The GOAT List: 2014 Edition

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]

[IMG]http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Antoine-Walker-Shimmy.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#199 Antoine Devon Walker
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 12 (9)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 2nd Option on average teams, #3/#4 on contenders
[B][SIZE="6"]Prime Averages: [/B] 29-9-4-1 on 42/32/63[/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]L[/SIZE]augh if you want, but before he was a shot chucking, money blowing machine, Walker could really play. He helped one of the most talented college teams ever win a title at Kentucky and then became one of the best inside/outside forwards in the NBA with the Celtics during the ill-fated Pitino era and their brief renaissance under Jim O'Brien which included trip to the 2002 Eastern Conference Finals. Walker made three all-star teams in Boston and posted seasons of 22/10. 23/9 and 22/9 as well as two other 20 ppg seasons. After a year in Dallas and a year split between Atlanta and Boston, Walker signed with the Heat in 2005 and helped Miami win a title as a third option averaging 12/5 in the regular season and 13/6 in the playoffs. Though he proved he could fit in with a Championship team and play a crucial role, like so many of his generation, Walker seemed to fail to reach his potential. He hit buzzer-beaters, scored almost 50 points twice, posted triple-doubles, but always made a few head-scratching plays for every few good plays. Walker, like so many other talented stars seemed not to know the limits of his skills as time went on, but if you'd have asked him he'd explain it perfectly. Many people wonder why a 30% three point shooter would take four, five, as many as eight three's a game.?. Asked why he shot so many three's he, Walker, obviously replied..."because there are no fours"[/FONT][/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER][/QUOTE]

:wtf: that's gotta be a mistake

[QUOTE=wally_world]:wtf: that's gotta be a mistake[/QUOTE]
Obviously, probably meant 20.

[QUOTE=wally_world]:wtf: that's gotta be a mistake[/QUOTE]

I know right? No way Walker ever shot above 40%.

I wonder where you rank Marques Johnson. Had a really good start to his career in the 80's and was a borderline superstar IMO. If anyone considers Blake Griffin, Kevin love or Steph Curry a superstar, he was one.

Really interested to see if/where you place Brad Daugherty!

[CENTER][IMG]http://dunkcontest.free.fr/public/blowup-images/.Larry-Nance-NBA-Dunk-Contest_m.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#196 Larry Donell Nance
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (11)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #3/#4 guy on Good to Very Good teams / Best Player on bad Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 18-9-3-2 on 55/77
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE]head of his time with superb length and explosive athleticism, Nance was a fire cracker in Phoenix first then Cleveland. Coming to the Suns in the earlier eighties, Nance fit in with Dennis Johnson, Walter Davis and Maurice Lucas as Phoenix won 50+ games 1983 and went to the conference finals in '84. After being the featured piece during the Suns rebuilding, Nance was shipped to Cleveland in 1988 for Kevin Johnson. In one of the few trades that works great for both sides, The Suns and Cavs both took off. In 1988-89 Nance made his second all-star game and the Cavs won 57 games. The all-star selection and 57 wins would repeat themselves in 1992 and this time Cleveland added in a trip to the conference finals. Nance's athleticism made him a fascinating player. He won the inaugural NBA slam dunk contest in 1984 beating the likes of Doctor J and Dominique Wilkins. But he was more than just a great dunker. He averaged as many as 22 points, 9 rebounds and 3 blocked shots. He shot over 50% from the field in every season except his last (49%) and did so with a combination of great finishes at the rim and a deadly 18 foot jump shot. Think Serge Ibaka with a little more coordination and you've got an idea of Nance.
[/FONT] [/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B]

