This YT video explains and shows why the no zone defense was much easier to play in.

[QUOTE=Poetry][I]"No team played zone on more than 10 percent of defensive possessions last season, per Synergy Sports. Dallas became known as the zone team in 2010-11, but they played a hybrid man zone more than a straight zone, and they did that on a small minority of possessions.

[B]The league overall actually scored more efficiently against zone than man last season, according to Synergy.[/B]" [/I]

Grantland, 2012[/QUOTE]
Hi 3ball

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]I'm wearing sweatpants right now nigguh, shit is serious.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/IsE872.gif[/IMG]

Knicks throwing shade at the GOAT here? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
I don't understand your point. That's not what I asked. And I'm not comparing, you threw info out there so I figured you knew more about it. This gif thing kinda prone to cherry picking. It's not like the moment from the gif is representative of that eras defense as a whole. My question is focused on the current era.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]I don't understand your point. That's not what I asked. And I'm not comparing, you threw info out there so I figured you knew more about it. This gif thing kinda prone to cherry picking. [B]It's not like the moment from the gif is representative of that eras defense as a whole.[/B][/QUOTE]

And you base this assertion on what exactly?

[QUOTE]My question is focused on the current era.[/QUOTE]

Your question was about synergy sports keeping track of 'shading' data.

I don't think they keep track of that. But you can email/call them for specifics.

[url]http://corp.synergysportstech.com/[/url]

If whoever answers your inquiry doesn't laugh in your face, be sure to come back here and tell us what they say. :cheers:

.
[B][size="3"]MJ's Mid-Range Shooting[/size] (Ron Artest said MJ was [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m57s][COLOR="Red"]like Reggie Miller[/COLOR][/url] from the mid-range)[/B]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/e376b067b766d37a2b60958ae7df4dc9.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Fadeaway_Hangtime_VS_En_f2e6935bf43334e8c5c30c1b2b6489d8.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/No_hangtime_like_Jordans_0dd6db619b8c6a7c785b93425f5b59da.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/Jordan_Hangtime_Jumper_on_offb_12e8ad28b619d87d7adfef991e4158c1.gif[/IMG]


[IMG]http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b6b18ec51d8ae4c3dd98e52b5d970736.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]And you base this assertion on what exactly?



Your question was about synergy sports keeping track of 'shading' data.

I don't think they keep track of that. But you can email/call them for specifics.

[url]http://corp.synergysportstech.com/[/url]

If whoever answers your inquiry doesn't laugh in your face, be sure to come back here and tell us what they say. :cheers:[/QUOTE]
:coleman: for one I watched that era, 2nd if you don't feel that distinction matters you never really wanted to have an honest debate about it. If that's the case carry on.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

not representative of that eras defense as a whole.

[/QUOTE]
you know what's representative of that era as a whole?

no spacing.. hand-checking.. physicality..

and according to the NBA, [url=http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html][u]more difficult penetration[/u][/url].

you know what else?... legal paint-camping.. from the Illegal Defense Guidelines:

[B]2b.[/B] [I]"When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area [B]with no time limitations[/B]. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area."[/I]

[QUOTE=3ball]you know what's representative of that era as a whole?

no spacing.. hand-checking.. physicality..

and according to the NBA, [url=http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html][u]more difficult penetration[/u][/url].

you know what else?... legal paint-camping.. from the Illegal Defense Guidelines:

[B]2b.[/B] [I]"When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area [B]with no time limitations[/B]. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area."[/I][/QUOTE]
Yeah I agree that much is true, but that only means this era is different for certain.....

