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He was so good the Bulls replaced him with Pete Myers and got better defensively.
Then he returned in 1995 and the Bulls defensive rating went from 105.0 without him to 105.3 in the games he played, and a terrible 111.3 DRTG in the postseason.
Truly amazing impact. :bowdown:
[QUOTE=Jacks3]He was so good the Bulls replaced him with Pete Myers and got better defensively.
Then he returned in 1995 and the Bulls defensive rating went from 105.0 without him to 105.3 in the games he played, and a terrible 111.3 DRTG in the postseason.
Truly amazing impact. :bowdown:[/QUOTE]
:roll:
U could certainly argue MJ as the GOAT perimeter defender. But for me, the most UNIQUE perimeter defenders are the ones like Pippen, Rodman, Bobby Jones, Kirilenko, and Lebron. Those are the guys that could defend damn near any position on the court. So even though MJ was obviously a lockdown defender and arguably the best, I might lean to Pippen on this one. The versatility aspects of defending swing it Pip's way.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]He was so good the Bulls replaced him with Pete Myers and got better defensively.
Then he returned in 1995 and the Bulls defensive rating went from 105.0 without him to 105.3 in the games he played, and a terrible 111.3 DRTG in the postseason.
Truly amazing impact. :bowdown:[/QUOTE]
GOAT gonna GOAT...:yaohappy:
Boris Diaw is better and it's not close tbh
What separates MJ from other great defenders is, MJ also had to carry a huge offensive load that other top defenders didn't come close to.
And while i'm sure teams tried to tire out other wing defenders as they played defense, in an attempt to stop MJ they tried very hard to punish him as a defender as well. They ran his man throuh multiple hard screens, they grabbed him, elbowed him andwere more physical on MJ when he played defense.
But if we want to compare MJ to other star players and not simply defensive specialists, MJ was the most consistent.
Unlike most stars that save their energy for offense, he saved energy on offense FOR defense.
One of the most important defensive aspects is consistency, and that's where MJ kills the other stars. Any and every player is capable of playing good defense, but how many possessions can they do it for?
MJ is a very strong contender to having the GOAT perimeter defender based on all metrics.
GOAT gonna GOAT
1992 Bulls with Jordan: 4th in DRTG, -3.7 relative to league average
1993 Bulls with Jordan: 7th in DRTG, -1.9 relative to league average
1994 Bulls after replacing Jordan with the legendary Pete Myers: 6th in DRTG, -3.6 relative to league average
1995 Bulls pre-Jordan: 105.0 DRTG, -3.3 relative to league average
1995 Bulls after Jordan returned: 105.3 DRTG, -3.0 relative to league average
Guy leaves and his team gets better defensively.
He comes back and they get worse.
Truly the type of impact you'd expect from the GOAT perimeter defender.
Boy he was a real difference maker on the defensive side of the ball.
:bowdown:
[QUOTE=Jacks3]1992 Bulls with Jordan: 4th in DRTG, -3.7 relative to league average
1993 Bulls with Jordan: 7th in DRTG, -1.9 relative to league average
1994 Bulls after replacing Jordan with the legendary Pete Myers: 6th in DRTG, -3.6 relative to league average
1995 Bulls pre-Jordan: 105.0 DRTG, -3.3 relative to league average
1995 Bulls after Jordan returned: 105.3 DRTG, -3.0 relative to league average
Guy leaves and his team gets better defensively.
He comes back and they get worse.
Truly the type of impact you'd expect from the GOAT perimeter defender.
Boy he was a real difference maker on the defensive side of the ball.
:bowdown:[/QUOTE]
i've always said jordan is one of the greatest scorers, but that his defense was terribly overrated. like, pippen was the guy who led the bulls in net impact on that end from 1991-98.
btw, where do you rate pippen's defense all-time?
[B]That would be Pippen. Jordan is clearly one of the best perimeter defenders at the 2 spot but Pippen could guard 1-4 and had more defensive versatility. Pippen usually was the one guarding the other teams best offensive player. Jordan was physically and skill wise at a total advantage over the rest of the players at the 2 spot. Not so for Pippen.[/B]
[QUOTE=Jacks3]
1994 Bulls after replacing Jordan with the legendary Pete Myers: 6th in DRTG, -3.6 relative to league average
1995 Bulls pre-Jordan: 105.0 DRTG, -3.3 relative to league average
1995 Bulls after Jordan returned: 105.3 DRTG, -3.0 relative to league average
[/QUOTE]
The game isn't that simple.. You're forgetting how a team's offensive capability and output affects their defense.
