Apart from stats, what has CP3 accomplished?

[QUOTE=Young X]If getting to the conference finals without context is your berometer than why wouldn't you take Parker over Paul? After all Parker's an all star caliber player who's been to 9 conference finals right? I'm just going by your logic.[/QUOTE]

It's not without context moron.

It's not my logic at all. Stop acting like Paul has never had a chance to get out of the 2nd round. He has...he just didn't get it done. He either couldn't come through in a game 7 or was playing hurt or whatever excuse you want to throw out.

I don't consider Parker on the level of Paul for all the same reasons you don't. You just under-rate the **** out of all time greats that played in much tougher eras for pg's. Seriously....just look at what happened to Nash after the rules changed. Dude went from being really good....to ****ing all time great. If you want to ignore shit like that...go ahead, but don't come back saying..."nobody gets it"

You probably didn't see a lot of these guys play in their primes...and going off of just stats...and ignoring Paul's inability to do anything of note in the playoffs to date is silly.

I guess in 3 years we'll be crowning Curry as the 4th best pg ever clear cut...LOL

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I rarely state my position either way in an argument because what most often catches my eye is an absurd statement made by someone on one side or the other. I rarely even care which side is right or what they are talking about. Dumb statements catch my eye.

Far as where I rank Paul....you think I have a numbered top 16 point guards list I adjust now and then or what?

Magic Johnson is the best point guard ive seen.

Oscar may have been as good or better. I dont have enough evidence to argue it.

Them aside...

Paul isnt any worse than anyone ive seen with the possible exception of Isiah Thomas who like Paul I felt could just do anything he wanted....

Numbers? Eh.

I dont know how to put Chris Paul 4th and Jason Kidd 7th or what to do with John Stockton.

I could tell you player vs player easier than giving a list.[/QUOTE]


See. That is my point. And I agree by the way.

My response about the 2nd round stuff was that Paul needs something to separate himself from the players after Magic/Oscar...if someone were to say what you did above...I wouldn't bring that up because I don't know how to separate them either, but I think we all agree they are more or less on the same level.

If, however, someone wants to say Paul is the clear cut 2nd or 3rd best pg ever. I think it's more than valid to say that we simply haven't seen enough of him in the playoffs to separate him from the other guys in the top 10 or so.

That was my point.

When you have fagge.t haters, hating on you 24/7, you've had to have accomplished something.

Points are an unusual group to even judge on shit like this. Points dont lead teams to real winning because teams built to suit a point dont play playoff basketball.

It isnt by chance that only 2 teams have been led to the title by a point and one was 6'9'' and played center to win his first one and one was on a team with 5 all stars, the GOAT D to that point, 2 elite rebounders, and an all time great coach.


Want to talk about shit Parker won with Duncan, Westbrook with Durant, Stockton with Malone, Magic with Kareem, Isiah with half the talent in the eastern conference, Oscar with Kareem, Tiny with Larry Bird/Mchale/Parish, Cousy with Russell, Frazier with Reed(73 was probably his team...though Reed won finals MVP anyway)....I have to point out some of those players.

We have to go back to the likes of Bob Davies before a point flat out led a team that wasnt crazy loaded to real success without a better player on the roster. Points dont tend to be the guy to bring together a rag tag group of good players and make a run like a bigman or great enough swingman can do.

One reason all these "But what did he do in the playoffs" posts fall on deaf ears at least to me.

I dont care what Bob Cousy won when he didnt do it till Russell got there and I dont care what Oscar won with Kareem, or Tiny on the Celtics with Larry, or Tony Parker while Duncan is putting in work. I dont care what Westbrook does when Durant is dropping 40 twice a series or what Walt Frazier did with 6 hall of famers one of them the MVP.

I care to know....but im not gonna judge guys who had David West the same way.

Few points have had the big gap between them and their teams next most important player and just made it happen anyway. I dont expect Paul to do any more than most of the elites do when it all really falls on them.


Most of what great points did was while playing off superior players. Paul plays with one ill judge him by those standards.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Points are an unusual group to even judge on shit like this. Points dont lead teams to real winning because teams built to suit a point dont play playoff basketball.