[IMG]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51t-YGWi6kL.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#195 Rudolph Anton LaRusso
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (9)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #3 on Title Contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 16/10/2 on 43/77
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]E[/SIZE]veryone knows about West and Baylor, but the 1960's Lakers were more than just a two man show. The most common third wheel on the Lakers bus was hard nosed forward Rudy LaRusso. The 6'8" enforcer for the Lakers front line was a five-time all-star and had a reputation as one of the top defensive forwards of his era. Averaging between 12 and 22 points and 8 and 10 rebounds in each of his ten seasons, LaRusso quietly went about the business of stopping the opposition best forward and knocking down 15 footers and hook shots if you dared leave him open. Elgin Baylor said LaRusso was his "favorite teammate" and that he could always count on him. Other teammates credit him with keeping them loose of the court anfdfocused on it as an ardent professional and a great overall guy. Playing in four NBA finals with the Lakers LaRusso posting averages of 14 points and 9 rebounds during those runs. Many Lakers admire LaRusso for his conduct n and off the court and even Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has said the Lakers should retire his #35 jersey. [/FONT][/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]

Lance and Rudy, two overlooked forwards in their day. Even though the PF position in their day wasn't really talked about until later in both of their careers.

[CENTER][IMG]http://www.remembertheaba.com/tributematerial/PlayerMaterial/LouieDampier/DampierDriveErvingNice.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#194 Louie Dampier
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 11 (8)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Best player on ABA playoff teams, 3rd Best player on ABA contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-3-6 on 44/36/83
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]M[/SIZE]ore than any other player, Louie Dampier's career was missed by basketball fans because of the ABA. Though he did play three NBA seasons, they were late in his career, into his thirties and as a backup for the San Antonio Spurs. But starting with the league and 1967 and seeing it through it's final season in 1976 Dampier played in 822 ABA games for the Kentucky Colonels. He is the ABA's all-time leader in games, minutes played and three-point field goals. For good measure he is also the ABA's all-time leading scorer and assist man. Dampier played his college ball at Kentucky along with Pat Riley. Both were a part of the 1966 team that lost the Championship game to all-Black Texas Western. Drafted by the Royals in the NBA, Dampier opted to join the new ABA and play in his home state. He would make seven all-star teams, four times he was an all-ABA selection. He averaged as many as 26 points a game, poured in 55 one night including 11 threes, and at age 30, he contributed 18 points and 8 assists a night during the Colonels playoff run to their only Championship.
[/FONT] [/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B]

[IMG]http://sportsofboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/030410_michael_finley.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#193 Michael Howard Finley
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 15 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2 on playoff team/#5 on Championship Team
[B]Prime Averages:[/B] 21-5-4-1 on 45/38/82
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]here seems to be a distinct lack of Michael Finley type players in the league today. Seemingly the perfect piece for a team, he is athletic, efficent can score inside and out, defend and he almost never turns it over. An off guard with his skill set putting up the type of numbers he did would be an all-star and/or all-NBA lock today. However a decade ago Finley couldn't break into the elite group. For Finley his climb to NBA stardom started in Phoenix as a role player, after being traded in 1997 re-signed with Dallas the next year to get an opportunity for more playing time. During his very best seasons from 1998 to 2001 he played more minutes than any other NBA player. He made two all-star teams and was regularly receiving minimal MVP votes. He was the first piece to the puzzle in turning the Mavericks franchise around. After he was in place, Dallas drafted Dirk Nowitzki, traded for Juwan Howard and Steve Nash and the rest is history. After five consecutive 50-win seasons, but only one conference finals trip, the Mavericks decided to reshape their roster and Finley signed with Texas rival and defending NBA Champion San Antonio. After the Spurs lost to the Mavericks in the 2006 playoffs and watched Dallas advance to the Finals, Finley and his teammates were hungry. Accepting a smaller role as the fifth starter and playing just under 30 minutes per game, Finley brought shooting, defense and that hunger for a title to the table as the Spurs won it all in 2007. [/FONT][/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]

