US state department and Pentagon confirm Russia is firing on Ukraine

[QUOTE=rezznor]so in all your wisdom, what do expect the US to do? invade Russia? :facepalm

The US can only do so much,[B] it's the european leaders that need to grow a pair and follow the US with sanctions, [/B]that's when Putin is going to feel some real pain.[/QUOTE]

Not as easy for Europe to do this. Various countries in the EU run on Russian Energy and Germany has something like 6000 business linked to Russia. Placing sanctions would **** themselves over too economically. It has nothing to do with growing a pair.

Would we not be able to objectively dominate Russia if it ever came down to war?

[QUOTE=Nick Young]Would we not be able to objectively dominate Russia if it ever came down to war?[/QUOTE]
Honestly... I think we could defeat Russia handily.

[QUOTE=longhornfan1234]I want US, UK, Germany Israel, and Ukraine to go to war with Russia, Syria, and Iran. It's inevitable.[/QUOTE]

:biggums:

[QUOTE=Nick Young]Would we not be able to objectively dominate Russia if it ever came down to war?[/QUOTE]


they'd have to start or cause it, and i think if it happened it'd be very gray, not black and white since it'd probably stem from incidents in/around Ukraine. nobody wants to go to war with a nuclear power and country as strong and big of a power as Russia. thats why everyone wants nuclear bombs, you become a lot more of your own sovereignty where the rest of the world holds less power over you.

with that said i think a lot could happen, basically 'incidents', that would not cause one, but it would always be a possible pre text to war, which i think all of the world leaders are afraid of now, and Putin is sending that message with his bluff(imo) with all of those Russian soldiers amassed across the Russian border. thats why i think nobody is supporting Ukraine directly because Putin is holding that card over their head like he's going full in and full escalation if the west starts helping....while pretending he has no control over the Separatists, and they are their own entity basically causing chaos in Ukraine = playing it both ways.

But thats why i see the world leaders are such lame poosies because Putin is much weaker than all of them combined, but has them by the balls afraid to do anything...even after the world knows he is responsible for shooting down that airliner AND the cover up. all them bitches do is cry and cry about it every day. whats it been like 2 weeks of crying? feels like it...

i think he may eventually even push further, or take Ukraine..if Ukraine doesn't eventually acquiesce to Russia's influence. at some point those world leaders shaking in their boots are going to have to make a call if they're going to do something or watch Putin just keep ramming his dikk into Ukraine.

all my opinion obviously but i'm running with it. i think most of the cards being played are accounted for, along with why they've done nothing :pimp:

the other thing is sanctions generally takes years to make a impact, and thats with smaller/weaker nations than Russia, and this Ukraine issue is a very now event. who knows where its going to be in a few months.

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing][IMG]http://www.americanthinker.com/legacy_assets/articles/assets/Putin%20%2B%20gun.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73347000/jpg/_73347031_put.jpg[/IMG]

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[IMG]http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/world/2011/08/20/putins_rockstar_image_as_russias_saviour_buffed_by_kremlin_spin_doctors/putinglasses.jpeg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpeg[/IMG]

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[IMG]http://www.jeffpearlman.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/obama-coward-211x300.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


Right-wingers bobbing on the knob of an ex-KGB agent. Spectacular fail from these phony patriots.

We've lost thousands of soldiers and spent trillions of dollars to fail to keep Iraq and Afghanistan under control and some of you think we can deal with Russia? This is idiotic. Of course Obama wants nothing to do with war with Russia. That would be because he's sane. We only attack Russia if they attack us. They have a huge, powerful military. They're far away (unless you live in Palin's house). A large population. Nukes. You want World War III? No one advocating military action should be pretending to care when soldiers die or the debt explodes. Madness.

[QUOTE=longhornfan1234]I want US, UK, Germany Israel, and Ukraine to go to war with Russia, Syria, and Iran. It's inevitable.

[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Young
Would we not be able to objectively dominate Russia if it ever came down to war?[/QUOTE]
Honestly... I think we could defeat Russia handily.[/QUOTE]

OK Kids, time for bed. We'll leave the pieces where they are and you can finish up tomorrow after school.

