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[QUOTE=DMAVS41]That is giving the Mavs 0 credit. Name the tougher year the Spurs faced please.[/QUOTE]
That has nothing to do with what I said.
I have said in the past Kidd had one of the best, if not the best, defensive stands ever by a wing player many times, tho.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]To suggest Dirk as the premier scorer in the league like Durant has been, is pure nonsense and you know it. Dirk has always been an excellent scorer but in no way has he been in a tier above all or equal to the best. Name the year you think he has the case. Its that simple.[/QUOTE]
What did I suggest? I merely said Dirk is an elite scorer...on par with just about anyone as a scorer in playoff history other than MJ.
You seem to care a lot about regular seasons. I just...well, don't. Not for all time top 25 or so players of all time. I don't care about the regular season. I want to know what these guys can do against teams that are trying as hard and are the better teams in the league. I guess you value games against the Bobcats highly...I just don't.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]That has nothing to do with what I said.
I have said in the past Kidd had one of the best, if not the best, defensive stands ever by a wing player many times, tho.[/QUOTE]
But it does. You are implying that players just "played bad"...and it didn't have anything to do with the Mavs. Which is just false of course.
But again...that wasn't even really my point you responded to. I said the Mavs faced tougher competition than any Spurs title. So again...what year did the Spurs face tougher competition while winning the title?
Or do you just agree with me?
IMO Dirk, especially when he got the back-to-the-basket game going. One of the rare truly unguardable scorers in his day.
I like KD though, perhaps I'm undervaluing him here.
And I'm sick of hearing about how the Lakers were clearly done..etc. The Boston Celtics in 08 didn't look good in round 1 at all...needing 7 to beat the Hawks...went on to win the title
Against the Lakers....Dirk averaged 25/10/3 on 57/73/94 shooting splits. And outside of game 4...it was a 50/50 series. As was the case in 11...the Mavs (mainly Dirk) just happened to come up super clutch in close games.
I swear it's like people just ignore the following;
Lakers were up 7 going to the 4th qtr of game 1
Lakers were down 6 going into the 4th qtr of game 2
Lakers were up 6 going into the 4th qtr of game 3
Then the Lakers quit in game 4. It was a sweep, but those 3 games could have gone either way. With the Lakers having the advantage in 2 of the 3 heading to the last period.
It's stuff like that...that is just glossed over. We have to pretend the Lakers just sucked...etc.
Dirk doesn't dominate the ball as much as Durant and he is a true system-player. You do not have shape your offense around him that strictly. You can tell this even from their turnover per game numbers.
Nowitzki's impact on the court is beyond his numbers. And I think Durant can impact the game like he's doing now with lesser numbers. (Altough I do not suggest he's stat-padding.)
I prefer Nowitzki.
Give me prime Dirk, dude can pull up from anywhere on the court, has an amazing fadeaway, leads his team, (durant couldn't against the grizzlies), prime Dirk is just as clutch as Durant, Dirk gets real underrated here, hes one of the best PFs of all time.
[QUOTE=Black and White]Give me prime Dirk, dude can pull up from anywhere on the court, has an amazing fadeaway, leads his team, (durant couldn't against the grizzlies), prime Dirk is just as clutch as Durant, Dirk gets real underrated here, hes [B]one of the best PFs of all time.[[/B]/QUOTE]
Top 8
[QUOTE=Black and White]Give me prime Dirk, dude can pull up from anywhere on the court, has an amazing fadeaway, leads his team, (durant couldn't against the grizzlies), prime Dirk is just as clutch as Durant, Dirk gets real underrated here, hes one of the best PFs of all time.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, Durant did lead his team to the Finals as a 23 year old in his 5th season and Dirk in his prime had his fair share of first & second round exits. Both have clearly had ups and downs one can point to.
This one is close. Great post OP.
I'm gonna go off the basketball court to make this decision since I think on court it is a wash who I would rather take as my franchise player.
Off court both seem like the kind of players a city can root for. The kind you don't want traded, ever. No drugs, no legal trouble, both seem about as well adjusted as super stars can be.
But KD came in with expectations. Dirk came in as a big question mark. It has been so satisfying watching him grow into an NBA legend. Whereas with Durant you could see in college (even High School) that he was going to end up as something special.
