Better floor leader: Jordan or Magic?

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]corrected!

With MJ, his offense was so beyond 100% that [B][U]his other capabilities got OVERSHADOWED unfortunately![/U][/B]

-His gambling defense (should've had atleast 2 DPOY titles, 1993 title is missing)

-His leadership skills (ask Kerr, Kukoc, Pippen, Phil Jackson, Tex winter)

-His intangibles were off the charts too.

[B]Magic & Bird got due credit for leadership cuz of their lack of athletic ability.

MJ was just as fantastic floor general but his unebelievable athletic ability & offensive powers OVERSHADOWED everything else particularly his Defensive capabilities which were terrific too. [/B][/QUOTE]

:no: [B]Geng I Know Your Favorite Player Ever Was Jordan But To Tell Me That Jordan was a Great Creator, Floor General, Team Player and Knew How To Visualize the Court For Team Play Naturally like Bird or Magic? Then You are Kidding Yourself. Its like Saying Barkley Was Not a Lazy Defender...Even I Admit To This.

Jordan Got Better as the Years Progressed But He Was Not in the Level of Magic and Bird in Those Skills. He Never Was. Thankgod Pippen Finally Played and Got the Role He Deserved With Phil Jackson Asking Jordan to Make him the Pointforward and Share the Ball With Him To Create Future Havoc On Court. It Took Jordan More Time Than Bird and Magic to Learn These Skills. Just Watch them Play and Compare the Level of Awareness Magic and Bird Had Was Jus In ANother Level.[/B]

This is a joke right? Magic Johnson. Jordan wasn't even the floor leader on the Bulls, Pippen was. Jordan didn't even become vocal until well into the 90s and what he was vocal about was being an asshole. Pippen was always the vocal leader on defense once the team started becoming dominant and he developed into the offensive floor leader when Jordan retired. There is numerous quotes of former Bulls saying how Pippen was the floor leader of the team.

Magic, not even close. The Jordan legend has grown to the point where people automatically say he's the best at every facet of the game, including points of the game that were his weakness. That was his biggest criticism for half of his career, he didn't lead guys, he didn't make guys better, he was all stats, ball hog. Magic was simply the best floor general to ever step on a court and the most charismatic leader. Magic was absolutely unique, not only in his playing style, but in his ability to be such a mean, nasty, tough competitor, while also constantly encouraging and pushing the guys on his team to be better. If only Kobe had some of Magic's quality... They were in the same situation, young player coming onto the team of a legendary big man in his relative prime, but where Kobe failed and ended up blowing up his relationship with Shaq, magic, just as alpha a personality as anyone, found a way to thrive with Kareem, all the way till his retirement. Magic was special. Jordan's gift was his unmatched intensity, determination and scoring prowess. magic's was his leadership. He was born with it.

[QUOTE=Loki]Phil Jackson in his book said something to the effect of "just because a guy has the ball in his hands all the time doesn't mean that he's a leader; a guy like Jordan or Bird I feel were much better leaders than Magic Johnson." (paraphrased)

I'd say Magic, myself, though the edge is not huge (their styles differed wildly, though), and it doesn't make him the better player imo.[/QUOTE]

Phil is a great coach but I can't say he ever got the leadership thing down. His triangle creates a void in leadership and it could be argued it created an atmosphere of great ego-centricity. Which is the exact opposite of what a Zen leader teaches. Phil never knew how to balance the Kobe Shaq thing and thought that his Zen teachings would create a natural flow out of it. It was the greatest debacle of leadership and he was one third the equation. When Pippen wanted the leadership role Phil castrated him in favor of a guy that didn't have leadership in him at a critical time in prolonging their season.

Phil was more than likely pacifying Jordan with the quote. The triangle would be a leaderless contraption if he said it any differently. Jordan, a lot of the time wasn't even in the chain of command for fellow players to get instruction - or other things communication wise - I don't know any player that said yeah they went to Jordan in this regard - they all went to Pippen. They couldn't talk to Jordan and when they did he had no trouble pulling out the fear me card. Even told players to not pass to Cartwright, and Cartwright had to threaten him in order to stop the nonsense. Jordan is GOAT but he wasn't top notch in everything and had some major leadership issues. Listen to his HOF speech, it wasn't about his teammates, it was about him and his adversaries. It took a lot of people back.

Magic was approachable, teaching, uniting, accessible, a mentor, guide and leader by example. He was totally intuned to players not being involved and got them involved. He even had an award system if a player got a block, steal, or defensive play. He inspired Kareem to play all out after he was fading for two years. He ran the most team efficient offense ever. He could make players believe in themselves. He made it easy for players. He knew how to reach players where they were at and inspire them to where they should be at. Jordan really lacked in most of these areas and to be blunt and simple - he shouldn't be compared to Magic in this regards.

