[QUOTE=3ball]No, I stopped watching after the Bulls got a 3-0 lead in the series.
.[/QUOTE]
You missed the GOAT getting locked up.
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[QUOTE=3ball]No, I stopped watching after the Bulls got a 3-0 lead in the series.
.[/QUOTE]
You missed the GOAT getting locked up.
All I took from this is that if Kobe's peak play occurred in Jordan's peak era, he would do decent, but no where near what Jordan could do.
[QUOTE=9erempiree]
[IMG]http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/mikelikesmike.jpg[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]
:roll:
:roll:
[QUOTE=3ball][IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4859abb3d05a00fee786a5fc2c5ec4d1.gif[/IMG]
Drexler with the right-to-left crossover in traffic, crazy lefty finish... perfect [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360900][u]navigational efficiency[/u][/url].. how many guys today are covering ground like that - that greek kid might have the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354072][u]Elgin-Step[/u][/url] down but he doesn't have this kind of shot-creating skill or ability.
Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, Eddie Jones, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOJQOMEJ4Y][u]Ray Allen[/u][/url]... that's just from 1996-1998 yet it's enough to destroy Kobe's competition... and I barely got started.[/QUOTE]
Gary Payton is not a shooting guard.
But aside from that, 2000s era top tier talent >>> 90s by quite a bit
Dwayne wade
Allen iverson
Tracy mcgrady
Vince carter
Manu ginobili
Ray allen
All with their peak/primes in the 2000s.. 90s guys past Clyde were bums in comparison.
[QUOTE=KobesFinger]
How are you going to include his teammate as his competition? My list is 03-05, and what do you mean I also had to include Redd? Was he not a 2 guard in the 2000s?
And as I've said I could include LeBron and he's the best player in either list, and I forgot Melo/Durant.
[/QUOTE]
Pippen is included, because we're comparing ALL wing talent from the 1996-1998 period to other periods... we're comparing eras.
btw, if your list is from 03-05', then you can't include durant... you can include lebron/melo, but they are only rookies in 2004, and not all-star-caliber - lebron shot 48% TS in 2004 and missed the playoffs.
and if you are going to use 2nd year players, then i can use Kobe, who was an all-star and in his 2nd season in 1998, while Iverson was averaging 24 ppg.
1996 Scottie Pippen................ 2005 Lebron James
1996 Grant Hill...................... 2003 Tracy McGrady
1996 Penny Hardaway............ 2005 Dwayne Wade
1996 Clyde Drexler................ 2005 Carmelo Anthony
1996 Gary Payton.................. 2005 Vince Carter
1998 Kobe Bryant............ ......2005 Paul Pierce
1998 Allen Iverson.................2003 Allen Iverson
1996 Mitch Richmond.............. 2005 Gilbert Arenas
1998 Latrell Spreewell.............2005 Michael Redd
1998 Eddie Jones................... ?????
The only matchup your list wins is McGrady and Iverson.
[QUOTE=3ball]Pippen is included, because we're comparing ALL wing talent from the 1996-1998 period to other periods... we're comparing eras.
btw, if your list is from 03-05', then you can't include durant... you can include lebron/melo, but they are only rookies in 2004, and not all-star-caliber - lebron shot 48% TS in 2004 and missed the playoffs.
and if you are going to use 2nd year players, then i can use Kobe, who was an all-star and in his 2nd season in 1998, while Iverson was averaging 24 ppg.
1996 Scottie Pippen................ 2005 Lebron James
1996 Grant Hill...................... 2003 Tracy McGrady
1996 Penny Hardaway............ 2005 Dwayne Wade
1996 Clyde Drexler................ 2005 Carmelo Anthony
1996 Gary Payton.................. 2005 Vince Carter
1998 Kobe Bryant............ ......2005 Paul Pierce
1998 Allen Iverson.................2003 Allen Iverson
1996 Mitch Richmond.............. 2005 Gilbert Arenas
1998 Latrell Spreewell.............2005 Michael Redd
1998 Eddie Jones................... ?????
The only matchup your list wins is McGrady and Iverson.[/QUOTE]
05 LeBron averaged 27/7/7, better than anybody in the 90s. And are you going to really sit there and say 2nd year Kobe is better than prime Paul Pierce? Kobe was still a bench player in 1998, if you include him on your list that shows how weak the 90s was in terms of swingmen
[QUOTE=tpols]
Gary Payton is not a shooting guard.
