Accomplishments Thru 29 Years Old: MJ vs. Lebron

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Molded [I]Pippen[/I] into a winner? When was Pippen ever a loser? He did not even have a losing season in his career until his final season when he was 38 barely played due to injuries. Pippen did not lose in the first round until his 12th season. Pippen was in the conference finals 9 times in 17 years. Yet Jordan made Pippen a winner? I think you have it backwards. It was MJ who was a perennial loser prior to Pippen.

Speaking of "molding" a winner, is that not what LeBron did with Bosh and what he is now doing with Love and Irving? Like Pippen's teammate, these are guys who had no team success prior to pairing with LeBron.[/QUOTE]

It's been confirmed in several books and interviews with former Bulls players that Jordan relentlessly worked with Pippen and make Pippen cover him every practice and that he had Pippen come to his house on a daily basis to work out and to teach. Had Jordan not gotten Pippen, he would have gotten someone else of equal moldable mindset and willingness to shape. Nothing would have changed to effect his 6/6 perfection.

Bron on the other hand turned poor Bosh to a spot up 3 point shooter for the most part, and now he's doing the same thing to Kevin Love. If Bron wasn't such a joke of a mentor, then players like West would not have done what they did. Did Bron have Bosh coming to his house everyday to practice BEFORE practice like Jordan did with Pippen? Nope. Don't ever compare the mentorship of the GOAT to the likes of Bron.

[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]Had Jordan not gotten Pippen, he would have gotten someone else of equal moldable mindset and willingness to shape. Nothing would have changed to effect his 6/6 perfection.
[/QUOTE]

So why hasn't he done so in Washington or Charlotte? :lol He can't even "create" an all-star let alone an all-time great.

Pippen was the #5 pick and picked ahead of Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller, Reggie Lewis, Horace Grant and Kenny Smith long before he ever met Mike. When someone is drafted that high, what do you think they are projected to be? Other teams wanted him, including Russell's Kings and Detroit. Pippen went from handing out towels to the #5 pick in a span of a few years. Yet that drive and determination is ignored to promote Jordan mythology.

[QUOTE]Bron on the other hand turned poor Bosh to a spot up 3 point shooter for the most part, and now he's doing the same thing to Kevin Love. Bron is such a joke of a mentor, that players like West would not have done what they did. [/QUOTE]

So why do so many players want to play with LeBron? I am not aware of any other player in history who has had so many players willing to flock to him. Jordan was so hated by his teammates early in his career they would move when he sat on the bench to be as far away as possible from him. Jordan would not even speak to some of his teammates. :roll: LeBron clearly is a superior teammate to Jordan.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]So why hasn't he done so in Washington or Charlotte? :lol He can't even "create" an all-star let alone an all-time great.

[B]Why should he at this stage? He already cemented himself and achieved greatness when he played.[/B]

Pippen was the #5 pick and picked ahead of Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller, Reggie Lewis, Horace Grant and Kenny Smith long before he ever met Mike. When someone is drafted that high, what do you think they are projected to be?

[B]Can you name other players in history drafted that high that were not anywhere close to the player Pippen was? I can. Pippen's place in the draft is rather moot. He became the player he was once he entered the NBA due to Jordan and it's not even debatable.[/B]

Other teams wanted him, including Russell's Kings and Detroit. Pippen went from handing out towels to the #5 pick in a span of a few years. Yet that drive and determination is ignored to promote Jordan mythology.

So why do so many players want to play with LeBron? I am not aware of any other player in history who has had so many players willing to flock to him. Jordan was so hated by his teammates early in his career they would move when he sat on the bench to be as far away as possible from him. Jordan would not even speak to some of his teammates. :roll: LeBron clearly is a superior teammate to Jordan.

