So, who here doesn't believe in evolution?

[QUOTE=MadeFromDust]The only thing evolutionists are good at is drawing stick pics and making up stories[/QUOTE]

good point

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]so if "God" influenced the results that would also be "evolution" and not "intelligent design" correct?[/QUOTE]Intelligent design (at least in some forms) isn't meant to be an alternative to evolution. It's meant to be an alternative mechanism to natural selection, as the primary driver of evolution.

Species being created in their current forms by God, rather than evolving, would be the alternative to evolution.

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]so if "God" influenced the results that would also be "evolution" and not "intelligent design" correct?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

Intelligent design describes a model where certain cellular structures are irreducibly complex. Meaning there was no evolutionary pathway for them to arise, they had to have just appeared. If God is selecting based off of what is already there it is no different to what humans or nature are doing. If God is creating genes and inserting them himself then that would be intelligent design.

I think one thing that some people don't grasp when it comes to things like evolution is the time frame involved, I've never met someone who denied evolution but on TV when I've seen people struggle with it they don't understand how something can just suddenly change when in reality it happens over a very large time period that is hard for humans to comprehend. Same thing with how it's hard for us to comprehend just how small the time period is that humans have been around for, if our species was wiped out tomorrow we're really just a small footnote in the history of species.

Biological evolution is the change in alleles over time. Artifical and natural selection share the same mechanism, the only difference is the source of selection.

[QUOTE=CelticBaller]I think lowly of people who don't believe that evolution is real. I am sorry but it really irks me.[/QUOTE]

You shouldn't though. Very few people who agree that evolution is a fact know much about (if anything) the mechanics behind evolution and the evidence for it. Most people have no clue that so many of our medical advances are a direct result of our understand of evolution for instance. They simply accept the theory because they acknowledge the expertise behind the theory, not because they understand what is going on.

If that part of a persons rationale is corrupted from the day they were born it's very hard to break out of it. And especially inherently smart people can go literally insane trying to break out of it, like that Michael Behe guy.

[QUOTE=outbreak]I think one thing that some people don't grasp when it comes to things like evolution is the time frame involved, I've never met someone who denied evolution but on TV when I've seen people struggle with it they don't understand how something can just suddenly change when in reality it happens over a very large time period that is hard for humans to comprehend. Same thing with how it's hard for us to comprehend just how small the time period is that humans have been around for, if our species was wiped out tomorrow we're really just a small footnote in the history of species.[/QUOTE]
You do not need geological time scales to observe evolution. Just look at the artifical selection of dogs, evolution of fruit flies, evolution of microorganisms, etc. that have all been observed by humans.

[QUOTE=shlver]You do not need geological time scales to observe evolution. Just look at the artifical selection of dogs, evolution of fruit flies, evolution of microorganisms, etc. that have all been observed by humans.[/QUOTE]

selective breeding isn't really the same concept even if the end result is the same though. Like I'm talking about people saying they don't believe a giraffe somehow grew a longer neck to reach food and therefore it must have been designed by someone that way when in reality it's just a case of that species favouring long neck giraffes over a long time period.

[QUOTE=shlver]You do not need geological time scales to observe evolution. Just look at the artifical selection of dogs, evolution of fruit flies, evolution of microorganisms, etc. that have all been observed by humans.[/QUOTE]

It depends on the persons expectation. A lot of people just don't seem to grasp what evolution is and want demonstrations of extreme evolution in a short amount of time. Those people will probably never be convinced. I'm sure you've seen the Wendy Wright Richard Dawkins interview, if not prepare to punch your computer screen within the first 5 minutes.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AekFGksvuDU[/url]

i believe in both evolution & creation, i think the 2 can work together :rockon:

[QUOTE=magic chiongson]i believe in both evolution & creation, i think the 2 can work together :rockon:[/QUOTE]
I respect that a lot and it's something more Christians need to do.

[QUOTE=miller-time]Yes.

