kareem vs russell -- who is the greatest player of all time?

[QUOTE=swagga]
:biggums: are you for real son? wtf did I just read?
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That is exactly your problem you don't read! And I'm not going to say my bad, I forgot you don't read. Jordan had great influence on who stayed on those teams. Horace Grant, Corzine, Will Purdue were all given one way tickets out. Brad Sellers and Stacey King lost their confidence before they were booted too.
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Did players [B]audition [/B]before jordan? LOL that's some utter crap. [/quote]
Well being that you "jus, don't know" Craig Hodges was semi-released from the team (amazingly he could be in the NBA three point shootout, but not allowed on any team) because of his comments on Jordan's politics. Nothing to do with basketball. Auditioning is lesser part of getting in on the team.

[quote]
I didn't even talk about big vs wing defensive impact...big man's game and all. Jordan is phenomenal as he is the only GOAT level player that is under 6'6'. All the others are 6'9'+ (bird,magic,russell, kareem, lebron - argue all you want, duncan, hakeem, wilt). Or whistles and special refereeing, lebron gets some but it's not on the same level with jordan. [/quote]

Jordan dominated the era of great bigs. The greatest skilled big and the most dominant big were included in that package. Ironically, the Bulls perimeter defense had more impact than the many great defensive bigs of Jordan's era did.
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Jordan is just a GOAT level player with the GOAT media. That's what set him appart and that's why we hear this constant crap about him being an untouchable god. He isn't. [B]He had his fair share of bad days. [/B]Bad shooting. Bad leadership. Bad whistles for defenders.[/QUOTE]
Actually he didn't have his fair share. He had far less bad important games than anybody. In fact I will guarantee you that I can show you three or four times as many bad series/games by any other top player, even second best isn't going to look good next to Jordan. That was his most remarkable trait. He always came to play. You can't name two series where he was outplayed. I doubt he's ever cost his team a series. There aren't three series where another player played better than him. He's definitely different in that regards.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]TEAMs do win rings. That is why MJ was 1-9 in his first ten playoff games, couldn't beat the Pistons in three straight post-seasons, and didn't win a ring until he had the best supporting rosters in the league.

That is why Russell's Celtics, the most stacked rosters of all-time, and with the most clutch supporting (and LEADING players, like Havlicek in '68 and '69) won 11 rings. Hell, his '58 team BARELY lost with him missing over half of the series, and his team playing better without him, than with him.

Kareem? Was the best player in the league in the entire decade of the 70's. And played on TWO teams that went to the Finals, and won ONE ring...in his 10 prime seasons. He also was swept with HCA in one, lost another with HCA in the first round, was beaten with stacked rosters, TWICE, by a Seattle team with one borderline HOF player, and missed the playoffs entirely in two straight seasons.

Shaq? Swept SIX times in the playoffs. Hell, he went 1-8 against Greg Ostertag, and was awful in one of their series H2H's.

Bird? Lost with HCA SEVEN times, and was either ordinary, or awful in most of them. Hell, he won a ring in a Finals in which he averaged 15 ppg on a .419 FG%.

Hakeem? Wasn't even considered a Top-5 player for the vast majority of his career, and won ONE MVP in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off. In 18 seasons he played on FIVE teams that won 50+ games, with a high of 58 wins. He only went to four Conference Finals, three Finals, and won two rings in seasons in which MJ took the year off, or his TEAMMATES overwhelmed Shaq's. He also missed the playoffs HALF of his career, and was wiped out in the First Round EIGHT times.

Kobe? Without question, the WORST Finals' performer of all of the Top-10 players of all-time. Single handedly shot his team's out of the Finals in '04 and '08. And his last games in all of his Finals are among the worst of all-time.

[B]You may not realize this but your constant picking stats to use against other great players tend to wear on people. I have always been a big Wilt fan, and hope that you try to be a little more fair in the way you post things.

