Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I don't get this who was the leader of the team thing. The team before Magic was totally different than the team once he arrived with Magic being the only new piece. Magic was given the franchise contract his second year and in consequence Kareem, who never really had great connect with teammates, threatened to leave the team. I don't see how he could be considered the leader of the team under those conditions.

If you watched the games it's obvious as day who the decision maker was and you could not name me anybody in the history of the league that had more control of the game than Magic did? Who are you saying was the leader of the team?[/QUOTE]

Kareem was considered the leader of team it seems. Right before the 1987 season, Pat Riley wanted Magic to be more aggressive and become the leader and first option of the team, and Magic wanted to ask if it was ok with Kareem first. I don't know what that entitles. Officially being captain of the team, vocal leader, first option, or whatever. It was documented that in 87, Pat Riley told Magic that he wanted him to score more and be the first option on the team. Magic, Riley and Kareem said this:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3Zqj9p033g#t=44m10s[/url]

[quote]
"Everybody could see that we wasn't favorite pals or buddies the first three or four years. [B]I think I wanted him to know I wasn't trying to get into his territory; he was the man.[/B] But things came so fast for me that maybe he thought I was intruding. I don't know."

Kareem could see Magic holding back, but that was OK with Abdul-Jabbar. He wasn't the type to rush into a deep friendship, either.
[/quote]
[url]http://articles.latimes.com/1987-01-08/sports/sp-2903_1_magic-johnson[/url]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]too bad larry couldnt come through in 3 title opportunities vs magic. no excuses either. bird shot .449% in the '85 finals and shot .445% in the '87 finals.....if he played well i wouldnt say shit..but lets be real... not only did he lose to magic's lakers 3 times, he played well below his standards in all 3 matchups.[/QUOTE]


Well in 85 he had an excuse because he was dealing with injuries, but the Celtics team in 85 was better than it was in 84. Plus he went against Michael Cooper, who Bird claims is the best defender to guard him.

And in 84, I always felt that he and Kareem were the best in the series. The team tried to stop Kareem more than they tried to stop Magic, and the Lakers stuck to Bird like glue if I can recall, but he was missing some jumpers and layups around the rim. But he battled for the boards against Kareem, and give his team extra chances. But the Lakers shot themselves in the foot mostly. In 85, the Celts I thought had the better team with Mchale becoming unstoppable and good defensively, but Bird got injured and didn't perform well.

And there are excuses, but Bird in general wasn't a better playoff performer than Magic.

[QUOTE=dankok8]McHale better than Kareem in '85 Finals? Please show me one source that claims that. Look at their assist numbers and clutch scoring from recaps. Bottom line is in the 1980 run and also the 1985 Finals Kareem > Magic and he should have won both FMVP's. I mean there is no way around that.
[/quote]
Kareem of the 80's was a byproduct of Magic. Simple question to you, who would you rather have: Kareem in his peak and prime or Kareem next to Magic. There is a reason for that.

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]

2. I was there watching Kareem and Magic and the Lakers as a kid at the time...Magic was clearly the leader of the Lakers hands down...Kareem could put up numbers because he had the hook and Magic got him the ball all the time...but Magic was clearly the most important cog from '82 on...unless you watched it, you wouldn't know..the poster who said the Lakers were Kareem's team until '87...what ARE you smokin? :pimp:[/QUOTE]

Not until 8 years into Showtime did Magic become better than Kareem my friend. Here are some articles that talk about how Magic finally took the torch from Kareem in 86-87 and became the leader of the Lakers.

[url]http://forums.realgm.com/boards/view...f=64&t=1200219[/url]

[QUOTE]
Kareem passed the torch, unselfishly, realizing that at 40, he could no longer dominate the offense.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]“Everyone on the team accepted my new role, and that was the key,” said Magic, who has added an adaptation of Abdul-Jabbar’s sky hook to his showcase. “Kareem gave me the nod. He told me to take over, go for it. - Magic Johnson[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]“I never had doubts that I could do it, but there were other people to consider. Kareem, James [Worthy]. I didn’t know how they would be affected. It would have been frustrating if they hadn’t accepted my new role.
I knew I would eventually shoot more, but I thought it would be after Jabbar was gone.” - Magic Johnson[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]“I had doubts, repeated doubts that this would work,” Riley confessed. “I was unfamiliar with the territory I was treading. The first week of training camp was as chaotic as anything I’d ever been through. I was comfortable with the old offense. I had the greatest post player of all time. But I knew we had to make a change.”
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
This season’s Lakers were different from any previous Laker teams. When it came time for “Showtime,” the spotlight was on, not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, as it had been for the previous decade, but Johnson. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Kareem of the 80's was a byproduct of Magic. Simple question to you, who would you rather have: Kareem in his peak and prime or Kareem next to Magic. There is a reason for that.[/QUOTE]

I'll take two superstars over one but prime 70's Kareem is better than any version of Magic or Kareem after '82.

This notion that Kareem needed Magic to make him is pretty crazy. Kareem led his team to a title in '71 on maybe the most dominant team ever. In '74 with Oscar playing like a role player, Lucious Allen, and no all-stars on his team Kareem led the Bucks to a Game 7 Finals loss against a vastly superior Celtics squad. He won 5 MVP's (tied for most overall) before Magic ever set foot on the court. He couldn't win more because he a) didn't have the right talent around him especially with the Lakers b) his teammates got injured. Apart from '73 playoffs Kareem played pretty damn great with many of those years on GOAT level. Look at how Kareem played in '70, '74, '77, and '79 for instance.

[QUOTE=dankok8]McHale better than Kareem in '85 Finals? Please show me one source that claims that. Look at their assist numbers and clutch scoring from recaps. Bottom line is in the 1980 run and also the 1985 Finals Kareem > Magic and he should have won both FMVP's. I mean there is no way around that.

Of course when Lakers could force their tempo Magic would thrive but until 86-87 he wasn't a great half-court player.



Kareem shot higher % in the 80's because he played at a higher pace and because he took far fewer shots. Sure Magic helped him but also vice versa. Kareem would retire with 1 title without Magic but Magic might have retired with 0 without Kareem.



Magic, Lebron, and Hakeem are my favorite all-time players. But the Kareem and Bird hate on this thread is ridiculous.



As for Magic vs. Bird let's really break it down. And don't forget Bird was a MUCH BETTER defensive player. Off-ball he was like a chess player anticipating his opponents' moves. He did things that don't show on the stat sheet like deny passes, cut off driving lanes, and forcing difficult shots without blocking them.

Magic quite truthfully was a liability against smaller PG's. He held his own against forwards which he usually covered and he could rack up steals but he was just about an average defender.

[B]79-80 [/B]

Bird joins a 29-win team and they win 60 games, biggest turnaround in league history at the time. He finishes 2nd in MVP voting and leads his team to the ECF putting 21/11/5 on 47% shooting in the playoffs.

There is no way Magic was better this year unless you take his Game 6 in the Finals and ignore everything else.

[B]80-81[/B]

Bird leads his team to an upset of the Sixers while handily outplaying MVP Dr. J. Of course he then wins a title title while averaging 22/14/6 on 47% shooting in the playoffs.

In 81-82 and 82-83 I can give Magic an edge but in '83 playoffs Bird suffered from a myriad of injuries. And Magic had a rather bad series in the '83 Finals.

[B]83-84[/B]

Bird leads his Celtics over the favored Lakers while averaging 28/11/6 on 52% shooting in the playoffs and 27/14/4 on 48% shooting in the finals. Meanwhile Tragic Magic chokes away two games.

[B]84-85[/B]

Again Bird is a monster in the playoffs averaging 26/9/6 on 46% shooting. By the end of the ECF against Sixers he suffers an injury and plays well below 100% but is still great in the finals putting up 24/9/5 on 45% shooting.