Good to see the Pippen brigade up in here with their usual revisionist history. "Pippen was the leader" etc. My ass. :oldlol:

Mj was a great floor leader... But Magic was the floor GENERAL...

Magic by quite a ways to me.

Magic could invent points out of thin air for any player on his team. Even that very last man off Laker bench looked [I]sleek[/I] getting a pass from Magic.

can somebody define what their definition of a 'floor leader' is?

Like some have mentioned, they were different players asked to do different things for their teams. Both were successful so I don't see how it's a clear case.

I think neither was actually better than the other. They both had their strengths and weaknesses so things balance out.

Magic, and it isn't even close. Jordan's leadership skills - or lackthereof - was a problem, not a strength.

[QUOTE=Rasheed1]Mj was a great floor leader... But [B]Magic was the floor GENERAL...[/B][/QUOTE]

A great Floor "General" who lost NBA Finals series to Celtics, Pistons, Bulls & Sixers.

& a great floor "Leader" is 6-0 in NBA Finals series.

that makes sense.

Yeah those same Pistons and Celtics teams that were kicking mj's a$$ year after year in the playoffs.

The answer is obviously Magic. When you watch him play you can see how he directs the entire team and what everyone should be doing. DURING play. Literally the engine of the team. Whereas Jordan would do that kind of stuff during timeouts or breaks in play while during play he'd mostly be concerned with his own stuff.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I'm unsure why some people feel the need to insert a comment on who was the better player when that wasn't the question being asked. It's like some people can't just answer the question and leave it at that.[/QUOTE]

It's in order to secure themselves from certain posters who will probably feel attacked after somebody suggests that X was better than Jordan at Y, hence the "I still love Jordan", "but Jordan's still the GOAT" types of comments. Your level of greatness isn't necessarily a shield against irrational fans.

[QUOTE]A great Floor "General" who lost NBA Finals series to Celtics, Pistons, Bulls & Sixers.

& a great floor "Leader" is 6-0 in NBA Finals series.

that makes sense.[/QUOTE]

Here's what I meant before...

BTW, since the 4 round format started existing, one lost to the Bucks and twice to the Celtics (10-3), the other went 8-1, with the only loss coming to the Rockets in his short comeback.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]A great Floor "General" who lost NBA Finals series to Celtics, Pistons, Bulls & Sixers.

& a great floor "Leader" is 6-0 in NBA Finals series.

that makes sense.[/QUOTE]

You are talking about something else entirely.

Jordan got his head handed to him in the playoffs by those exact same teams. Year after year.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s before those teams got old. Jordan and Rodman both knew it, and said it as a simple fact - the NBA they were winning in was far weaker than the 80s NBA.

There's no question the 90s Bulls never met a team in the Finals of the caliber of Showtime Lakers or the 80s Celtics, nor the Pistons, early '80s Sixers, early 80s Bucks.
Many people contend the '80s Jazz were better than the old legs Jazz that got into the Finals.... but Magic's Lakers made sure they never got out of the West.

If you are going to try and bring up things that don't answer the OP's question but that suit your agenda, you are going to have to face the fact that Michael Jordan won in a far weaker league than the NBA Magic Johnson dominated in.

[QUOTE=Ianou]Johnson no contest. His airness did it all himself so he did not lead the floor, [B]he slashed to the basket almost every possession.[/B][/QUOTE]The quote of a person who CLEARLY did not watch Jordan play.:facepalm

How was Jordan a "poor leader"? You clowns are so blatant w/ your agenda. :oldlol:

Jordan was a great leader, one of the best ever, but this isn't even close. Magic IS the best leader and floor general ever.

The agendas are becoming really annoying... Alot of these so called fans really just groopies of one player rather than real NBA fans..

Everything has to devolve into a petty b*tchathon on this board anymore.

I think both players were great leaders and floor generals... I just happen to think Magic was a little better due to the different things he did out there for his team.. He orchestrated showtime at the forum.. That was something incredible the way that team ran and how Magic was the general getting the ball and pushing it, finding open guys and leading the attack..

It was beautiful to watch and that doesnt take anything away from Mj. I have often said Mj is the GOAT, but some of the posters on this board need to stop acting like p*ssies everytime someone doesnt lick their idol's balls.

Magic Johnson and Bird, hell Jordan learned to lead from these two

the most selfish player in nba history a leader? please stop.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]You are talking about something else entirely.