Wilts only weakness was his free throw shooting, but you can't even admit that. You change it to Wilt had a greater impact at the free throw line than the great free throw shooters did because he shot so many. When it comes to Wilt you only look at the positive, How about the negative. All those free throws that he missed had to cost a game or two. Maybe even a Championship or 2,3 or 4. Wilt had 4 seasons where he missed more free thows in a season than Larry Bird missed his whole career. Season of 624, 527, 553 and 579. Bird missed 511 in thirteen years. Wilt missed 5805.

Kareem, Russell, MJ, Magic, Bird. What do they have in common. None of them were Historically bad at any part of the game. Wilt for all of his greatness, was by far the worst ever among the great plays. None of these players were perfect, but Come on Man.[/B]

[QUOTE=colts19]
Wilts only weakness was his free throw shooting, but you can't even admit that. You change it to Wilt had a greater impact at the free throw line than the great free throw shooters did because he shot so many. When it comes to Wilt you only look at the positive, How about the negative. All those free throws that he missed had to cost a game or two. Maybe even a Championship or 2,3 or 4. Wilt had 4 seasons where he missed more free thows in a season than Larry Bird missed his whole career. Season of 624, 527, 553 and 579. Bird missed 511 in thirteen years. Wilt missed 5805.

Kareem, Russell, MJ, Magic, Bird. What do they have in common. None of them were Historically bad at any part of the game. Wilt for all of his greatness, was by far the worst ever among the great plays. None of these players were perfect, but Come on Man.[/B][/QUOTE]

I think Lazeruss responds to the onslaught against Wilt. People who are trying to take everything away from Wilt. Even you are talking about his weakness when he arguably had more extraordinary strengths than any other player ever.

Russell was a bad foul shooter too, in case you didn't know. Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I think Lazeruss responds to the onslaught against Wilt. People who are trying to take everything away from Wilt. Even you are talking about his weakness when he arguably had more extraordinary strengths than any other player ever.

Russell was a bad foul shooter too, in case you didn't know. Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders.[/QUOTE]

I think he causes a lot of the onslaught against Wilt. I agree Russell was a bad free throw shooter, but it didn't cost his team championships like Wilt did.

Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders. But they weren't the worst ever. Its not even about that, its about how he twist facts to degrade every other player but will not apply the same standard to Wilt.

Like I said I am a big Wilt fan. But if one of those guys went 1 for 11 from the line, and his team lost a championship. He would be ripping said player.

[QUOTE=colts19]I think he causes a lot of the onslaught against Wilt. I agree Russell was a bad free throw shooter, but it didn't cost his team championships like Wilt did.

Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders. But they weren't the worst ever. [B]Its not even about that, its about how he twist facts to degrade every other player but will not apply the same standard to Wilt.
[/B]
Like I said I am a big Wilt fan. But if one of those guys went 1 for 11 from the line, and his team lost a championship. He would be ripping said player.[/QUOTE]

It's exactly what anti-Wilt guys do for Wilt vs the others. Honestly, I don't see many who can be seen as impartial enough to blame Laz for being so without being hypocrites.
Btw, not all fields can realistically count the same. As bad a FT shooter as Wilt was, the impact of bad FT shooting usually doesn't come close to matching the impact of bad FG shooting and bad defense. 3 bad defensive plays that will lead to 3 opponent layups count as much as 6 missed FT's and so do 3 missed FG's by someone who shot 7-20 instead of 10-20.
So, if there was a game when Wilt missed 6 FT's and his team lost by 1 but we took all the potential (and realistic) plays that could have won the game for Wilt's team, there would be dozens of bad plays to attribute to just about everyone out there and most ignore just about all of them save for Wilt's FT's (and, yes, obviously FT's are the technically easiest part and Wilt was among the worst at it, but he was similarly among the best at the toughest part of it - FG's, which more than evens out).