Intelligent design describes a model where certain cellular structures are irreducibly complex. Meaning there was no evolutionary pathway for them to arise, they had to have just appeared. If God is selecting based off of what is already there it is no different to what humans or nature are doing. If God is creating genes and inserting them himself then that would be intelligent design.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough

Although I'm sure most have natural selection in mind when using the word...

[QUOTE=magic chiongson]i believe in both evolution & creation, i think the 2 can work together :rockon:[/QUOTE]
+1

[QUOTE=D-Rose]I respect that a lot and it's something more Christians [B]need[/B] to do.[/QUOTE]

:eek:

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]Fair enough

Although I'm sure most have natural selection in mind when using the word...[/QUOTE]

At the end of the day all that evolution is describing is why we have different types of species. It doesn't really matter how those different species arose but why? And the answer is different genes were either allowed or disallowed to propagate over successive generations. Whether selection (allowance or disallowance) came from nature, God, man, or even aliens is irrelevant. All that matters is explaining the underlying mechanism that gives us different species of animals, plants, bacteria etc. Those are the broad strokes at least.

Why do you "evolution heads" always argue over beliefs? Your motive isn't actually understanding someone elses opinion but to try and assert your supposed superiority upon others.

[QUOTE=magic chiongson]i believe in both evolution & creation, i think the 2 can work together :rockon:[/QUOTE]
Same boat...kinda...

[QUOTE=Dictator]Why do you "evolution heads" always argue over beliefs? Your motive isn't actually understanding someone elses opinion but to try and assert your supposed superiority upon others.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't matter what people believe, but if you are going to debate over the merits of a scientific theory then you need to have a correct understanding of said theory.

If I am going to argue theology and my understanding of say Christianity is completely wrong do you think a Christian would say "OK that is your belief," or would they correct me on where I am going wrong? If I thought that Mark betrayed Judas or Noah built a great fish to save all of the animals should a Christian correct me or just let me believe in something that the bible doesn't describe?

[QUOTE=miller-time]It doesn't matter what people believe, but if you are going to debate over the merits of a scientific theory then you need to have a correct understanding of said theory.

If I am going to argue theology and my understanding of say Christianity is completely wrong do you think a Christian would say "OK that is your belief," or would they correct me on where I am going wrong? If I thought that Mark betrayed Judas or Noah built a great fish to save all of the animals should a Christian correct me or just let me believe in something that the bible doesn't describe?[/QUOTE]

That logic doesnt fit my dude. Of course an evolutionist can correct an evolutionist and christians can correct christians on christianity. What's the point of an evolutionist trying to change the beliefs of a creationist? Two different topics, let people have their beliefs without trying to make them feel inferior.

[QUOTE=Dictator]That logic doesnt fit my dude. Of course an evolutionist can correct an evolutionist and christians can correct christians on christianity. What's the point of an evolutionist trying to change the beliefs of a creationist? Two different topics, let people have their beliefs without trying to make them feel inferior.[/QUOTE]

It isn't about changing belief it is about changing understanding. I don't believe in Christianity but I think I have a reasonable understanding of it. If I didn't understand a particular aspect of it I would hope that a Christian or someone with more knowledge than I have on the subject would correct me.

That is the whole point of this conversation. Very few if any of us are going to change our positions, we already know that. Some of us have been going back and forth for years on this site. What we gain is possible access to new ideas and modifications to old ones. Our opinions don't change, just out understanding of other peoples opinions.

I do not "believe" in evolution, just as I do not believe that the Earth is a sphere. I accept both as facts because they are supported by overwhelming evidence.

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]
Selective breeding and natural selection (evolution) are two very different things...the only thing similar about the two is that genes have changed from one state to another.[/QUOTE]
Natural selection is not evolution. Natural selection is the mechanism. Evolution simply means change. You really should educate yourself before getting involved in discussions like this. You don't even know what the word evolution means.