.
[COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR][B]THINGS THAT MAKE DEFENSES STRONGER:[/B]


[COLOR="White"]........................[/COLOR] [U]Previous Eras[/U][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] [U]Today's Era[/U]

No Spacing[COLOR="White"].................[/COLOR][x][COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][ ]

Hand-Checking[COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR][x][COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][ ]

Paint-Camping[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][x][COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][ ]

Physicality[COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR][x][COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][ ]



I couldn't include zones on the list above, because today's NBA bans zone inside the paint, so today's zones aren't really zones at all - and i couldn't include "partial zones" on the list, because those make defenses WEAKER, not stronger.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]

as opposed to playing against a defense that's always hovering in your vicinity but never fully committing to a hard trap so that they can cut off both the driving lane and passing lane - [B]([SIZE="4"]flooding and shading[/SIZE])[/B]

[/quote]
[IMG]http://s29.postimg.org/y32v1xeqv/overload.jpg[/IMG]


Flooding Deandre to the strongside (seen above) leaves the weakside a man down and vulnerable - the ways to exploit this were standardized years ago and are routinely used by all teams.

Whereas letting Deandre paint-camp under the rim doesn't leave the weakside vulnerable - Griffin gets to stay on Love in the near-corner, while Dandre's presence under the rim provides the best opportunity to defend against penetrators from the strongside... He's closer to Mosgov this way too.

It's been long proven that a big man's presence under the rim is the best possible position for him defensively - the only reason the strong-side flood exists is BECAUSE defenders can no longer paint-camp.


[QUOTE=JohnMax]

This simple isolation play would be frontside flooded with help across the lane low today.

[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2015/0107/Klay-New-03.gif[/IMG]


Today's defensive 3 seconds and spacing forces bigs to defend in a flood and shading-type fashion on the perimeter, instead of protecting the rim in the paint.. To execute floods and shading, bigs must come AWAY from the hoop and defend a guard off-the-dribble, as Pau is seen trying to do above.

This is a major disadvantage for the big man - essentially, today's game forces bigs to trade in their [I]advantage[/I] of taking on smaller defenders AT the rim (previous eras paint-camping), for a [I]disadvantage[/I] of contesting quicker players on the perimeter (today's floods and shading).

And clearly, the stats prove that today's floods and shading haven't made scoring or penetration more difficult - teams score more today than in the mid-90's and [url=http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/team/drives/?sort=DTP&dir=1][u]the NBA's own stats[/u][/url] show teams score via dribble-penetration more than any other scoring method..

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

partial zones

[/QUOTE]
Partial zones make defenses weaker, not stronger.

Today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds forces would-be rim protectors to flood and shade OUTSIDE the paint on the perimeter (see previous post) - so once the ballhandler beats whoever is flooding/shading, there is no one protecting the rim because the shaders and flooders got beat on the perimeter.

otoh, previous era defenders just waited inside the paint..

[I]The very reason shading and flooding was invented is specifically BECAUSE the NBA banned paint-camping.
[/I]

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]:coleman: for one I watched that era[/QUOTE]

So you know all about the Jordan Rules and teams skirting the illegal defense rules to play actual zone then. Good for you. :applause:

[QUOTE]2nd if you don't feel that distinction matters you never really wanted to have an honest debate about it. If that's the case carry on.[/QUOTE]

Yeah... I showed you empirical data from the company employed by the NBA that documented the limited use of 'zone' defense in the league today. You wanted to know if they kept data on 'shading'. I told you they most likely didn't but gave you the contact number for the company so you can ask them personally. I also showed you an example of a team 'shading' Jordan back in '92... but obviously that was 'cherrypicked' and didn't count.

I'm all for a good debate. Take this thread wherever you want it to go, I'll follow. The world is yours son. :cheers:

[QUOTE=3ball].
[COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR][B]THINGS THAT MAKE DEFENSES STRONGER:[/B]


[COLOR="White"]........................[/COLOR] [U]Previous Eras[/U][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] [U]Today's Era[/U]

No Spacing[COLOR="White"].................[/COLOR][x][COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][ ]

Hand-Checking[COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR][x][COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][ ]

Paint-Camping[COLOR="White"].............[/COLOR][x][COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][ ]

Physicality[COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR][x][COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][ ]



I couldn't include zones on the list above, because today's NBA bans zone inside the paint, so today's zones aren't really zones at all - and i couldn't include "partial zones" on the list, because those make defenses WEAKER, not stronger.[/QUOTE]
Rerun....yawn
This desperate obsession to prove era superiority really causes major logic fails for you bro, need to try something different every now and then.