[IMG]http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/11/22/risk_custom-ee936530180397e4de9d58b710c2edbe82948bec-s6-c30.jpg[/IMG]

Amerifats think they can take on Russia :oldlol:

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]OK Kids, time for bed. We'll leave the pieces where they are and you can finish up tomorrow after school.[/QUOTE]
While we could no doubt wreak extreme havoc what's amazing to me is that some of these posters haven't learned the lesson of Iraq/Afghanistan: destabilizing a country is not the same thing as controlling it. And then you throw in how powerful Russia is, how big the country is? What are these people thinking?

[QUOTE=JohnFreeman]Amerifats think they can take on Russia :oldlol:[/QUOTE]


we'd wreck them handily...we'd just never do it. and we'd maybe take some big shots too but we have way more fire power and tech. our military expenditure dwarfs everyone.

America is weary of war. problem is everyone knows it and they abuse it... while ISIS is taking over Iraq, Iran had been meddling in Iraq/Syria/etc for a long time knowing we were already involved in IRaq/Afghanistan, Putin basically playing chicken with us and the EU, and its really a situation where the world leaders know we don't have the appetite for war anymore, despite the firepower/arms to destroy everyone.

which obviously necessitates shit like sanctions, politics with other nations to get involved with us, etc. type of stuff where they're weary of it too since they helped us in Iraq/Afghanistan as well...and we helped in Syria.

still doesn't change the perspective of us crying every day while watching Ukraine who chose the west over Russia gets abused, watching a airliner downed by Russian separatists with Putin's obvious involvement and ruining the crime scene along with blatant lies/propaganda that insults the worlds intelligence while the world just watches...making us all poosies vs 1 clever asshole running a mass propaganda'd nation.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]While we could no doubt wreak extreme havoc what's amazing to me is that some of these posters haven't learned the lesson of Iraq/Afghanistan: destabilizing a country is not the same thing as controlling it. And then you throw in how powerful Russia is, how big the country is? What are these people thinking?[/QUOTE]

And several hundred operational nuclear weapons and thousands in reserve.

I also like when you throw Iran into the mix. I wonder what a war time economy with $16 gas looks like because no oil tankers can get through the Strait of Hormuz.

Also the logistics of supporting this war would be fun considering there are several countries between Germany and Ukraine. Seems like a lot of supply flights. Where is all this jet fuel coming from?

[QUOTE=Godzuki]making us all poosies vs 1 clever asshole running a mass propaganda'd nation.[/QUOTE]
While Putin is "taking advantage" of our being sick of war to try and take territory over in the Ukraine the shooting down of a passenger jet was not "clever." That was a massive blunder that in no way furthered the cause of Putin or the separatists. Sanctions won't stop Russia but they don't like them either.

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]And several hundred operational nuclear weapons and thousands in reserve.

I also like when you throw Iran into the mix. I wonder what a war time economy with $16 gas looks like because no oil tankers can get through the Strait of Hormuz.

Also the logistics of supporting this war would be fun considering there are several countries between Germany and Ukraine. Seems like a supply flights. Where is all this jet fuel coming from?[/QUOTE]
There would be a thousand problems that we don't even anticipate.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]There would be a thousand problems that we don't even anticipate.[/QUOTE]

You know who wins that war? China.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]While Putin is "taking advantage" of our being sick of war to try and take territory over in the Ukraine the shooting down of a passenger jet was not "clever." That was a massive blunder that in no way furthered the cause of Putin or the separatists. Sanctions won't stop Russia but they don't like them either.[/QUOTE]


obviously it wasn't intentional...i'm talking about how he's handled the situation, while furthering his ambitions in Ukraine with no check or repercussions to this point...a whole crime scene ruined and controlled by 'rebels' while the rest of the world sends investigators in at the mercy of rebel drunks. its really pitiful but almost funny how u look at it :oldlol:

the thing is this, its great to be us and have our military expenditure and arms when the world THINKS you might use it...thats when it works as a deterrence. Thats the main reason we do it, not to use it but to scare the fukk out of people or other countries leaders not to fukk with us. But they follow our countries politics, they see our liberals extremely dead set against war, even Republicans are weary and they're as stupid reactive with temper tantrums led by emotion as people come....and here we are where people are testing us because they know our country has no appetite for war, or really very little threat of really making a move like that. Its like we used our cards on stupid shit like Iraq and Afghanistan, now we can't play it again, and we're constantly tested now. i don't think Iran would've been as bold with us, especially that Ahminijad fgt talking all of that shit if he knew we weren't already involved in 2 wars and the climate of America being so weary of it.


not to say we still can't bomb the shit out of people, arm others, etc. but even arming tends to come back around...just we'll never probably have mass ground troops anywhere again for awhile. at least i don't think so....