[QUOTE=miller-time]
If I am going to argue theology and my understanding of say Christianity is completely wrong do you think a Christian would say "OK that is your belief,"[/QUOTE]

I'm a Christian and that is exactly what I would say :confusedshrug:

The Bible is open to interpretation, as are scientific findings. Everyone sees them differently, making no "right" or "wrong" opinions.

edit: changed "scientific theories" to "scientific findings". Makes more sense

If this topic is moving more into religion, my girlfriend was trying to tell me the other day that the majority of christians and catholics no longer believe in heaven and hell and don't take it literally. I was raised half heartedly catholic but was never really into it and my family didn't really do anything besides baptisms and what not but I thought even if most people don't believe in all of the bible that heaven and hell and that your soul goes somewhere would still be a pretty important part of calling yourself a christian or a catholic wouldn't it? Anyone know more about this?

[QUOTE=outbreak]If this topic is moving more into religion, my girlfriend was trying to tell me the other day that the majority of christians and catholics no longer believe in heaven and hell and don't take it literally. I was raised half heartedly catholic but was never really into it and my family didn't really do anything besides baptisms and what not but I thought even if most people don't believe in all of the bible that heaven and hell and that your soul goes somewhere would still be a pretty important part of calling yourself a christian or a catholic wouldn't it? Anyone know more about this?[/QUOTE]Catholic [I]or[/I] Christian? :biggums: Catholics are Christian, as are Orthodox Christians, and the numerous protestant denominations.

Anyway, your girlfriend is wrong. [url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57347634/[/url]

[QUOTE=Inactive]

Anyway, your girlfriend is wrong. [url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57347634/[/url][/QUOTE]

[quote]The AP-GfK Poll was conducted Dec. 8-12 and is based on interviews with 1,000 adults nationally.[/quote]

Very strong, conclusive poll.

[QUOTE=Inactive]Catholic [I]or[/I] Christian? :biggums: Catholics are Christian, as are Orthodox Christians, and the numerous protestant denominations.

Anyway, your girlfriend is wrong. [url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57347634/[/url][/QUOTE]

good to know, I was always confused myself as to the differences and I'd had people tell me they aren't Christian their catholic. I never paid much attention to it growing up, over here I haven't ever met someone who is seriously religious like you seem to get in some parts of America.

[QUOTE=outbreak]good to know, I was always confused myself as to the differences and I'd had people tell me they aren't Christian their catholic. I never paid much attention to it growing up, over here I haven't ever met someone who is seriously religious like you seem to get in some parts of America.[/QUOTE]

Dude, catholic and christian is pretty different.

Christian is strictly old and new testament.

Catholic ties in with the pope, and vatican city.

A catholic is still a christian, while a christian may not be a catholic, for example, he may be a protestant.

Pretty different in a sense, but I can't see how it can be confusing tbh

Edit: Just like a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square. Makes sense right?

[QUOTE=Dictator]Dude, catholic and christian is pretty different.

Christian is strictly old and new testament.

Catholic ties in with the pope, and vatican city.[/QUOTE]

i thought they were different too, I never remembered what my family was though as they weren't practising or anything, we were italian though and had the pope

[QUOTE=kNicKz]Very strong, conclusive poll.[/QUOTE]I assume you're being sarcastic, but you didn't really provide any reason why it isn't. If their sample reflects the diversity of the nation, then they don't need a great number of participants. It's also consistent with other polls.

I've looked at it myself, and it does seem that their sample was skewed a bit towards rural participants. 65% of their participants were from urban areas, 34% rural. Around 80% of the overall population is urban. For the most part their sample seems to reflect national averages though.

[QUOTE=outbreak]over here I haven't ever met someone who is seriously religious like you seem to get in some parts of America.[/QUOTE] What country are you from?

[QUOTE=Inactive]
What country are you from?[/QUOTE]

Australia, I'm sure we do have people who take it seriously, I've just never met any myself. A friend told me awhile back about how his mate went out with a girl who had bible groups and all that, she wouldn't do it before marriage but was happy doing everything else which seemed a bit odd to us. I mean we have a bunch of churches all over the place and people go there but I don't seem to know any hardcore people who go every sunday and follow everything properly. The only time I go to a church now is for weddings and funerals.