If you watched the video op posted the main thing that jumped out in debate is how when guys iso back then they had a shot at only having to beat a single defender to reach the paint. In this era they have one guy zoning behind the man defender meaning to get to the bucket against that particular setup, you have to beat 2 guys just to reach the paint sometimes. Big difference. Again not representative of a whole era but it works for you since you're into that sort of thing. Look at those clips in the video and tell me how many of those plays become dunks or layups after you remove the zone man. All this proves is the eras are different and each has their own specific challenges rule wise.

Is it true though that in the past....lets say player X is on the left 3pt line, the opponent don't wanna double team. His teammates all run to the right 3pt line. Their defenders then must follow to the right 3pt line or it will be illegal defense?

[QUOTE=iamgine]Is it true though that in the past....lets say player X is on the left 3pt line, the opponent don't wanna double team. His teammates all run to the right 3pt line. Their defenders then must follow to the right 3pt line or it will be illegal defense?[/QUOTE]
Yeah when the refs call it. They missed calls back then though just like any era. The idea was you had to appear to be guarding someone.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Yeah when the refs call it. They missed calls back then though just like any era. The idea was you had to appear to be guarding someone.[/QUOTE]
Do the ref called it often though? Or is it like carrying where they very seldom calls it.

[QUOTE=iamgine]Is it true though that in the past....lets say player X is on the left 3pt line, [B]the opponent don't wanna double team[/B]. His teammates all run to the right 3pt line. Their defenders then must follow to the right 3pt line or it will be illegal defense?[/QUOTE]

If the opponent didn't want to double a guy, I assume everyone would just play their man, no? :confusedshrug:

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/P6YzYB.gif[/IMG]

^Jordan catches the ball on the left 3 point line, all the defenders run away from him to avoid the illegal D call.

[QUOTE]Yeah when the refs call it. [B]They missed calls back then though[/B] just like any era. The idea was you had to appear to be guarding someone.[/QUOTE]

Got to the point that teams were using outright zones with little or no real repercussions and the NBA tried repeatedly curtailing it with no luck. They finally gave up and abolished the rule (while adding other caveats along the way- 3 sec in the paint, no handchecking, etc).

Zone, actual zone, was played openly in the NBA long before 2001.

[QUOTE]Do the ref called it often though? [B]Or is it like carrying where they very seldom calls it.[/B][/QUOTE]

That.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]If the opponent didn't want to double a guy, I assume everyone would just play their man, no? :confusedshrug:
[/QUOTE]
Yeah but if a defense center's man goes to the perimeter clearly it would be great if that center could stay near the strong side paint and not have to follow his man.

[QUOTE=iamgine]Yeah but if a defense center's man goes to the perimeter clearly it would be great if that center could stay near the strong side paint and not have to follow his man.[/QUOTE]

I'm having a hard time following your broken english, but I assume you're if a center's man goes to the perimeter, he'd be forced to follow? That gif I posted above showed 3 different Knicks (including PF Oakley) not guarding any man but Jordan, throwing multiple traps at him on the strong side... before Jordan ran into the 7 fter camping in the paint... but here's more (all from Game 1 of the Bulls-Knicks 1992 Playoff series):

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/k1Rp5_.gif[/IMG]

^Pay close attention to Ewing. During the whole play he's never within 10 ft of his man until the very last second of the play clock. The Knicks played a hybrid 3-2 zone on that play. They tripled Jordan when he got the ball at the top of the key

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/WJfp23.gif[/IMG]

^Again watch as Ewing is nowhere near his man, but just camps out in the paint and 'shades' Jordan on the post (While Gerald Wilkins flashes a double). No illegal D was called.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/kGPQAj.gif[/IMG]

^Ewing 'shades' Pippen, disregarding his man (Mark Jackson also zoning at the top of the key).