[B]Because Lebron has put the precedent forward that it is OK to collude and acceptable. Kevin love has now accepted the title of ring chaser for joining Lebron. When the celtics did it, people were asking some questions but it wasn't until Lebron joined Wade that people were up in arms about it. If Bron was a superior teammate, he would have helped his teammates and himself get more than 2 rings, unlike Jordan who made sure that Pippen achieved perfection in the finals, enabling Pippen to have a 6/6 on his resume as well.[/B] [/QUOTE]

:no:

[QUOTE]
Why should he at this stage? He already cemented himself and achieved greatness when he played.
[/QUOTE]

Simple, he is the ultimate competitor. MJ is a guy who hates losing--at anything. This is someone who bought a Pac Man machine to practice so he would not lose to Brad Sellars anymore. He practiced ping pong because he was losing ping pong games with the Dream Team. He competed with Pippen over Madonna and over dick sizes. Do you really think he went to Washington and then Charlotte to preside over lousy franchise? No, he aspires to win championships and become the preeminent owner just like he wanted to be the best GM and before that the best player. He simply can't, because he is human, "create" an all-time great and that is why his teams have been perennial losers in Washington and Charlotte. If he could "create" a legend he would have; he can't even create an all-star.

[QUOTE]Can you name other players in history drafted that high that were not anywhere close to the player Pippen was? I can. Pippen's place in the draft is rather moot[/QUOTE]

No, it is not moot. It is reflective of what he was projected to be. Again, he was taken over Kevin Johnson and Reggie Miller and several other good players. A player taken that high is expected to be a perennial all-star at minimum.

[QUOTE]
Because Lebron has put the precedent forward that it is OK to collude and acceptable[/QUOTE]

So LeBron now sets precedents for other players? "Alpha" as hell! :bowdown: Why just LeBron? Why don't players follow Durant, Paul, Carmelo, et al. around?

Funny how OP left out 3P% from regular season and playoffs because LeBron's is better, but included it in the Finals because Jordan's was better.

Jordan...

[QUOTE=3ball]

Jordan

[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]He competed with Pippen over Madonna [B]and over dick sizes.[/B][/QUOTE]

That's one area he can never compete with Pippen in.

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=3ball]you're missing the point of the thread.

if the number of trophies that two guys have is close to the same,[B] but one guy had to carry his team waaaaaaaaaaaay more, and had waaaaaaaaaaaay less help,[/B] than who cares what the accomplishments were.[/QUOTE]
In the postseason, did MJ lead his team in points, rebounds, assists and steals in any B2B title years like LeBron did?

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]In the postseason, did MJ lead his team in points, rebounds, assists and steals in any B2B title years like LeBron did?[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="3"][U]Regular Season Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 27.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 49.6 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.243 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 32.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 2.7 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 51.6 FG%, 58.9 TS%, 121 ORtg, 29.8 PER, 0.274 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Playoffs Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 28.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 48.2 FG%, 57.8 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.242 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 119 ORtg, 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Finals Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 24.1 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.55 BPG, 46.3 FG%, 31.2% 3 PT
[B]MJ[/B]: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT


[size="3"]So basically, 1 game of Jordan's scoring in the Finals was the equivalent of having Lebron playing 3 HALVES (1.5 games)!![/size]

[QUOTE=Demitri98]

Funny how OP left out 3P% from regular season and playoffs because LeBron's is better, but included it in the Finals because Jordan's was better.

[/QUOTE]
[b]Not at all bro - thru age 29, Jordan shot 35.2% in the playoffs from 3-point range, which is GREATER THAN Lebron's 33.3%.
[/b]
The only reason I left it off initially, is because there wasn't enough room - the data would have carried over to a 2nd line and ****ed up the alignment - the alignment is necessary for easy comparison of the stats.

Jordan was greater in so many stat categories (almost every single one), that i had to PRIORITIZE.