So with that in mind I take Dirk. There is something special about watching a guy become a superstar and take his team to the highest level.
Also, the "Pokes" part of my user name = OSU Cowboys. /horns down
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen][QUOTE=Black and White]Give me prime Dirk, dude can pull up from anywhere on the court, has an amazing fadeaway, leads his team, (durant couldn't against the grizzlies), prime Dirk is just as clutch as Durant, Dirk gets real underrated here, hes [B]one of the best PFs of all time.[[/B]/QUOTE]
Top 8[/QUOTE]
You just made his point. Wow, top 8? Definitely underrated
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen][QUOTE=Black and White]Give me prime Dirk, dude can pull up from anywhere on the court, has an amazing fadeaway, leads his team, (durant couldn't against the grizzlies), prime Dirk is just as clutch as Durant, Dirk gets real underrated here, hes [B]one of the best PFs of all time.[[/B]/QUOTE]
Top 8[/QUOTE]
Youre an idiot Dirk is easily top 5
KG, Timmy, Chuck, Dirk and Karl are the 5 no other PF can be argued on same level as them
[QUOTE=DirkNowitzki41][QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]
You just made his point. Wow, top 8? Definitely underrated[/QUOTE]
He meant clearly top 8.
[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG][QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]
Youre an idiot Dirk is easily top 5
KG, Timmy, Chuck, Dirk and Karl are the 5 no other PF can be argued on same level as them[/QUOTE]
:applause:
[QUOTE=DirkNowitzki41][QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]
You just made his point. Wow, top 8? Definitely underrated[/QUOTE]
Duncan, Barkley, Malone, KG, Mchale, Hayes, Pettit, Dirk
[QUOTE=Pointguard]I let raw PPG averages tell me who's elite or not in scoring[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG][QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]
Youre an idiot Dirk is easily top 5
KG, Timmy, Chuck, Dirk and Karl are the 5 no other PF can be argued on same level as them[/QUOTE]
Hayes, Pettit, and McHale get compared all the time too, not that I particularly agree.
Gotta take KD due to being able to do more things well than Dirk. Takeover scoring ability is even in my book. Actually their scoring skillset is similar in many ways. Both redefined their positions as well. So in a sense u can't go wrong either way. But the way KD's game is evolving, give me KD. KD is showing signs that he might actually combine so Larry Bird type elements to his George Gervin and TMac scoring skillset. Scary, scary stuff!
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7][QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]
Hayes, Pettit, and McHale get compared all the time too, not that I particularly agree.[/QUOTE]
Lets be real none of us nikkas watched Pettit:facepalm :facepalm
Hayes was chucker and Mchale was a 2nd option and black hole whos career was made by Larry and the Cs wings spreading floor for him to iso
Prime Dirk. Guy did it all himself.
I might take Peak Dirk, which was the playoffs of 2011.
If you consider that as a peak.
I don't consider it as a peak though, because it was too short of a stretch and was more of a hot streak than a peak to me. That year in the regular season, he was good but not great. And then just four months later, when the next season began he was not great at all.
A peak is a stretch of two years to me. So I'll take Durant in the stretch going back from today to two years ago.
[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG][QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]
Lets be real none of us nikkas watched Pettit:facepalm :facepalm
Hayes was chucker and Mchale was a 2nd option and black hole whos career was made by Larry and the Cs wings spreading floor for him to iso[/QUOTE]
Duncan Barkley & Malone were unquestionably better IMO. KG> Dirk as well.
Mchale is tough, but id probably leave toward Mchale.
So Duncan, Barkley, Malone, KG, Mchale, Dirk or Hayes.
6th best power forward ain't bad
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen][QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]
Duncan Barkley & Malone were unquestionably better IMO. KG> Dirk as well.
Mchale is tough, but id probably leave toward Mchale.
So Duncan, Barkley, Malone, KG, Mchale, Dirk or Hayes.
6th best power forward ain't bad[/QUOTE]
McHale has no argument over Dirk all time...
And Barkley, KG, Malone, Pettit...are all debatable
Dirk is somewhere between the 2nd and 6th best pf ever
[QUOTE=Draz]Prime Dirk. Guy did it all himself.[/QUOTE]
No he didn't.