It's amazing that the Bulls' offense went from 16th in the league WITHOUT Jordan, to #1 WITH Jordan, while essentially maintaining their same defensive rating and capability, as your own stats demonstrate.
Specifically, the Bulls' offense went from 106 ORtg in 1994 (16th in the league, and 15,874th all time) to 115.2 in 1996 (#1 in league, #1 all time), DESPITE the offense being bogged down by Rodman's 3 PPG.
Btw, the Bulls defense in 1993 regular season was understandably slightly down, because they rested a ton in the regular season so they could 3-peat, just like the Heat tried to do in 2014.
.
[QUOTE=3ball]Not sure exactly what one you are talking about - it might be one of the plays in these two three-minute clips that show defensive highlights in succession.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCbp-e7e100&t=33m08s[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=15m46s[/url]
btw, mj was probably the best blocker of center's shots... he blocked shaq, hakeem, robinson, ewing SOOOO many times.. that's why he's one of the best shot-blocking wing players ever - the only player to ever record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season.. he averaged 1.5 and 1.6 blocks in 87' and 88'.[/QUOTE]
It wasn't in there. I think it was later on in his career. If I remember correctly, he was fighting over a screen, fake like he was going one way, and while he was behind one of the players he went the other way with his arms out, somehow knowing that his opponent was going to pass the ball. I really can't explain it.
[QUOTE=bizil]U could certainly argue MJ as the GOAT perimeter defender. But for me, the most [B]UNIQUE perimeter defenders are the ones like Pippen, Rodman, Bobby Jones, Kirilenko, and Lebron. Those are the guys that could defend damn near any position on the court.[/B] So even though MJ was obviously a lockdown defender and arguably the best, I might lean to Pippen on this one. The versatility aspects of defending swing it Pip's way.[/QUOTE]
And what does that have to do with being a great [I]perimeter[/I] defender?
Versatile defender, sure, but you can't separate perimeter and post defense and then say 'this guys is a more impressive perimeter defender because he's also a great post defender' - that is irrelevant to the discussion.
[IMG]https://i.imgflip.com/kgiw3.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://gamedayr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/tony-allen-karaoke-.jpg[/IMG]
3ball, im curious... do you think anybody was better than Jordan at anything?
[QUOTE=pauk]3ball, im curious... do you think anybody was better than Jordan at anything?[/QUOTE]
I mean, its not like this is far fetched or something. He has just as good a case for goat perimeter defender as anybody.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]1992 Bulls with Jordan: 4th in DRTG, -3.7 relative to league average
1993 Bulls with Jordan: 7th in DRTG, -1.9 relative to league average
1994 Bulls after replacing Jordan with the legendary Pete Myers: 6th in DRTG, -3.6 relative to league average
1995 Bulls pre-Jordan: 105.0 DRTG, -3.3 relative to league average
1995 Bulls after Jordan returned: 105.3 DRTG, -3.0 relative to league average
Guy leaves and his team gets better defensively.
He comes back and they get worse.
Truly the type of impact you'd expect from the GOAT perimeter defender.
Boy he was a real difference maker on the defensive side of the ball.
:bowdown:[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.gifbin.com/bin/012012/1329414634_dog_slap.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=pauk]3ball, im curious... do you think anybody was better than Jordan at anything?[/QUOTE]
Tony Gwynn is better at hitting a curve ball I suppose.
Uhhhh....... That's all I got.:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Jacks3]1992 Bulls with Jordan: 4th in DRTG, -3.7 relative to league average
1993 Bulls with Jordan: 7th in DRTG, -1.9 relative to league average
1994 Bulls after replacing Jordan with the legendary Pete Myers: 6th in DRTG, -3.6 relative to league average
1995 Bulls pre-Jordan: 105.0 DRTG, -3.3 relative to league average
1995 Bulls after Jordan returned: 105.3 DRTG, -3.0 relative to league average
Guy leaves and his team gets better defensively.
He comes back and they get worse.
Truly the type of impact you'd expect from the GOAT perimeter defender.
Boy he was a real difference maker on the defensive side of the ball.
:bowdown:[/QUOTE]
The Bulls best defensive rating out of all the chips came when Pollen missed half the season.
[QUOTE=pauk]3ball, im curious... do you think anybody was better than Jordan at anything?[/QUOTE]
Isaac Newton may be a slightly better scientist but that's debatable because he's from a weak era of scientists. Newton discovered gravity but Jordan defies it. 23>9.81
[QUOTE=andgar923]Tony Gwynn is better at hitting a curve ball I suppose.