[B]85-86[/B]

No comment needed. Bird >>

[B]86-87[/B]

Bird averages 27/10/7 on 48% shooting and leads the heavily depleted Celtics with injuries to almost all starters except Larry to the Finals and a close loss to the Lakers. Magic is transcendent but barely better than Bird.

[B]87-88[/B]

Bird struggles against Detroit but look at his performances against the Hawks and all season long. He averages 25/9/7 on 45% shooting in the playoffs.

In 88-89, Bird's back gives out and he's never the same player again.

So in their first 9 years it's something like this.

Magic was easily better in '82 and '83
Magic was a bit better in '87 and '88
Bird was a bit better in '85
Bird was a lot better in '80, '81, '84, and '86

Overall for their careers I would take Magic over Bird by a hair because his prime was effectively 3 years longer. But those who watched both of them... Boston fans would say Bird is better, LA fans would say Magic is better, and all the neutral fans would refuse to rank them or put them side by side.

I never want to hear shit like Magic >>> Bird (or vice versa) ever again! Please for the love of god. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

You didn't refute a DAMN thing in my previous post...

Post-season play:

1980...only a complete idoot would claim that Bird was better than the well-deserving FMVP in a post-season. Hell, they won the deciding game without Kareem forcryingoutloud. Evidently he was holding Magic back...as evidenced by a Finals game far greater than Bird ever had.

1981. I gave that one to Bird by default, and not because Bird played well. He was simply awful in the Finals, and needed Ced Maxwell's well deserved FMVP to barely beat a 40-42 team in the Finals. In a season in which Magic missed half the year, and was eliminated in the post-season by a stupid best-of-three series, and in that series, Moses completely annihilated your boy KAJ.

1982. Here again, Bird struggled against the Sixers, while Magic destroyed them in the Finals. Not even close.

1983. Bird was injured, so what. Magic missed the last half of the '81 season. And, while Magic was not exceptional in the Finals, he also wasn't KAJ getting creamed by Moses, either.

1984. One bad Worthy pass, and one Magic missed FT cost LA a sweep, which would have easily earned Magic his third FMVP. KAJ gagged in the critical five, and Bird's teammates overcame his awful shooting in the clinching game seven (6-18 from the field) to win a FMVP. Here again, I gave this one to Bird, but not by much. "Tragic" put up an 18 ppg, 7.7 rpg (leading LA,...where was your boy KAJ?), 13.6 apg, .560 FG% Finals...while Bird shot .488 and Kareem an even worse .481 (just one of several in which he shot below the post-season norm.)

1985. KAJ was the FMVP, but Magic was CLEARLY better than Bird, who was only the FIFTH best player in the series, and was badly outplayed by his teammate McHale. What a disgrace.

1986. Thanks to Kareem's hug e dropoff from his regular season annihilation of Hakeem (actually thanks to Sampson's suffocating defense on KAJ, instead of a helpless Hakeem), the Lakers were stunned by the Rockets. Bird had a great Finals, and I would give him a clear edge here.

1987. Magic's '87 Finals was better than any that Bird ever dreamed of having, and Bird again wasted a fine effort by both DJ and McHale, and couldn't shoot for his life (.445.) And please...a CLOSE series??? The Lakers slaughtered Boston in three of their four wins, and won the close game because Magic made the winning shot, while Bird bricked his.

1988. Bird was awful against the Pistons...plain-and-simple. A Piston team that Magic destroyed, along with Worthy, while KAJ was a nice role player. Incidently, 87-88 was probably Bird's greatest regular season, too. And then he butchered the post-season. A CLEAR win for Magic (who SHOULD have won his 4th FMVP.) As a sidenote, has there ever been another GOAT candidate who played as awful as KAJ in the '88 post-season, and Finals (and just puked all over the floor in that game seven?)

1989. Bird was washed up. Meanwhile, magic carried LA to an 11-0 playoff record. But in the 11th win, they lost Byron Scott (and his 20 ppg) to a season ending injury, and then Magic in game two. Without Magic, and with Kareem a complete waste, the Lakers were swept. In any case, a HUGE edge to Magic.

1990. Without KAJ, Magic carries LA to a 63-19 record. And Bird actually had a good post-season for once, but it only lasted for five games, in a 4-1 blowout loss. Meanwhile, even in a second round loss, Magic was by far greater than Bird had been that post-season. Another solid win for Magic.

1991. While Bird was simply awful in the '91 post-season, Magic carried an injured and rapidly declining Laker team to the Finals. A HUGE wdge for Magic.

Those were the FACTS. And yes, Magic >>>>>> Bird in their post-season play.

again...LA would have won the 1980 finals in even more dominant fashion without kareem. seriously. thats why they won 123-107 without him. both the highest scoring game by the lakers and the highest margin of victory.....and it was on the road....and it was win or go home(stay home) for the sixers so they gave it their best shot. with no kareem to slow them down the lakers ran the sixers off the court....nuff said.

kareems "legend" is so freaking overrated.

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]

2. I was there watching Kareem and Magic and the Lakers as a kid at the time...Magic was clearly the leader of the Lakers hands down...Kareem could put up numbers because he had the hook and Magic got him the ball all the time...but Magic was clearly the most important cog from '82 on...unless you watched it, you wouldn't know..[B]the poster who said the Lakers were Kareem's team until '87...what ARE you smokin?[/B] :pimp:[/QUOTE]

I was that poster. There is something that you and Pointguard seem to be missing. I never once claimed that Kareem was the leader until 1987. I stated and highlighted in my post many times that the[B][U] public perception[/U][/B] was that Kareem was leader until that point.

[QUOTE=jlip]I was that poster. There is something that you and Pointguard seem to be missing. I never once claimed that Kareem was the leader until 1987. I stated and highlighted in my post many times that the[B][U] public perception[/U][/B] was that Kareem was leader until that point.[/QUOTE]

I don't really think so. Of course the "company line" was. But that was just to appease KAJ. Everyone in the Laker organization knew where their bread was really buttered, though.

To continue to put this thread in more context, Bird was being hounded by the Pistons (Rodman, etc.), Bobby Jones, and Michael Cooper every playoff series.
These are not just some of the best defenders of their time, but of all time...game after game, series after series.

Example:
[url]http://articles.latimes.com/1987-12-12/sports/sp-6653_1_michael-cooper[/url]

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]To continue to put this thread in more context, Bird was being hounded by the Pistons (Rodman, etc.), Bobby Jones, and Michael Cooper every playoff series.
These are not just some of the best defenders of their time, but of all time...game after game, series after series.

Example:
[url]http://articles.latimes.com/1987-12-12/sports/sp-6653_1_michael-cooper[/url][/QUOTE]

Coop...the "Bird-hunter"...

BTW, I get a kick out of those that claim that Magic was a defensive liability. He led the NBA in spg twice, as well as the post-season twice.

And, BTW, who could guard him at the other end?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I get so sick-and-tired of using QUOTES. Hell, for the longest time people like Simmons were quoting West and Barry as blasting Wilt. Hmmm...now we have interviews in which they have both claimed that Wilt was the most dominant player to have ever played the game.

And the reality is, I could waste my time, and look up SI articles after Magic won his first, and then his third FMVP. There were those that were already proclaiming him as the best player in the league at that time. And he was.

Again, Bird had more MVP votes in the regular seasons from '80 thru '82, but only because KAJ was taking votes away from Magic. And after the numerous playoff flops that Bird had in his first four seasons (even in a Finals series win), no one in their right mind would have taken him over Magic in terms of playoff dominance.

And even Bird's "three-peat MVP's" were blown to shreds by Magic in 1985. Again, Bird was the FIFTH best player in that series, and McHale was easily the better player on his own team.

And after '87. Well, not even close.

In terms of overall career resumes, Magic is well ahead of Bird.