[CENTER][IMG]http://prohoopshistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/red-kerr.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#192 John Graham Kerr
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B]
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 16-13-2 on 42/72
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE]f your old enough to remember the NBA legends game during all-star weekend (and what a bad idea it was) you might remember a guy who was the size of a house with trace evidence of what was once a head of red hair throwing high post passes between the legs, around the back and in any other non-conventional way he could imagine. That was Johnny "Red" Kerr. Drafted to Syracuse in 1954, right after the shot clock was created by his teams owner Danny Biasone, Kerr arrived just at the right time to bolster an already strong Nationals front court and turn them into the Champions on the 1955 NBA season. Kerr averaged 14 points and 11 rebounds for the playoffs and provided a bigger body to defend against the likes of Fort Wayne's Larry Foust and Philadelphia's Neil Johnston. Kerr would play eight more seasons in Syracuse, the final eight for the franchise before they moved to their new home in Philadelphia. He spent two years as a Sixer, then one as a Baltimore Bullet before retiring in 1966. In total Kerr made three all-star teams, finished as high as sixth in the MVP voting and played in the playoffs every year of his career, including six conference finals.
[/FONT] [/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B]

[IMG]https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5217/5427064853_53fe1d9046_z.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#191 Paul Theron Silas
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 16 (8)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #3/#4 on playoff teams & contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 13-12-3 on 45/65
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE]rguably the top defensive forward of the seventies, Paul Silas made five all-defensive teams in the decade and seemingly went from winner to winner contributing that defense, rebounding and professionalism along the way. Silas played in fourteen postseasons capturing three titles, two with the Celtics and one with the Sonics. He was an all-star in Boston and Phoenix and posted double digits rebounds in St. Louis. Only Kareem, Magic and Wilt (as well as members of the 1960's Celtics) have played in more than the 10 conference finals Silas has appeared in. Silas was one of the top offensive rebounders in the league during his Celtic days, earning a team that had balanced scoring even more chances to shoot the ball. Four times he finished in the top ten in rebounding and ranks 21st all-time in rebounds for his career. Silas made a strong impression on teammates and opponents alike, perhaps none more so than John Havlicek who said of Silas after their second title together in 1976: "Paul is one of the most extraordinary people I've ever known, I'm not just talking about basketball; his character, his experiences, and his wisdom is unparalleled. He's a very strong leader, and you can't help but be affected by him."[/FONT][/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]

Finley was one of my favs in the early 2000s. I will always remember his cartwheel dunk.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Finley was one of my favs in the early 2000s. I will always remember his cartwheel dunk.[/QUOTE]

Kizzle or anyone else, which current players remind you most of Michael Finley?

:applause:

If you could list the years they played that could be a little better. And list the years that you are using for their "prime averages".

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]:applause:

If you could list the years they played that could be a little better. And list the years that you are using for their "prime averages".[/QUOTe]

Most of the players career spans are covered in the brief writeups. Prime seasons are classified for this project as seasons where a player aged at least 50 games in the same or similar role/circumstances as their peak season.

I would do it, but it's literally a Google search away, I think there is more crucial info to look at for the general reader.

If you want specifics about a certain player or group of players pm me.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Kizzle or anyone else, which current players remind you most of Michael Finley?[/QUOTE]
Can't think of anyone really. I guess Marvin Williams is a very poor version of Fin.