But aside from that, 2000s era top tier talent >>> 90s by quite a bit
Dwayne wade
Allen iverson
Tracy mcgrady
Vince carter
Manu ginobili
Ray allen
[/QUOTE]
Dwayne wade........ Scottie Pippen
Allen iverson......... Gary Payton
Tracy mcgrady...... Grant Hill
Vince carter.......... Clyde Drexler
Manu ginobili ........ Mitch Richmond
Ray allen.............. Latrell Sprewell
How is the right side not better, especially considering Jordan played against Ray Allen and Iverson extensively during his 2nd three-peat - the inclusion of those players weakens the 03'-05' list, since they could have been in the 96'-98 list too.
.
[QUOTE=KobesFinger]
05 LeBron averaged 27/7/7, better than anybody in the 90s.
[/QUOTE]
anytime i think of lebron in the triangle, i feel like he'd be a cancer in that offense, but even if you put him over Pippen and put Pierce over Kobe, your list still only wins 4 of the spots.
[QUOTE]
And are you going to really sit there and say 2nd year Kobe is better than prime Paul Pierce? Kobe was still a bench player in 1998, if you include him on your list that shows how weak the 90s was in terms of swingmen
[/QUOTE]
Of course Kobe was better - he was voted as a starter in the all-star game and has always been a more dynamic player than Pierce.. anytime they both had the same playing time, kobe was way better.
he just wasn't getting starter minutes from his conservative coach Dell Harris at the time because the Lakers were THAT stacked with experienced all-stars already in the starting guard spots (Eddie Jones and Van Exel.
.
[QUOTE=3ball]Dwayne wade........ Scottie Pippen
Allen iverson......... Gary Payton
Tracy mcgrady...... Grant Hill
Vince carter.......... Clyde Drexler
Manu ginobili ........ Mitch Richmond
Ray allen.............. Latrell Sprewell
How is the right side not better, especially considering Jordan played against Ray Allen and Iverson extensively during his 2nd three-peat - the inclusion of those players weakens the 03'-05' list, since they could have been in the 96'-98 list too.
.[/QUOTE]
Kobe played against prime Iverson 00 to 06. Prime ray Allen 00 to 08 and beyond. Mj playing against them two years doesn't qualify them for his era. The bulk of their primes and peaks came in the 2000s.
You including pippen and Payton showcases the fact that you can't list any SG's that can compete with 2000s.. And if I add 00s point guards and small forwards
prime LeBron James >>> prime scottie pippen (which shouldn't even be included since Jordan gained from his being in the league.. He was not competition)
Prime Chris Paul, Jason kidd > Gary payton
Dwayne Wade >> Clyde drexler
Manu, tmac, Iverson, Pierce >> mitch Richmond, grant Hill, John starks
Ray Allen > Reggie miller
2000s perimeter talent >> 90s perimeter talent
[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]Please tell me youre joking. None of those guys at their best are even close to a Peak Wade Lebron, Durant or McGrady. Even peak Iverson and Carter are just as good as Peak Drexler or Payton. Penny Richmond Sprewell Jones nor Miller are even in the same tier as Wade Durant Lebron Tmac Iverson or Carter. Theyre in the Ray Allen Michael Redd Peak level.
The SG SF era from 2000-2010 is better than the 1990-2000 era and if you can't see that I don't know what to say to you. Jordans the best, but then you have Kobe Lebron Wade TMac Durant who are all superior to the 2nd best wing from the 90s, whether its Drexler or Pippen or Mullin or whoever.[/QUOTE]
Are you high? Peak Hardaway and Richmond were amazing. Heck MJ said after him, Richmond was not only the most underrated perimeter player, but the best of the 90's. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, Wade and Durant were/are great - no doubt - but to claim that Drexler, Richmond, Penny, or GP weren't even in their league is not only ignorant, but one of the dumbest statements in ISH history.
Learn the game, or kindly shut the f*ck up.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Are you high? Peak Hardaway and Richmond were amazing. Heck MJ said after him, Richmond was not only the most underrated perimeter player, but the best of the 90's. Iverson, Carter, Tmac, Wade and Durant were/are great - no doubt - but to claim that Drexler, Richmond, Penny, or GP weren't even in their league is not only ignorant, but one of the dumbest statements in ISH history.