As for Kareem vs Magic. MAGIC outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting, EVERY season from 81-82 on. Everyone, including RILEY, knew it was MAGIC who was carrying those teams. Don't kid yourself. He was being kind to "Cap", but clearly, Magic was the architect of those FIVE titles.[/QUOTE]

Please do waste your time LAZERUSS and post SI articles that say Magic is clearly better than Bird OR Kareem prior to the 86-87 season. And not based off of hype related to one game like "after scoring 45 points last night, Magic is the best player in the game". Of course most posters here would agree that Bird > Magic for the first seven years of their careers.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]When Magic was given the Franchise contract, he was like management because the contract was for 25 years, and he worked toward not alienating Kareem - Kareem was pretty good at that his whole life. Kareem got upset with the Franchise player and went to the franchise to complain (even threatened to leave the team) about Magic's franchise contract. Kareem amazingly didn't know he was an outsider. Magic always took the high road and brought Kareem in. Didn't say Kareem was a jerk for that move and never griped with Kareem and looked out for him his whole stay. Magic knew he had the franchises ear but never exercised it on Kareem. If it was one or the other Magic knew he had the balance of power and was the franchise.[/QUOTE]

Sure the Lakers organization went out of their way to appease Magic. He was young entering his prime and he was the one selling tickets. Popularity and stage of career has much much more to do with that than "Kareem's attitude". You do know that Magic got his coach fired in the '81 offseason? You do know that he clashed with Nixon for touches in their early years together?

[QUOTE]All the people that mattered knew it was Magic's team. The franchise, the players and the coaches. Some parts of the media may not have known. To appease the franchise Magic co-opted Kareem to bring in his tremendous talent. And Magic featured Kareem and always tended to his fragile ego much more than any player I can think of.[/QUOTE]

Kareem's fragile ego? Please explain. What did Kareem do to undermine his team ever? Seriously I don't know and you might be on to something but I've never heard about it.

[QUOTE][B]As an individual player Kareem was better. As a team player and winner he wasn't close to Magic.[/B] Nothing stands up and says that. 8 years and he fails to prove more than once that he has it. Rick Barry's chip was way more impressive than Kareem's. Aging Dandridge and Hayes did was more impressive than what Kareem did in the 70's. Throw Gus Williams chip in there too as being more impressive as well. And those guys don't make an allstar team in any year in the 80's. But Magic wins it when HOF's MJ, Bird, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Doc, Isiah, Hakeem, Barkley, McHale, Parrish, Stockton and Drexler.[/QUOTE]

Situations man...

You realize that Kareem's supporting cast was totally decimated by injuries in '72, '74, and '77 when his team was a contender? You do realize that from the 73-74 season to 78-79 season he didn't have a single teammate make an all-star team or all-defensive selection?

Look at the '74 Bucks playoff roster (with Allen DNP and Oscar on his last legs both figuratively and literally!) and tell me with a straight face that they were supposed to even have a chance vs. Boston.

And if you think what Hayes and Barry did is more impressive than what Kareem did in '71 (or '80 for that matter) then I don't really know what to say.

Look at this quote by Bill Walton about Kareem. And he's isn't exactly some joe schmoe but one of the biggest basketball minds ever to set foot on the court.

"I lived to play against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He was the greatest player I ever played against, by far. Better than Jordan. Better than Magic. better than Bird. Better than Dr. J. Better than the best of the best that I played against. Better than Rick Barry. He was my source of motivation for everything I ever did. Everything I did was to try to beat this guy. I lived to play against him, and I played my best ball against him. No matter what I threw at him, though, it seemed like he'd score 50 against me. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian. And it wasn't just offense. He was a great defender and rebounder, a great passer, a wonderful leader. He was phenomenal. " - [B]Bill Walton[/B]

[QUOTE]No way does Magic get less than three rings in the 70's two would have been a disappointment. Magic could win it when real greats were playing. Kareem was the best player for a good ten years before Magic and it was the most opportunistic time to win a chip.
[/QUOTE]

The 70's were a brutal era to win a ring. Just because there were no dynasties doesn't mean it was weak. It just wasn't top-heavy but there were many great teams.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
BTW, I get a kick out of those that claim that Magic was a defensive liability. He led the NBA in spg twice, as well as the post-season twice.[/QUOTE]

Yea because steals are a great indicator of defense... :banghead:

I just have to laugh at those that continue to protect Bird in these discussions. Magic was the better player...plain-and-simple. And for those that claim that Magic had better supporting casts,...just how in the hell did Magic take the 89-90 Lakers to a 63-19 record, and then follow that up by taking an injury-riddle roster that was in state of rapid decline, to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals in his last season?

The reality was, Bird had at least the equal of Magic in terms of supporting rosters. He was playing alongside THREE to FOUR other HOFers every season in his career.

And let's dispense with this "tougher" Eastern Conference nonsense right now. In '80 and '82, the Lakers easily beat the 76ers. Hell, they won a clinching game, in a rout, on the road, and without KAJ for cryingoutloud. Yet, those two teams were continually battling each other in series that were decided by 1-2 points. Clearly, it would have made no difference had LA been in the East.

I'll agree that the '83 Sixers were arguably the best team of the decade (although the '87 Lakers are right there), but Boston didn't even face them. They were busy choking away a sweeping loss to the under-dog Bucks in that post-season. And here is a good question while we are at it. How many titles does Moses win with a good supporting cast from '79 thru '83? He was just waxing a helpless KAJ in all of those seasons...and even in the playoffs with half the surrounding talent.

BTW, for those that argue that the '86 Celtics were the best team of the decade...it is just too bad that LA stumbled against the Rockets that post-season. The reality was, the '84 Lakers HANDED the Finals to Boston. By even Bird's own admission, LA should have SWEPT Boston that year (and yes, they should have.) In '85, after KAJ awoke from his slumber in game one, the Lakers overpowered Boston winning four of the next five, including a massacre in LA, and a solid clinching road win in Boston. And in '87, the Lakers won three games in which they had 20+ point leads, and another in Boston, on a Magic mini-hook (while Bird choked yet again with a brick at the buzzer.) IMHO, the Lakers from '84 thru '87 were CLEARLY the better team. And yes, Magic was the better player (despite Bird winning three straight MVPs.)

Magic was better H2H (and could have scored much more had he so chosen...hell, he had the TWO highest scoring games in their H2H's.) He was CLEARLY a better player in post-season...again, Bird had a slight edge in '81, '84, and solid edge in '86...Magic had an overwhelming edge in '80, '82, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91. In their H2H's there were times where Bird was only the FIFTH best player on the floor, and not even the best player on his own team.

And I have posted the MANY post-season "choke jobs" that Bird put up. Needless to say, he lost SEVEN times with HCA. But not only that, he had SEVERAL AWFUL performances in them, as well. It is one thing to lose in a playoff series, it is quite another to blow chunks all over the floor in the process.

So, one more damned time...Magic >>> Bird.

[QUOTE=dankok8]
Sure the Lakers organization went out of their way to appease Magic. He was young entering his prime and he was the one selling tickets. Popularity and stage of career has much much more to do with that than "Kareem's attitude". You do know that Magic got his coach fired in the '81 offseason? You do know that he clashed with Nixon for touches in their early years together? [/quote]
The Laker's organization got Kareem just as he entered what is the usual prime for a center 28 years old. Why didn't he get that type of franchise contract? Trust me it, Magic was in operation for the franchise in all of his early moves, especially with Westhead who was more tolerable than Kareem. Nixon and Magic by nature could not co-exist together as he ran the team differently than Magic and Magic, who supposedly couldn't tolerate a nice coach, tolerated another point guard who was contrary to him stylistically on the team for three years, and Kareem who goes to management about him.
[quote]
Kareem's fragile ego? Please explain. What did Kareem do to undermine his team ever? Seriously I don't know and you might be on to something but I've never heard about it. [/quote]
Kareem went to management about Magic's contract and threatened to leave the team. And trust me, back then this was totally uncool and not old school. One might expect the spoil brats of today to do that but back then you just didn't do that. He was real sensitive about the criticism he received about not hustling and the movie airplane even has several jokes about it.
[quote]
Situations man...