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen][QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]
Duncan Barkley & Malone were unquestionably better IMO. KG> Dirk as well.
Mchale is tough, but id probably leave toward Mchale.
So Duncan, Barkley, Malone, KG, Mchale, Dirk or Hayes.
6th best power forward ain't bad[/QUOTE]
How is Malone unquestionably better? Dirk shows up in the playoffs Malone doesnt and he was in system with Stockton and Utah that gaves him alot easy points.
Chuck was one of worst defenders ever even Dirk looks good in comparison but its close
Mchale is barely better than Pau Gasol GTFO here if u think he better than mofukking dirk nowitzki:roll: :roll: :roll:
[QUOTE=DMAVS41][QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]
McHale has no argument over Dirk all time...
And Barkley, KG, Malone, Pettit...are all debatable
Dirk is somewhere between the 2nd and 6th best pf ever[/QUOTE]
If Mchale has no argument over Dirk
Then Dirk has no argument over Malone & Barkely who were both clearly better.
KG in his prime was easily better than Dirk in his prime. Garnett was an all around player dominant on both sides of the ball, DPOY, MVP, all defensive teams out the ass. KG was an elite defender, elite playmaker at his position and just overall a better player than Dirk.
Nobody who lived through Malone Duncan & Barkley would ever put Dirk as the 2nd best power forward ever. That spot belongs to Barkley and or Malone
Dirk at best, is 4th all time, and that's if you put him over KG, which if you value defense, rebounding and playmaking..you wouldn't
[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]
How is Malone unquestionably better? Dirk shows up in the playoffs Malone doesnt and he was in system with Stockton and Utah that gaves him alot easy points.
Chuck was one of worst defenders ever even Dirk looks good in comparison but its close
[B]Mchale is barely better than Pau Gasol [/B]GTFO here if u think he better than mofukking dirk nowitzki:roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen][QUOTE=DMAVS41]
If Mchale has no argument over Dirk
Then Dirk has no argument over Malone & Barkely who were both [B]clearly better. [/B]KG in his prime was easily better than Dirk in his prime. Garnett was an all around player dominant on both sides of the ball, DPOY, MVP, all defensive teams out the ass. KG was an elite defender, elite playmaker at his position and just overall a better player than Dirk.
Nobody who lived through Malone Duncan & Barkley would ever put Dirk as the 2nd best power forward ever. That spot belongs to Barkley and or Malone
Dirk at best, is 4th all time, and that's if you put him over KG, which if you value defense, rebounding and playmaking..you wouldn't[/QUOTE]
Disagree, they are not clearly better, it's interchangable. Dirk in his prime is just as good, those guys are all in the 2nd to 5th best PF tier. But to say they are clearly better is just absurd.
[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG][QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]
How is Malone unquestionably better? Dirk shows up in the playoffs Malone doesnt and he was in system with Stockton and Utah that gaves him alot easy points.
Chuck was one of worst defenders ever even Dirk looks good in comparison but its close
[B]Mchale is barely better than Pau Gasol [/B]GTFO here if u think he better than mofukking dirk nowitzki:roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]
:biggums: You clearly don't know much about Mchale, he had one of the best post games ever
[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]
Mchale is barely better than Pau Gasol GTFO here if u think he better than mofukking dirk nowitzki:roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Michael-Scott-Closes-The-Door-Awkwardly-On-The-Office.gif[/IMG]
Sorry for ****ing up the thread now our quotes are all ****ed up that's my ****ing bad.
[QUOTE=NLZ]Durant... better stats while playing better defense.
Durant is the 2nd best player after LeBron.
Dirk was what, top 6-7? Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Duncan etc etc were always better.[/QUOTE]
Weak Era is weak era.
[QUOTE=Black and White][QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]
:biggums: You clearly don't know much about Mchale, he had one of the best post games ever[/QUOTE]
Lol. Kevin Mchale was a solid player, but he's can't take on Prime Pau.
[QUOTE=$LakerGold][QUOTE=Black and White]
Lol. Kevin Mchale was a solid player, but he's can't take on Prime Pau.[/QUOTE]
What??? No way, Mchale was way better than Pau, and i really like Pau Gasol but there is no way im putting him over mchale
This is a tough one, as they are both elite scorers. I like KD's rebounding and D, though.