Jordan got his head handed to him in the playoffs by those exact same teams. Year after year.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s before those teams got old. Jordan and Rodman both knew it, and said it as a simple fact - the NBA they were winning in was far weaker than the 80s NBA.
[B]And many more people have trashed this idiotic and biased agenda driven nonsense. [/B]


There's no question the 90s Bulls never met a team in the Finals of the caliber of Showtime Lakers or the 80s Celtics, nor the Pistons, early '80s Sixers, early 80s Bucks.

Many people contend the '80s Jazz were better than the old legs Jazz that got into the Finals.... but Magic's Lakers made sure they never got out of the West.

If you are going to try and bring up things that don't answer the OP's question but that suit your agenda, you are going to have to face the fact that Michael Jordan won in a far weaker league than the NBA Magic Johnson dominated in.[/QUOTE]
Im about to squash your biased agenda by forcing you to contradict your stance by saying this. How do you explain the fact that the Bulls destroyed the Lakers and Pistons in the 91 playoffs? Beating the Pistons 4-0 then the Lakers 4-1.

To answer the question. Magic was more of a leader than Jordan. Its one of the things that made Magic great.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]You are talking about something else entirely.

Jordan got his head handed to him in the playoffs by those exact same teams. Year after year.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s before those teams got old. Jordan and Rodman both knew it, and said it as a simple fact - the NBA they were winning in was far weaker than the 80s NBA.

There's no question the 90s Bulls never met a team in the Finals of the caliber of Showtime Lakers or the 80s Celtics, nor the Pistons, early '80s Sixers, early 80s Bucks.
Many people contend the '80s Jazz were better than the old legs Jazz that got into the Finals.... but Magic's Lakers made sure they never got out of the West.

[B]If you are going to try and bring up things that don't answer the OP's question but that suit your agenda,[/B] you are going to have to face the fact that Michael Jordan won in a far weaker league than the NBA Magic Johnson dominated in.[/QUOTE]

Are you not guilty of the very same thing you seem so vehemently opposed to?

Jordan was a great leader but more importantly he was a fantastic player. He did alot of the heavy lifting on his own, and frankly did things that Magic could not have done. Magic's strength did rest more in his leadership and ability to directly involve teammates in the games. Magic had great versatility, but he didnt have the physical skills Mj did...

[QUOTE=eliteballer][B]Yeah those same Pistons and Celtics teams that were kicking mj's a$$ year after year in the playoffs.
[/B]
The answer is obviously Magic. When you watch him play you can see how he directs the entire team and what everyone should be doing. DURING play. Literally the engine of the team. Whereas Jordan would do that kind of stuff during timeouts or breaks in play while during play he'd mostly be concerned with his own stuff.[/QUOTE]

BS

[B]Magic lost with GOAT Kareem & HOF worthy on his team to Celtics, Pistons & :lol sixers:lol . Magic is clearly a biggest looser than MJ & even Bird[/B]

I agree with '87-'90 MJ,[B] "give me Kareem & worthy, I'll win rings too"[/B]

after all MJ got 32.5 / 8 / 8 with amateur pippen & grant. could easily get 30 /10 /10 for 82 games with GOAT kareem & UNC teammate Worthy in Bulls line up.

MJ clearly better floor leader than Magic. :coleman:

Magic.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]BS

[B]Magic lost with GOAT Kareem & HOF worthy on his team to Celtics, Pistons & :lol sixers:lol . Magic is clearly a biggest looser than MJ & even Bird[/B]

I agree with '87-'90 MJ,[B] "give me Kareem & worthy, I'll win rings too"[/B]

could easily get 30 /10 /10 for 82 games with GOAT kareem & UNC teammate Worthy in Bulls line up.
[/QUOTE]

Do you honestly believe that?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Im about to squash your biased agenda by forcing you to contradict your stance by saying this. How do you explain the fact that the Bulls destroyed the Lakers and Pistons in the 91 playoffs? Beating the Pistons 4-0 then the Lakers 4-1.[/QUOTE]

best of luck with that. I've seen the argument (and your own argument) on the subject of relative NBA strength in the 80s vs. the 90s, and it's never been convincing. Jordan and Rodman themselves disagree with you.

And I already answered that question about the 91 playoffs.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s [COLOR="Red"][B][SIZE="5"]before those teams got old. [/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

And yes, a year is a very long time for an NBA player.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Are you not guilty of the very same thing you seem so vehemently opposed to?[/QUOTE]
absolutely. that is pure tit for tat. if he wants to debate something entirely different from the OP's question, he better bring fact instead of just making some statement like it's undebateable fact.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]best of luck with that. I've seen the argument (and your own argument) on the subject of relative NBA strength in the 80s vs. the 90s, and it's never been convincing. Jordan and Rodman themselves disagree with you.