Uhhhh....... That's all I got.:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
That's only because Jordan chose to focus on other things. The same kinda thing as saying he'd be a Steph Curry-like 3pt shooter or a Magic-like passer if he wanted to.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]That's only because Jordan chose to focus on other things. The same kinda thing as saying he'd be a Steph Curry-like 3pt shooter or a [B]Magic-like passer if he wanted to[/B].[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/z6z7UXgOWVJ3fNn2Cc/giphy.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=swagga][IMG]http://media.giphy.com/media/z6z7UXgOWVJ3fNn2Cc/giphy.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Sarcasm
Jordan was a great defender. But he wasnt even the best defensive player on his own team for all 6 titles
And for 3 of them he was the 3rd best
MJ was a great defender but best of all time? Um, no. And you can find gifs like that for any good perimeter defender.
As others have said players that specialized in defence like Cooper or Rodman were just amazing, without always getting the accolades that MJ got. If i was a player, i'd much rather have Jordan trying to guard me than Rodman. Even for the simple fact that Rodman will focus 100% on just shutting you down, even if he never takes a single shot in the game. Jordan will gamble to make steals on you so he can get easy dunks...
[QUOTE=choppermagic]MJ was a great defender but best of all time? Um, no. And you can find gifs like that for any good perimeter defender.
As others have said players that specialized in defence like Cooper or Rodman were just amazing, without always getting the accolades that MJ got. If i was a player, i'd much rather have Jordan trying to guard me than Rodman. Even for the simple fact that Rodman will focus 100% on just shutting you down, even if he never takes a single shot in the game. Jordan will gamble to make steals on you so he can get easy dunks...[/QUOTE]
Um, no? Jordan might not be the greatest perimeter defender of all-time, but that's not inarguable where that type of response makes sense.
Cooper and Rodman got the same defensive accolades that Jordan got.
In the '90s, I was a young kid who idolized Michael Jordan - and the only basketball I really watched was the Bulls in the playoffs. So I don't know if he was the best perimeter defender back then.
I never watched anything before 1991, so I don't know if there were better defenders back then.
I only really started watching basketball closely around 2001... and I believe prime Jordan was a better perimeter than anyone that has played since then.
So yeah, he's the greatest perimeter defender I've ever seen. I can't comment on what I never saw.
[QUOTE=Dresta]And what does that have to do with being a great [I]perimeter[/I] defender?
Versatile defender, sure, but you can't separate perimeter and post defense and then say 'this guys is a more impressive perimeter defender because he's also a great post defender' - that is irrelevant to the discussion.[/QUOTE]
You're a clown! Perimeter defender means of all the guys who are perimeter players (PG, SG, SF), who is the best defender. For me, I went with Pippen because he has the VERSATILITY to separate him from the pack. He could guard PG, SG, and SF like MJ could. BUT Pip could defend the PF's as well because he was bigger. So for me that's a tiebreaker.
The most valuable defenders historically in basketball are versatile perimeter defenders and great paint protectors. A huge part of MJ's defensive skillset was his versatility to defend PG, SG, and SF.
Pippen just took that defensive skillset to the next level by being able to defend many big guys. That fact Pippen could guard anybody from Isiah Thomas to Karl Malone great DAMN SURE MAKES A DIFFERENCE!!
One thing about Jordan's defense that always amazed me was his ability to actually fully get in front of and cut off his man, often getting to the other side of the offensive player's body. This is different from what most defenders (even great defenders) do, which is to sorta get half in front of their man and angle him off with their body, preferably into help. Jordan actually fully cut guys' lanes off with his foot speed and anticipation, and I've never seen anyone else do it. He didn't do it all the time by any means either, but he did it enough. Examples here:
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSgyO_GTu60"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSgyO_GTu60[/URL] (gets his full body in front of Kittles and gets onto the other side of him before he finishes his initial moves - tremendous anticipation and footspeed)
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwSpGOH8X4#t=0m56s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwSpGOH8X4#t=0m56s[/URL] (same as above - notice where MJ's body is as he strips the ball - he's on the OTHER side of the offensive player, effectively beating him to the spot)
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7NwM2HxwU#t=1m57s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7NwM2HxwU#t=1m57s[/URL] (this is the actual game where the GIF in the OP was taken from)
[QUOTE=guy]Um, no? Jordan might not be the greatest perimeter defender of all-time, but that's not inarguable where that type of response makes sense.