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-01-2015/KdJEpr.gif[/IMG]

^Another 'hybrid' 3-2 zone, 3 guys at the top of the key guarding an area, not a man. Jordan's man chases him down once he gets the pass on the baseline.

Etc, and so on... that's just a few random plays from the first half of game 1.

So from what I gather...the rule that you have to follow your man/guard someone was indeed an official rule in the past.

How much teams was actually affected by it and how much it was enforced was the debate. There are evidence for and against it.

some misinformation itt..

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

they had a shot at only having to beat a single defender [SIZE="3"][B]to reach[/B][/SIZE] the paint.

you have to beat 2 guys just [B][SIZE="3"]to reach[/SIZE][/B] the paint sometimes.

[/QUOTE]
You've identified the difference in today's era and previous eras - in today's game, ballhandlers face more defense outside the paint ("to reach the paint" as you said), and consequently, they face less defense inside the paint.

Last I checked, a ballhandler's strength is beating defenders on the perimeter and all ballhandlers love doing it - with today's defenders on the perimeter away from the paint, the ballhandler has a shot at finishing in the paint against ZERO rim protection.. Whereas previous era ballhandlers faced paint-camping... Paint-camping > floods by a mile.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]As a superstar.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM_eCnTNt1Q[/url]

Shows and explains why today's superstars have it harder with zone compared to last greats.[/QUOTE]

are you serious? I hope you didn't make the vid yourself because even in the clips that are used to prove how weak the past eras were, they mentioned "double" teams coming to help. :facepalm

FACT is, MJ faced EVERY defense known past, present and more than likely future.

Isolation is still very much a part of the game. Because some players today can't take advantage it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. They simply aren't smart enough, skilled enough, or athletic enough to beat it.

But is has a been shown repeatedly:

A. The zone is rarely played with any sort of consistency
B. The 'zone' isn't really a true 'zone' because it is restricted by rule changes which decrease its effectiveness
C. The zone hasn't stopped players from penetrating. Unlike popular and misleading myths, the zone doesn't stop penetrating wing players from getting to the rim. This has been backed up by a shitload of stats aka FACTS

One important thing to consider as well.

The NBA wasn't as strict at calling it by the book like they are today. The NBA officials let the defense get away with much much more than today, it's night and day at the amount of shit they didn't call.

This entire vid and argument is weak sauce that has been exposed eons ago.

I quickly clicked on 2 of Bron's greatest games. And I noticed TONS of isolations, EASY paths to the basket with uncontested layups and dunks, weak help from the defense, his inability to make smart decisions and expose the defense which led to him getting trapped, lack of explosiveness and elusiveness on his behalf and much more.

All while facing no defensive physical restrictions the entire time, which basically lets him waltz his way to any position on the floor at will.

I will make a vid dissecting every single one of these easy scoring opportunities ushered in by today's rules, purposely changed to make it easier on perimeter scorers as per NBA officials in due time.

He is an awkward awkward player with bad balance, and not as strong at finishing as one might think. Actually kinda weak finisher at times.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]As a superstar.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM_eCnTNt1Q[/url]

Shows and explains why today's superstars have it harder with zone compared to last greats.[/QUOTE]




MJ virtually faced a lot of this situation like the video showed but he still couldn't be stopped.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]If zone isn't effective, then why even have the rule?

Even Jordan and many others said they hated zone. Jordan didn't have to deal with it until he played with the Wizards.[/QUOTE]




He hates zone doesn't mean he can't play well against zone.

With MJ's excellent off ball movement, post up which today's perimeter players are lack of, he can easily decode the zone. Not to mention his outstanding quick first step.

[QUOTE=iamgine]So from what I gather...the rule that you have to follow your man/guard someone was indeed an official rule in the past.

How much teams was actually affected by it and how much it was enforced was the debate. There are evidence for and against it.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this. Notice how most of the gifs are of the Knicks who openly pushed the limits of the rules. Notice the current era gifs are of various teams.....