[QUOTE=outbreak]Australia, I'm sure we do have people who take it seriously, I've just never met any myself. A friend told me awhile back about how his mate went out with a girl who had bible groups and all that, she wouldn't do it before marriage but was happy doing everything else which seemed a bit odd to us. I mean we have a bunch of churches all over the place and people go there but I don't seem to know any hardcore people who go every sunday and follow everything properly. The only time I go to a church now is for weddings and funerals.[/QUOTE]Yeah, you guys aren't very religious compared to the states. Still, 71% of Australian Christians believe in life after death, 57% believe in hell, 59% believe in the devil. It seems 13-17% of self reported Christians in your country don't really believe in anything supernatural.

[QUOTE=kNicKz]I'm a Christian and that is exactly what I would say :confusedshrug:

The Bible is open to interpretation, as are scientific findings. Everyone sees them differently, making no "right" or "wrong" opinions.

edit: changed "scientific theories" to "scientific findings". Makes more sense[/QUOTE]

And if I said "Christianity says it is acceptable to murder people in their sleep" you would just let me continue believing that? My interpretation is acceptable because you are cool with any wild interpretation? Maybe. But what if I said "Christianity says it is acceptable to murder people in their sleep therefore we should ban it" are you still not going to defend your belief, or because any misinterpretation is cool any response to that misinterpretation is cool too? What if I said "Christianity says it is acceptable to murder people in their sleep therefore I am going to start murdering Christians in their sleep" is that response also still cool or would you correct me then? At what point do you say "hold on, I think you might have it wrong, that isn't what Christianity is about"?

Evolution is not something you choose to believe or disbelieve. What, are we back in the 19th century or something?

[QUOTE=red1]Evolution is not something you choose to believe or disbelieve. What, are we back in the 19th century or something?[/QUOTE]

Well you do choose to believe it. But you believe it based on evidence not faith. Belief is anything you accept as true (or as close to true as you can get). But how you arrive at your conclusion is entirely up to you. But from my observation faith is a pretty poor way to figure out what is true and what isn't hence all of the different religions and there lack of internal self regulation. If faith were a good method then it would seem at some point different people should converge on some truth, but instead the more people that believe on faith the more fractured their respective beliefs become.

[QUOTE=miller-time]Well you do choose to believe it. But you believe it based on evidence not faith. Belief is anything you accept as true (or as close to true as you can get). But how you arrive at your conclusion is entirely up to you. But from my observation faith is a pretty poor way to figure out what is true and what isn't (hence all of the different religions and there lack of internal self regulation).[/QUOTE]
One chooses not to believe in evolution the same way one would choose not to believe in gravity. In other words it's identical to choosing to be an imbecile. Does that make sense?

[QUOTE=red1]One chooses not to believe in evolution the same way one would choose not to believe in gravity. In other words it's identical to choosing to be an imbecile. Does that make sense?[/QUOTE]

Well the effects of gravity are easily observable, evolution is a little bit more abstract and less self evident. It is easier to turn a blind eye and remain willfully ignorant and allow faith based reasoning to supersede the evidence for it.

[QUOTE=Dictator]Dude, catholic and christian is pretty different.

Christian is strictly old and new testament.

Catholic ties in with the pope, and vatican city.[/QUOTE]
Any denomination that believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings is by definition Christian. Everything else is just glorified semantics. Just like anyone that believes in the Islamic creed is a Muslim, doesn't matter if they call themselves Sunni or Shia.

[QUOTE=FiveRings]Natural selection is not evolution. Natural selection is the mechanism. Evolution simply means change.[/QUOTE]
This is a key point in this discussion. People don't understand what they're calling a 'lie'.

[QUOTE=red1]One chooses not to believe in evolution the same way one would choose not to believe in gravity. In other words it's identical to choosing to be an imbecile. Does that make sense?[/QUOTE]
nah...if you don't believe in evolution then you are just uneducated...if you don't believe in gravity then you're clinically insane