Here's what I don't get about attempts to diminish Jordan

[QUOTE=Kvnzhangyay]While its not true that he faced weak competition and weak athletes (the talent base is more or less the same nowadays), its definitely not true he was dominating Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq in the 2000s. In his wizard days Jordan was pretty much just chucking it up[/QUOTE]

[U]He's talking about in 1996-1998[/U]...

that's when a mid-30's Jordan was considered the best player in the world by everybody, AHEAD of Shaq (who had been to the Finals in 1995 and was in his 6th season in 1998)... In contrast, when Shaq went to the Lakers from 2000-2004, Kobe was widely considered INFERIOR to Shaq.

In 1997 and 1998, Jordan caught Duncan's first and second seasons - He never got to play Duncan in the playoffs, but Jordan did defeat Utah in 1998 and that Utah team had beaten a 56-win, Popovich/Duncan/Robinson Spurs team in 5 games in the Western Semis, and then they SWEPT Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers super-team (Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Exel, and Kobe, to go along with Elden Campbell, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher and Rick Fox)... Jordan beat that Utah team twice.

Here's a decent video quality highlights of MJ vs Popovich and Duncan's Spurs in 1998 regular season.. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQePkBnD0vo[/url]

From that game, here's 35-year old Jordan still with hangtime, making it look easy over contesting Robinson and Duncan.

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Finishing_Over_Duncan_a_10e37bb5b61b627dcd2e1170b8ae854f.gif[/IMG]


Here's a much younger Jordan dunking on Robinson and getting hit in the face... More dunks of Jordan over Robinson and other all-time great centers [URL="http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=40382395#p40382395"]here[/URL].

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Hard_on_Robinson_f5b81b99e4f7c61e02dbac531ed53f11.gif[/IMG]


as a 40-year old, Jordan dunked on Duncan in the all-star game..

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Michael_Jordan_Dunks_On_Tim_Du_c637e9b63274127bb966a04f34e07da9.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Psileas]Maybe, but there's also nobody whose combination of dominance and winning matches Russell's either or Kareem's or even Wilt's, despite the relatively few titles. [B]The point is, there is no reason to believe that, beyond a doubt, Jordan's combination has to be the best there ever was. It is up there, but how exactly can someone prove that this is the best?
If an offensively dominant player beats a defensively dominant one every time, shouldn't this be the case with Wilt vs Russell, as well?
And I disagree that Kareem didn't impact the game as much, except if you add media promotion and fame. [/B]They changed the rules to hinder his dominance in the NCAA - and still failed miserably, since only a fool would believe that banning the dunk would have a wide effect on a player that talented. He was as all-around a center as there ever was, led the league in 4 different categories (and was very good at his position in 2 more), you could trust him to take the last shot or even the last FT's.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

MJ stans trigger a backlash with the mythology around MJ. He is one of several GOAT candidates. People act as if he is basketball's version of Gretzky, though. That is a "clear GOAT" and even in that case some people argue Lemieux as the BOAT, even if his GOAT case is weak due to health issues.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]You mean his statistics born out of the context of high pace offenses in an era of leaguewide defensive inefficiency.

:confusedshrug:

The fact that stating this simple truth will ruffle the feathers of Jordan mythologists just goes to show you the power of his media driven narrative that thrived unchecked for so long.[/QUOTE]
You Ethered so much it's a wonder why you keep coming back

I've been watching the NBA since 1977 and IMO, MJ exceeds the gaudy stats. There's just something about the competitive spirit, the cockiness, the confidence - that no one else I've seen has. Combine the game with the mental and he's GOAT to me.

I've also been privileged to live through the heyday of tennis too - Connors, Borg, McEnroe, Sampras and hands-down, Roger Federer is the best I've seen play - just the best combination of talent, technical (strokes) and movement. If he was mentally strong, he'd be unbeatable.

[QUOTE=juju151111]You Ethered so much it's a wonder why you keep coming back[/QUOTE]

Link?

I hate MJ but I have him at about #3 or #4. And that's impact on the court. Who I'd build around type of thing.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]People who say Jordan is not the GOAT, is the same thing as people who still say the earth is flat.[/QUOTE]

Nahhh.

I mean, are you gonna say Shakespeare is the best writer? Leonardo is the best artist? Einstein is the smartest man to live? That is what everyone says, but it's not true. It's true enough that you'd have to be kind of a douchebag to confront someone on it... but I think it's very arguable that MJ is on a tier above all other NBA players. Seriously, saying someone is GOAT is like saying you got... MJ tier then the rest and that's BS. MJ is top tier, sure, but it is indistinguishable when it comes to the greatest players.

Kareem, Bill Russell, and Larry Bird (lol sorry I still feel that way) all have an argument to be GOAT. Larry's argument is that he didn't have that dude who was a 1st or 2nd tier great on his squad and still played amazing in a stacked era.