[QUOTE=3ball][SIZE="3"][U]Regular Season Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 27.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 49.6 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.243 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 32.3 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 2.7 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 51.6 FG%, 58.9 TS%, 121 ORtg, 29.8 PER, 0.274 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Playoffs Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 28.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 48.2 FG%, 57.8 TS%, 116 ORtg, 27.7 PER, 0.242 WS/48
[B]MJ[/B]: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.1 FG%, 58.1 TS%, 119 ORtg, 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48


[SIZE="3"][U]Finals Thru Age 29:[/U][/SIZE]

[B]LB[/B]: 24.1 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.55 BPG, 46.3 FG%, 31.2% 3 PT
[B]MJ[/B]: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT


[size="3"]So basically, 1 game of Jordan's scoring in the Finals was the equivalent of having Lebron playing 3 HALVES (1.5 games)!![/size][/QUOTE]
But where does that show LeBron had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more help?

Where does that show that MJ lead his team in the 4 stats I stated in B2B title years?

We saw what didn't work for Miami in 2011, but saw what did work in 2012 and 13

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]

Where does that show that MJ lead his team in the 4 stats I stated in B2B title years?

[/QUOTE]
Who cares - thru the age of 29, Jordan averaged 50% more scoring than Lebron in the Finals (36 PPG to 24 PPG) - that means Lebron must play an entire extra half (1.5 games) to match 1 game of Jordan's scoring.

MJ also had better assists (7.9 APG to 6.4 APG), so Lebron is not making up the scoring anywhere else...

And even though MJ took on a 50% higher scoring load with more assists, he still had better overall efficiency (53% FG to 46%) and 3-point shooting (41% to 31%).
.

[QUOTE=Dragic4Life]Stop. This is straight embarrassing for you.

It's a lost cause, Lebron is well on his way to surpassing MJ as the GOAT when all is said and done. Accept it.[/QUOTE]

2-4 :lol

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]But where does that show LeBron had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more help?

Where does that show that MJ lead his team in the 4 stats I stated in B2B title years?

We saw what didn't work for Miami in 2011, but saw what did work in 2012 and 13[/QUOTE]

2013 is lucky

[QUOTE=3ball]Jordan[/QUOTE]
Another excellent post by 3ball. Maybe I was wrong about you. :applause:

[QUOTE=Paul George 24]2013 is lucky[/QUOTE]

Luck is often a factor in sports. If the Bulls did not get lucky with the Spurs being so eager to unload Rodman that they traded him for a career backup center what would have happened to the Bulls in 1996-1998? Ray Allen's Game 6 shot was no more or no less lucky than John Paxson's Game 6 shot.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Ray Allen's Game 6 shot was no more or no less lucky than John Paxson's Game 6 shot.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

It wasn't saving their life in the series, or on a difficult turn around fall away on the baseline. Predicated on an opponent error fumbled loose ball. San Antonio choke that game away. Then did it in game 7 as well when Duncan missed a gimme.

You serious, dude? Paxson was poised, and wide open due to the attention on MJ from full court. Horace made a nice pass.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]:oldlol:

It wasn't saving their life in the series, or on a difficult turn around fall away on the baseline. Predicated on an opponent error fumbled loose ball. San Antonio choke that game away. Then did it in game 7 as well when Duncan missed a gimme.

You serious, dude? Paxson was poised, and wide open due to the attention on MJ from full court. Horace made a nice pass.[/QUOTE]


LOL, right?

If Pax missed that shot, we still had Game 7. If Ray Ray missed that shot, Lebron is 1/4 (at that point, 1/5 if everything played out as it did the next season) in the Finals.

I would say I can't believe Roundball would use that scenario, but then again we ARE talking about Roundball. :oldlol:

MJ was routinely required to score every point for his team down the stretch of games.

[QUOTE=sportjames23]LOL, right?

If Pax missed that shot, we still had Game 7. If Ray Ray missed that shot, Lebron is 1/4 (at that point, 1/5 if everything played out as it did the next season) in the Finals.

I would say I can't believe Roundball would use that scenario, but then again we ARE talking about Roundball. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Roundball grasping at anything he can right now. :lol



[img]http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/MJsTrophies.png[/img]

[img]http://neosmack.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/lebron-james-crying1.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]You serious, dude? Paxson was poised, and wide open due to the attention on MJ from full court. Horace made a nice pass.[/QUOTE]

:lol at crediting MJ. Pippen drew 3 defenders as he drove the lane and he passed to Grant who then passed to a wide open Paxson. MJ was on the periphery after he brought the ball up.