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]And several hundred operational nuclear weapons and thousands in reserve.

I also like when you throw Iran into the mix. I wonder what a war time economy with $16 gas looks like because no oil tankers can get through the Strait of Hormuz.

Also the logistics of supporting this war would be fun considering there are several countries between Germany and Ukraine. Seems like a lot of supply flights. Where is all this jet fuel coming from?[/QUOTE]


i don't follow the worlds oil reserves and supply but i do know the arab countries, Canada, us, and i know there are many more that can probably make up for it IF the EU weren't so attached and there already being a infrastructure/reliance of supply the EU is accustomed to. No way Russia is the end all be all source for oil in the entire world...

i also think our tech is leagues ahead of Russia...i'm pretty sure of that. not saying we wouldn't be hit with some shots but i do think we'd handily wreck them. And realistically its not like Putin can suicide bomb his whole country into war against us...and Russians would know its like suicide i think...even if they're very nationalistic.

thats where i like our chances in a game of chicken, or rather calling his bluff.

You guys are a bunch of f[I]u[/I]cktards. First of all, Russia or China weren't trying to step in while we were blowing the middle-east a new asshole the past 10 years, and there's little difference between the invasion of Ukraine and that of Iraq.

Furthermore, as people mentioned, going to war with Russia or even posturing to do such a thing is completely retarded. No one wants any piece of the other top 10 military nations.

Anyone who was alive in the early mid 60's will tell you how stupid and terrifying that would be.

[QUOTE=DeuceWallaces]You guys are a bunch of f[I]u[/I]cktards. First of all, Russia or China weren't trying to step in while we were blowing the middle-east a new asshole the past 10 years, and there's little difference between the invasion of Ukraine and that of Iraq.

Furthermore, as people mentioned, going to war with Russia or even posturing to do such a thing is completely retarded. No one wants any piece of the other top 10 military nations.

Anyone who was alive in the early mid 60's will tell you how stupid and terrifying that would be.[/QUOTE]

that was Soviet Union era...its just Russia and they are still trying to get back to where they were. After the Soviet collapse Russia went through a lot of problems and instability, and i even think they lost a lot of their weapons/arms to rogue dealers altho i'm sure they still have huge stockpiles of it and not saying they aren't a big threat still.

If you're referring to me i'm not saying we go to war with them but you have to at least make the threat you're willing, otherwise he and others are extremely abusive of our passiveness or playing chicken knowing we're flinching at first threat of collision. And thats basically what Putin is doing...he's actually stepped up his assaults on Ukraine, even been more open it seems with direct attacks from Russia now from what it sounds like, and so shortly after the Malaysian crash where the world reprimanded him....and he's just laughing in everyones faces while the world blusters.

Sanctions will probably take a decade to make him cave, if it took Iran like 5~ years? seems to be the way we're headed tho....feel sorry for Ukraine.

[QUOTE=Godzuki]that was Soviet Union era...its just Russia and they are still trying to get back to where they were. After the Soviet collapse Russia went through a lot of problems and instability, and i even think they lost a lot of their weapons/arms to rogue dealers altho i'm sure they still have huge stockpiles of it and not saying they aren't a big threat still.[/quote]They only need to connect with one to make Obama the worst President of all time.