Learn the game, or kindly shut the f*ck up.[/QUOTE]
Dont tell me to learn the game then proceed to say something as dumb as this. Penny had 2-3 star seasons in his career, with his best season being 22/7/4 which isnt even CLOSE to a peak Wade TMac Durant. 2nd year Wade was better than Pennys best year.
Richmonds best year he topped out at 26/4/4 45% FG which once again isn't at the level of what Wade T-Mac or Durant did at their peaks. He was a low 20s a game guy on average efficiency for his career. Average passer average rebounder average defender.I dont care what Jordan said.
Gary Payton and Clyde Drexler aren't a tier below these guys, probably, but still never proved as dominant in their peaks as Wade TMac or Durant. Payton is only in this category of players because of his defensive impact.
My original point wasnt that they arent great wing players, my point was that 2000s perimeter players are better than the 90s. If you made a top 10 list it would look like this.
1.) Jordan
2.) Lebron
3.) Kobe
4.) Wade
5.) Durant
6.) Drexler
7.) Peyton
8.) AI
9.) T-Mac
10.) Pierce/Carter/Richmond/Allen
He named players like Sprewell or Reggie or Eddie Jones and made it seem like they were superstars, when in reality they were Joe Johnson level and I wouldn't even take them over Prime Manu or Michael Redd
Mitch Richmond is like the Joe Johnson of the 90s. With better longevity.. But same caliber player. Just a run of the mill all star. It's an insult to compare him to all time elite talents like Wade, Durant, or Iverson.. Was mitch Richmond. This is a guy whose never even placed top 10 mvp.. Compared to mvp candidates and winners.
Richmond has multiple defensive/offensive All NBA teams. Joe Johnson is a silly comparison.
[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]Dont tell me to learn the game then proceed to say something as dumb as this. Penny had 2-3 star seasons in his career, with his best season being 22/7/4 which isnt even CLOSE to a peak Wade TMac Durant. 2nd year Wade was better than Pennys best year.[/quote]
It looks "dumb", because you never saw those players amid their pinnacle. Like Mcgrady, Penny's career was cut short, but you neglect to mention he ALSO had postseason runs of 31/6/4 on 47/72/37 and 23/6/5 on 47/74/37. At his best, in the playoffs, Penny was the caliber of player TMac was, and certainly with the likes of AI, Pierce, Wade, and Carter.
[quote]Richmonds best year he topped out at 26/4/4 45% FG[/quote]
Correct, along with elite shooting (43% 3PT / 86% FT) and defense. Keep in mind he did this when perimeter rules weren't as lax and 3PT shooting wasn't necessarily authorized. Dude would be even better today which once again further proves my point. He is without question in the same tier as those guys. You'd have to be completely oblivious to concede otherwise.
[quote]Gary Payton and Clyde Drexler aren't a tier below these guys, probably, but still never proved as dominant in their peaks as Wade TMac or Durant.[/quote]
As dominant? Clyde at his absolute best is on the level of any version of TMac and Wade if we account for defensive principles and playmaking. Durant I'm not sure because of the efficiency, but again, Clyde makes up for that w/ his 10+ years of consistent and superstar, quality brand of basketball.
[quote]My original point wasnt that they arent great wing players[/quote]
And you are wrong.
Payton and Drexler ARE great. They're among the Top 50 and best at their position.
[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]
1.) Jordan
2.) Lebron
3.) Kobe
4.) Wade
5.) Durant
6.) Drexler
7.) Peyton
8.) AI
9.) T-Mac
[/QUOTE]
[B]Durant only played 3 seasons in the 2000's.. so that means Magic, Bird, and Dominique should be included in the 90's.
[/B]
[B]Magic made the Finals in 1991 and All-Star Game in 1992... Bird was 21/10/7 in 1992... and Dominique had the best season of his career in 1993 (29.9 ppg, 7 rebs).. I would take the early 90's version of Magic, Bird, and Dominique over Iverson, Tmac, Drexler, Payton and Durant... I think that goes without saying.
[/B]
The list above also ignores Pippen, Penny and Grant Hill, who should all be above AI, Payton, and Tmac.
Top wing talent from the 90s matches up with any era:
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Barkley
Dominique
Pippen
Drexler
Grant Hill
Penny
Gary Payton
The list above [I]doesn't need[/I] to include Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, or Eddie Jones - just not good enough to make this 90's list.
