was the last shot if a play broke down.
People who bash old films ('50s early '60s esp.) for the slow looking set shooters truly don't get it at all --- those guys were inventing the spot up shooter concept.
Looked at within context of the 3 line, there's very very little difference between Ray Allen or Mike Miller or Steph Curry standing in a spot.... and Bill Sharman or Wali Jones or Paul Arizin standing in a spot.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]Looked at within context of the 3 line, there's very very little difference between Ray Allen or Mike Miller or Steph Curry standing in a spot.... and Bill Sharman or Wali Jones or Paul Arizin standing in a spot.[/QUOTE]

Good point about it being a big circle. Every book I read about the 50s (or earlier) talks about how during the set-shootiung era people would pass the ball around and eventually someone would take a 30-footer.

[QUOTE=pudman13]Good point about it being a big circle. Every book I read about the 50s (or earlier) talks about how during the set-shootiung era people would pass the ball around and eventually someone would take a 30-footer.[/QUOTE]
Curry is a set shooter, so is Rubio, so are a lot of guys. Ray Allen is one of the greats not just at 3 ball either, but if you study his shot a lot of times he's jumping to add power as you can clearly see because he releases while he is [I]still on the way up[/I]
There've been other circle-backs in the NBA - Showtime Lakers & '80s Celtics were enormous throwback to '60s pace of basketball - the kind Riles played, the kind KC played. Piston thuggery was like the Nationals before they moved to Philly or like the early Bulls squads with Jerry Sloan & Van Lier & Bob Love.
Shaq Lakers ran the triangle........ same offense the great '60s Sixers used to such devastating effect & which Phil Jackson watched from the Knicks bench.... but which sat idle until another elite center of enormous strength and passing skills showed up

Actually the worst shot in basketball is the mid range jumper.

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]Actually the worst shot in basketball is the mid range jumper.[/QUOTE]
today that is true - goes right to the heart of the whole 3 ball discussion. Before the 3 line, the mid-range shot was always the ideal (if the 4 or 5 couldn't get the ball down low). That is the whole statistical thing I was talking about earlier

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]Actually the worst shot in basketball is the mid range jumper.[/QUOTE]
It looks that way right [I]now[/I] because:

A. the 3 point shot makes it more difficult for players to justify practicing/taking mid-range shots. Old school guys like Larry Bird tell players he never practiced the 3 point shot ever (which is true, he never did - only mid range shots) and they look at him cross eyed like he's crazy.

B. Because of A., hardly [I]anyone[/I] in the league today has developed a competent mid-range game. If your a 'shooter' today it means you camp out on the 3 point line, if your a slasher it means you finish at the rim. So that's all they practice and drill.

Anything can become the worst shot in basketball if it is never practiced, taught, or emphasized anymore. Today most players shoot in the mid-range only when denied the 3 point shot and get blocked from a drive so some ugly thing is a jacked up in desperation. 30+ years ago however, a 3 was more the 'desperation' shot and everyone's mid-range game was highly polished.

The midrange shot is the greatest lost art in the game. You'd think modern players would understand what a big part of Jordan's game it was, but sometimes it seems as if people only practice dunks and 25-footers.

What I wonder is if (and how) the game will change the next time a truly great big man shows up in the NBA...another Wilt, or Russell, or Kareem, or Moses Malone, or Shaq, for that matter.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]
But that said, a huge reason FG% looks low in the '60s and '70s stat sheets is those guys were bombing a lot of shots from down town too. Pre-three those shots were often last gasp before the 24 clock ran out.[/QUOTE]

What really strikes me about some of the stars of that time is how good they were at getting open and taking short jumpers. Havlicek, who of course is famous for outrunning everyone, must have scored half of his points on 12-footers. Watch any of his games and you'll see him get open on the baseline over and over again. Have defensive schemes changed so much that this would be impossible today, or has the art of moving without the ball disappeared (or, more likely, changed to getting open behind the 3-point line?)