Magic, IMO, doesn't... Wilt IMO doesn't.

What MJ has is the most modern dominance. Peerless dominance, but I saw you saying Shaq dominated a weak era. MJ's era was just as 'weak' as Shaq's if you look at when he was winning.

-Smak

[QUOTE=rmt]I've been watching the NBA since 1977 and IMO, MJ exceeds the gaudy stats. There's just something about the competitive spirit, the cockiness, the confidence - that no one else I've seen has. Combine the game with the mental and he's GOAT to me.
[/QUOTE]

may i ask how old you are

[QUOTE=rmt]I've been watching the NBA since 1977 and IMO, MJ exceeds the gaudy stats. There's just something about the competitive spirit, the cockiness, the confidence - that no one else I've seen has. Combine the game with the mental and he's GOAT to me.
[/QUOTE]

may i ask how old you are

[QUOTE=played0ut]may i ask how old you are[/QUOTE]

51. Why?

[QUOTE=rmt]51. Why?[/QUOTE]

Watching since '77 is a mighty long time. Wouldn't expect many ISH posters to be above 25, actually.

[QUOTE=Cousin Oliver]I think for him he treated it the way many do their favorite music. The music people fall in love with from 15-20 is often the music they think was the best when they're 50.

For him that was when he loved the game most, he probably associates that period with his coming of age as a man and a player. Like I said previously, it was a list based on nostalgia.[/QUOTE]


A lot of truth in this statement. Being 41 now, I reflect back on that 15-20 year old pocket of time where everything in life seemed to "click", and the music and culture from that era just coincided perfectly. However, using music as an example, the case can be made that the artist promoted back then had a bit more positive passion in what they were doing, when compared to today's "get paid at all cost" type of artists that we see today.

As for MJ, I give big props to the younger generation who actually take the time to do the research themselves about Jordan's game and coming to the same conclusion about him that us older cats did, without the benefit of nostalgia or media influence.

Greatness is greatness no matter what generation it comes from. The fact that we now have instant access to stats, data, full games and video to back up how great MJ was makes most of these haters look straight silly IMO. But hey, they're entertaining too so....

:cheers:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Who doesn't have MJ in their top 5?[/QUOTE]
I don't have MJ in my top 5, but rather my first tier. Includes 8 players.

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Shaq
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Oscar

Edit: I've considered moving Magic to the second tier. Done it a couple times and it felt weird.

[QUOTE=Graviton]I don't know how you can discredit...

10 Scoring titles
5 MVPs
1xDPOY
6/6 Rings and 6 FMVPs
14x All Star
10x All NBA 1st team
9x All D 1st team
2x Olympic Gold Medal
NCAA National Champion[/QUOTE]

I believe the haters call it "mythology". :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Graviton]I don't know how you can discredit...

10 Scoring titles
[B]5 MVPs[/B]
1xDPOY
[B]6/6 Rings and 6 FMVPs[/B]
14x All Star
10x All NBA 1st team
9x All D 1st team
[B]2x Olympic Gold Medal
NCAA National Champion[/B][/QUOTE]
Not trying to discredit Jordan; he's amazing. But the bolded are actually team accomplishments.

With all-star appearances... not sure when fan voting had an input there? But regardless, that's hardly a measure of greatness. Big deal. That means Jordan was a top 20 player 14 times. Show longevity of being great. But by no means does it show him as the GOAT.

[QUOTE=kshutts1]Not trying to discredit Jordan; he's amazing. But the bolded are actually team accomplishments.

With all-star appearances... not sure when fan voting had an input there? But regardless, that's hardly a measure of greatness. Big deal. That means Jordan was a top 20 player 14 times. Show longevity of being great. But by no means does it show him as the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

The stat sheet really only tells 1/3 of Jordan's story anyway.

Things like beating Magic for the first championship, winning the 4th on father's day after coming back, game winner to ice the Cavs in '89, sweeping the Pistons (finally) in '91, flu game, game winner to win the title as his last shot with the Bulls ... stuff like that is probably what makes his career that much more memorable.

[QUOTE=kshutts1]Not trying to discredit Jordan; he's amazing. [B]But the bolded are actually team accomplishments.[/B]

With all-star appearances... not sure when fan voting had an input there? But regardless, that's hardly a measure of greatness. Big deal. That means Jordan was a top 20 player 14 times. Show longevity of being great. But by no means does it show him as the GOAT.[/QUOTE]

Remind us again how many rings the bulls won before and after Jordan played for them? :rolleyes:

Dominated weak era

if he's GOAT then Mikan is top 3 :facepalm

[QUOTE=dubeta]Dominated weak era

if he's GOAT then Mikan is top 3 :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Says the guy who looks up to Bran, who adamantly says Jordan is GOAT and wears no.23 because Jordan (Bran's words here) "is the greatest". :lol

[QUOTE=dubeta]Dominated weak era

if he's GOAT then Mikan is top 3 :facepalm[/QUOTE]

And lebron is [B][SIZE="7"]2/5[/SIZE][/B]. :banana:

[QUOTE=Asukal]And lebron is [B][SIZE="7"]2/5[/SIZE][/B]. :banana:[/QUOTE]

kobe's 2/7 shaqs 3/6 and duncan is 3/6 as well so what?