[QUOTE=3ball]You've identified the difference in today's era and previous eras - in today's game, ballhandlers face more defense outside the paint ("to reach the paint" as you said), and consequently, they face less defense inside the paint.

Last I checked, a ballhandler's strength is beating defenders on the perimeter and all ballhandlers love doing it - with today's defenders on the perimeter away from the paint, the ballhandler has a shot at finishing in the paint against ZERO rim protection.. Whereas previous era ballhandlers faced paint-camping... Paint-camping > floods by a mile.[/QUOTE]
Everyone knows the eras are different 3ball, only some insecure knob jobs around here really wish to prove one is better than the other. Just as you can find gifs of open paint here, you can find ones with the paint clogged if you chose. But why would you do that? You also can find countless clips of Mj dunking with no resistance underneath the rim as well likewise, but since it doesn't fit your agenda you wont. Your info would hold much more weight if you acknowledge the other side of things and maybe even highlighted weak point from both eras and not just one.

What you've been doing here is basically post highlight clips from your favorite player over and over again.....

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Pretty much this. Notice how most of the gifs are of the Knicks who openly pushed the limits of the rules. Notice the current era gifs are of various teams.....
[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

So now the Knicks were the only team that played like that? Everyone else played that isolation defense with absolutely no help... is that your new 'debate' line? OK, let's go back 5 seasons, 1987 with the Indiana Pacers:

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/zXwjmS.gif[/IMG]

^3-2 isolation zone leads to triple team of Jordan at the top of the key and he runs into man waiting in the paint.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/CSrHmf.gif[/IMG]

^Strong side flood isolation zone, 3 bodies on MJ, forced to pass out.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/iQ7vsd.gif[/IMG]

^1-2-2 (Box and 1) isolation zone. 4 bodies waiting in the paint.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/KGA1dP.gif[/IMG]

^2-3 hybrid isolation zone leads to triple team.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/v-n-Ui.gif[/IMG]

^4 bodies clog the paint, stopping the drive, no foul. No dice.


I wonder who was keeping the shading stats back then :roll:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]:rolleyes:

So now the Knicks were the only team that played like that? Everyone else played that isolation defense with absolutely no help... is that your new 'debate' line? OK, let's go back 5 seasons, 1987 with the Indiana Pacers:

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/zXwjmS.gif[/IMG]

^3-2 isolation zone leads to triple team of Jordan at the top of the key and he runs into man waiting in the paint.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/CSrHmf.gif[/IMG]

^Strong side flood isolation zone, 3 bodies on MJ, forced to pass out.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/iQ7vsd.gif[/IMG]

^1-2-2 (Box and 1) isolation zone. 4 bodies waiting in the paint.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/KGA1dP.gif[/IMG]

^2-3 hybrid isolation zone leads to triple team.

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2015/v-n-Ui.gif[/IMG]

^4 bodies clog the paint, stopping the drive, no foul. No dice.


I wonder who was keeping the shading stats back then :roll:[/QUOTE]

Well really only one of those gifs you provided really fit what I'm addressing. The rest were double and triple teams, which is what the rules of the era dictate. You had to double or guard your man. Maybe a second could be considered that as well but it's really borderline.

It's pretty dim for a guy your age to run this whole 3ball shtick. If anything the older guys should be able to make the best comparisons of the eras but this place is what it is. Just posting gifs doesn't make your assertions true cuz. You responded by posting gifs of a different team doing different things.....

Just to be clear I'm not a fan of either agenda, but I'd like to see a real conversation instead of this shit.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Well really only one of those gifs you provided really fit what I'm addressing. The rest were double and triple teams, which is what the rules of the era dictate. You had to double or guard your man. Maybe a second could be considered that as well but it's really borderline.

It's pretty dim for a guy your age to run this whole 3ball shtick. If anything the older guys should be able to make the best comparisons of the eras but this place is what it is. Just posting gifs doesn't make your assertions true cuz. You responded by posting gifs of a different team doing different things.....