[QUOTE]If you're referring to me i'm not saying we go to war with them but you have to at least make the threat you're willing, otherwise he and others are extremely abusive of our passiveness or playing chicken knowing we're flinching at first threat of collision. And thats basically what Putin is doing...he's actually stepped up his assaults on Ukraine, even been more open it seems with direct attacks from Russia now from what it sounds like, and so shortly after the Malaysian crash where the world reprimanded him....and he's just laughing in everyones faces while the world blusters.[/QUOTE]Bluff too much and eventually you will get called. Rather than playing chicken with a nuclear opponent we need to step back and realize that conflicts in far away countries that don't involve us are a bad idea. The Ukraine may get swallowed up by Russia. I concede, that's too bad. But are we going to step in with force every time two other countries fight? Are we just going to keep on spending the lives of our soldiers and piling on debt going it alone into foreign nations? We really can't afford this kind of activity. We don't rule the world and never have, time to accept that reality.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]They only need to connect with one to make Obama the worst President of all time.

Bluff too much and eventually you will get called. Rather than playing chicken with a nuclear opponent we need to step back and realize that conflicts in far away countries that don't involve us are a bad idea. The Ukraine may get swallowed up by Russia. I concede, that's too bad. But are we going to step in with force every time two other countries fight? Are we just going to keep on spending the lives of our soldiers and piling on debt going it alone into foreign nations? We really can't afford this kind of activity. We don't rule the world and never have, time to accept that reality.[/QUOTE]

yeah people are retarded with the way they criticize Obama, but thats pretty much every Republican, especially the die hards. the whole internet is littered with Obama hate from every Republican and most of it is extremely hypocritical.

i didn't think u guys were taking some people here seriously tho, especially where its more like them trolling at this point than making legit points.

i think we have to be involved in stuff, otherwise the world will catch up and pass us by or become so rotten and messed up, they'll all be flocking to us/europe....and all of that stuff does have a affect on our economy. altho i'm not saying we shouldn't back away some to stuff, i think our politicians/us have learned some lessons we shouldn't be getting involved in everything.

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]OK Kids, time for bed. We'll leave the pieces where they are and you can finish up tomorrow after school.

[IMG]http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/11/22/risk_custom-ee936530180397e4de9d58b710c2edbe82948bec-s6-c30.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Another no substance post from Kevin. :facepalm

[QUOTE=JohnFreeman]Amerifats think they can take on Russia :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

California alone has a larger economy than Russia. If it came to blows, the US would stomp their guts out without breaking a sweat. It isn't worth it though.

LOL @ Putin... this guy :lol

[B]'He's a very arrogant person to deal with'

Clinton also shared her thoughts on her interactions with Putin during her stint as Obama's secretary of state.


"He's very tough. He's a very arrogant person to deal with, which I think is a combination of this vision of Russia and some fundamental insecurity, because when you are dealing with him, he often acts as though he could care less," Clinton said.

"...There was a G20 summit in Los Cabos (Mexico, in 2012) and our President had a meeting scheduled. He kept President Obama waiting 40 minutes before he showed up. He sat down. It was a very small meeting on both sides of the table. We, at the time, were very hopeful -- not realistically so, but idealistically so -- that we could get more cooperation from Russia to slow down (Bashar) al-Assad and what he was doing in Syria," she said. "Putin could not have looked more bored, more discomfited, and never apologized for being late."

"So then, of course, he wanted a summit in Russia. He wanted to play the host. And my advice to the president was don't go chasing after him. We're not sure of what his real intent is."[/B]

Putin is such an asshole. He's pretty damn alpha doe can't lie

[QUOTE=Godzuki][B]i want us to fukk up the Separatists...at the least arm the Ukrainians against the Separatists. I want us to call Putin's playing 2 sides.[/B]

maybe even send in special forces at night or some type of attack on the Separatists. I want us to clearly stand with Ukraine...against the Separatists.

Ukraine chose the west over joiniing Russia...and we aren't even backing them after all of this BS...[/QUOTE]
Thats a bad idea imo.
Russians and ukrainians care far more about this situation than anyone else.

It would just give putin a reason to invade. We dont/shouldnt care enough about ukraine to fight russia. We should be trying to deescalate this situation. Ukraine needs to either beat the pro russian separatists by themselves, or accept that the eastern part of their country will not be under their actual control.

It would be different if russia attacked a nato ally like estonia, because that would be a pre-existing treaty obligation and if not answered it would throw into doubt all of america's treaty obligations, which could cause huge problems in eastern europe and in asia.