[CENTER][IMG]http://www.notinhalloffame.com/UserFiles/Image/article_images/Basketball/35.%20Charlie%20Scott.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#190 Charles Thomas Scott
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (8)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #4/#5 on Championship Teams/Best Player Balanced playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 24-4-5 on 45/77
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]P[/SIZE]rolific scoring guard whose career began in the NBA where he poured 30ppg over two seasons with the Virginia Squires, including the 1971-72 season which was the rookie campaign for Julius Erving, Scott was the team’s leading scorer. The Squires were a team on the rise, but Scott bolted for the NBA after the Celtics (who had his draft rights) traded him to the Suns. Had he stuck around the ABA it seems likely his Squires would have played the Indiana Pacers for the title that year. But instead he posted more big numbers on a bad Phoenix team. Over three seasons he averaged 24 points and as many as six assists. He made three all-star teams in a row, following his two ABA selections and proved himself as a bonafide scorer in the NBA. And so, Boston came calling. They had won the Championship in 1974, but failed to defend their title in 1975 falling short against the Washington Bullets. John Havlicek was getting older, slowing down, and Scott could provide a perimeter scoring punch to help the team get back to the top of the mountain. That’s just what he did. After being acquired in a deal that sent Paul Westphal to the Suns (another trade that worked out great for both parties), Scott would average 18 points 4 rebounds and 4 assists and the Celtics would face the surprising Suns in the NBA finals. He kept up the same pace for much of the playoffs, but saved his best for last , the infamous double overtime game six of the 1976 finals saw Scott post 25 points, 11 rebounds, 5 steals and 3 assists as the Celtics hing on by the skin of their team for their 13th World Championship. Scott played two more seasons in Boston before they began rebuilding, From there he spent half a season with the Lakers and two years in Denver before retiring at age 32. [/FONT][/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B]

[IMG]http://i.huffpost.com/gen/259779/thumbs/r-MARK-AGUIRRE-COLLAPSES-large570.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#189 Mark Anthony Aguirre
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #4/#5 on Championship Teams/Best Player on Bad Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 25-6-4-1 on 49/31/74
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE]t’s not always fun playing for an NBA expansion team, and Mark Aguirre, the top pick of the 1981 draft found that out after he began his career with the NBA’s 23rd franchise the Dallas Mavericks, right as they began their second NBA season. After having a dazzling career at DePaul, Aguirre despite rumors of an attitude problem was the pick of the Mavericks, their centerpiece to build around. Aguirre, reluctant to express joy after being drafted said he just wanted to get better every year with Dallas, and it started just that way. Dallas jumped to 28 wins in Aguirre’s rookie year and 38 in his second year as he averaged 24 points six rebounds and four assists. He was an all-star his third season as Dallas’ win total improved again and this time, over .500 they would host a best of five playoff series with Seattle. After four grueling games the series was tied and Seattle led Dallas by four with 30 seconds remaining. A steal and lay-up by Rolondo Blackman and a five second violation followed by a Blackman jumper tied the game and forced overtime. There Aguirre hit two key shots to secure a one point win and a series win for the Mavericks. The next two seasons saw 44038 records and two more playoff appearances, but a first round exit against Portland and an a second semifinals loss to the Lakers (despite 28 a game from Aguirre) had the tension between coach Dick Motta and Mark at an all-time high. As their constant feud was described: “The usual unfolding of these well-publicized tiffs: Aguirre does something on the court that irks Motta. Motta yells and then yanks Aguirre from the game. Aguirre sulks. Motta fumes. They exchange words in the locker room afterward. They meet later and, temporarily, patch up differences.” 1987 and 1988 saw the Mavericks field their best two teams of the 80’s. The won 110 games in the two seasons and though they were upset in the first round by high-flying Seattle in 1987, they reached the conference finals and pushed Los Angeles to seven games in 1988, Aguirre for his part led the team with 25 points a game and added 7 rebounds and 3 assists against Showtime. That was the peak for the Mavericks though. Aguirre, now a three-time all-star, however was still feuding with Motta and when Dallas struggled to start the 1988-89 campaign, his name got brought up in trade talks. He eventually he landed in Detroit in exchange for Adrian Dantley. A close friend of Isiah Thomas, Aguirre accepted a lesser role and the Pistons took of, going 37-4 down the stretch and into the playoffs en route to their first title. They would win again in 1990, now with Aguirre providing scoring punch off the bench. Mark stayed with Detroit through 1993, played one season with the Clippers and retired in 1994. [/FONT][/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]

Can we just skip to the top 10?