And I already answered that question about the 91 playoffs.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s [COLOR="Red"][B][SIZE="5"]before those teams got old. [/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

And yes, a year is a very long time for an NBA player.[/QUOTE]
Neither Jordan nor Rodman ever said anything suggesting the Bulls era was weaker than any other. I know Rodman said you couldn't compare the 96 Bulls to the great teams of the 80s ONLY BECAUSE THEY HADNT WON ANYTHING YET.

Neither the Lakers nor Pistons were old at the time they were destroyed by the Bulls. What do you consider old? For the Lakers, Magic was 30 one year removed from being MVP, and.was runner-up in 91. He put up basically the same stats. Worthy was 28 or 29 the same as Scott. The same holds true for the Pistons. I guess you could say Laimbeer was old. But he was in his 30s when the Pistons won. Not to mention his game was predicated on strength and jumpshooting. So Id like to ask you, who was old on those teams?

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]best of luck with that. I've seen the argument (and your own argument) on the subject of relative NBA strength in the 80s vs. the 90s, and it's never been convincing. Jordan and Rodman themselves disagree with you.

And I already answered that question about the 91 playoffs.

Many people argue - from an extremely strong position - that the champion Bulls would have continued to be also-rans/disappeared if they had to play in the 80s [COLOR="Red"][B][SIZE="5"]before those teams got old. [/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

And yes, a year is a very long time for an NBA player.[/QUOTE]

The Lakers weren't old though.

The average age of the Lakers starting five was 29 years old. Most players peak somewhere between 27-30.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Do you honestly believe that?[/QUOTE]

[B]Jordan + Kareem + Worthy >>> Jordan + Pippen + Grant[/B]

Kareem is GOAT top 3.
Worthy has a complete post-up polished offensive game & is an all-time great.

tell me you think otherwise !

I dont see MJ + Kareem + Worthy LOOSING a single NBA Finals or Conf Finals to any team.

The Lakers core ages in 91 avg age 27
Magic 31
Worthy 29
Scott 29
Perkins 29
Green 27
Divac 22


The Pistons core players age in 91 avg age 29
Thomas 29
Dumars 29
Rodman 29
Aguire 31
Laimbeer 33
Salley 26
Johnson 34

[QUOTE=97 bulls]The Lakers core ages in 91 avg age 27
Magic 31
Worthy 29
Scott 29
Perkins 29
Green 27
Divac 22


The Pistons core players age in 91 avg age 29
Thomas 29
Dumars 29
Rodman 29
Aguire 31
Laimbeer 33
Salley 26
Johnson 34[/QUOTE]

This guy La Frescobaldi has a vicious BIASED agenda. You OWNED his a$$ completely with that "before they got Old" thing.

well done. :coleman:

[QUOTE=DatAsh]The Lakers weren't old though.

The average age of the Lakers starting five was 29 years old. Most players peak somewhere between 27-30.[/QUOTE]
He knows they werent old. Its just his agenda typing.

[QUOTE=Rysio]the [B]most selfish player in nba history a leader[/B]? please stop.[/QUOTE]

Nobody even mentioned Mr. Kobe Bryant's name, why are even hinting towards him.

This is plain trolling. :biggums:

[QUOTE=gengiskhan][B]Jordan + Kareem + Worthy >>> Jordan + Pippen + Grant[/B]

Kareem is GOAT top 3.
Worthy has a complete post-up polished offensive game & is an all-time great.

tell me you think otherwise !

I dont see MJ + Kareem + Worthy LOOSING a single NBA Finals or Conf Finals to any team.[/QUOTE]

I still fail to see how that would increase his rebounds from 8 to 10.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan]This guy La Frescobaldi has a vicious BIASED agenda. You OWNED his a$$ completely with that "before they got Old" thing.

well done. :coleman:[/QUOTE]
Im just getting started. I cant wait for him to say that the Lakers and Pistons werent at full strength

[QUOTE=DatAsh]I still fail to see how that would increase his rebounds from 8 to 10.[/QUOTE]
I could easiky se Jordan avg 33/8/10 if he played a Role similar to James. Meaning a pseudo PG

It doesn't matter which era was tougher to play in or any other nonsense. The Question is: who was the better floor leader? Magic's job was to control the offense and get the ball to the the players in the best position to score. Which he did. He was also a great motivator, he directed the offense like a coach out on the floor. Jordan's job was to score. Jordan was a great player, but he played within a system just like everyone else on the floor. A system designed to get him the ball in certain spots so he could score. Magic was clearly a better floor leader.