[QUOTE=Graviton]So will there be sanctions against Israel too? Why isn't US pressuring them?

It's funny when these conflicts involve Russia or a Muslim nation, US is quick to judge and the media immediately paints them as the bad guys. But if it's Israel doing the same thing, they never say or do anything. [B]At the end of the day our government only cares about the shift of power and their own interests[/B], the people getting hurt and nations collapsing is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
as any government should.
Also we are actively supporting israel in the UN and other international organizations. We also helped them to develop their Iron dome defense system, and their air force utilizes american technology.

[QUOTE=Graviton]It all started from those 3 Israeli boys being killed, slowly the conflict grows and it turns into all out war.

I thought you were up to date on the latest news, [URL="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-25/15-killed-in-israeli-shelling-of-gaza-school/5622832"]Israel bombed a school shelter and killed 15 people, mostly kids. [/URL]They said Hamas militants hide in such places and rockets may have been hidden there. But the UN reporters after investigating the site said no rocket parts, ammunition or any weapons were found.

Now Russia reportedly is firing artillery shells at Ukraine, do you see the analogy now? If they hit a school and killed 15 people and injured 200 do you think the US media would be reporting this with the same tone as Israel's bombings? Obama would be condemning Putin and all the news organizations would be against Russia. [B]But since Israel is their ally they are staying neutra[/B]l.

And lets be real, Israel wants those arab nations destroyed too. They all hate each other, there are no good guys in this scenario.[/QUOTE]
We are not neutral. we might claim to be but we are clearly pro israeli.
I am not sure if Israel is right or not, I am honestly very conflicted about it.

I am sure the US should support israel 100%. Any nation needs to support its allies, or the question emerges, why be an ally to that nation.

Eg. Assad is a monster. It is logical for russia to support him.
Also at this point im not sure we should help the germans if they ever need it.

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing]Do you know what the President of the Free World and the most powerful man in the world is doing right now while the world burns???

Fundraising.


Fundraising instead of acting Presidential and trying to resolve conflicts as every past President before him has. Not to mention our border is in chaos with thousands coming across. He rather be fundraising instead.

Any sane President would be in Russia right now demanding a cease-fire and demanding Putin to pull back his troops. Any sane President would be in Israel right now demanding Hamas to surrender and demand they stop attacking Israel. Any sane President would pass legislation to deport every single illegal citizen back to the country they came from. We have millions on welfare and the President wants to borrow 4.7 billion dollars to tackle the border mess. The man is a buffoon. Worst President ever.[/QUOTE]
This is insane, you want to fight russia over ukraine?

Look if russia starts threatening a country we have a defense treaty with, eg estonia, poland, etc. then you have to respond or lose all credibility, but any president should be impeached for wanting to go to war with russia over ukraine.

[QUOTE=longhornfan1234]Honestly... I think we could defeat Russia handily.[/QUOTE]
agreed, the gap in military power between the US and russia is considerable.

I think the US could take russia and china combined. But it would force us to fully go to war as a nation, which we really havent done since WWII. Its not worth fighting russia over ukraine

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green][B]We've lost thousands of soldiers and spent trillions of dollars to fail to keep Iraq and Afghanistan under control and some of you think we can deal with Russia?[/B] This is idiotic. Of course Obama wants nothing to do with war with Russia. That would be because he's sane. We only attack Russia if they attack us. They have a huge, powerful military. They're far away (unless you live in Palin's house). A large population. Nukes. You want World War III? No one advocating military action should be pretending to care when soldiers die or the debt explodes. Madness.[/QUOTE]
The United States is clearly stronger than Russia, by any relevant measurement.

This is a politically incorrect statement but the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, have been very low intensity. I remember reading a study somewhere that less than 1% of all americans have been affected by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in a considerable way. Eg. fighting in combat or having someone in the nuclear family unit fight in them.

That is very different from WW2

US needs to give them some sanctions. They just murdered almost 300 people on that plane.

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]The United States is clearly stronger than Russia, by any relevant measurement.

This is a politically incorrect statement but the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, have been very low intensity. I remember reading a study somewhere that less than 1% of all americans have been affected by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in a considerable way. Eg. fighting in combat or having someone in the nuclear family unit fight in them.