[CENTER][IMG]http://news.sctv.com/tyxw/basketball/201110/W020111012331956941183.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#188 Larry Joe Kenon
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2 on above average to very good teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-10-3-2 on 49/80
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE] t 6

[QUOTE=Shade8780]Can we just skip to the top 10?[/QUOTE]

What do you mean?

I don't see how that would work.

Trust me it'll be better because of this.

[QUOTE=Shade8780]Can we just skip to the top 10?[/QUOTE]

:lol

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Kizzle or anyone else, which current players remind you most of Michael Finley?[/QUOTE]

He doesn't particularly remind of Finley, but Joe Johnson is a current player that I would consider a Finley caliber player. Finley was more a slasher (even though he had an effective outside shot), while Joe is more a jump shooter, but they seem to be on the same tier IMO. In their primes both are great #2 players on teams that could go deep in the playoffs.

[CENTER][IMG]http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/54/4AECF473A6B355FEAA74E2D63BABF7.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#186 Gerald Eugene Sloan
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (9)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3/#4 on balanced playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 15-8-3-2 on 43/72
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B]

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/bulls/vanlier_050215.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#185 Norman Allen Van Lier III
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (7)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3/#4 on balanced playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 13-5-7-2 on 42/79
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]he Chicago Bulls of the 1970

Charlie Scott was also a playground legend out at Rucker Park. I wanna say he has one of the highest ppg avg in ABA/NBA history. Kenon is very forgotten player but the mid-late 70s is probably the most non talked about era in basketball save from 1946 until Russell was drafted.

[CENTER][IMG]http://mymediadiary.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/rip.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#184 Richard Clay Hamilton
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 14 (9)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] Go-to-guy on Contending Teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 19-3-4-1 on 45/35/85
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]

[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]I[/SIZE] already miss Rip Hamilton. When we (I say we to mean the Detroit Pistons) traded for Rip I was lukewarm. I had finally come around to Jerry Stackhouse, Rick Carlisle had him playing defense and jacking up considerably less bad shots. But the trade was made along with the signing of Chauncey Billups and few could have guessed it would become the beginning of the best backcourt in the last 20 years. Hamilton is a poor-mans Reggie Miller. He is supremely conditioned, can run off screens all day and understands how to get open as well as anyone. Pair those traits with a deadly mid-range jumper and a lightning quick release from his long 6

I think Van Lier waa much better than Rip. I think he's at least a tier above him. Same with Scott.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I think Van Lier waa much better than Rip. I think he's at least a tier above him. Same with Scott.[/QUOTE]

Looking at the numbers, the accolades, the team success, I don;t see it. Rip was the leading scorer for an NBA Champion and a constant 20ppg guy for deep playoff runs.

All in the same tier to me. Slight edge to Rip for winning the title in his role.

Love the list man! keep it up. love reading this stuff..

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Looking at the numbers, the accolades, the team success, I dthey doe it. Rip was the leading scorer for an NBA Champion and a constant 20ppg guy for deep playoff runs.

All in the same tier to me. Slight edge to Rip for winning the title in his role.[/QUOTE]
Don't get me wrong I like Rip but he doesn't have the individual accolades they have. Those guys were either top ten in scoring some seasons or a top defender at their position. he wasn't dominant enough to seperate himself without those accolades. That's what seperates a Gus Williams from a Rip. Similar situation over in Seattle no superstars but he had a few more accolades that seperates him and Rip.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Don't get me wrong I like Rip but he doesn't have the individual accolades they have. Those guys were either top ten in scoring some seasons or a top defender at their position. he wasn't dominant enough to seperate himself without those accolades. That's what seperates a Gus Williams from a Rip. Similar situation over in Seattle no superstars but he had a few more accolades that seperates him and Rip.[/QUOTE]

Charlie Scott was a top ten scorer on real bad teams. He was the 3rd/4th option on good teams while still in his twenties.

Van Lier was a great defender and a good play maker but I'll take a 22 per game scorer on the NBA Champion and above average defender over 13-4-6 an all-league defense on a borderline contender.