You realize that Kareem's supporting cast was totally decimated by injuries in '72, '74, and '77 when his team was a contender? You do realize that from the 73-74 season to 78-79 season he didn't have a single teammate make an all-star team or all-defensive selection? [/quote]
Winner's find a way particularly in times when others are doing it alone and teams were weak for five years. It was the time of opportunity. Rick Barry didn't have any of those benefits you described above either. Hayes on the downside of his career didn't have that benefit either. I don't think Jack Sikma had one either.
[quote]
Look at the '74 Bucks playoff roster (with Allen DNP and Oscar on his last legs both figuratively and literally!) and tell me with a straight face that they were supposed to even have a chance vs. Boston.

And if you think what Hayes and Barry did is more impressive than what Kareem did in '71 (or '80 for that matter) then I don't really know what to say. [/quote]
More impressive in terms of their ability to win it all without a top ten GOAT next to them. And I'm talking about their decade accomplishment, not that year cause Kareem was much better than them stat wise every year without doubt. But they won it all without an Oscar Robinson (a guy that Kareem says could probably beat himself and Jordan one on one), Goodrich or a prime Danderidge, or a vet team of years together of Nixon, Dantley, Allen with seasoned champs Wilkes and Cazzie. Teams back then were rarely as seasoned except the Celtics who weren't competing in the later part of the year.
[quote]

"I lived to play against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He was the greatest player I ever played against, by far. Better than Jordan. Better than Magic. better than Bird. Better than Dr. J. Better than the best of the best that I played against. Better than Rick Barry. He was my source of motivation for everything I ever did. Everything I did was to try to beat this guy. I lived to play against him, and I played my best ball against him. No matter what I threw at him, though, it seemed like he'd score 50 against me. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian. And it wasn't just offense. He was a great defender and rebounder, a great passer, a wonderful leader. He was phenomenal. " - [B]Bill Walton[/B] [/quote]
He wasn't better than Jordan as an individual player and this isn't questionable, not better than Magic or Bird as a team player. Like I said the game was decentralized before Wallton came up or when Wilt left the game. Walton also has Magic ahead of Bird.

[quote]
The 70's were a brutal era to win a ring. Just because there were no dynasties doesn't mean it was weak. It just wasn't top-heavy but there were many great teams.
[/quote]
Great enough that Barry could win it with teams worse than Kareem and Hayes could win it all in similar fashion. After '74 there were no consistent winners in the '70's. That's the time to assert yourself when its open like that. There is no five year span, '75 thru '79, where there is a greater opportunity to win a ring since '55 and maybe beyond that.
[quote]
Yea because steals are a great indicator of defense... :banghead:[/QUOTE]
Steals, after the game was decentralized on Kareem's watch, are more valuable than blocks are. A steal is a turnover and usually, when Magic did it, two points or three points on the other end. A block, unless its a Wilt/Russell block, is more than likely NOT a turnover, much less two or three points. As a value statement Magic's steals were one of the biggest defensive plays there was. Not only could it be a five point turn around but it was demoralizing and kept the offensive team on their heels. The other team took less chances and played more reserved because of fear of Magic's running ability. Magic affected offenses in ways that if you understand the game, were pretty thorough. And this is definitely under defense:

Like I said in another thread about the '85 finals. The reason the Celtic backcourt shot 20% and had seven turnovers while playing conservatively and nearly maxed out their fouls, was because of their responsibilities to contain Magic. Magic had totally devastated their backcourt and contributed to why Bird missed 17 shots. A lot of players could not play Magic's pace.

If Kareem was ever to meet Magic in a series, in the 80's, Magic would trashed his team because Magic would have ran him into the ground or picked apart the four on five.

[B]Lazeruss has over 2400 posts (with that account only, not even counting alts or past accounts) and all of them are about Wilt somehow, all of them to fit his crazy agenda (Magic better than Bird, Magic #1 not Kareem, Wilt better than Kareem), making the most outlandish and ignorant arguments again and again, even if nobody takes him seriously anymore.. How crazy is that? Furthermore, he even goes against his main goal, he makes people hate Wilt (or hate more) with his ridiculous, even I am starting to dislike Wilt in a way lol and I was always a fan.
Really sad and ridiculous, no point of arguing anymore. This dude can write the biggest essays and all, doesn't even have a life outside of trying to hail Wilt as a god. Again, sad and ridiculous, not point in going forward.[/B]

[QUOTE]Sure the Lakers organization went out of their way to appease Magic. He was young entering his prime and he was the one selling tickets. Popularity and stage of career has much much more to do with that than "Kareem's attitude".[B] You do know that Magic got his coach fired in the '81 offseason? You do know that he clashed with Nixon for touches in their early years together[/B]?[/QUOTE]

:roll:

Magic got Westhead fired? You better do some more research, my friend...

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson[/url]

[QUOTE]In 1981, after the 1980

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Lazeruss has over 2400 posts (with that account only, not even counting alts or past accounts) and all of them are about Wilt somehow, all of them to fit his crazy agenda (Magic better than Bird, Magic #1 not Kareem, Wilt better than Kareem), making the most outlandish and ignorant arguments again and again, even if nobody takes him seriously anymore.. How crazy is that? Furthermore, he even goes against his main goal, he makes people hate Wilt (or hate more) with his ridiculous, even I am starting to dislike Wilt in a way lol and I was always a fan.
Really sad and ridiculous, no point of arguing anymore. This dude can write the biggest essays and all, doesn't even have a life outside of trying to hail Wilt as a god. Again, sad and ridiculous, not point in going forward.[/B][/QUOTE]


First of all, what are my other "alts?"

Secondly, evidently you haven't read any of the MANY other posts on topics like Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Love, Hakeem, Duncan, Moses, players from the 60's, great teams, and the MANY in which I have praised KAJ. In fact, I could probably go one for hours.

And no, you are no more of a "Wilt" fan than Dankok8 is a "Magic" fan.

And again, give me some actual research with legitimate arguments in any of these "discussions" instead of your mindless and endless OPINIONS.

NOT one person here has given me or anyone else ANY proof, which shows that a 76-77 KAJ was more at his PEAK, than a '70 thru '72 KAJ. NONE. Show me his statistical advantages. Show me his defensive impact. Give me that DOMINANCE that a YOUNG Kareem shredded the NBA with. Hell, even inhis ROOKIE season, he had the HIGHEST scoring POST-SEASON of his career, and it included a series against the reigning MVP. Then reality was, Kareem was FAR more dominant in those years in EVERY aspect of his game, including defense and TEAM success.

As for these RIDICULOUS Bird-Magic discussions...H2H's, TEAM SUCCESS, playoff H2H's, MVPs, FMVPs, overall post-season play...MAGIC, and by a MILE.

Now, get on with your life, and find something else in which you might actually be good at.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I just have to laugh at those that continue to protect Bird in these discussions. Magic was the better player...plain-and-simple. And for those that claim that Magic had better supporting casts,...just how in the hell did Magic take the 89-90 Lakers to a 63-19 record, and then follow that up by taking an injury-riddle roster that was in state of rapid decline, to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals in his last season?

The reality was, Bird had at least the equal of Magic in terms of supporting rosters. He was playing alongside THREE to FOUR other HOFers every season in his career.

And let's dispense with this "tougher" Eastern Conference nonsense right now. In '80 and '82, the Lakers easily beat the 76ers. Hell, they won a clinching game, in a rout, on the road, and without KAJ for cryingoutloud. Yet, those two teams were continually battling each other in series that were decided by 1-2 points. Clearly, it would have made no difference had LA been in the East.

