Is Shawn Marion a HOFer?

[QUOTE=andgar923]He's a role player that wasn't even special at that. He wasn't great at anything to be honest.

He was basically Cedric Ceballos 2.0 with better defense and athleticism.[/QUOTE]
Apex Ceballos put up close to 2 points every three minutes on strong percentages. Like Marion he was a good rebounder especially for a 3.

Combine that with with strong, versatile D (including steals and blocks) and a longer prime and that's not chopped liver.

Admittedly Marion was never quite as potent a scorer as apex Ceballos, but that package (%s, rebounds, blocks, steals, runs the floor, versatile etc) whether hypothetical improved Ceballos (high volume scorer) or Marion (high-mid volume scorer) combing all that together is very, very rare and highly valuable.

[QUOTE=Owl]Apex Ceballos put up close to 2 points every three minutes on strong percentages. Like Marion he was a good rebounder especially for a 3.

Combine that with with strong, versatile D (including steals and blocks) and a longer prime and that's not chopped liver.

Admittedly Marion was never quite as potent a scorer as apex Ceballos, but that package (%s, rebounds, blocks, steals, runs the floor, versatile etc) whether hypothetical improved Ceballos (high volume scorer) or Marion (high-mid volume scorer) combing all that together is very, very rare and highly valuable.[/QUOTE]

But neither is a HOFer.

[QUOTE=andgar923]But neither is a HOFer.[/QUOTE]

Role players? Yes, role players usually find themselves on all-nba teams. They usually become all-stars, multiple times at that. They usually do 20/10 seasons. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=FrobeShaw]Role players? Yes, role players usually find themselves on all-nba teams. They usually become all-stars, multiple times at that. They usually do 20/10 seasons. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but is that HOF worthy?

NO

HOFers are their team's leaders, more than not they're 'franchise' players. At worse, they've been a huge part in their team's role to win a number of championships or maintain their level at the top on a very consistent basis. Cedric and Shawn are good at what they do, neither of them are as great as say Rodman.

So in short, Marion's name and HOF shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

[QUOTE=andgar923]Yeah, but is that HOF worthy?

NO

[B]HOFers are their team's leaders, more than not they're 'franchise' players. At worse, they've been a huge part in their team's role to win a number of championships or maintain their level at the top on a very consistent basis. [/B]Cedric and Shawn are good at what they do, neither of them are as great as say Rodman.

So in short, Marion's name and HOF shouldn't even be in the same sentence.[/QUOTE]

Go look at the damn HoF before talking out of your ass. Perhaps you'll be surprised at the names.

[QUOTE=FrobeShaw]Go look at the damn HoF before talking out of your ass. Perhaps you'll be surprised at the names.[/QUOTE]
I can almost guarantee that the players that aren't 'franchise' players were either:

-Multiple champions and played a pivotal role
-Helped revolutionize an aspect/position

Marion has done nothing of being remembered. A solid player barely an all star at his peak. Has done nothing on the collegiate level or international play worth noting either.

[QUOTE=andgar923]I can almost guarantee that the players that aren't 'franchise' players were either:

-Multiple champions and played a pivotal role
-Helped revolutionize an aspect/position

Marion has done nothing of being remembered. . Has done nothing on the collegiate level or international play worth noting either.[/QUOTE]

22/12/2/2 are barely all-star numbers?

Find everyone, in the modern era, who has done that stat line. It will be Hakeem and Robinson. Pretty good company, I'd say.

Also, go look at the HoF and come back and tell me how you really feel.

I've always thought HOFers should have been Top 3-5 at their position for a consistent period of time, revolutionized their position somehow, or at least excelled at something so much that it couldn't be ignored. I don't think Marion meets the criteria. Stats aren't everything and should be put into context. Marion wasn't putting up 20/10 like most stars in the league. He was a good garbageman on a fast-paced team. He used his athleticism and ran the floor hard for layups and dunks (it helps when Marbury, Kidd or Nash are spoonfeeding you) and hit the offensive glass for put-backs but he wasn't the guy you were going to throw the ball to and have him create for himself or anyone else. If Marion were a serious offensive threat and putting up 20/10 he would certainly have more than two All-NBA third teams.

Only 4 all-star games and a title as a complementary piece shouldn't get you in the HOF.

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It's disturbing that he's NEVER made a single All-Defensive Team. Then again, in 2014, I don't think many take accolades seriously anymore, fortunately.

[QUOTE=fpliii]It's disturbing that he's NEVER made a single All-Defensive Team. Then again, in 2014, I don't think many take accolades seriously anymore, fortunately.[/QUOTE]

Kobe Bryant has the most first team all defensive honors for his generation. :rockon:

[QUOTE=FrobeShaw]Kobe Bryant has the most first team all defensive honors for his generation. :rockon:[/QUOTE]
I'm a big Kobe fan, but some of his all-D selections are shams.