Gus Williams may still be heard from...

[CENTER][IMG]http://image2.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2014/124/23969366_1399309828.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#182 Paul Norman Seymour
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 12 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 13-4-5 on 34/80
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]hree time all-star and two time all-NBA selection. Second leading scoring and assist leader for 1955 NBA Champions. Defensive standout and during his prime one of the top playmakers in the league. Played in two NBA Finals. Got better after the transition to the shot clock era. Outstanding foul shooter by the end of his career, once made 39 consecutive.
[/FONT] [/SIZE]
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]

[IMG]http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mMzE5HgTrXkA8Jh8TFVe8ww.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#181 Robert Francis Wanzer
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Winning Pieces: Stars & Specialists
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 9 (6)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 13-5-3 on 39/83
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]eamed with Bob Davies to form one of the NBA

Ahh, the forgotten era of the NBA the early 1950s. Andy Phillip, Arnie Risen, Carl Braun and Mel Hutchins. Will they make it or jut missed the cut? Maurice Stokes don't think he had a long enough career. He was probably on his was to a top 10-15 NBA career.

Tks Man!

My favorite list on ISH!!!:rockon:

[CENTER][IMG]http://www.fantasychamp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ro-blackman.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#176 Rolando Antonio Blackman
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Second Tier Stars
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (9)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-4-4-1 on 50/33/84
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]J[/SIZE]oining the Mavericks in 1981, the start of their second season in existence, Blackman along with classmate Mark Aguirre and later selections Derek Harper and Sam Perkins would form the core of the Mavericks first playoff team. From 1984 to 1988 the Mavericks won an average of 49 games, made the playoffs each season and peaked pushing to Lakers to seven games in the 1988 Western Conference Finals. Blackman was the go-to-guy in the clutch. Possessing a dangerous combination of speed, sensational ball handling and outstanding body control and balance Blackman could flat out score. He almost always went right, but if you cut him off he

[CENTER][IMG]http://assets2.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/richardson_michael_ray-640x360.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#173 Micheal Ray Richardson
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 8 (4)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B]#1/#2/#3 on Borderline playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 18-7-8-3 on 46/22/70
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]H[/SIZE]n all-time what could have been story here. Michael Ray Richardson burst onto the NBA scene and just as quickly was gone. He battled substance abuse throughout his prime years and still posted eye popping numbers, even leading the league in steals and assists in his sophomore season of 1979-80. He was in some ways the East Coast answer to Magic Johnson at the point guard position. A 6

Occasionally, there are great ISH threads. This is one of them. Thanks for the ABA players being included. I myself believe their stats should be given equal weight, especially after 1972.

Collins and Ro are two very overlooked players. There was a special narrated by Chris Rock on TNT back in maybe 2001 called "What ever happened to Micheal Ray Richardson?" It was a great documentary.

[CENTER][IMG]http://nimg.sulekha.com/sports/original700/peja-stojakovic-2009-11-10-1-40-17.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#171 Predrag Stojakovic
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 13 (6)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] #2/#3 on borderline contenders
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-5-2-1 on 46/40/89
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]T[/SIZE]here wasn

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]Occasionally, there are great ISH threads. This is one of them. Thanks for the ABA players being included. I myself believe their stats should be given equal weight, especially after 1972.[/QUOTE]

I read a lot of your ABA thread and like you, I am typically one to defend the ABA and the achievements of the players in it. That being said there are a few things I've decided over the past ten years during which I've done most of my ABA studies.

1) The forwards in the ABA were better than the forwards in the NBA. Right from the start with guys like Connie Hawkins and Spencer Haywood and of course later with Erving, Barnes, McGinnis, Kenon, Lucas, Issel etc. the ABA attracted most of the young athletic taller players to it's league.