Barkley? Might as well include Hakeem.
Who are the 10 best SGs and SFs of the Jordan era?
A while ago, I did a count for all of the possessions they guarded each other.
Now to be fair, neither of them guarded each other in their primes. Either MJ was old and Kobe too young, or MJ was too old and Kobe close to his prime. In any case, Mj scored on Kobe more than vice versa. They both had good plays on both ends on each other. But what stood out the most was how MJ was able to contest and challenge Kobe more times than Kobe contested and challenged MJ. MJ was able to get better looks and get more separation than Kobe. Even when MJ was a Wiz and near 40, he was able to stay in front of Kobe and force Kobe to difficult situations (not just shots). When Kobe guarded MJ it appeared as tho MJ managed to get more separation and get easier looks.
Yes Kobe blocked MJ in the all star game... that was a play, we can get that outta the way since we know somebody is gonna repost that gif a million times.
But overall, MJ got better looks and scored more on Kobe than Kobe scored on MJ.
Videos of their matchup are available online if somebody wants to recheck what I posted. Go ahead and feel free, you'll come away with similar conclusion.
[quote=KobesFinger]
[SIZE="3"]Who are the 10 best SGs and SFs of the Jordan era?
[/SIZE]
[/QUOTE]
[B][U]Best SG's:[/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell
[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.
[B][U]Best SF's[/U]
[/B]
Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
[i]Honorable Mention:[/i] Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas
[B]Defensive Specialists (partial list):[/B] Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Michael Finley, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason
What is with you and this Michael Finley nonsense, 3ball? HE WAS NEVER A DEFENSIVE SPECIALIST EVER, PERIOD. You have him as a "great" defender during the Bulls 2nd threepeat too...:biggums: He was awful defensively in his first few seasons and never more than an average defender at his BEST. (IF THAT)
[QUOTE=3ball][B][U]Best SG's:[/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell
[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.
[B][U]Best SF's[/U]
[/B]
Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
[i]Honorable Mention:[/i] Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas
[B]Defensive Specialists (partial list):[/B] Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Michael Finley, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason[/QUOTE]
I should've been more clear, I meant top 10 of both in one list. And by Jordan era I don't mean 84-98, more like 87 or 88 to 98. It was Bird and Magic's league in the mid 80s
[QUOTE=3ball]
[B][U]Best SG's:[/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell
[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.
.[/QUOTE]
So... If you tier the shooting guards its
Tier 1
MJ
Tier 2
Kobe, Wade
Clyde
Manu
Tier 3
Allen Iverson, Vince Carter,
Tracy McGrady, Ray allen
Penny Hardaway
Tier 4
Mitch Richmond, Joe dumas, spreewell
Joe Johnson, rip hamilton
Reggie Miller, Blackmon, alvin
00s owns the top tiers.. Most of the 90s list is on the bottom rung.
Kinda silly arguing over which era had better 2 guards.
Players from the 80s and up to the mid 90s played a different style, the game itself was played differently. The 2 guards from the 80s and 90s mostly played within the system and moved around more without the ball. They also played with their back to the defender more often than today's players, and many will argue that they were more skilled in different areas than today's players.
As we've shown repeatedly in this board, the league changed the rules to cater to perimeter players. I highly doubt that somebody like Wade would be as successful in the past, the same applies to a large amount of today's 'stars'. The main reason past wingmen weren't scoring as much as today's isn't because they wren't as talented. It's because the game as a whole was played differently, plain and simple.
How do you figure Wade wouldn't be a great player?
[QUOTE=tpols]So... If you tier the shooting guards its
Tier 1
MJ
Tier 2
Kobe, Wade
Clyde
Manu
Tier 3
Allen Iverson, Vince Carter,
Tracy McGrady, Ray allen
Penny Hardaway
Tier 4
Mitch Richmond, Joe dumas, spreewell
Joe Johnson, rip hamilton
Reggie Miller, Blackmon, alvin
[/QUOTE]
Ginobili is way too high - [I][U]two-way players[/U][/I] like Joe Dumars, Ronaldo Blackmon, and Alvin Robertson are better... Penny was obviously better too, and i'd take Richmond over him as well.
Also, Joe Johnson and Rip Hamilton should be on a 5th or 6th tier with Eddie Jones and Allan Houston, not up there with Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, and Mitch Richmond.