[QUOTE=Asukal]Remind us again how many rings the bulls won before and after Jordan played for them? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I don't see how that's relevant. But we all know the answer is zero.

[QUOTE=dubeta]kobe's 2/7 shaqs 3/6 and duncan is 3/6 as well so what?[/QUOTE]

OHHHHH! He mad. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=kshutts1][B]I don't see how that's relevant.[/B] But we all know the answer is zero.[/QUOTE]

:biggums:

[QUOTE=dubeta]kobe's 2/7 shaqs 3/6 and duncan is 3/6 as well so what?[/QUOTE]

LeBron fans and their 5th grade education :oldlol: Lets help them out:

Kobe and the Lakers have made 7 finals, Kobe and the Lakers have won 5 of them.

Shaq and the teams he's played for have made 6 finals, Shaq and the teams he's played for have won 4 of them.

Duncan and the Spurs have made 6 finals, Duncan and the Spurs have won 5 of them.

Boilded down:
Duncan - 5/6
Kobe - 5/7
Shaq - 4/6

5/6, 5/7, 4/6 > 2/5

Here's Jordan at 38 years old in his first meeting with Garnett..

From the 4:00 minute mark until the 5:20 mark, Jordan goes 1-on-1 versus Garnett 5 successive possessions in a row and scores each time.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4[/url]

At this point in the season, Jordan was averaging 25ppg, 5, and 5 (1 of 3 guys in the league doing that), before his knees got worse.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]LeBron fans and their 5th grade education :oldlol: Lets help them out:

Kobe and the Lakers have made 7 finals, Kobe and the Lakers have won 5 of them.

Shaq and the teams he's played for have made 6 finals, Shaq and the teams he's played for have won 4 of them.

Duncan and the Spurs have made 6 finals, Duncan and the Spurs have won 5 of them.

Boilded down:
Duncan - 5/6
Kobe - 5/7
Shaq - 4/6

5/6, 5/7, 4/6 > 2/5[/QUOTE]

Horry 7/7 u fail

[QUOTE=dubeta]Horry 7/7 u fail[/QUOTE]

Horry isn't relevant to this discussion. Are you conceding? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Horry isn't relevant to this discussion. Are you conceding? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

:facepalm

Horry and the teams he played for are 7 out of 7 in NBA championships, im using your logic

[QUOTE=dubeta]:facepalm

Horry and the teams he played for are 7 out of 7 in NBA championships, im using your logic[/QUOTE]

My logic pertains to winning championships, the same logic the poster you quoted was using.

Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan were all-star caliber players when they won their rings. Horry was not.

Damn this is like target practice :oldlol:

[QUOTE=3ball]Here's Jordan at 38 years old in his first meeting with Garnett..

From the 4:00 minute mark until the 5:20 mark, Jordan goes 1-on-1 versus Garnett 5 successive possessions in a row and scores each time.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4[/url]

At this point in the season, Jordan was averaging 25ppg, 5, and 5 (1 of 3 guys in the league doing that), before his knees got worse.[/QUOTE]

You realize that at Garnett's age Jordan was still sleeping in a bunk bed and playing against other kids right??

Bottom line, people, human kind is very limited in what it can process, especially for things that they never saw. People tend to focus on one thing at a time, and not the whole picture, while dismissing the things that contradict their point of view.

Another thing is being in the moment. Remember the thread saying that Lebron returning to Cleveland was a bigger moment than the Jordan icon returning to the NBA. They're so lost in the current moment, that even they though they weren't alive then, they are convinced that this big moment in their life is huge, much bigger than anything else. How many people would dare say that now?

Reminds me of watching a game, Reggie Miller vs Penny, clutch shots after clutch shots. At the time, that was really big, seeing it live. Must be one of the most unbelievable moments ever in the NBA, meanwhile if you show it now, after the fact, not in the moment, it's like whatever. I'm always reminded of that when I see a young person getting really excited after someone hits a game winning shot. To me it's just another game winner, to a young person, it's pure excitement and in awe of the player who hit the shot.