Just to be clear I'm not a fan of either agenda, [B]but I'd like to see a real conversation instead of this shit.[/B][/QUOTE]

You are absolutely full of shit my dude. I still don't even know what you're trying to 'debate' exactly.

I gave you factual, empirical data about the use of zone by the data company employed by the NBA itself... nope not good enough, they don't have 'shading' data and 'shading' is some new never before seen phenomena.

I show you specific examples from a playoff game in '92 where the defense played zone and exhibited 'shading'... nope not good enough, I was cherry-picking and the Knicks were the only team that played like that back then.

So I go back to the 80s, show you examples of the same from the Pacers... but of course you have a problem with that too.

So cards on the table time- what exactly are you trying to debate/have a conversation about?

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]You are absolutely full of shit my dude. I still don't even know what you're trying to 'debate' exactly.

I gave you factual, empirical data about the use of zone by the data company employed by the NBA itself... nope not good enough, they don't have 'shading' data and 'shading' is some new never before seen phenomena.

I show you specific examples from a playoff game in '92 where the defense played zone and exhibited 'shading'... nope not good enough, I was cherry-picking and the Knicks were the only team that played like that back then.

So I go back to the 80s, show you examples of the same from the Pacers... but of course you have a problem with that too.

So cards on the table time- what exactly are you trying to debate/have a conversation about?[/QUOTE]
There's no debate "i'm" trying to have you came in to criticize the video posted, so apparently you have the issue. I asked a question because you're being disingenuous. Playing stupid about exactly what I'm getting at screams you want no part of it. Although your lame ass know exactly what I'm getting at, I'll break it down one more time for you in slow person style so you can relate.

You posted a statistic about how often zone is used in the modern league.

I asked if it was full on zones or partial elements as well. (Shading a ball handler or half zones)

You're doing this cute little kid dance around the reason for the question.

I'm not part of whatever vendettas you got going on here bro. You know damn well that a team doesn't have to play full on zone in order to utilize advantages from the rule changes. You know exactly what significance the question has as well. You're a bulls fan correct? If so you know better bro.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]There's no debate "i'm" trying to have you came in to criticize the video posted, so apparently you have the issue. I asked a question because you're being disingenuous. Playing stupid about exactly what I'm getting at screams you want no part of it. Although your lame ass know exactly what I'm getting at, I'll break it down one more time for you in slow person style so you can relate.

You posted a statistic about how often zone is used in the modern league.

I asked if it was full on zones or partial elements as well. (Shading a ball handler or half zones)

You're doing this cute little kid dance around the reason for the question.

I'm not part of whatever vendettas you got going on here bro. You know damn well that a team doesn't have to play full on zone in order to utilize advantages from the rule changes. You know exactly what significance the question has as well. You're a bulls fan correct? If so you know better bro.[/QUOTE]

So in other words you keep typing paragraphs to say absolutely nothing. 'Partial Zones', 'Shading', etc whatever you want to call it (times were it was known as 'help defense' :oldlol: ), that has existed for many decades. It's not some new never before seen defense that was invented by Tom Thibodeau in 2010. I showed you specific examples of that, you cried cherry pick and complained that the Knicks were the one time-travelling team from the future who went back in time to play that way. :oldlol:

Fact is- there isn't a single defensive scheme or tactic around now that wasn't used in the past. Call it whatever you want, nitpick as much as your heart desires. But the flip side is true- there are plenty of schemes (particularly full court pressure/zones) and tactics (hand checking/camping in the paint) that players now never see. The NBA [I]explicitly[/I] changed the rules to make it easier for perimeter players to score. They weren't trying to hide their intentions. And it worked out exactly the way they planned.

"But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and [B]Jordan was making an impassioned plea[/B] before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. [B]Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.[/B]

And that was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

[url]http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba[/url]

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]"But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and [B]Jordan was making an impassioned plea[/B] before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. [B]Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.[/B]

And that was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

[url]http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba[/url][/QUOTE]

The f*ck?