No, the mid range shot is the worst shot in the league not because people don't practice but because the yield on the shot versus reward.

It is not a dying art. It is the worst shot in basketball statistically speaking. And team defense want teams shooting them. Not because they can't hit the shot, but because it is better for the defense to have the opponent shoot from that area.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]

Anything can become the worst shot in basketball if it is never practiced, taught, or emphasized anymore. Today most players shoot in the mid-range only when denied the 3 point shot and get blocked from a drive so some ugly thing is a jacked up in desperation.[/QUOTE]

The result is that odd stat where there are a bunch of players who have a higher 3-point FG% than 2-point FG%.

Back to the original point of this thread--you know who has probably the best midrange in the game? Dirk.

[QUOTE=pudman13]The midrange shot is the greatest lost art in the game. You'd think modern players would understand what a big part of Jordan's game it was, but sometimes it seems as if people only practice dunks and 25-footers.

[B]What I wonder is if (and how) the game will change the next time a truly great big man shows up in the NBA...another Wilt, or Russell, or Kareem, or Moses Malone, or Shaq, for that matter.[/B][/QUOTE]
I guarantee you ESPN will treat it as if the things that that big man does is 'revolutionary' and 'new' (and better) than the previous historic big men. They will rewrite history and say things like 'well all Shaq ever did was dunk / no competition' 'Kareem was just taller than everyone else' 'Hakeem had skill but couldn't _____ (some arbitrary thing this 'new' center does well that makes him unique) 'Wilt played in a weak era' etc. Guys like Robinson, Reed, etc won't even be mentioned in the future. If a new dominant center comes along he and whatever skillset or gifts he has that helps him be dominant will be presented as if it is the most special thing the world has ever seen and as if no big man of the past could or used to do it or if they did they 'didn't do it as well' - which will all be hogwash but hey they gotta sell the new Ford not the old Ford. But trust me, he'll be praised like a god and the past centers abilities will be forgotten or dismissed.

This happened with Shaq btw. The famous 'ARE U SERIOUS THAT'S A 7 FOOTER!' (as he runs up court on the break - as if that had never been done before). The hype machines will know no bounds if a new force like that enters the league.

[QUOTE=pudman13]What really strikes me about some of the stars of that time is how good they were at getting open and taking short jumpers. Havlicek, who of course is famous for outrunning everyone, must have scored half of his points on 12-footers. Watch any of his games and you'll see him get open on the baseline over and over again. Have defensive schemes changed so much that this would be impossible today, or has the art of moving without the ball disappeared (or, more likely, changed to getting open behind the 3-point line?)[/QUOTE]
Hondo is not a good choice to talk about because like others of his ilk - Bird, Dirk, yeah to the point of the thread, maybe Kevin Love (dunno yet, I don't remember too many [I]power [/I]forwards right now that could do everything offensively at that dude's level) Anthony, Bernard King, McAdoo - he was [B]completely unstoppable[/B]. We are talking about one of the true greats in Havlicek and lots of rules, theories, or whatever you want to call it.... just don't apply.

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]No, the mid range shot is the worst shot in the league not because people don't practice but because the yield on the shot versus reward.

It is not a dying art. It is the worst shot in basketball statistically speaking. And team defense want teams shooting them. Not because they can't hit the shot, but because it is better for the defense to have the opponent shoot from that area.[/QUOTE]
But that is exactly the point. 3 ball has changed basketball at its fundamental core.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW] But trust me, he'll be praised like a god and the past centers abilities will be forgotten or dismissed.[/QUOTE]

Remember that game two years ago when Bynum got 30 rebounds and everyone acted like he could become the greatest player ever? Moses Malone played like that every single night. Heck, smaller guys like Dave Cowens and Wes Unseld played like that too.

Another skill nobody is teaching these days: footwork. I wonder how Hakeem or McHale would look today.