Game 7 would have been in Phoenix btw.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:lol at crediting MJ. Pippen drew 3 defenders as he drove the lane and he passed to Grant who then passed to a wide open Paxson. MJ was on the periphery after he brought the ball up.[/QUOTE]
Paxson's 3-pointer in Game 6 of the 1993 Finals was the first points scored by anyone other than Jordan in the entire fourth quarter, as the announcer notes..

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE3aiztuECY&t=3m51s[/url]


MJ is the only player in history required to score every point in the 4th quarter for his team in the Finals, and it was quite standard for him:

It was part of Phil Jackson's everyday gameplan to have MJ's teammates leave him all alone down the stretch of games, so he can do everything by himself:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s[/url]

[i]"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet[/I]."

[QUOTE=3ball]Paxson's 3-pointer in Game 6 of the 1993 Finals was the first points scored by anyone other than Jordan in the entire fourth quarter, as the announcer notes..

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE3aiztuECY&t=3m51s[/url]


MJ is the only player in history required to score every point in the 4th quarter for his team in the Finals, and it was quite standard for him:

It was part of Phil Jackson's everyday gameplan to have MJ's teammates leave him all alone down the stretch of games, so he can do everything by himself:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s[/url]

[i]"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet[/I]."[/QUOTE]

Poetry in motion. So goooooood!

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:lol at crediting MJ.
[/QUOTE]
WTF you talking about ... Phoenix had KJ on MJ FULL COURT because of what he had just done going the length of the court on prior possessions off the dribble.

MJ was the only one besides that Paxson jumper to score for Chicago in the 4th. Why wouldn't he be getting credit? All eyes were on him due to being historically clutch, and 4th quarter dominant.

Pippen only had 1 guy run at him on the play, and he got the step on him. Now I know you're making stuff up.

[quote=Roundball_Rock]Game 7 would have been in Phoenix btw.[/quote]
And? Bulls won game 1, and game 2 there.

You seriously going full retard again trying to compare the context of Ray Allen's ridiculous miracle corner 3 off a loose ball to save Miami from losing AGAIN as favorites in the Finals to John Paxson making a wide open jumper to win the series in 6?

Um, ok.

Obviously you have never watched the play. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Obviously you have never watched the play. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Jordan had KJ on him full court. Passed to Pippen at top of the arc, Pippen immedietly drove by 1 player who popped out on him. I think it was Dumas IIRC, and then Scottie didn't even make a play to score he immedietly passed to Horace who also had a man on him ... who then finds wide open Paxson behind him.

Way to dodge what I asked.

Are you seriously comparing that Paxson shot, it's difficult, it's context to Ray Allen's proclaimed miracle series saving shot in game 6 for Miami?

[QUOTE]Jordan had KJ on him full court. Passed to Pippen at top of the arc, Pippen immedietly drove by 1 player who popped out on him. I think it was Dumas IIRC, and then Scottie didn't even make a play to score he immedietly passed to Horace who also had a man on him ... who then finds wide open Paxson behind him.[/QUOTE]

Watch it again. Pippen got past his defender--and then drew 2 more as he drove the lane. That left Grant open, who he passed to. Grant, struggling that night, then passed to a wide open Paxson. Paxson's man left to chase Pippen and then Grant. MJ is somewhere in the back of the frame.

Of course a shot in Game 6 when a team is up 3-2 is not the same as a shot when the team is down 3-2.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Watch it again. Pippen got past his defender--and then drew 2 more as he drove the lane.[/quote]
Yea they collapsed on him. You made it sound as if they sent 3 dudes at Pippen out the gates. It's a horse of a different color. Pippen probably could have made a play at the rim too.