It isnt by chance that only 2 teams have been led to the title by a point and one was 6'9'' and played center to win his first one and one was on a team with 5 all stars, the GOAT D to that point, 2 elite rebounders, and an all time great coach.


Want to talk about shit Parker won with Duncan, Westbrook with Durant, Stockton with Malone, Magic with Kareem, Isiah with half the talent in the eastern conference, Oscar with Kareem, Tiny with Larry Bird/Mchale/Parish, Cousy with Russell, Frazier with Reed(73 was probably his team...though Reed won finals MVP anyway)....I have to point out some of those players.

We have to go back to the likes of Bob Davies before a point flat out led a team that wasnt crazy loaded to real success without a better player on the roster. Points dont tend to be the guy to bring together a rag tag group of good players and make a run like a bigman or great enough swingman can do.

One reason all these "But what did he do in the playoffs" posts fall on deaf ears at least to me.

I dont care what Bob Cousy won when he didnt do it till Russell got there and I dont care what Oscar won with Kareem, or Tiny on the Celtics with Larry, or Tony Parker while Duncan is putting in work. I dont care what Westbrook does when Durant is dropping 40 twice a series or what Walt Frazier did with 6 hall of famers one of them the MVP.

I care to know....but im not gonna judge guys who had David West the same way.

Few points have had the big gap between them and their teams next most important player and just made it happen anyway. I dont expect Paul to do any more than most of the elites do when it all really falls on them.


Most of what great points did was while playing off superior players. Paul plays with one ill judge him by those standards.[/QUOTE]

That would make sense if I was doing that.

I think you have it backwards. It's the pro Paul side claiming certainty about him being better than guys like Kidd and Stockton. I'm not claiming that Kidd and Stockton are clearly better than Paul.

I'm saying that Paul hasn't done enough to separate himself from guys like that. When I evaluate them as just players...I don't look at Paul and see a player clearly better than Kidd was. In fact, I'd rather have Kidd as my guard in vacuum.

My argument is that if Paul wants to separate himself from that group...he has to do more. Which I think is more than fair.

But I'm still confused as to what the real argument is here...everyone outside of blatant trolls seem to have Paul somewhere in the top 10 pg's of all time.

I'd probably have him in the top 6 or so honestly if you made me rank them.

So who is really under-rating him? Who is really denying his greatness?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]See. That is my point. And I agree by the way.

My response about the 2nd round stuff was that Paul needs something to separate himself from the players after Magic/Oscar...if someone were to say what you did above...I wouldn't bring that up because I don't know how to separate them either, but I think we all agree they are more or less on the same level.

If, however, someone wants to say Paul is the clear cut 2nd or 3rd best pg ever. I think it's more than valid to say that we simply haven't seen enough of him in the playoffs to separate him from the other guys in the top 10 or so.

That was my point.[/QUOTE]

What exactly did Oscar do in the playoffs before he started playing with Kareem?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It's not without context moron.[/QUOTE]1st of all, why are you calling me a moron? I never insulted you at all. Calm down. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It's not my logic at all. Stop acting like Paul has never had a chance to get out of the 2nd round. He has...he just didn't get it done. He either couldn't come through in a game 7 or was playing hurt or whatever excuse you want to throw out.[/QUOTE]I'd say he had one realistic chance in 2008. He lost to the defending champ Spurs that won the same amount of games as his team. He brought his team well beyond what anybody thought they could go and had a brilliant MVP caliber season up to that point. He didn't have the best game and didn't take over in the last minutes, but neither did players I know you rank much higher than Paul in the same situation. Lebron in 2010 for example was clearly better than Paul yet he fared worse in the same situation.

And I'm not just talking about stats, I'm talking about all around play. The combination of scoring, passing, efficiency, defense, rebounding, clutch play, skill is better than any of the PG's you mentioned and he sees no drop off in the playoffs despite facing really tough teams in the west every season. His contribution to his teams is the only thing he has control over and that's what I'm judging him by. Simple.