[quote]But that is exactly the point. 3 ball has changed basketball at its fundamental core.[/quote]

You could say that about anything though. Whether it be zone defense, the lane, 3 sec rule, 10 sec rule, shot clock, etc etc.

And Dirk has scored most of his points from mid range. Probably has the most points from any player ever from 10-20 feet.... doesn't mean it is a wise shot.

[quote]Moses Malone played like that every single night.[/quote]

Of course half of those were his own missed layups padding his stats. He admitted as much that he would blow easy opportunities just to get credited for another rebound.......

[QUOTE=pudman13]Remember that game two years ago when Bynum got 30 rebounds and everyone acted like he could become the greatest player ever? Moses Malone played like that every single night. Heck, smaller guys like Dave Cowens and Wes Unseld played like that too.

Another skill nobody is teaching these days: footwork. I wonder how Hakeem or McHale would look today.[/QUOTE]

gotta disagree now. Nikola Pekovic footwork is just flat astonishing, not just for a guy that size but [I]anybody[/I]. Tim Duncan entire career has been nothing short of majestic in that exact area. Watch Chris Kaman or Lopez or Al Jefferson a little closer. LaMarcus Aldridge has times where he's nothing short of transcendent. Chris Bosh needs more credit. No, footwork is blistering great in today's NBA.

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]No, the mid range shot is the worst shot in the league not because people don't practice but because the yield on the shot versus reward.

It is not a dying art. It is the worst shot in basketball statistically speaking. And team defense want teams shooting them. Not because they can't hit the shot, but because it is better for the defense to have the opponent shoot from that area.[/QUOTE]
You put the 1986 Celtics (A primarily mid-range shooting team) into this modern league where as you put it teams would 'want' them shooting those shots, then they would literally steamroll everyone off those 'worst-shot-in-the-league' mid-range J's. Same goes with the 67 Sixers, or 85 Lakers etc etc. Mid-range shots are statistically skewed in this era by a lack of development of mid-range touch in this generation of players. Yes, it makes less sense to take a mid-range shot today because of the 3 point shot as I already acknowledged but no, it wouldn't be the worst shot in basketball if it were developed and shot as accurately as it used to be.

There is a noticeable difference in the accuracy and fine tuning of players mid-range shooting abilities from say, the late 1980's to prior compared to players today. Back then, players had 'spots' (that they practiced religiously and wanted to get to during a game) that were in the mid range that if allowed to get to the J was automatic. Today, the mid-range is treated as no man's land. Defenses will (as you said) leave someone wide open in mid-range and they'll brick it. Not many players have a touch in the mid-range today, if they did, it wouldn't be the 'worst shot in basketball'

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]You could say that about anything though. Whether it be zone defense, the lane, 3 sec rule, 10 sec rule, shot clock, etc etc.

And Dirk has scored most of his points from mid range. Probably has the most points from any player ever from 10-20 feet.... doesn't mean it is a wise shot.[/QUOTE]
all those other rules are from the '50s though. I don't know a league that didn't have all of those, except the zone is legal now... so I can't compare. No frame of reference on those.
Dirk is Dirk. Like I was saying about Hondo on the other - if it's Dirk, it's wise.

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]You could say that about anything though. Whether it be zone defense, the lane, 3 sec rule, 10 sec rule, shot clock, etc etc.

[B]And Dirk has scored most of his points from mid range.[/B] Probably has the most points from any player ever from 10-20 feet.... [B]doesn't mean it is a wise shot.[/B][/QUOTE]
Got a title against the 'big 3', has had an incredible HOF-caliber career and is going to be a lock as a 75th anniversary player from taking those 'unwise' shots. Thus, perhaps they aren't so unwise?

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]No, footwork is blistering great in today's NBA.[/QUOTE]

I'll defer to you on this one...now that I've ditched cable I don't watch as much NBA as I did a few years back. It does seem odd to me though that we have so few centers among the league scoring leaders.