That is very different from WW2[/QUOTE]
You completely missed the point. We have more military strength than anyone. That doesn't mean we could deal with Russia. You really think it's smart to overthrow their government and then nation-build like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan? That's a good use of lives and resources? 1% of our population is a few million people, and that's a heck of a lot of people.

[QUOTE=Godzuki]i don't follow the worlds oil reserves and supply but i do know the arab countries, Canada, us, and i know there are many more that can probably make up for it IF the EU weren't so attached and there already being a infrastructure/reliance of supply the EU is accustomed to. No way Russia is the end all be all source for oil in the entire world...[/QUOTE]

When I mention the Strait of Hormuz, I am not talking about Russia. I'm talking Iran, Iraq and Saudia Arabia. Arab oil

[IMG]http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2012.01.04/Hormuz.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/483/cache/energy-strait-hormuz-oil-choke-point-article_48362_990x742.jpg[/IMG]


Iran is on the right in that photo. Something like 20% of the world's oil flows through here. It used to be 30% but some new pipelines have come online in the last few years. And tanker ships can't use the whole width of the strait, just a two mile section. If you sink a couple of big ships and mine those two miles, well a fifth of the world's oil just went offline. Which probably brings China into your war.

This is probably why we have never gone to war with Iran.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]You completely missed the point. We have more military strength than anyone. That doesn't mean we could deal with Russia[B][B]. You really think it's smart to overthrow their government and then nation-build like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan?[/B][/B] That's a good use of lives and resources? 1% of our population is a few million people, and that's a heck of a lot of people.[/QUOTE]
Certainly not over ukraine, but yes there is a point russia could push it to where fighting them makes sense. We should be avoiding fighting russia until the cross the line of attacking one of our current defense obligations. We should also stop expanding Nato eastward.

Also in what universe would the US be seeking to destroy russia's government, or vice versa. It would obviously be a limited war. Eg most wars throughout history where both governments survive the war.


[QUOTE]That doesn't mean we could deal with Russia[/QUOTE]
Certainly better than they could deal with us.

Also I dont believe a war between nuclear powers automatically means that a nuclear exchange is eminent.

[QUOTE=step_back]Not as easy for Europe to do this. Various countries in the EU run on Russian Energy and Germany has something like 6000 business linked to Russia. Placing sanctions would **** themselves over too economically. It has nothing to do with growing a pair.[/QUOTE]

Time for Europe to start being more intelligent when it comes to technology in the O&G biz. Too much propaganda these days but hey, you want to stop sucking the natural gas titties of Russia, start fracking and get some infrastructure to support it.

The opportunity exists in the UK. Citizens just need to stop being dumb and using a manipulative documentary as truth.

[QUOTE=longhornfan1234]Another no substance post from Kevin. :facepalm[/QUOTE]
It was direct and to the point and not a word was wasted. Pithy even.


If you want you can refer to my other posts.

[QUOTE=Godzuki]we'd wreck them handily...we'd just never do it. and we'd maybe take some big shots too but we have way more fire power and tech. our military expenditure dwarfs everyone.

America is weary of war. problem is everyone knows it and they abuse it... while ISIS is taking over Iraq, Iran had been meddling in Iraq/Syria/etc for a long time knowing we were already involved in IRaq/Afghanistan, Putin basically playing chicken with us and the EU, and its really a situation where the world leaders know we don't have the appetite for war anymore, despite the firepower/arms to destroy everyone.

which obviously necessitates shit like sanctions, politics with other nations to get involved with us, etc. type of stuff where they're weary of it too since they helped us in Iraq/Afghanistan as well...and we helped in Syria.

still doesn't change the perspective of us crying every day while watching Ukraine who chose the west over Russia gets abused, watching a airliner downed by Russian separatists with Putin's obvious involvement and ruining the crime scene along with blatant lies/propaganda that insults the worlds intelligence while the world just watches...making us all poosies vs 1 clever asshole running a mass propaganda'd nation.[/QUOTE]
:roll:

Bird pooped on Putin at opening of WWI monument

[IMG]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le1MgNykc4g[/IMG]