It's perspective too. One of the many things that I've seen from teens is putting down big time players that played before their time, as if they were average players. Players who were superstars, but never won a championship. That's always been amazing, how a player could be at the top of world, admired for his ability, and then they are looked at as not being that good by people who never saw them play, and using it as an excuse as to why their era are better. An example of that would be Durant if he never wins a championship, I could clearly see teenagers 15 years from now saying, "Who did Lebron beat, Durant?" In a he's a scrub tone. That's the one thing that always interest me, that change in perspective.

[QUOTE=RRR3]His statistics are clearly better than most players ever, and his playoff stats are equally ridiculous. It's kind of silly to me when people act like Jordan being amazing is some media driven narrative. Now I didn't watch him play, so I can't make the arguments many here can, but if you research his career, I don't see how you can't see a guy with probably the best case for GOAT or at least top 3-5.[/QUOTE]

Holy shit!?!? Never watched Jordan play and not being a bitter little bitch that feels deprived for having been born too late to witness his airness?

This could be an ISH first.

[QUOTE=Asukal]:biggums:[/QUOTE]
I can think of no legitimate argument that would say that since the Bulls before Jordan, made up of completely different people, and the Bulls after Jordan, also made up of completely different people, didn't win a title that Jordan = GOAT. There is, literally, zero relevance to that argument.

If I want to "stoop" to your level, the Bulls also never won a title without Pippen. So is he also the GOAT?

Dick Bradley, Bill Bradley, Dave Debusschere, Walt Frazier and Willis Reed are also the GOAT, since the Knicks never won a title without them.

So, now that we've put that completely irrelevant argument to rest... Those bolded items were team accomplishments. Last I checked, it's literally impossible to win a title or a FMVP or an MVP on a terrible team.

OP joined ISH 3 years ago today. Happy anniversary.

[QUOTE=kshutts1]I can think of no legitimate argument that would say that since the Bulls before Jordan, made up of completely different people, and the Bulls after Jordan, also made up of completely different people, didn't win a title that Jordan = GOAT. There is, literally, zero relevance to that argument.

If I want to "stoop" to your level, the Bulls also never won a title without Pippen. So is he also the GOAT?

Dick Bradley, Bill Bradley, Dave Debusschere, Walt Frazier and Willis Reed are also the GOAT, since the Knicks never won a title without them.

So, now that we've put that completely irrelevant argument to rest... Those bolded items were team accomplishments. Last I checked, it's literally impossible to win a title or a FMVP or an MVP on a terrible team.[/QUOTE]

Ok genius, according to your logic there is no GOAT basketball player because the game is a team game. :hammerhead:

We should disregard a player's role on his team in winning championships since according to you it is a team game. Russell's 11 chips means nothing so he should be far down the all time list since his stats aren't very impressive. Your logic. :applause:

Jordan and maybe KAJ are the only players where you have to use things outside of their control to discredit them. To this day I've never heard a solid argument against MJ's GAME on the court.

With Russell you could say he wasn't dominant enough offensively, with Wilt you could say his numbers dropped in the playoffs, with Bird you could say he had a few underwhelming playoff runs/not enough longevity, with Magic you could say he didn't play defense good enough/not enough longevity, etc.

With MJ what could you say? He played in a weak era? Didn't win fast enough when he played with garbage teammates (just like everybody else)? His media popularity? What does that have to do with how he played on the court?

Only real thing you could bring up is his ****ups/chokes in the '95 Magic series and he still averaged 31/7/4. Elite on both sides of the court, never lost with HCA, almost never had bad series, good longevity, the best playoff career and possibly the best regular season career also. How do you really argue against that?

[QUOTE=Young X]Jordan and maybe KAJ are the only players where you have to use things outside of their control to discredit them. To this day I've never heard a solid argument against MJ's GAME on the court.

With Russell you could say he wasn't dominant enough offensively, with Wilt you could say his numbers dropped in the playoffs, with Bird you could say he had a few underwhelming playoff runs/not enough longevity, with Magic you could say he didn't play defense good enough/not enough longevity, etc.

With MJ what could you say? He played in a weak era? Didn't win fast enough when he played with garbage teammates (just like everybody else)? The media popularity? What does that have to do with how he played on the court?[/QUOTE]

KAJ had it all. Rings, Stats, Accolades, Intagibles, Longevity, etc etc. Dude was a straight up beast ever since his early days. HS champ, college champ, NBA champ. :bowdown:

[QUOTE]With Russell you could say he wasn't dominant enough offensively, with Wilt you could say his numbers dropped in the playoffs, with Bird you could say he[/QUOTE]

The Wilt stuff also is without any context. A lot of that was due to his role on the team changing, a lot of his runs being when he was no longer a big scorer and because a lot of his series were against the GOAT defender.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]You realize that at Garnett's age Jordan was still sleeping in a bunk bed and playing against other kids right??[/QUOTE]
Um KG was 25 in 2002. Getting TORCHED by near 39 year old Jordan. Keep trying to discredit though, troll.