Cooper and Rodman got the same defensive accolades that Jordan got.[/QUOTE]
DPOY :banana:
[QUOTE=Dro]I mean, its not like this is far fetched or something. He has just as good a case for goat perimeter defender as anybody.[/QUOTE]
Yes it is.
He has no case of even being the best on his own team, let alone all of the NBA at that time... or ever.
GOAT player, not even close to GOAT perimeter defender.
You can definitely make an argument. MJ had off the charts quickness. I think that's a part of his game that gets overlooked. His unreal quickness allowed him to blow by guys on offense and on D, always get to a spot quicker than the offensive player. His off the ball D was also unreal because of this.
MJ could never jump as high as some high leapers we have seen but no one in history, imo, had M's quickness and initial first step. That is what really set him apart.
Here's what Barkley thinks about the topic. At least for the Pippen, Jordan era.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=u69SCU79_O0#t=46[/url]
[QUOTE=ThickassGlasses]Yes it is.
He has no case of even being the best on his own team, let alone all of the NBA at that time... or ever.
GOAT player, not even close to GOAT perimeter defender.[/QUOTE]
Yeah...this is bullshit. lol @ "not even close to GOAT perimeter defender." At worst, he's no lower than the second or third best in terms of overall defensive impact. Some may have been comparable or slightly better than him in terms of man defense (Payton, Cooper), but they weren't even in his universe in terms of team/help defense and defensive disruption.
No case of being the best perimeter defender on his own team? Jordan was better defensively than Pippen through his first retirement- certainly through 1992 at a minimum.
I think Jordan was a better man defender than Pippen, but Pip was a better overall defender and more impactful.
Just cause you can guard 1-4 =/= greatest perimeter defender.
Jordan was the better defender, but Pippen is praised more cause MJ conserved himself during the second 3peat.
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224613[/url]
Johnny Bach:
[I]Who was the better defender? Pippen was one of the best and most gifted defenders of all time. But MJ was the better defender. Michael could shut down anyone in the world for a 3 minute span. The best he’s ever seen. (I was pretty shocked by that, but man what does that tell you about MJ, unbelievable.) Jordan was the most ferocious competitor Bach has seen in all his years of basketball. Johnny said physically Jordan and Pippen were about the same as defenders. But when you add in MJ’s ruthlessness and trash talk, that put him ahead of Scottie. When Johnny was coaching with the Hornets in 1995 they had a good team. Glen Rice, Mourning, Johnson. Series was tied at 2 and Hornets had a chance to win game 5 in Chicago. On the biggest possession of the game, Mugsy had the ball with the Hornets down 1. Jordan backed off of him and told him: “shoot it you ****ing midget.” Mugsy shot it, didn’t come close. A year later Mugsy actually told Johnny Bach that he believes that single play ruined his career. His shot never recovered. [/I]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213322[/url]
New York Daily News - November 3th 1996
Watching Jordan
[I]"To me, the better part of his game is his defense. He becomes very intense and disrupts in the same manner that K.C. Jones did for the Celtics," Chamberlain said. "There are guys who play Jordan who are afraid to put the ball down and afraid to pass. They're always looking and saying, 'Where the hell is Michael?' He'll steal the ball or cause you to do something you don't want to do. But Michael understands that we have always loved numbers and scoring and the point system. The people who score the touchdowns or score the baskets are the guys who get all the applause."[/I]
The greatest perimeter defender of all time is more than likely a non superstar specialist such as a Bruce Bowen or Tony Allen type player who didn't receive the hype that superstars got.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]I think Jordan was a better man defender than Pippen, but Pip was a better overall defender and more impactful.[/QUOTE]
I agree! Major elements of defense include man defense, team defense, and defensive versatility. Some people in this post are underestimating defensive versatility for some reason. Pip is close to MJ's level in terms of man defense and team defense. But Pip's defensive versatility is arguably the best of all time. That versatility is ENOUGH to give Pip the edge on MJ in terms of overall defense.
For example as great a defender as Chris Paul is, he can only defend PG's and some SG's. In comparison to Lebron who can defend PG, SG, SF, PF, and some centers. So even if CP3 is a better man defender, Bron is the more VALUABLE defender because of his versatility. That versatility gives his teams more flexiblity.
As we have seen, bigger perimeter guys like Magic and Bird gave MJ the most trouble in my opinion. A freak athlete like Pippen had the size and athletic ability to guard them more effectively. So once again, defensive versatility can be used as a tiebreaker if the other elements are close.