Marion's peak year was 05-06 when he became the 1st scoring option when Amare went down. Where did he rank among players that year ? Top 15-20 ? :confusedshrug:

Just can't see the substance for him going in, but I wouldn't exactly be surprised if he went in either. The basketball HOF is easy mode standards.

[QUOTE=fpliii]It's disturbing that he's NEVER made a single All-Defensive Team. Then again, in 2014, I don't think many take accolades seriously anymore, fortunately.[/QUOTE]
While Kobe made ten or something:facepalm :facepalm

[QUOTE=fpliii]It's disturbing that he's NEVER made a single All-Defensive Team. Then again, in 2014, I don't think many take accolades seriously anymore, fortunately.[/QUOTE]

I would say Marion was penalized for playing on those Suns teams who were average defensively but then again Raja Bell made the All-D team when playing with the Suns so who knows?

[QUOTE=FrobeShaw]22/12/2/2 are barely all-star numbers?

Find everyone, in the modern era, who has done that stat line. It will be Hakeem and Robinson. Pretty good company, I'd say.

Also, go look at the HoF and come back and tell me how you really feel.[/QUOTE]

He was a reserve for almost all of them was he not? that's "barely" making it.

Yeah... go look at HOFers and compare them to Marion.

Do not solely judge them by their stats, but by their accomplishments and contributions.

Marion was a good rebounder that wasn't guarded, he was left alone to roam free offensively on teams that shot a ton of shots and missed them as well.

He was a solid/good defender but never a Defensive Player Player of the Year candidate (was he even ever in the running?).

[QUOTE=andgar923]He was a reserve for almost all of them was he not? that's "barely" making it.

Yeah... go look at HOFers and compare them to Marion.

Do not solely judge them by their stats, but by their accomplishments and contributions.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's what I did too. Also, I went by how they were regarded at their respective time. Marion's best production came in a span of years was from... 01-02 to 05-06. Was ever regarded as a Top 10 player ? Or the best at his position ? Top 5 at his position perhaps ? And even then, it didn't last very long.

Like I said before, he's not HOF according to the standards I see it. The HOF should be for the very elite level of players. The ones that were consistently up there as perennial all-stars, number of all-nba/defensive teams, MVP voting, memorable and very high level of playoff runs, etc... Marion just doesn't meet that requirement. But obviously, as there have been worse player who have made it in, I wouldn't be surprised if he went in.

Out of the 'active' HOF probability players he ranks at no.21.

Now those are for players that are active. He's eligible after he retires (forgot the number of seasons). Not only that, he has to go up against other players that haven't been inducted yet that have been in the ballot in the past. On top of that, he has to go up against international and college players. Those are just players, that's not including coaches, and other people that made a contribution to the game of basketball.

And even then, his numbers are misleading like hitman explained above.

Nobody that's seen him play will think "he's a HOF player!!!"

Not a 1st ballot, not a 2nd, not a 3rd, not a 4th, not a 5th.

[QUOTE=andgar923]Out of the 'active' HOF probability players he ranks at no.21.

Now those are for players that are active. He's eligible after he retires (forgot the number of seasons). Not only that, he has to go up against other players that haven't been inducted yet that have been in the ballot in the past. On top of that, he has to go up against international and college players. Those are just players, that's not including coaches, and other people that made a contribution to the game of basketball.

And even then, his numbers are misleading like hitman explained above.

[B]Nobody that's seen him play will think "he's a HOF player!!!"[/B]

Not a 1st ballot, not a 2nd, not a 3rd, not a 4th, not a 5th.[/QUOTE]

I'd agree, but I think he's likely going to make it in based on some of the selections in the past. I do think you're underrating his chances somewhat given how the HOF selects guys, but I'm more of a small hall guy personally. A lot of players who have been enshrined have had no business making it in, but Naismith is very inclusive (compared to Cooperstown for instance...the voters there are misguided, but I like a more exclusive hall).

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Yeah, that's what I did too. Also, I went by how they were regarded at their respective time. Marion's best production came in a span of years was from... 01-02 to 05-06. Was ever regarded as a Top 10 player ? Or the best at his position ? Top 5 at his position perhaps ? And even then, it didn't last very long.

Like I said before, he's not HOF according to the standards I see it. The HOF should be for the very elite level of players. The ones that were consistently up there as perennial all-stars, number of all-nba/defensive teams, MVP voting, memorable and very high level of playoff runs, etc... Marion just doesn't meet that requirement. But obviously, as there have been worse player who have made it in, I wouldn't be surprised if he went in.[/QUOTE]

Even if there's been worse players. People aren't inducted to the HOF solely for their play, there's other factors that come into play. Also, most of them were from the earlier eras that are considered pioneers.