2) The centers and guards were not nearly as good as the NBA's. Gilmore could have been a top 5 NBA center, the rest (Nater, Robbins, Beaty, Paultz, Caldwell Jones) couldn't have for more than a peak season here or there. The best ABA guards; Dampier, Silas, Larry and Jimmy Jones, Mack Calvin, Ron Boone, none of them were able to come close to equaling their ABA successes in the NBA.

3) Teams didn't play defense the same way, coaching was less evolved defensively and the ABA promoted a high scoring more open style of play. This probably made for great entertainment for the casual fan, but it skewed the numbers, especially scoring and rebounding quite a bit. Now the NBA's scoring and rebounding numbers are also a bit inflated from 1970-1976 because of expansion and the ABA weakening the talent pool, but still the effect is less pronounced than in the ABA. Looking at the top players who had prime seasons in both leagues back-to-back here's what you get.


Barry
72 ABA - 32-8-4
73 NBA - 22-9-5

McGinnis
75 ABA - 30-14-6-3
76 NBA - 23-12-5-3

Erving
76 ABA - 29-11-5-3-2
77 NBA - 22-9-4-2-1

Haywood
70 ABA - 30-20-2
71&72 NBA* - 25-13-2

*sat out most of 70-71

Hawkins
69 ABA - 30-12-4
70 NBA - 25-10-5

Issel
76 ABA - 23-11-2
77 NBA - 22-9-2

Gilmore
76 ABA - 25-16-3
77 NBA - 19-13-2

Knight
ABA 76 - 26-9-3
NBA 77 - 24-7-3

Beaty
NBA 69 - 22-11-2
ABA 71 - 23-16-2

Caldwell
NBA 70 - 21-5-3
ABA 71 - 21-7-4

Scott
72 ABA - 35-5-5
73 NBA - 25-4-6

Even in the case of Billy Cunningham, whose ABA and NBA numbers are almost equal from 72 to 73, he posted his NBA numbers on a last place team and his ABA ones of a first place team.

Let's acknowledge that a lot of the big scoring drop offs were because players went to more balanced teams, but that's sort of the point pertaining to the NBA...depth. Overall, I think what you get is pretty consistent evidence that the ABA was a slightly higher paced league with a little less depth of talent, less organized defense, but just as good if not greater high end star power at three of the five positions.

Thanks as always for your contributions and thoughts everyone, the more feedback the better the list gets (in most cases)

I forget all about Peja.

[CENTER][IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/media/pistons/gshue_225_080408.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]
[SIZE="4"][B][FONT="Book Antiqua"]#169 Eugene William Shue
[/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[B]Tier Classification:[/B] Stars: Brief Prime
[B]Years Played (Quality Prime Seasons):[/B] 10 (5)
[B]Primary Role(s):[/B] 1A/1B on borderline playoff teams
[B]Prime Averages: [/B] 20-5-5 on 40/83
[CENTER][B]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/B][/CENTER]
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]-[SIZE="6"]A[/SIZE]fter starting his career in 1954, the first season of the shot clock era, Gene Shue spending two frustrating seasons in Philadelphia and New York. Having improved year after year, he finally got his chance with the Ft. Wayne Zollner Pistons during the 1956-57 season. After a season proving himself as a role player, the pass-first, defend first, shot second guard was a beloved teammate and eventually a very successful coach, turned into an all-star and stayed an all-star for five consecutive seasons, scoring 20 points, playing all-league caliber defense and a great all-around game. His line drive set shot and his one handed swinging scoop layup were his best offensive weapons and in Ft. Wayne and Detroit for the Pistons they came in handy. His teams however were mediocre however, paired with a combination of Bailey Howell, Walter Dukes, Bob Ferry and Don Ohl they struggled to win as much as they lost. During Shue

Excellent work, GOAT, as usual.

All of your threads should be compiled into a book. That's largely an untapped market :cheers:

Grandmamma was one of the biggest stars in the NBA when I started watching (1991), and turned into my generation's what-if story. :facepalm