[QUOTE]Like I said I am a big Wilt fan. But if one of those guys went 1 for 11 from the line, and his team lost a championship. He would be ripping said player.[/QUOTE]

Maybe he would, and it's an actual fact that some have blamed Wilt for this (so, they are as bad as Laz in your scenario), but he would be wrong (and so are they). That game was a blowout, the final score doesn't do justice, and even the final score still wouldn't be covered by even a perfect 11-11 FT shooting.

[QUOTE=colts19][B]I think he causes a lot of the onslaught against Wilt.[/B] I agree Russell was a bad free throw shooter, but it didn't cost his team championships like Wilt did.

Magic and Bird weren't good one on one defenders. But they weren't the worst ever. Its not even about that, its about how he twist facts to degrade every other player but will not apply the same standard to Wilt.

Like I said I am a big Wilt fan. But if one of those guys went 1 for 11 from the line, and his team lost a championship. He would be ripping said player.[/QUOTE]
Disagree entirely, there are people who refuse to give Wilt the credit and praise he is due as a GOAT candidate and try to slam him for numerous fabrications and exaggerations whether they are aware of Laz's existence or not. Take Bill Simmons for example. The guy only told half truths and made up criticisms out of thin air in order to slam the legacy of Wilt to prop up the legacy of Bill Russell, not that that should have even been necessary. But he did it, and the book was unfortunately a huge success and people who don't know any better trust his BS, as I hear it spread everywhere on the net and in other sports writers articles, not just here on ISH. We need more fans like Laz, who are not afraid to challenge fabricated or exaggerated criticisms towards players like Wilt.

How does every critic of Wilt's free throw percentage forget Bill Russell's?

Also, most of them haven't got a clue about the 1 to make 2 and 2 to make 3 rule in Wilt's era, and how that dramatically increased the effectiveness of guys who weren't great at the line like Wilt and Russell vs how the game is played today. They got extra chances to make a free throw when they missed. They weren't "costing teams championships" with their free throw shooting.

If Wilt goes to the line for a 3 point And-1 style play and he misses the first shot ... he gets another try. Even as a lowly 50% free throw shooter he's statistically likely to always convert on 3 point plays. It might show up on a stat sheet as 1 for 2 ... but he technically was likely to be "perfect" on completing the play and getting the maximum amount of points possible on 3 point opportunities.

If Wilt goes to the line for 2 free throws getting fouled before a shot, he's got not just 2 chances to make points, but 3. If he misses any one of his first two shots (or both) he's still got a 3rd chance to hit a shot. If he's a 50% free throw shooter, it means he (over the course of his career) averaged 1.5 points every time he was fouled before a shot. Even if it shows up as 3 for 6. This is huge in increasing his impact at the line, his percentages don't reflect this.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Disagree entirely, there are people who refuse to give Wilt the credit and praise he is due as a GOAT candidate and try to slam him for numerous fabrications and exaggerations whether they are aware of Laz's existence or not. Take Bill Simmons for example. The guy only told half truths and made up criticisms out of thin air in order to slam the legacy of Wilt to prop up the legacy of Bill Russell, not that that should have even been necessary. But he did it, and the book was unfortunately a huge success and people who don't know any better trust his BS, as I hear it spread everywhere on the net and in other sports writers articles, not just here on ISH. We need more fans like Laz, who are not afraid to challenge fabricated or exaggerated criticisms towards players like Wilt.[/QUOTE]

Lets be honest, guys like Deuce, Millwad, and the small force of recent anti-Wilt band wagoners only disparage Wilt to antagonize Laz. Then you have the army of one-line-heroes, who again are only there to antagonize Lazerus.

I can only think of one knowledgeable and influential anti-Wilt poster that was here before Jlauber/Lazerus, but as far I can tell he no longer posts here - and hasn't for several years.

There are a couple guys I'm for which I'm not entirely sure of their motives, but I wouldn't necessarily call them Wilt bashers.