[QUOTE=Young X]1st of all, why are you calling me a moron? I never insulted you at all. Calm down. :oldlol:

I'd say he had one realistic chance in 2008. He lost to the defending champ Spurs that won the same amount of games as his team. He brought his team well beyond what anybody thought they could go and had a brilliant MVP caliber season up to that point. He didn't have the best game and didn't take over in the last minutes, but neither did players in the same situation that I know you rank much higher than Paul. Lebron in 2010 for example was clearly better than Paul yet he fared worse in the same situation.

And I'm not just talking about stats, I'm talking about all around play. The combination of scoring, passing, efficiency, defense, rebounding, clutch play, skill is better than any of the PG's you mentioned and he sees no drop off in the playoffs despite facing really tough teams in the west every season. His contribution to his teams is the only thing he has control over and that's what I'm judging him by. Simple.[/QUOTE]


And all around play does not equal better. I've already tried to explain this to you. Paul is clearly a better all around player in the qualities you listed than Jason Kidd...yet I'd take Kidd over Paul prime vs prime from what I've seen to date.

And I don't think it's remotely controversial to do so.

But again...nobody is refuting Paul's greatness. A blatant troll might, but that is it.

What is in dispute is whether or not Paul should be known as better than some of the guys mentioned. And I just don't think he should. You obviously do.

And if you don't think it's valid for me to want Paul to actually do something of significance in the most important games of his career...then this is pointless.


Again...this is about where you are ranking Paul...not me. I have no issue with what Kblaze has said and the range he ranks Paul. But that isn't what you are saying...you are now saying he's the clear cut 3rd best pg ever. And I just don't see how Paul is any better than Thomas, Stockton, Kidd, and Penny...and it's hard to gauge some players with the joke rules of this era. Nash was true greatness once the rules changed.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]And all around play does not equal better. I've already tried to explain this to you. Paul is clearly a better all around player in the qualities you listed than Jason Kidd...yet I'd take Kidd over Paul prime vs prime from what I've seen to date.[/QUOTE]Can you please explain why besides "he got his team to the finals and Paul hasn't gotten past the 2nd round"?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Again...this is about where you are ranking Paul...not me. I have no issue with what Kblaze has said and the range he ranks Paul. But that isn't what you are saying...you are now saying he's the clear cut 3rd best pg ever. And I just don't see how Paul is any better than Thomas, Stockton, Kidd, and Penny...and it's hard to gauge some players with the joke rules of this era. Nash was true greatness once the rules changed.[/QUOTE]No. I said he's as good/better than the PG's not named Magic or Oscar which is exactly what he said also. I never said anything about "clear cut", someone like Payton or Nash could be ranked above him, nothing wrong with that.

[QUOTE=Young X]Can you please explain why besides "he got his team to the finals and Paul hasn't gotten past the 2nd round"?
No. I said he's as good/better than the PG's not named Magic or Oscar which is exactly what he said also. I never said anything about "clear cut", someone like Payton or Nash could be ranked above him, nothing wrong with that.[/QUOTE]

Why? Because I like how Kidd manages a game more than Paul. I think he makes his teammates better. I think Kidd was a far better defensive force as well...not just some shrug it off better defender....like played such good team defense that it's hard to score on them stuff.

Then who are you arguing with? Who is disrespecting Paul? Seems to me we all agree he's somewhere in the top 10 pg's ever and hasn't done enough to separate himself from guys like Kidd, Nash, Payton...etc.

What makes Paul better then someone like Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Walt Frazier, Bob Couy, Gary Payton before we talk about him with Stockton or Kidd he needs to differentiate himself from those players.

You know DMAVS apart from stats what did DIRK do before the Finals most memorable moment was losing to an 8th seed FIRST ROUND after winning 67+ games and then choking up 2-0 and Wade went for 40,6,7 the next 4 games.

Without Tyson Chandler Dirk would just be known as a S-O-F-T jump shootin euro,no d,Big.


You're lumping team success and individual talent into one like it's the same.

Oscar Robertson,one of goat if not goat PGs and Players didn't win much but people recognize talent and aren't as supid as his "TEAM",keyword TEAM
didn't win.

You've clearly been watching espn too much LeBron's team,KD's team,CP3's team,Jodan's Bulls,and so on.

Contrary to popular belief Jordan didnt win jack,his team did,same with Magic,Kobe,Shaq,DIRK.

And when you're best player ws David West,and now Blake Griffin with DJ and Crawford compared to everybody else,come on.