Why was Jordan complaining about rule changes when he was retired (article says early 2001, right?)? Any other articles about that or any real actual direct quotes?

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]The f*ck?

Why was Jordan complaining about rule changes when he was retired (article says early 2001, right?)? Any other articles about that or any real actual direct quotes?[/QUOTE]
At that time, he already had part ownership with the Wizards and came back to play in the following season (2001-02). So maybe he didn't want the zone because he already knew he was going to play for the Wiz before he announced it? Thought it would hinder what he had left in the tank?

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]At that time, he already had part ownership with the Wizards and came back to play in the following season (2001-02). So maybe he didn't want the zone because he already knew he was going to play for the Wiz before he announced it? Thought it would hinder what he had left in the tank?[/QUOTE]

That doesn't make even a little bit of sense. Do they even let owners/current players make pleas in front of the rules committe let alone part owners/retired players? I know they accept video from GMs/coaches if it involves issues about reffing, but that's as far as I've heard. Sounds like complete hyperbole from Smith, but I'll give him benefit of the doubt. Any direct quotes/minutes from the meeting/other articles mentioning this?

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]That doesn't make even a little bit of sense. Do they even let owners/current players make pleas in front of the rules committe let alone part owners/retired players? I know they accept video from GMs/coaches if it involves issues about reffing, but that's as far as I've heard. Sounds like complete hyperbole from Smith, but I'll give him benefit of the doubt. [B]Any direct quotes/minutes from the meeting/other articles mentioning this?[/B][/QUOTE]
:confusedshrug:

You have just as much access to try to find more info as I do.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]"But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and [B]Jordan was making an impassioned plea[/B] before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. [B]Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.[/B]

And that was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

[url]http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba[/url][/QUOTE]

Great quote :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]:confusedshrug:

You have just as much access to try to find more info as I do.[/QUOTE]

I have a shitload of articles spanning like 15 years from 1986-2001 documenting the use of zone, rule changes, etc in the NBA... like tons of articles... not one that mentions a retired Jordan using his lunch break to make 'impassioned pleas' in front of the rule committee. First time I'm hearing about that. :oldlol:

Prime example, Dick Motta was an NBA head coach for 25 years and per Stu Jackson was one of the handful of people picked by Jerry Colangelo to work on the rules committee to tackle the rule changes:

[INDENT][B]How was the select committee on rules formed?[/B]

Jackson: The select committee was chaired by Jerry Colangelo, who was designated by David Stern to form the committee. Then Jerry selected what I feel are some of the best basketball minds in the history of the NBA game, guys like Jerry West, [B]Dick Motta[/B], Jack Ramsay and Bob Lanier. The focus was really to try to get as many years of experience on the committee as posible.[/INDENT]

Here's Motta in 1996:

[INDENT][B]What particularly bothers Motta is that many teams try to get away with zone defenses now, content to only be penalized by a technical foul. "[COLOR="Red"]Our teams are zoning now. Rule or no rule[/COLOR]. We're not allowed to use the word `zone' but it's a zone," Motta said.[/B]

-THE NBA HAS THIS RULE ABOUT ILLEGAL DEFENSE, BUT WHO CAN EXPLAIN IT, AND WILL IT EVER GO AWAY? A TWILIGHT ZONE (LA Daily News April 14, 1996 Scott Wolf)[/INDENT]


So one of the handful of guys charged with allowing 'zone' in the league was on the record (direct quote, take note) 5 years earlier in 1996 that teams were disregarding the rule and playing actual zone anyway. Can't find a word about Jordan going in front of Motta or anyone else on the committee to make 'impassioned pleas'. Strange.

[QUOTE=nba_55]Great quote :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:[/QUOTE]
Too bad TRUE zone was never implemented.

It's mostly zone by name.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo][I]Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.
[/I][/QUOTE]
Forward to years later and the very same man has mocked today's game and players. Because true zone was never applied.