I'll agree that the '83 Sixers were arguably the best team of the decade (although the '87 Lakers are right there), but Boston didn't even face them. They were busy choking away a sweeping loss to the under-dog Bucks in that post-season. And here is a good question while we are at it. How many titles does Moses win with a good supporting cast from '79 thru '83? He was just waxing a helpless KAJ in all of those seasons...and even in the playoffs with half the surrounding talent.

BTW, for those that argue that the '86 Celtics were the best team of the decade...it is just too bad that LA stumbled against the Rockets that post-season. The reality was, the '84 Lakers HANDED the Finals to Boston. By even Bird's own admission, LA should have SWEPT Boston that year (and yes, they should have.) In '85, after KAJ awoke from his slumber in game one, the Lakers overpowered Boston winning four of the next five, including a massacre in LA, and a solid clinching road win in Boston. And in '87, the Lakers won three games in which they had 20+ point leads, and another in Boston, on a Magic mini-hook (while Bird choked yet again with a brick at the buzzer.) IMHO, the Lakers from '84 thru '87 were CLEARLY the better team. And yes, Magic was the better player (despite Bird winning three straight MVPs.)

Magic was better H2H (and could have scored much more had he so chosen...hell, he had the TWO highest scoring games in their H2H's.) He was CLEARLY a better player in post-season...again, Bird had a slight edge in '81, '84, and solid edge in '86...Magic had an overwhelming edge in '80, '82, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91. In their H2H's there were times where Bird was only the FIFTH best player on the floor, and not even the best player on his own team.

And I have posted the MANY post-season "choke jobs" that Bird put up. Needless to say, he lost SEVEN times with HCA. But not only that, he had SEVERAL AWFUL performances in them, as well. It is one thing to lose in a playoff series, it is quite another to blow chunks all over the floor in the process.

So, one more damned time...Magic >>> Bird.[/QUOTE]

I agree the teammate argument is weak. Bird's teams certainly had a lot more defensive talent than Magic's so it evens out.

The conference argument holds water though. Magic could cruise through the playoffs busting weak teams while Bird had to fight for his life just to make the finals. His Celtics teams were often bruised and injured facing the Lakers.

If you think Magic > Bird from '84 to '86 period that's a big problem though. Bird was a monster in those 3 consecutive postseasons. He had a slight drop in the '85 Finals because of injury but overall it's no contest. Bird won 3 straight MVP's as well.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]The Laker's organization got Kareem just as he entered what is the usual prime for a center 28 years old. Why didn't he get that type of franchise contract? Trust me it, Magic was in operation for the franchise in all of his early moves, especially with Westhead who was more tolerable than Kareem. Nixon and Magic by nature could not co-exist together as he ran the team differently than Magic and Magic, who supposedly couldn't tolerate a nice coach, tolerated another point guard who was contrary to him stylistically on the team for three years, and Kareem who goes to management about him.

Kareem went to management about Magic's contract and threatened to leave the team. And trust me, back then this was totally uncool and not old school. One might expect the spoil brats of today to do that but back then you just didn't do that. He was real sensitive about the criticism he received about not hustling and the movie airplane even has several jokes about it.[/QUOTE]

What does that prove? That Kareem was a dick that he was upset about the contract situation? I don't recall ever reading that he threatened to leave or anything like that.

And by the way he was more than happy to give Magic the green light in the 86-87 season and take a step back. Kareem was a pretty freaking unselfish player.

[QUOTE]Winner's find a way particularly in times when others are doing it alone and teams were weak for five years. It was the time of opportunity. Rick Barry didn't have any of those benefits you described above either. Hayes on the downside of his career didn't have that benefit either. I don't think Jack Sikma had one either.[/QUOTE]

Barry's title was a fluke. Which other great player led a clearly underdog team to a title? Dirk in 2011? So about twice in almost 60 years since the merger... Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt etc. never did it either.

[QUOTE]More impressive in terms of their ability to win it all without a top ten GOAT next to them. And I'm talking about their decade accomplishment, not that year cause Kareem was much better than them stat wise every year without doubt. But they won it all without an Oscar Robinson (a guy that Kareem says could probably beat himself and Jordan one on one), Goodrich or a prime Danderidge, or a vet team of years together of Nixon, Dantley, Allen with seasoned champs Wilkes and Cazzie. Teams back then were rarely as seasoned except the Celtics who weren't competing in the later part of the year.[/QUOTE]

Oscar in '71 was WAY REMOVED from his peak years. He was very good still but not on that level. And then in '72 WCF vs. LA and '74 Finals vs. Boston he was a shell of himself.

[QUOTE]He wasn't better than Jordan as an individual player and this isn't questionable, not better than Magic or Bird as a team player. Like I said the game was decentralized before Wallton came up or when Wilt left the game. Walton also has Magic ahead of Bird.[/QUOTE]

Kareem's 70-73 stretch can go up against any player statistically and impact-wise. His playoff performances in his prime and overall resume can also stack up to anybody.

Kareem is definitely a Tier 1 player with a strong case for GOAT. I'm not saying he is GOAT but he's in the discussion along with Jordan and Russell IMO. Quite honestly I refuse to tank those 3 in any order. It's so difficult and they reach proved their GOAT status differently.

[QUOTE]Great enough that Barry could win it with teams worse than Kareem and Hayes could win it all in similar fashion. After '74 there were no consistent winners in the '70's. That's the time to assert yourself when its open like that. There is no five year span, '75 thru '79, where there is a greater opportunity to win a ring since '55 and maybe beyond that.[/QUOTE]

Elvin Hayes had Wes Unseld and Bob Dandridge in their absolute primes and a strong well-rounded cast. Sikma in Seattle had the best backcourt in the league. Ever heard of Gus Williams, Dennis Johnson, and "Downtown" Freddie Brown. They combined for 60+ ppg against Kareem's Lakers in the '78 and '79 playoffs and completely obliterated the LA backcourt.
[QUOTE]
Steals, after the game was decentralized on Kareem's watch, are more valuable than blocks are. A steal is a turnover and usually, when Magic did it, two points or three points on the other end. A block, unless its a Wilt/Russell block, is more than likely NOT a turnover, much less two or three points. As a value statement Magic's steals were one of the biggest defensive plays there was. Not only could it be a five point turn around but it was demoralizing and kept the offensive team on their heels. The other team took less chances and played more reserved because of fear of Magic's running ability. Magic affected offenses in ways that if you understand the game, were pretty thorough. And this is definitely under defense:[/QUOTE]

Sure that's true but you're quite alone in any assertion that Magic was a good let alone great defender.

[QUOTE]Like I said in another thread about the '85 finals. The reason the Celtic backcourt shot 20% and had seven turnovers while playing conservatively and nearly maxed out their fouls, was because of their responsibilities to contain Magic. Magic had totally devastated their backcourt and contributed to why Bird missed 17 shots. A lot of players could not play Magic's pace. [/QUOTE]

Magic had impact but in '85 he wasn't clearly better than Kareem. In the Finals Kareem was definitely better.

[QUOTE]If Kareem was ever to meet Magic in a series, in the 80's, Magic would trashed his team because Magic would have ran him into the ground or picked apart the four on five.[/QUOTE]

A team led by prime Kareem would be way better on defense and on the boards. Honestly they probably would cream Magic's team assuming equal talent. So would Wilt's, Shaq's, and Hakeem's teams. Big men have more impact.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]First of all, what are my other "alts?"

Secondly, evidently you haven't read any of the MANY other posts on topics like Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Love, Hakeem, Duncan, Moses, players from the 60's, great teams, and the MANY in which I have praised KAJ. In fact, I could probably go one for hours.