Without a solid team unless you're Wilt Chamerlain,LeBron YOU ARE NOT GOING VERY FAR.
There's only so much a player can do.

Think about it,without Chandler,withouTerry getting hot from 3,and the whole Mavs team playing beyond expectations and what they usually peform,and without LJ playing like a 6th man,they don't win.

Without Chandler,the Mavs don't even make it to Finals.Dirk wasn't exactly putting up Wade 06 finals numbers ever,or MJ,Hakeem,Shaq performances.
It was as much team effort as there was one.


CP3 is the BEST PG in NBA and one of the GOAT pG in History.


Jordan,Bird,Wilt,Oscar,Kareem wre getting called goat before any finals,
Jordan went 6 years before sniffng a finals,Wiltis called GOAT andl he won twice,

Teams win,not players
CP3 asn't playing like LJ6th man in 11 finals that you can say it's his fault.
He put up 34/16 and STILL LOST,like WTF more can he do.
He single handidly went 'basically toe to toe with the Lakers in the playoffs not long ago



Though let me guess,he didn't have the will,the killer insinct,he couldnt lead his team to the win right?

[QUOTE=Flash31]You know DMAVS apart from stats what did DIRK do before the Finalsmost memorable moment was losian 8th seed FIRST ROUND after winning 67+ games and then choking Hup 2-0 and Wade went for 40,6,7 the next 4 games.

Without Tyson Chandler Dirk would just be known as a S-O-F-Tump shootin euro,no d,Big.


You're lumping team success and individual talent into one like it's the same.

Oscar Robertson,one of goat if not goat PGs and Players didn't win much but people recognize talent and aren't as supid as his "TEAM",keyword TEAM
didn't win.

You're clearly teen watching espn too much LeBron's team,KD's team,CP3's team,Jodan's Bulls,and so on.

Contrary to popular belief Jordan didnt win jack,his team did,ame with Magic,Kobe,Shaell,DIRK.

And when you're best player ws David West,and now Bfin with DJ and Crawford compared to everybody else,come on.



Without a solid tanless you're Wilt Chamerlain,LeBron YOU ARE NOT GOING VERY FAR.
There's only so much a player can do.

Think about it,without Chandler,withouTerry getting hot from 3,and the whole Mavs team playing beyond expectations and what they ually peform,and without LJ playing like a 6th man,they don't win.

Without andler,the Mavs don't evee it to Finals.Dirk wasn't exactly putting up Wae 06 finals numbers ever,oJon,Hakeem,Shaq pperformances.
It was as much team effort as there was one.


CP3 is the EST PG in NBA and one of the GOAT G in History.


Jordan,Bird,Wilt,Oscar,Kareem wre getting cal before any finals,
Jodwent 6 year before sniffng a finals,Wiltis called GOAT andl twice,

Teams win,not players
CP3 asn't playing like LJ6th man in 11 finals that you can say it's his fault.
He pt up 34/16 and STILL LOST,like WTF more can he do.
He sigle handidly went 'basically toe to toe with the Lakers iplayoffs not lng ago



Though let me guess,he didn't have the will,the killer insinc,he couldnt lead his team to the win right?[/QUOTE]


What? I'll try to respond to the above chicken scratch.

Dirk led his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons. Had made the WCF 3 times. The finals twice. Led a team to 67 wins (one of the like 8 best records ever)...and with crap compared to the others in help. Won a MVP...

Not comparable at all. And was one of the best elimination game players in NBA history...while posting an undefeated record in game 7's...(5-0)...with three of those 5 games going for over 30/10. Including a 37/15 game against the Spurs at the peak of their powers on the road while making the game saving play to force overtime.

Not comparable. Dirk had done stuff before 2011 to get legend status. I really don't see how Paul not getting out of the 2nd round is remotely comparable to Dirk.

But whatever...

Not to mention the following;

Paul had Chandler! David West was better than Terry! Had Peja when he was still actually good!

LOL...

[QUOTE=Flash31]You know DMAVS apart from stats what did DIRK do before the Finalsmost memorable moment was losian 8th seed FIRST ROUND after winning 67+ games and then choking Hup 2-0 and Wade went for 40,6,7 the next 4 games.