My only real problem with Lazerus(though I stopped reading his posts long ago) is that he's constantly disparaging other players(especially Bird and Hakeem).

He's a very knowledgeable guy when it comes to stats from that era, but he could do a better job at sharing that knowledge.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]My only real problem with Lazerus(though I stopped reading his posts long ago) is that he's constantly disparaging other players(especially Bird and Hakeem).

He's a very knowledgeable guy when it comes to stats from that era, but he could do a better job at sharing that knowledge.[/QUOTE]

I remember excitedly reading jlauber's posts when I found them for the first time.. Now its just blah blah blah, especially after so much of his shit has been exposed.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Lets be honest, guys like Deuce, Millwad, and the small force of recent anti-Wilt band wagoners only disparage Wilt to antagonize Laz. Then you have the army of one-line-heroes, who again are only there to antagonize Lazerus.

I can only think of one knowledgeable and influential anti-Wilt poster that was here before Jlauber/Lazerus, but as far I can tell he no longer posts here - and hasn't for several years.

There are a couple guys I'm for which I'm not entirely sure of their motives, but I wouldn't necessarily call them Wilt bashers.[/QUOTE]
True for ish, but from my YT channel and accounts on other boards I encounter a lot of other people that are dishonestly critical of wilt or wilts era elsewhere on the net. Fatal9 is the poster you speak of btw, is he not? The guy who used to call Wilt clumsy looking and uncoordinated in the post due to his own upload of wilts missed shots in the 64 and 67 game halves?

[QUOTE=DatAsh][B]My only real problem with Lazerus(though I stopped reading his posts long ago) is that he's constantly disparaging other players(especially Bird and Hakeem).[/B]

He's a very knowledgeable guy when it comes to stats from that era, but he could do a better job at sharing that knowledge.[/QUOTE]

That's what I was saying until everything got twisted around.

Jlauber is a poser. His low understanding of the game apart from stats is even more evident when he said Russell didn't do anything in that 1969 4thQ footage. The only reason why a lot of people here disparage Wilt now is because of him. Good job lauber. :applause:

MJ

Please. Anyone who has teammate inside top 10 all-time on his championship run doesn't deserve to be the GOAT

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]True for ish, but from my YT channel and accounts on other boards I encounter a lot of other people that are dishonestly critical of wilt or wilts era elsewhere on the net. Fatal9 is the poster you speak of btw, is he not? The guy who used to call Wilt clumsy looking and uncoordinated in the post due to his own upload of wilts missed shots in the 64 and 67 game halves?[/QUOTE]
I don't think its Fatal9. Fatal9 was gone before Datash came aboard. Fatal9 seemed to go shortly after I arrived and he was more like a basher. More than likely he's talking about ShaqAttack or Regul8r who weren't haters of Wilt but would sometimes seemingly underestimate him.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I don't think its Fatal9. Fatal9 was gone before Datash came aboard. Fatal9 seemed to go shortly after I arrived and he was more like a basher. More than likely he's talking about ShaqAttack or Regul8r who weren't haters of Wilt but would sometimes seemingly underestimate him.[/QUOTE]

I was talking about Fatal9 :)

[QUOTE=DatAsh]I was talking about Fatal9 :)[/QUOTE]
My bad. You obviously used some adjectives that threw us off. And he left before you were posting. Did you lurk for a couple of years???

Have to ask, are you fatal9?

Fatal9.. :bowdown:

ShaqAttack :bowdown:

And me in the Abraham Lincoln Gimmick.. Ah good days.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Fatal9.. :bowdown:

ShaqAttack :bowdown:

And me in the Abraham Lincoln Gimmick.. Ah good days.[/QUOTE]

Right, you as Abe.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Right, you as Abe.[/QUOTE]

Didn't think I got that old English tribe on deck did ya?

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Didn't think I got that old English tribe on deck did ya?[/QUOTE]
HA but who knows.