And no, you are no more of a "Wilt" fan than Dankok8 is a "Magic" fan.

And again, give me some actual research with legitimate arguments in any of these "discussions" instead of your mindless and endless OPINIONS.

NOT one person here has given me or anyone else ANY proof, which shows that a 76-77 KAJ was more at his PEAK, than a '70 thru '72 KAJ. NONE. Show me his statistical advantages. Show me his defensive impact. Give me that DOMINANCE that a YOUNG Kareem shredded the NBA with. Hell, even inhis ROOKIE season, he had the HIGHEST scoring POST-SEASON of his career, and it included a series against the reigning MVP. Then reality was, Kareem was FAR more dominant in those years in EVERY aspect of his game, including defense and TEAM success.

As for these RIDICULOUS Bird-Magic discussions...H2H's, TEAM SUCCESS, playoff H2H's, MVPs, FMVPs, overall post-season play...MAGIC, and by a MILE.

Now, get on with your life, and find something else in which you might actually be good at.[/QUOTE]

Magic is my favorite all-time player. I believe his 86-87 peak is among the greatest in history and his '87 Finals is maybe the greatest offensive/all-around title series performance ever. Nobody was a more effective or creative passer in league history and at his peak Magic had a damn fine half-court game.

However Magic >> Bird is revisionist history. As is this notion that Magic was clearly better than Kareem before 86-87. Not the case... I love Magic but I don't let my personal bias come in the way. You don't realize it most likely but you cherry-pick stats that suit you and ignore other data that doesn't not further your point. For example let's talk about Bird's '81 series vs. Philly, numerous series vs. the Bucks (except '83), '84 and '86 Finals, '88 series vs. Atlanta. Guess they never happened huh?

[QUOTE=dankok8]I agree the teammate argument is weak. Bird's teams certainly had a lot more defensive talent than Magic's so it evens out.

The conference argument holds water though. Magic could cruise through the playoffs busting weak teams while Bird had to fight for his life just to make the finals. His Celtics teams were often bruised and injured facing the Lakers.

If you think Magic > Bird from '84 to '86 period that's a big problem though. Bird was a monster in those 3 consecutive postseasons. He had a slight drop in the '85 Finals because of injury but overall it's no contest. Bird won 3 straight MVP's as well.[/QUOTE]

Even if I were to concede '84 thru '86, Magic was still the better player the rest of their careers.

But just for the record, here were Magic's stats (which, of course, don't come close to true impact)...

83-84: 17.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 13.1 apg, .565 FG%, .810 FT%, .628 TS%
84-85: 18.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.6 apg, .561 FG%, .843 FT%, .637 TS%
85-86: 18.8 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 12.6 apg, .526 FG%, .871 FT%, .610 TS%

Post-season:

83-84: 18.2 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 13.5 apg, .551 FG%, .800 FT%, .601 TS%
84-85: 17.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.2 apg, .513 FG%, .847 FT%, .599 TS%
85-86: 21.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.1 apg, .537 FG%, .766 FT%, .599 TS%

And I would argue that he had better seasons, and post-seasons, in his career, as well.

As a sidenote, he would have had a monster year in 80-81 had he not been injured.

21.6 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 8.6 apg (and not even the fulltime PG, either), .532 FG%, .760 FT%, and a .582 TS% (and he would have led the league in spg at 3.4.)

[QUOTE]However Magic >> Bird is revisionist history. As is this notion that Magic was clearly better than Kareem before 86-87. Not the case... I love Magic but I don't let my personal bias come in the way. You don't realize it most likely but you cherry-pick stats that suit you and ignore other data that doesn't not further your point. For example let's talk about Bird's '81 series vs. Philly, numerous series vs. the Bucks (except '83), '84 and '86 Finals, '88 series vs. Atlanta. Guess they never happened huh?[/QUOTE]

Again, including the post-season, and Magic was better than Bird from '80 thru '83 (and I will give you Bird's disgraceful Finals in '81.)

And, including the post-season, Magic was better in '85. No question.

So, Bird was better, using FULL seasons, in '81 (just barely), '84 (just barely), and '86 (solidly.) Magic routs him in every other season.

KAJ was still a great offensive player up until '85-86. After that he was role player, and Magic would have won rings in both '87 and '88 without him. But, Magic COULD have been a dominant scorer from '80 thru '86 had been tasked with it. There are just too many games which clearly show that capability, including a clinching game six, without KAJ, of 42 points, in his ROOKIE season.

And, again, Magic outvoted KAJ in the MVP balloting in their last EIGHT seasons together. And, because of KAJ, it cost Magic in the MVP voting overall throughout the 80's. But everyone in the NBA, AND the Laker organization KNEW that Magic was clearly the Lakers best player. Why? Because he made EVERY player on those team's better.

Sorry, but KAJ road Magic's coat-tails to FIVE NBA titles, with only '80 as a legitimate claim to a "co-title." Even his '85 Finals was overshadowed by Magic's PLAYOFF dominance that season. And it was no coincidence that when Magic arrived, LA immediately became a champion, and were still 60+ winners after Kareem retired, but, when Magic retired, LA immediately dropped to seasons of 43-39 and 39-43.

Magic would have been winning titles in the 80's without Kareem. But there is simply no way KAJ would have won any without Magic.

Magic was 3 years younger than Bird and outplayed Peak Bird in two out of 3 finals.

Go ahead and post the 3 finals averages...Magic blows him out of the water.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Magic was 3 years younger than Bird and outplayed Peak Bird in two out of 3 finals.

Go ahead and post the 3 finals averages...Magic blows him out of the water.[/QUOTE]

No need. In the post-season Magic had higher peaks, longer peaks, didn't choke nearly as often, had more team success, outplayed him H2H, and was clearly better in nine of those 12 post-seasons.

[QUOTE=navy]Why do [B]white people[/B] say Bird was better than Magic?[/QUOTE]




fixed.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]No need. In the post-season Magic had higher peaks, longer peaks, didn't choke nearly as often, had more team success, outplayed him H2H, and was clearly better in nine of those 12 post-seasons.[/QUOTE]

Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
Even if I were to concede '84 thru '86, Magic was still the better player the rest of their careers.

But just for the record, here were Magic's stats (which, of course, don't come close to true impact)...

83-84: 17.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 13.1 apg, .565 FG%, .810 FT%, .628 TS%
84-85: 18.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.6 apg, .561 FG%, .843 FT%, .637 TS%
85-86: 18.8 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 12.6 apg, .526 FG%, .871 FT%, .610 TS%

Post-season:

83-84: 18.2 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 13.5 apg, .551 FG%, .800 FT%, .601 TS%
84-85: 17.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.2 apg, .513 FG%, .847 FT%, .599 TS%
85-86: 21.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.1 apg, .537 FG%, .766 FT%, .599 TS%

And I would argue that he had better seasons, and post-seasons, in his career, as well.

As a sidenote, he would have had a monster year in 80-81 had he not been injured.

21.6 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 8.6 apg (and not even the fulltime PG, either), .532 FG%, .760 FT%, and a .582 TS% (and he would have led the league in spg at 3.4.)[/QUOTE]

Magic had nice stats and good impact on top of that but Bird did a lot outside of stats as well.

[QUOTE]Again, including the post-season, and Magic was better than Bird from '80 thru '83 (and I will give you Bird's disgraceful Finals in '81.)

And, including the post-season, Magic was better in '85. No question.

So, Bird was better, using FULL seasons, in '81 (just barely), '84 (just barely), and '86 (solidly.) Magic routs him in every other season.

KAJ was still a great offensive player up until '85-86. After that he was role player, and Magic would have won rings in both '87 and '88 without him. But, Magic COULD have been a dominant scorer from '80 thru '86 had been tasked with it. There are just too many games which clearly show that capability, including a clinching game six, without KAJ, of 42 points, in his ROOKIE season.