[quote=Roundball_Rock]Of course a shot in Game 6 when a team is up 3-2 is not the same as a shot when the team is down 3-2.[/QUOTE]
You were making the comparison, bro ... WTF

Yeah but the point is the key to the play was not hordes of defensive attention on MJ. MJ was single covered. Pippen is the one who got Paxson free and Grant made the smart extra pass.

What I said was Paxson's shot was "lucky" like Allen's was "lucky." "Luck"--or in this case clutch plays--are simply a part of sports. Look at this year's SB but you don't see football fans saying idiotic things like the guy who made the INT "saved" Tom Brady. :lol

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yeah but the point is the key to the play was not hordes of defensive attention on MJ.[/quote]
From full court ... they didn't want him getting a head of steam. He was the only one who scored the entire quarter for the Bulls.

[quote=Roundball_Rock]MJ was single covered. Pippen is the one who got Paxson free and Grant made the smart extra pass.[/quote]
Yes, he beat one man off the triple threat. He didn't have 3x dudes on him as you made it sound.

[quote=Roundball_Rock]What I said was Paxson's shot was "lucky" like Allen's was "lucky."[/quote]
What? You still can't be serious.

How many times is this comparison going to repeat itself? Just watch the balding man play and enjoy his greatness. Compare after.

Yeah but it was Pip who caused Paxson to get open, not MJ as you claimed.

"Luck" is part of sports. Allen was not luck. Paxson was not luck. They were clutch. People act as if those guys made a fluke half court shot or something. The Super Bowl was not "luck"--the guy made a great play for the INT after a dumb call by SEA.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yeah but it was Pip who caused Paxson to get open, not MJ as you claimed.

"Luck" is part of sports. Allen was not luck. Paxson was not luck. They were clutch. People act as if those guys made a fluke half court shot or something. The Super Bowl was not "luck"--the guy made a great play for the INT after a dumb call by SEA.[/QUOTE]


You can't compare the "luck" of a controlled play to the "luck" of a last second offensive rebound and kickout.

If lebron had passed to Wade who passed to ray Allen who hit the game tying shot in wouldn't be considered as lucky because it was controlled throughout.. credit is given to the team for that. lebron bricked the game tying shot and was lucky bosh was in the perfect place for the rebound with Ray Allen directly behind him.. it was a crazy unpredictable turn of events. And it was a series and legacy saving shot..

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]How many times is this comparison going to repeat itself? Just watch the balding man play and enjoy his greatness. Compare after.[/QUOTE]
:applause:

So many people have wasted so much breath, especially the past couple days it seems.

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]

Compare after.

[/QUOTE]
Why bother?

Jordan's superior level of dominance and massive statistical advantage thru 29 years of age (as shown in the OP) will only get bigger and bigger as Lebron gets further into his 30's, because no one maintained their stats and dominance as they aged better than Jordan.

Lebron has ALREADY sunk to a 25 PER at just 30 years old... Jordan didn't dip below a 28 PER until his final season at 35 years old.

[QUOTE=3ball]Why bother?[/QUOTE]

So why do you continue bothering to compare them? Thread after thread. You've even started talking about how inferior Westbrook is to Jordan. I mean, come on dude. :lol

[QUOTE=3ball]Why bother?

Jordan's superior level of dominance and massive statistical advantage thru 29 years of age (as shown in the OP) will only get bigger and bigger as Lebron gets further into his 30's, [B]because no one maintained their stats and dominance as they aged better than Jordan.[/B]

Lebron has ALREADY sunk to a 25 PER at just 30 years old... Jordan didn't dip below a 28 PER until his final season at 35 years old.[/QUOTE]
That's because no one else quit the league in the middle of a contract after 9 seasons so they can rest for 2 years, only to decide to come back.

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]

You've even started talking about how inferior Westbrook is to Jordan.

[/QUOTE]
true, but westbrook could prove to be better than lebron by the time this season ends.. he is probably already better.

this helps shed perspective on the comparisons, because of course, we know westbrook is jordan's [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=369162][u]mini-me[/u][/url].