Btw, Vince Carter is a losing stat-padder, just like Mitch Richmond, but a worse defender... he's gets overrated a ton due to his dunking... and there's no way i would take Vince over Joe Dumars or Reggie Miller either - that's ridiculous.... Ray Allen isn't better than Richmond, Dumars or Miller either..
.
[quote=KobesFinger]
[size="3"]Who are your top 10 SG's and SF's in Jordan's career?[/size]
[/quote]
[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SG's 1984-1998:[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell
[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Michael Finley, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.
[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SF's 1984-1998[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
[i]Honorable Mention:[/i] Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034][u]Kiki Vandeweghe[/u][/url], Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas
[B]Defensive Specialists (partial list):[/B] Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason
.
^^^^^^^^^ took out Michael Finley from defensive specialists and moved him to honorable mention SG's.
[QUOTE=3ball]Ginobili is way too high - [I][U]two-way players[/U][/I] like Joe Dumars, Ronaldo Blackmon, and Alvin Robertson are better... Penny was obviously better too, and i'd take Richmond over him as well.
Also, Joe Johnson and Rip Hamilton should be on a 5th or 6th tier with Eddie Jones and Allan Houston, not up there with Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, and Mitch Richmond.
Btw, Vince Carter is a losing stat-padder, just like Mitch Richmond, but a worse defender... he's gets overrated a ton due to his dunking... and there's no way i would take Vince over Joe Dumars or Reggie Miller either - that's ridiculous.... Ray Allen isn't better than Richmond, Dumars or Miller either..[/QUOTE]
Manu is one the best star defender of the 2000s impact wise.. In most defensive metrics he grades very high for a sg. You're exposing your ignorance by saying he wasn't a two way player.
Totally disagree on Vince carter.. Lots of stereotypes there.
As far as Joe Johnson and rip goes I agree Reggies better, but he just isn't on the tmac ray Allen Iverson Tier because of his one dimensional play.. Even ray Allen could handle the ball, playmake, finish, rebound and defend well.. Ray Allens a great shooter but he had a more well rounded game than Reggie.
we already knew youre a jordan dickrider OP.
[QUOTE=tpols]
Manu is one the best star defender of the 2000s impact wise.. In most defensive metrics he grades very high for a sg. You're exposing your ignorance by saying he wasn't a two way player.
[/QUOTE]
[B]we don't have those type of defensive stats for Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson or Ronaldo Blackmon - if we did, their stats would crush Ginobili's... All those guys destroy Ginobili as a defender, but we don't have the stats to show it.
[/B]
also, it should be noted that RAPM doesn't work to compare players on different teams, because the players [I]need to play the same role for accurate comparison[/I], and no two players play the same role (i.e. Dikembe plays a different roles than Shaq... Bird played a different role than point guard Lebron, etc)... RAPM is only effective at comparing the impact of players [I]on the same team[/I], and even then the stat is fraught with error due to insufficient sample size.
[QUOTE=3ball][B]we don't have those type of defensive stats for Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson or Ronaldo Blackmon - if we did, their stats would crush Ginobili's... All those guys destroy Ginobili as a defender, but we don't have the stats to show it.
[/B]
also, it should be noted that RAPM doesn't work to compare players on different teams, because the players [I]need to play the same role for accurate comparison[/I], and no two players play the same role (i.e. Dikembe plays a different roles than Shaq... Bird played a different role than point guard Lebron, etc)... RAPM is only effective at comparing the impact of players [I]on the same team[/I], and even then the stat is marginalized by insufficient sample size.[/QUOTE]
So why do you make such a big point of Jordan's RAPM in 96?
[QUOTE=KobesFinger]So why do you make such a big point of Jordan's RAPM in 96?[/QUOTE]
because most people don't want to consider non-quantitative factors and they really think RAPM is a great tool, so i just use their arguments against them, since Jordan was #1 based on any metric, including rapm.
but i think rapm is hot garbage - any coach that uses the stat to trot lineups out there is saying "i don't understand basketball, but fortunately i don't have to, because the stats tell me what to do"... then just program a robot to coach.. :rolleyes:
.
[QUOTE=KobesFinger]How do you figure Wade wouldn't be a great player?[/QUOTE]
have you seen him play?