[quote]You put the 1986 Celtics (A primarily mid-range shooting team) into this modern league where as you put it teams would 'want' them shooting those shots, then they would literally steamroll everyone off those 'worst-shot-in-the-league' mid-range J's. Same goes with the 67 Sixers, or 85 Lakers etc etc. Mid-range shots are statistically skewed in this era by a lack of development of mid-range touch in this generation of players. Yes, it makes less sense to take a mid-range shot today because of the 3 point shot as I already acknowledged but no, it wouldn't be the worst shot in basketball if it were developed and shot as accurately as it used to be.[/quote]

They would steamroll because of the talent disparity, not because of the mid range game. Take DJ/McHale (or Parrish) off the team.... and the 86 Celtics would not steamroll.

And yes it would still be the worst shot in basketball. As long as the layup is still allowed and the 3 point shot exists, the midrange will be the worst shot in basketball.

[quote]all those other rules are from the '50s though. I don't know a league that didn't have all of those, except the zone is legal now, so I can't compare. No frame of reference on those.
Dirk is Dirk. Like I was saying about Hondo on the other - if it's Dirk, it's wise.[/quote]

Just throwing out some. Others include handchecking, 5 second rule, interpretation of traveling/paming etc.....

[QUOTE=pudman13]I'll defer to you on this one...now that I've ditched cable I don't watch as much NBA as I did a few years back. It does seem odd to me though that we have so few centers among the league scoring leaders.[/QUOTE]
Chuckin' up 3s, man

[quote]Got a title against the 'big 3', has had an incredible HOF-caliber career and is going to be a lock as a 75th anniversary player from taking those 'unwise' shots. Thus, perhaps they aren't so unwise?[/quote]

Can't make a generalization based on one player. Dirk has made a living on the worst shot in basketball. But he is one of the exceptions to the rule regarding the shot. The skyhook was a remarkable shot for one player in history. Not a good shot either for most players.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]You put the 1986 Celtics (A primarily mid-range shooting team) into this modern league where as you put it teams would 'want' them shooting those shots, then they would literally steamroll everyone off those 'worst-shot-in-the-league' mid-range J's. Same goes with the 67 Sixers, or 85 Lakers etc etc. Mid-range shots are statistically skewed in this era by a lack of development of mid-range touch in this generation of players. [/QUOTE]
Give me a break.

Put Ray Allen in a wide open gym, no defenders. This is what his percentages will probably look like.

4 ft (restricted arc): 99%
15 ft (free throw line): 90%
20 ft: 65%
25 ft: 50%
30 ft: 40%
Etc.

So yes, a mid range jump shot is less efficient than a shot a few feet further that nets you an extra point.

Don't be silly.

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]They would steamroll because of the talent disparity, not because of the mid range game. Take DJ/McHale (or Parrish) off the team.... and the 86 Celtics would not steamroll.

And yes it would still be the worst shot in basketball. As long as the layup is still allowed and the 3 point shot exists, the midrange will be the worst shot in basketball.



Just throwing out some. Others include handchecking, 5 second rule, interpretation of traveling/paming etc.....[/QUOTE]
I would suggest that even handchecking being taken away from the game, with all that has meant as far as horrific wide-open, slashing & driving... has not had nearly as much impact as the 3.

Palming went away around the time of Magic Johnson and well and truly dead & gone forever I hope. It's far better for the game to get have that flexibility on the dribble instead of that drab, hand-on-top-or-whistle that we used to see in the '60s and '70s. It was positively a hindrance & people today think those guys were 'unathletic' because it looks so strange to a modern (i.e., young) eye.
There again though.... a relatively minor detail compared bringing in the old ABA's 3 point line.
Strange that it took so long for the league to really exploit it though. Kiki Vandeweghe understood it clear back in the beginning of the rule and just tore everybody up, to this day the Kiki step is one of the deadliest moves around!!