Im sure fans 30 years from now, will look at some of the players inducted from our generation and look at their stats and be like :wtf: :facepalm :rolleyes: but we'd remember them fondly. Which is one of the reasons why I try hard not to debate or judge players from previous eras (70s and earlier).

For most of us that saw him play, he's not a HOF player.

Shit, just not to long ago we were arguing whether or not Cweb was a HOF player, people were debating whether or not VC was a HOF candidate as well as Pau Gasol.

Now players all have a legit chance at being in the HOF, Marion doesn't belong in the same sentence as them.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I'd agree, but I think he's likely going to make it in based on some of the selections in the past. I do think you're underrating his chances somewhat given how the HOF selects guys, but I'm more of a small hall guy personally. A lot of players who have been enshrined have had no business making it in, but Naismith is very inclusive (compared to Cooperstown for instance...the voters there are misguided, but I like a more exclusive hall).[/QUOTE]

Naw... there's a list of players that have a legit shot that have yet to be elected, and they may still be in the running when he's eligible.

IF (big IF)

He is ever to be inducted, it'll be like 15 years after he's eligible.

Reggie Miller made the Hall from a series which his team lost, and this reputation as a clutch God when in actuality you're guaranteed bricks in crunch time
Remember, this is the same Guy that received as many MVP votes in 20 years as Antoine Walker did in one, and no one considers him a HOF

Many Ginobili's a career bench player that just happens to play for a winning organization
Of course, cue someone that brings up hos gold medal, to which I say let's put Luis Scola in while we're at it:applause:

If these two jokers can make it, so can the Matrix

[QUOTE=Audio One]Reggie Miller made the Hall from a series which his team lost, and this reputation as a clutch God when in actuality you're guaranteed bricks in crunch time
Remember, this is the same Guy that received as many MVP votes in 20 years as Antoine Walker did in one, and no one considers him a HOF

Many Ginobili's a career bench player that just happens to play for a winning organization
Of course, cue someone that brings up hos gold medal, to which I say let's put Luis Scola in while we're at it:applause:

If these two jokers can make it, so can the Matrix[/QUOTE]

What a disaster of a post.

Must certeeenly

[QUOTE=Audio One]Reggie Miller made the Hall from a series which his team lost, and this reputation as a clutch God when in actuality you're guaranteed bricks in crunch time
Remember, this is the same Guy that received as many MVP votes in 20 years as Antoine Walker did in one, and no one considers him a HOF

Many Ginobili's a career bench player that just happens to play for a winning organization
Of course, cue someone that brings up hos gold medal, to which I say let's put Luis Scola in while we're at it:applause:

If these two jokers can make it, so can the Matrix[/QUOTE]

:biggums:

[QUOTE=Audio One]Reggie Miller made the Hall from a series which his team lost, and this reputation as a clutch God when in actuality you're guaranteed bricks in crunch time[/QUOTE]

No, that's not why he made the HOF.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]No, that's not why he made the HOF.[/QUOTE]

Then I'm expecting Antawn Jamison to make the Hall as well when its all said and done. Might as well throw Mark Jackson in as well

[QUOTE=Audio One]Reggie Miller made the Hall from a series which his team lost, and this reputation as a clutch God when in actuality you're guaranteed bricks in crunch time
Remember, this is the same Guy that received as many MVP votes in 20 years as Antoine Walker did in one, and no one considers him a HOF

Many Ginobili's a career bench player that just happens to play for a winning organization
Of course, cue someone that brings up hos gold medal, to which I say let's pit Luis Scholar in while we're at it:applause:

If these two jokers can make it, so can the Matrix[/QUOTE]

Not sure if serious.

[QUOTE=andgar923]Yeah, but is that HOF worthy?

NO

HOFers are their team's leaders, more than not they're 'franchise' players. At worse, they've been a huge part in their team's role to win a number of championships or maintain their level at the top on a very consistent basis. Cedric and Shawn are good at what they do, neither of them are as great as say Rodman.

So in short, Marion's name and HOF shouldn't even be in the same sentence.[/QUOTE]
How about the aforementioned Reggie. Not a franchise player (5 time all-star, 3 time 3rd team All-NBA, two years of very peripheral MVP vote getting; all very similar to Marion, as was Rodman).

A number of championships? No. Were the Pacers consistently "On top"? No, they had one season, one, with an SRS above 5 (a very rough benchmark for legit contenders, 7 teams are above it this season).

Marion was fortunate to play at a fast pace with Marbury and Nash? Wasn't Miller lucky to land in an offense that was willing to run screen after screen for him to get shots? To play with the second best passing point guard of that era (3rd in career total assists behind Stockton and Kidd).