Without Tyson Chandler Dirk would just be known as a S-O-F-Tump shootin euro,no d,Big.


You're lumping team success and individual talent into one like it's the same.

Oscar Robertson,one of goat if not goat PGs and Players didn't win much but people recognize talent and aren't as supid as his "TEAM",keyword TEAM
didn't win.

You're clearly teen watching espn too much LeBron's team,KD's team,CP3's team,Jodan's Bulls,and so on.

Contrary to popular belief Jordan didnt win jack,his team did,ame with Magic,Kobe,Shaell,DIRK.

And when you're best player ws David West,and now Bfin with DJ and Crawford compared to everybody else,come on.



Without a solid tanless you're Wilt Chamerlain,LeBron YOU ARE NOT GOING VERY FAR.
There's only so much a player can do.

Think about it,without Chandler,withouTerry getting hot from 3,and the whole Mavs team playing beyond expectations and what they ually peform,and without LJ playing like a 6th man,they don't win.

Without andler,the Mavs don't evee it to Finals.Dirk wasn't exactly putting up Wae 06 finals numbers ever,oJon,Hakeem,Shaq pperformances.
It was as much team effort as there was one.


CP3 is the EST PG in NBA and one of the GOAT G in History.


Jordan,Bird,Wilt,Oscar,Kareem wre getting cal before any finals,
Jodwent 6 year before sniffng a finals,Wiltis called GOAT andl twice,

Teams win,not players
CP3 asn't playing like LJ6th man in 11 finals that you can say it's his fault.
He pt up 34/16 and STILL LOST,like WTF more can he do.
He sigle handidly went 'basically toe to toe with the Lakers iplayoffs not lng ago



Though let me guess,he didn't have the will,the killer insinc,he couldnt lead his team to the win right?[/QUOTE]

David West was an All Star Player, Chandler a good defensive player and Peja a great shooter they may not had a great team but it was far from bad.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What? I'll try to respond to the above chicken scratch.

Dirk led his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons. Had made the WCF 3 times. The finals twice. Led a team to 67 wins (one of the like 8 best records ever)...and with crap compared to the others in help. Won a MVP...

Not comparable at all. And was one of the best elimination game players in NBA history...while posting an undefeated record in game 7's...(5-0)...with three of those 5 games going for over 30/10. Including a 37/15 game against the Spurs at the peak of their powers on the road while making the game saving play to force overtime.

Not comparable. Dirk had done stuff before 2011 to get legend status. I really don't see how Paul not getting out of the 2nd round is remotely comparable to Dirk.

But whatever...[/QUOTE]


Yeah I mean,a team winning 60 plus games and 50 plus for 15 years is Dirk leading his team and not him having solid players.He put up LJ type stats right?

You're honestly comparing CP3's Hornets and Clippers teams to Dirk's Mavericks teams and think they're one and the same?

It'll be one thing if CP3 played below expectations or just his usual in the playoffs but he didn't.He upped his game and yet the teams still lost.

Hell just look at the 2011 finals and tell me Dirk had a great series and it WASN'T A GREAT Team effort.


You're confusing team,keyword TEAM Sucess with individual accomplishments.
It'll be like blaming LeBron for the Cavs losing to the Magic in 09 or Wil;t for losing to the Celtics.

Jordan,one of if not the GOAT Player EVER Didn't go very far without a solid good team,but you know it's just his fault right?


Dirk before the 2011 finals was seen as a soft jump shooting big.There were absolutely 0 talks or discussions of him even coming close to top 5 PF,much less one of the GOAT PF like some say now.

Stop confusing team success with individual accomplishments.

[QUOTE=GoSpursGo1984]David West was an All Star Player, Chandler a good defensive player and Peja a great shooter they may not had a great team but it was far from bad.[/QUOTE]

That's like saying Mo Williams was an all-star,Gibson a great shooter,Varejao a good double double machine,or Wade had a good team with former all-star Jermaine O'Neal and 19,8 avg Beasley with a great shooter in Posey,or
the Pistons are a good team with all-star J-Smith and good d big in drummond.