And, again, Magic outvoted KAJ in the MVP balloting in their last EIGHT seasons together. And, because of KAJ, it cost Magic in the MVP voting overall throughout the 80's. But everyone in the NBA, AND the Laker organization KNEW that Magic was clearly the Lakers best player. Why? Because he made EVERY player on those team's better.

Sorry, but KAJ road Magic's coat-tails to FIVE NBA titles, with only '80 as a legitimate claim to a "co-title." Even his '85 Finals was overshadowed by Magic's PLAYOFF dominance that season. And it was no coincidence that when Magic arrived, LA immediately became a champion, and were still 60+ winners after Kareem retired, but, when Magic retired, LA immediately dropped to seasons of 43-39 and 39-43.

Magic would have been winning titles in the 80's without Kareem. But there is simply no way KAJ would have won any without Magic.
[/QUOTE]

You give way too much weight to Game 6 of the '80 Finals. It's just one game bro! It doesn't make him anywhere near as good as Kareem (or Bird) in that season.

And seriously you should concede the '84 to '86 period. Bird won 3 straight MVP's, easily outplayed Magic in the '84 Finals, and was slightly outplayed in the '85 Finals playing through injury. In the '85 postseason until Game 4 of the ECF when he got injured, Bird averaged 29/9/7 on 49% shooting. You don't like to rip Wilt when he's injured but you sure have no problem doing so to Bird. Be objective.

[B]And I like your double standards. Magic > Kareem in 1980 because of one spectacular game in the finals but Magic > Kareem in 1985 because he was better in the regular season. [/B]

Truth is Kareem was easily better than Magic in 1980 (everyone will tell you that...) and they were 1a/1b in 1985 with neither having a clear edge.

And as a minor point. Kareem wasn't a role player in '87. He put up 21/7 in the finals and had a monster closeout Game 6. Magic was EASILY BETTER than Jabbar that whole year but Kareem was an all-star C. I honestly don't think LA would have won without him. In '88 they probably could...

[QUOTE=dankok8]What does that prove? That Kareem was a dick that he was upset about the contract situation? I don't recall ever reading that he threatened to leave or anything like that. [/quote]
We were discussing whose team was it? If the franchise gave the key to Magic, if Kareem got very upset about them giving him the keys then its obvious that Kareem knows, does it really matter what the press thinks? To pretend like Pat Riley didn't know that his main decision maker and coach on the floor didn't know managements dynamics is a bit crazy. Do you really think that the franchise and coach didn't know whose team it was? Magic handled Kareem with kid gloves on.

[quote]
And by the way he was more than happy to give Magic the green light in the 86-87 season and take a step back. Kareem was a pretty freaking unselfish player. [/quote]
Not if you are comparing him to Magic. If Magic asserted himself and his power, he could have gotten rid of the guy that stood in the way of him scoring.

[quote]
Barry's title was a fluke. Which other great player led a clearly underdog team to a title? Dirk in 2011? So about twice in almost 60 years since the merger... Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt etc. never did it either. [/quote]
There were no consistent winners after '74. That's when stuff like that happens. Dallas was a lot like the Pistons in that they were a good team - best three point shooting team in the playoffs, best SF stand on defense ever, best SG defensive stand ever in the playoffs ever as well. There were other underdogs that won as well. What was rare with Barry was one offensive player doing that type of damage.

[quote]
Oscar in '71 was WAY REMOVED from his peak years. He was very good still but not on that level. And then in '72 WCF vs. LA and '74 Finals vs. Boston he was a shell of himself.
[/quote]
In '74 he wasn't himself but in 72 he is still one of the smartest players around and a great player. But Kareem had an unbelievable season that year and it was his most complete great year in every way.

[quote]
[B]Kareem's 70-73[/B] stretch can go up against any player statistically and impact-wise. His playoff performances in his prime and overall resume can also stack up to anybody. [/quote]
While I think his defense was better than Shaq's his impact wasn't on par as Shaq's '00 - '02. There was nothing left to be desired those years from Shaq and perhaps was the biggest earthquake splash we've seen. But even Shaq wasn't as dominant as Jordan's top three years. If you go performance wise Wilt's top three years were better too. If you go team wise Magic from '87 thru '89 would be better as no team ever looked better. And then Bird from '84-'86.
[quote]
Kareem is definitely a Tier 1 player with a strong case for GOAT. I'm not saying he is GOAT but he's in the discussion along with Jordan and Russell IMO. Quite honestly I refuse to tank those 3 in any order. It's so difficult and they reach proved their GOAT status differently.
[/quote]
I think Kareem has a case. But Jordan dominated a group of HOF centers, even one that was more dominant than Kareem, while Kareem had trouble with the few great ones (Mac and Moses) that came up in his prime. Magic was unquestionably the greatest winner in the most competitive era.


[quote]
Elvin Hayes had Wes Unseld and Bob Dandridge in their absolute primes and a strong well-rounded cast. Sikma in Seattle had the best backcourt in the league. Ever heard of Gus Williams, Dennis Johnson, and "Downtown" Freddie Brown. They combined for 60+ ppg against Kareem's Lakers in the '78 and '79 playoffs and completely obliterated the LA backcourt. [/quote]
You know full well I talked about Gus Williams and that DJ was one of the best clutch shooters in the 80's. When Magic came aboard that same Supersonic team was handed their heads. Must be that the game was more about the guards than it was about the center huh?
[quote]
Sure that's true but you're quite alone in any assertion that Magic was a good let alone great defender. [/quote]
A player with a great affect on three player's ability to make shots in an elimination game. As great a defensive affect as any one player in recent memory. This is with a super hot Bird and one of the most clutch players in the game missing at a 70% clip. If you don't call it defense, then give Magic his own category called control of game damage. It totally eliminated Bird
s, Ainge's and DJ's capacity to be effective.

[quote]
Magic had impact but in '85 he wasn't clearly better than Kareem. In the Finals Kareem was definitely better. [/quote]

Sorry but McHale pretty much cancelled out Kareem. He outrebounded him, shot pretty much the same percentage and outscored him. And Kareem was guarding him. Magic totally killed Boston on the run. He ran them to death. You rarely see a player ever average 14 assist per game on a great defensive team. All of the Laker's wins were by more than 10 points (game 2 ended up closer than what the game was ended) which is because Magic found the holes in the defense and gets all the easy baskets on the break. Worthy's high scoring is also very indicative of Magic's control. All of Magic's primary targets shot incredibly well against a top defensive team. You can go by who had the biggest numbers thing if you want to misunderstand the game. Those who know better, know that the game is won in how it is played.
[quote]
A team led by prime Kareem would be way better on defense and on the boards. Honestly they probably would cream Magic's team assuming equal talent. So would Wilt's, Shaq's, and Hakeem's teams. Big men have more impact.[/QUOTE]
In the '80 Magic is very close to outrebounding Kareem himself - were did you get that from? You don't know. During Kareem's watch the center position died down significantly. After Wilt left in 73 Kareem didn't win won ring without Magic or the seven years before Magic. Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing did not win a ring on prime Jordan's or Magic's healthy watch and they had about 30 chances between them. Shaq had better teammates than any contemporary, and Kobe still has more rings than him. If you take out the Kareem/Magic equation and Kobe/Shaq you only have two years of center position impact and those two years were loaned out by the GOAT.

Bird and Magic changed the game and made it so that if you are a smart skilled player (Kobe, Duncan, Lebron) you can have at least equal impact. Jordan proved to be GOAT. After Kareem's arrival, the game was shortly thereafter decentralized. Bird and Magic were the icing on the cake.

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.[/QUOTE]

I saw the vast majority of the Bird-Magic, Celtics-Lakers H2H's (as well as the entire NBA in the 80's.)