Marion isn't as memorable, he doesn't have a calling card like Rodman (rebounding, crazy, early career D) or Miller (all time great shooter, memorable playoff moments) so if you want it to be literally a Hall of [B]Fame[/B], maybe Marion can be out and those guys be in. But if it's about the quality of play he's in their ballpark.

You mention C-Webb, was he a franchise? He had an incredible uber-deep supporting cast in Sacramento, yet he didn't get to any finals. He was the face of two franchises that passed him on (for lesser players) because he was considered a malcontent (not to mention what he did to Michigan, or that Orlando traded him for Penny), who couldn't carry a franchise. He probably has less truly productive years than Marion (after his rookie year, he only got started again in '97 and was done after injuries in 2002). Like Miller and Marion he played with great passers. When he fell of substantially his team barely got any worse. But he looked like a franchise getting 24ppg so we can ignore the woeful shooting (from the field and the line). And then add in a reputation for shrinking in the clutch/playoffs establish in folklore by his NCAA timeout and backed up by his playoff stats (even after accounting for playing some playoff time outside his prime).

You can nitpick any of the non-legends (top 40-50 or so) like this. But they're in the Hall as it stands (or will be, in Webber's case). And as I said Marion doesn't have a calling card. Still, if it's about how well you played pro basketball, and the bar is where it is now, Marion deserves it.

[QUOTE=Audio One]Reggie Miller made the Hall from a series which his team lost, and this reputation as a clutch God when in actuality you're guaranteed bricks in crunch time
Remember, this is the same Guy that received as many MVP votes in 20 years as Antoine Walker did in one, and no one considers him a HOF

Many Ginobili's a career bench player that just happens to play for a winning organization
Of course, cue someone that brings up hos gold medal, to which I say let's put Luis Scola in while we're at it:applause:

If these two jokers can make it, so can the Matrix[/QUOTE]


Damn you are a faulking retard or my sarcasm meter is broken

He put bron on lock in the finals:lol . He deserves recognition, as does Boris Diaw. If not for that one 2011/2013 series i'd definitely say no but when your locking the supposed "best player in the nba" and exposing him to being a 0% skilled 100% athleticism scrub.. that can never be overlooked. Lebron made these guys hall of famers. I think it's safe to say bron doesn't make his teammates better, but his opponents. :roll:

[QUOTE=GOATbe]He put bron on lock in the finals:lol . He deserves recognition, as does Boris Diaw. If not for that one 2011/2013 series i'd definitely say no but when your locking the supposed "best player in the nba" and exposing him to being a 0% skilled 100% athleticism scrub.. that can never be overlooked. Lebron made these guys hall of famers. I think it's safe to say bron doesn't make his teammates better, but his opponents. :roll:[/QUOTE]
You should switch to your banned account. Better for everybody's eyes.

[QUOTE=GOATbe]He put bron on lock in the finals:lol . He deserves recognition, as does Boris Diaw. If not for that one 2011/2013 series i'd definitely say no but when your locking the supposed "best player in the nba" and exposing him to being a 0% skilled 100% athleticism scrub.. that can never be overlooked. Lebron made these guys hall of famers. I think it's safe to say bron doesn't make his teammates better, but his opponents. :roll:[/QUOTE]
0/10 Tried too hard :sleeping

[QUOTE=Audio One]Reggie Miller made the Hall from a series which his team lost, and this reputation as a clutch God when in actuality you're guaranteed bricks in crunch time
Remember, this is the same Guy that received as many MVP votes in 20 years as Antoine Walker did in one, and no one considers him a HOF

Many Ginobili's a career bench player that just happens to play for a winning organization
Of course, cue someone that brings up hos gold medal, to which I say let's put Luis Scola in while we're at it:applause:

If these two jokers can make it, so can the Matrix[/QUOTE]

:coleman:

[QUOTE=Audio One]Reggie Miller made the Hall from a series which his team lost, and this reputation as a clutch God when in actuality you're guaranteed bricks in crunch time
Remember, this is the same Guy that received as many MVP votes in 20 years as Antoine Walker did in one, and no one considers him a HOF

[B]Many Ginobili's a career bench player that just happens to play for a winning organization[/B]
Of course, cue someone that brings up hos gold medal, to which I say let's put Luis Scola in while we're at it:applause:

If these two jokers can make it, so can the Matrix[/QUOTE]

I didn't agree with Reggie getting in but Ginobili is a special case where he's been a big part of winning anywhere he's gone. His resume speaks for itself...Euroleague championship and MVP, big contributor to 3 NBA championships as the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team, 2004 Olympic gold medal as leader of his team and it doesn't hurt he's always been a very exciting player to watch.