Compared to the teams in the West then,the NOH weren't as good.
And now on the Clippers,it is literally CP3 Carrying and Leading the team.Without CP3,the Clipps offense,playmaking are BEYOND AWFUL.

It's like OKC without DURANT or WB,good yes,winning against playoff contenders NO.

Without CP3,LAC would struggle to win 35-40 games,if that much less be a top 4 team in West.

And they weren't exactly healthy(West) in NO when CP3 was there and Chandler wasn't yet DPOY yet and Peja wasn't SAC 20 ppg scorer either now,come on.

He had impact on his teams.

Hornets with Paul: [B]236-189 (.555)[/B]
Hornets without Paul: [B]29-38 (.433)[/B]

Clippers with Paul: [B]87-63 (.669)[/B]
Clippers without Paul: [B]9-9 (.500)[/B]

[QUOTE=Flash31]Yeah I mean,a team winning 60 plus games and 50 plus for 15 years is Dirk leading his team and not him having solid players.He put up LJ type stats right?

You're honestly comparing CP3's Hornets and Clippers teams to Dirk's Mavericks teams and think they're one and the same?

It'll be one thing if CP3 played below expectations or just his usual in the playoffs but he didn't.He upped his game and yet the teams still lost.

Hell just look at the 2011 finals and tell me Dirk had a great series and it WASN'T A GREAT Team effort.


You're confusing team,keyword TEAM Sucess with individual accomplishments.
It'll be like blaming LeBron for the Cavs losing to the Magic in 09 or Wil;t for losing to the Celtics.

Jordan,one of if not the GOAT Player EVER Didn't go very far without a solid good team,but you know it's just his fault right?


Dirk before the 2011 finals was seen as a soft jump shooting big.There were absolutely 0 talks or discussions of him even coming close to top 5 PF,much less one of the GOAT PF like some say now.

Stop confusing team success with individual accomplishments.[/QUOTE]

I don't care what perception was. It's about reality. Reality is that Dirk did way more in his career pre 2011 than Paul has to date. It's not even remotely close.

And actually...look at Paul's Hornets team in 08. Don't you think it's silly propping up Terry/Chandler/Marion...etc?

I'll say it again. Paul had CHANDLER! He had David West who is just flat out better than Terry. He had Peja when he was good. That was a good team.

I just love it. Chandler and Terry are used against Dirk...but somehow Chandler and West aren't used against Paul? West was a 21/9/3 beast in the 08 playoffs that defended well. Easily better than 11 Terry...like not even close overall to be honest. Nobody would rather have Terry than West.

And I'm not even using that against Paul...I'm saying that in order for Paul to get on that legendary status...it's going to take doing something legendary. Like Paul dominating a game 7. Winning as an underdog...doing shit. Otherwise I see no reason to vault him over guys I feel were just as good.

[QUOTE=Flash31]Yeah I mean,a team winning 60 plus games and 50 plus for 15 years is Dirk leading his team and not him having solid players.He put up LJ type stats right?

You're honestly comparing CP3's Hornets and Clippers teams to Dirk's Mavericks teams and think they're one and the same?

It'll be one thing if CP3 played below expectations or just his usual in the playoffs but he didn't.He upped his game and yet the teams still lost.

Hell just look at the 2011 finals and tell me Dirk had a great series and it WASN'T A GREAT Team effort.


You're confusing team,keyword TEAM Sucess with individual accomplishments.
It'll be like blaming LeBron for the Cavs losing to the Magic in 09 or Wil;t for losing to the Celtics.

Jordan,one of if not the GOAT Player EVER Didn't go very far without a solid good team,but you know it's just his fault right?


Dirk before the 2011 finals was seen as a soft jump shooting big.There were absolutely 0 talks or discussions of him even coming close to top 5 PF,much less one of the GOAT PF like some say now.

Stop confusing team success with individual accomplishments.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

Great Post.

Anyway CP3 is an absolute beast. One the greatest PG's I've seen in my lifetime.

And this thread (and thread title) is dumb.

[QUOTE=Replay32]:applause:

Great Post.

Anyway CP3 is an absolute beast. One the greatest PG's I've seen in my lifetime.

And this thread (and thread title) is dumb.[/QUOTE]

:facepalm