[QUOTE=andgar923]have you seen him play?[/QUOTE]
Have you? In his prime he had a good mid-range game and now has a post game. He's also a great passer, rebounder and defender
[QUOTE=3ball]^^^^^^^^^ took out Michael Finley from defensive specialists and moved him to honorable mention SG's.[/QUOTE]
Paul Pressey nor Jerome Kersey were defensive specialist either. (they were just plain good players in general) The fact that you took Finley off (and even had him on in the first place) because of someone's post (mine) goes to show you don't even know what the hell you are talking about. Oh you pretend well enough that you know everything...we all know about the many words you can type...but you are just a classic bullshitter.
Anyone can make your post: state a fact, post a list, post some gifs, make a miniscule opinion about something you already posted 30 times before - 3ball
Edit: ^^^ I almost forgot one last important item to make it an accurate 3ball post - swallow jordans throat yogurt.
[QUOTE=Smoke117]
Paul Pressey nor Jerome Kersey were defensive specialist either. (they were just plain good players in general)
[/quote]
you're right.. both of these guys were good, 2-way players.
[QUOTE]
The fact that you took Finley off (and even had him on in the first place) because of someone's post (mine) goes to show you don't even know what the hell you are talking about.
[/QUOTE]
Thinking about Finley made me realize the SF's are on a much higher level than the SG's, because Finley doesn't come close to making the SF honorable mentions (those are some nice SF's), but he can sneak in their at SG if someone's being generous.
[QUOTE=3ball]
[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SG's 1984-1998:[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell
[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Michael Finley, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.
[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SF's 1984-1998[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
[i]Honorable Mention:[/i] Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034][u]Kiki Vandeweghe[/u][/url], Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas
[B]Defensive Specialists (partial list):[/B] Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason
[/QUOTE]
i started making a list for 2000-2014, and the SGs match up much better than the SF's.
I can only find 9 good SF's worthy of being on any type of "era" list, and one of them is Kawhi Leonard - apparently, it's been a very thin position.. i think the frontcourt positions [I]in general[/I] are a lot thinner - more play-finisher/system-type players like Kawhi.
.
[QUOTE=3ball]you're right.. both of these guys were good, 2-way players.
Thinking about Finley made me realize the SF's are on a much higher level than the SG's, because Finley doesn't come close to making the SF honorable mentions (those are some nice SF's), but he can sneak in their at SG if someone's being generous.[/QUOTE]
Pretty words. Basically you knew adding so many players was bullshit...as people who knew better than you said so.
There is a reason 3ball leaves a bad taste in your mouth...
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[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SG's 1984-1998:[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Anfernee Hardaway
Joe Dumars
Sidney Moncrief
Alvin Robertson
Reggie Miller
Dennis Johnson
Ronaldo Blackman
Mitch Richmond
[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Latrell Sprewell, Fat Lever, Jeff Hornacek, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Michael Finley, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper, Reggie Theus.
[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SF's 1984-1998[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Larry Bird
Dr. J
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
[i]Honorable Mention:[/i] Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034][u]Kiki Vandeweghe[/u][/url], Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas
[B]Defensive Specialists (partial list):[/B] Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason
.
[QUOTE=Smoke117]Pretty words. Basically you knew adding so many players was bullshit...as people who knew better than you said so.
There is a reason 3ball leaves a bad taste in your mouth...[/QUOTE]
if it's bullshit, why is finley the only thing you disagree with?
are you always this much of a nitpicker?
also, i think finley should be in there as a legit SG honorable mention anyway - he was a good 2-way player that had pretty high offensive win shares in his prime... and he was good enough to have a very long career.. long enough to successfully ring-chase with the Spurs at the end.
btw, why don't you make a list for 2000-2014 like the one i did for 1984-1998?
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[QUOTE=3ball]if it's bullshit, why is finley the only thing you disagree with?
are you always this much of a nitpicker?
also, i think finley should be in there as a legit SG honorable mention anyway - he was a good 2-way player that had pretty high offensive win shares in his prime.
btw, why don't you make a list for 2000-2014 like the one i did for 1984-1998?[/QUOTE]
...I've never met a man who loves to see himself type with a grin on his face...just like you. That grin is going to be what everyone remembers you with when you are in the mud.
And Eye...we will all meet that mud...some of us sooner than later eh?
[QUOTE=Smoke117]...I've never met a man who loves to see himself type with a grin on his face...just like you. That grin is going to be what everyone remembers you with when you are in the mud.
And Eye...we will all meet that mud...some of not as soon as you eh?[/QUOTE]
rent free