And I'm sorry, but Bird was nowhere the consensus better player from '80 thru '83. He edged Magic in the MVP voting, but Magic was hurt by two things, one, KAJ robbing votes from him; and two, he was blamed for the Westhead firing (which, as I pointed out, was imminent long before his flare up.) And, if you include the post-seasons, well, Magic ran away with being the best player in those four years.

Bird did win three straight MVPs, and while I would acknowledge that he deserved them, Magic's IMPACT was nearly equal. And, again, in the '85 post-season, Magic was definitely, and I mean definitely, the better player. Bird was only the FIFTH best player in that series, and McHale clearly was Boston's best player.

Of course, from '87 on Magic pulled away. Bird had his best regular season in '88, but then, as usual, gagged in the post-season. Meanwhile, Magic torched that same Piston team that had limited Bird. In fact, Magic was robbed in the MVP voting in that Finals, by Worthy.

It was not close. Not in terms of careers. I wouldn't even claim that a peak Bird was better than a peak Magic. Overall, and by a solid margin...MAGIC.

[QUOTE]And I like your double standards. Magic > Kareem in 1980 because of one spectacular game in the finals but Magic > Kareem in 1985 because he was better in the regular season. [/QUOTE]

Magic's 1980 Finals' numbers:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg (and SHARING the PG with Nixon), .573 FG%, and an .875 FT%.

And, he PLAYED in every game. I would argue that had Kareem not been on that team, that Magic would have been putting up 30+ point games in every game. Not saying that they would have won the series without KAJ, but Magic did prove that he could win a key game without him...and with a greater Finals game than Kareem EVER had in his 20 year career.

As for '85. KAJ deserved the FMVP. Magic was CLEARLY the Lakers PLAYOFF MVP.

[B]Damn, jlauber (with his alt too) getting owned time and time again, yet continue to post long-ass, ignorant essays :facepalm Sad while funny.[/B]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Damn, jlauber (with his alt too) getting owned time and time again, yet continue to post long-ass, ignorant essays :facepalm Sad while funny.[/B][/QUOTE]

Who is this "alt", and who is "owning me?"

jlauber? He is dead according to your alt, Millwad.

And have you read any of his posts here lately?

Goota love it. When someone agrees with me, they have to be an "alt."

You need to get find another hobby. Something that doesn't require any knowledge.

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.[/QUOTE]

the Bird / Magic discussion deserves this kind of comment...finally something worthy to read on ISH.
i just read 5 pages of agendas, people using stupid "arguments", comparing numbers :face palm please let that to the kids.

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Damn, jlauber (with his alt too) getting owned time and time again, yet continue to post long-ass, ignorant essays :facepalm Sad while funny.[/B][/QUOTE]

Getting "owned?"

I don't see too many folks here claiming that Bird was greater than Magic. "Most people..."

BTW, all I have read from your research is EXCUSES for Bird's POOR play in the MAJORITY of his post-seasons. Magic had excuses too, (like '81), but overall, didn't need ANY.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]We were discussing whose team was it? If the franchise gave the key to Magic, if Kareem got very upset about them giving him the keys then its obvious that Kareem knows, does it really matter what the press thinks? To pretend like Pat Riley didn't know that his main decision maker and coach on the floor didn't know managements dynamics is a bit crazy. Do you really think that the franchise and coach didn't know whose team it was? Magic handled Kareem with kid gloves on.


Not if you are comparing him to Magic. If Magic asserted himself and his power, he could have gotten rid of the guy that stood in the way of him scoring.


There were no consistent winners after '74. That's when stuff like that happens. Dallas was a lot like the Pistons in that they were a good team - best three point shooting team in the playoffs, best SF stand on defense ever, best SG defensive stand ever in the playoffs ever as well. There were other underdogs that won as well. What was rare with Barry was one offensive player doing that type of damage.


In '74 he wasn't himself but in 72 he is still one of the smartest players around and a great player. But Kareem had an unbelievable season that year and it was his most complete great year in every way.


While I think his defense was better than Shaq's his impact wasn't on par as Shaq's '00 - '02. There was nothing left to be desired those years from Shaq and perhaps was the biggest earthquake splash we've seen. But even Shaq wasn't as dominant as Jordan's top three years. If you go performance wise Wilt's top three years were better too. If you go team wise Magic from '87 thru '89 would be better as no team ever looked better. And then Bird from '84-'86.

I think Kareem has a case. But Jordan dominated a group of HOF centers, even one that was more dominant than Kareem, while Kareem had trouble with the few great ones (Mac and Moses) that came up in his prime. Magic was unquestionably the greatest winner in the most competitive era.



You know full well I talked about Gus Williams and that DJ was one of the best clutch shooters in the 80's. When Magic came aboard that same Supersonic team was handed their heads. Must be that the game was more about the guards than it was about the center huh?

A player with a great affect on three player's ability to make shots in an elimination game. As great a defensive affect as any one player in recent memory. This is with a super hot Bird and one of the most clutch players in the game missing at a 70% clip. If you don't call it defense, then give Magic his own category called control of game damage. It totally eliminated Bird
s, Ainge's and DJ's capacity to be effective.



Sorry but McHale pretty much cancelled out Kareem. He outrebounded him, shot pretty much the same percentage and outscored him. And Kareem was guarding him. Magic totally killed Boston on the run. He ran them to death. You rarely see a player ever average 14 assist per game on a great defensive team. All of the Laker's wins were by more than 10 points (game 2 ended up closer than what the game was ended) which is because Magic found the holes in the defense and gets all the easy baskets on the break. Worthy's high scoring is also very indicative of Magic's control. All of Magic's primary targets shot incredibly well against a top defensive team. You can go by who had the biggest numbers thing if you want to misunderstand the game. Those who know better, know that the game is won in how it is played.

In the '80 Magic is very close to outrebounding Kareem himself - were did you get that from? You don't know. During Kareem's watch the center position died down significantly. After Wilt left in 73 Kareem didn't win won ring without Magic or the seven years before Magic. Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing did not win a ring on prime Jordan's or Magic's healthy watch and they had about 30 chances between them. Shaq had better teammates than any contemporary, and Kobe still has more rings than him. If you take out the Kareem/Magic equation and Kobe/Shaq you only have two years of center position impact and those two years were loaned out by the GOAT.

Bird and Magic changed the game and made it so that if you are a smart skilled player (Kobe, Duncan, Lebron) you can have at least equal impact. Jordan proved to be GOAT. After Kareem's arrival, the game was shortly thereafter decentralized. Bird and Magic were the icing on the cake.[/QUOTE]

kareem is overrated....but your post is laughable. you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

btw, bill Russell was better than wilt....no question about it.....wilt rebounded like a schoolgirl in the entire 60s and road jerry west's coattails....the lakers were better without wilt.....that's why in game 7 of the 1969 finals they made a run with him on the bench.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]kareem is overrated....but your post is laughable. you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

btw, bill Russell was better than wilt....no question about it.....wilt rebounded like a schoolgirl in the entire 60s and road jerry west's coattails....the lakers were better without wilt.....that's why in game 7 of the 1969 finals they made a run with him on the bench.[/QUOTE]

I honestly don't think there is one bit of truth to any of the above post. I could not find one point that was accurate.

Damn, I rate Bird way higher than most. Maybe I need to rewatch some tape.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Damn, I rate Bird way higher than most. Maybe I need to rewatch some tape.[/QUOTE]

Well, I can respect your opinion...even if I might disagree with it. But, I'm sure that you would at least be able to provide some actual research to back up your stance. Unfortunately, on this Forum, the majority of the Bird-lovers can only use opinions (and laced with EXCUSES), with absolutely nothing to back them up.

Pajaro es el major. Legend. Greatness. No injury and he is the best ever. Amazing. Never ever gonna be another Bird. watching him play is like ****ing a supermodel virgin. Nobody compares. Just ****ing sick.