Give me Durant. They both can score a ton, but KD has the scoring titles and is extremely efficient. Not to mention KD rebounds and plays defense better.
[QUOTE=$LakerGold]
Lol. Kevin Mchale was a solid player, but he's can't take on Prime Pau.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that because you're a Laker fan? I assume you are because of your ava name.
Dat ain't cool man. Mchale was awesome. You should rather have prime Mchale over Pau dude. The Lakers wouldn't swept by the Mavs in 11 if prime Mchale was on dat team. Or how KG try to punk/own Gasol in 08? Dat wouldn't happened with Mchale man. Mchale would do some WWE crap and clotheslines one of their scrub players, then talk trash like prime Stone Cold Steve Austin to get everyone pumped up, and then proceed to dominant with at least 24 points and some solid defense or something instead of Gasol's 14.3 ppg in the finals.
Mchale had sooo much pimp in him that he had to name his post moves like it was one of his hoes. Real talk man. He created moves like "The Worm" or the "The Slippery Eel". Unstoppable moves bro. When has Pau been pimp enough to name his own post moves with such style? He's not even pimp enough to keep his head in the game sometimes. Case in point, 2011 playoffs.
When Mchale saw guys giants like Ralph Sampson, a 7'4 dude. And Hakeem the Dream in the Finals, y'know what Mchale did? He was like "I'm no punk" and dropped his pimpin' ho post moves on them, and had 26 ppg on 57%. Ralph Sampson was never the same.
You want prime Mchale and not Gasoft.
On topic:
I'll wait until the end of the season before I decide.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What did I suggest? I merely said Dirk is an elite scorer...on par with just about anyone as a scorer in playoff history other than MJ.
[/quote]
You are the one who jumped at me when I said he was never the premier/top tier scorer in the league. Its not the reverse.
[quote]
You seem to care a lot about regular seasons. I just...well, don't. Not for all time top 25 or so players of all time. I don't care about the regular season. I want to know what these guys can do against teams that are trying as hard and are the better teams in the league. I guess you value games against the Bobcats highly...I just don't.[/QUOTE]
Scoring is scoring - the second you start qualifying it, its a distortion. I never said anything accenting RS over PS.
[quote]
But it does. You are implying that players just "played bad"...and it didn't have anything to do with the Mavs. Which is just false of course.
[/quote]
I have always said Kidd had the best defensive stand ever (and I said this over and over again) I once said show me any player that had a tougher and as successful perimeter assignment in the history of the playoffs. And I was telling you that Tyson Chandler was a stellar defensive player during that year and you tried to make a joke of it. I've recently said he's more important to my team winning right now than Mello is. A player who is arguably, the premier scorer in the league.
[quote]
But again...that wasn't even really my point you responded to. I said the Mavs faced tougher competition than any Spurs title. So again...what year did the Spurs face tougher competition while winning the title?
Or do you just agree with me? [/quote]
I never said anything in regards to the Spurs, sorry wrong guy.
[QUOTE=TheCorporation]This is a tough one, as they are both elite scorers. I like KD's rebounding and D, though.
Give me Durant. They both can score a ton, but KD has the scoring titles and is extremely efficient. Not to mention KD rebounds and plays defense better.[/QUOTE]
I wouldnt say KD is a better rebounder for sure. Dirk was good in his prime, and was great in the playoffs
[QUOTE=DirkNowitzki41]I wouldnt say KD is a better rebounder for sure. Dirk was good in his prime, and was great in the playoffs[/QUOTE]
For sure. During Dirk's best season he recorded 9.9, and is a career 8.2 rpg. Durant still hasn't hit his peak but he averaged 7.9 last year and is averaging 8.2 this year with his career numbers currently sitting at 6.9. It's hard to say since KD hasn't hit his prime yet.
[QUOTE=TheCorporation]For sure. During Dirk's best season he recorded 9.9, and is a career 8.2 rpg. Durant still hasn't hit his peak but he averaged 7.9 last year and is averaging 8.2 this year with his career numbers currently sitting at 6.9. It's hard to say since KD hasn't hit his prime yet.[/QUOTE]
Dirk is an average at best rebounder for his position while Durant is a good rebounder for his position. It's all relative.