My definitive clutch discussion of Bran, Kobe, Curry, Jordan, etc

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]I honestly thought you'd have enough pride to accept that L... this isn't about OP's criteria, this is about the criteria that makes sense... the traditional ones I posted. How do you dig his criteria, at the same time dislike stuff like win-shares or not because it does the same things (account for team performance), then ask me to do just what you wanted, and really respond with this.... for an adult this is quite immature.

Hey, I didn't invent those stats, you're trying to shoot the messenger.[/QUOTE]

You are looking at these stats in a vacuum though.

Why do we not take into account that for the criteria you used (+-5, 4th quarter, 5 mins) that Lebron James was assisted on 23% (25/108) of his shots while Kobe was only assisted on 14% (13/91) of the makes??

There is so much more to what goes in a basketball game. You must must must realize that after watching these last playoffs that teams truly are not that afraid of a Lebron James jump shot. He very likely took much easier shots because of the sort of coverage that he faces. Teams dare him to shoot the jumper in big moments. It's not a knock of his efficiency in making it, but to compare them without context doesn't make any sort of sense.

If this is how we are going to compare players why not use Ray Allen. He gets to have superstars/perpetrators do the work of attracting defenders and he gets a clean look at a shot. Does that necessarily make him more clutch than these guys/better? No, it means that he is played differently, and is taking advantage when he can. If he had to play the superstar role and have that sort of coverage his ability would drop a lot.

That is why it is important to use data that takes into account more than just the shot. Clutch is not just making a shot. If Pau Gasol gets an offensive rebound and easy put back because Kobe gets doubled on a 13 foot fadeaway there is no statistic for it, but we all know what happened there. Same with TT - he is better cuz of the attention Bron gets. Data that tries to capsulate all those sort of tangential events gives us a clearer picture.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Kobe been Clutch...Ice Water in the Veins is what Doug Collins, Kerr, Bird, and all the Legends and commentators
say. I didn't really even need Ops Facts to know this...Eye Ball Test

By the Way, Kobe has the Most Game-Winners All-Time aswell:

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHyhCYOgTI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHyhCYOgTI[/URL]

All 36 Game-Winners, straight up Clutch God:bowdown: :bowdown:

[QUOTE=sundizz]You are looking at these stats in a vacuum though.

Why do we not take into account that for the criteria you used (+-5, 4th quarter, 5 mins) that Lebron James was assisted on 23% (25/108) of his shots while Kobe was only assisted on 14% (13/91) of the makes??

There is so much more to what goes in a basketball game. You must must must realize that after watching these last playoffs that teams truly are not that afraid of a Lebron James jump shot. He very likely took much easier shots because of the sort of coverage that he faces. Teams dare him to shoot the jumper in big moments. It's not a knock of his efficiency in making it, but to compare them without context doesn't make any sort of sense.

If this is how we are going to compare players why not use Ray Allen. He gets to have superstars/perpetrators do the work of attracting defenders and he gets a clean look at a shot. Does that necessarily make him more clutch than these guys/better? No, it means that he is played differently, and is taking advantage when he can. If he had to play the superstar role and have that sort of coverage his ability would drop a lot.

That is why it is important to use data that takes into account more than just the shot. Clutch is not just making a shot. If Pau Gasol gets an offensive rebound and easy put back because Kobe gets doubled on a 13 foot fadeaway there is no statistic for it, but we all know what happened there. Same with TT - he is better cuz of the attention Bron gets. Data that tries to capsulate all those sort of tangential events gives us a clearer picture.[/QUOTE]

no doubt.. lets not act like your stats are any more indicative of whats truly happening out there...

Kobe absolutely bails defenses out... you're smart enough to see this. Its his trigger happy attitude that makes it easier to shut him down, as defenses can prepare for whats coming. Thats also the biggest difference between Kobe and MJ, Kobe dances and puts these flashy moves, but the defender isnt going anywhere, ends up right in his grill on the shot.. where as MJ does one little subtle shake and bam, he has himself a shot. He can go to this in the clutch alot more frequently...
where as LeBron quite obviously sticks out as almost an exception, when we compare last second shots its very rare for an Individual, where the opponent KNOWS he's gonna shoot it, can end up with a shot as often as he can and HAS in the past... thats his advantage, the other one is his passing, threat out of double teams.

If you take a look at the Cavaliers' clutch stats from 2009 and 2010, even the Miami ones, LeBron has had those teams at the top of 4th quarter ranks for 6 straight seasons (2009-2014), thats elite.

Take from that what we know, and whatever you're trying to add here for Kobe, with "instilling attitude into his teammates"..

Appreciating the conversation though, rare these days on ISH :cheers:

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-29-2015/ARt4aU.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-29-2015/Wmj9io.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s8.postimg.org/3yppayxbp/ghyfdgfgd.jpg[/IMG]

MJ all day

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/0X7oDr.gif[/IMG]


This is from 1988, during a Bulls-Rockets game.

[B][SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]MJ scored 46% of the Bulls' 4th quarter points in 1988.. :confusedshrug:
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiBQ05cXt04&t=0m21s[/url]
.

As much as I love any metric that has Dirk at the top. I don't think net rating is great here. It's fine, but that more just shows how the team performed in those circumstances.

Dirk benefits here greatly by having Terry be so great in the clutch as well...and greatly benefits by Kidd/Marion/Tyson playing great defense down the stretch as well.

It would take a long time, but I'd like to see the averages and TS% and USG% per 100 possessions of clutch time (5 minutes left in 4th/OT...score between 5 points).

I'll do Dirk in 11 real quick: (clutch time averages per 100 possessions in the playoffs)

68 points / 11 rebounds / 3 assists....78% TS 41% USG

Shit, never mind....I forgot how otherworldly that actually was....:bowdown:

Very interesting on the net rating stat.. Goes to show that raw stats are very misleading when there's heavy ball dominance disparities between players.

That's why dirks the best.. he let's everyone do their thing while simultaneously killing it individually.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]As much as I love any metric that has Dirk at the top. I don't think net rating is great here. It's fine, but that more just shows how the team performed in those circumstances.

Dirk benefits here greatly by having Terry be so great in the clutch as well...and greatly benefits by Kidd/Marion/Tyson playing great defense down the stretch as well.

It would take a long time, but I'd like to see the averages and TS% and USG% per 100 possessions of clutch time (5 minutes left in 4th/OT...score between 5 points).

I'll do Dirk in 11 real quick: (clutch time averages per 100 possessions in the playoffs)

68 points / 11 rebounds / 3 assists....78% TS 41% USG

Shit, never mind....I forgot how otherworldly that actually was....:bowdown:[/QUOTE]

Thats the man they called choker for half a decade :rolleyes: American Sports Media is dumbed down hard... ESPN makes it simple for the sheep that eat their BS up. All about rangz.

Dirk is very realistically one of the clutchest players ever.

Dirk

:bowdown:

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]no doubt.. lets not act like your stats are any more indicative of whats truly happening out there...

Kobe absolutely bails defenses out... you're smart enough to see this. Its his [B]trigger happy attitude that makes it easier to shut him down, [/B]as defenses can prepare for whats coming. Thats also the biggest difference between Kobe and MJ, Kobe dances and puts these flashy moves, but the defender isnt going anywhere, ends up right in his grill on the shot.. where as MJ does one little subtle shake and bam, he has himself a shot. He can go to this in the clutch alot more frequently...
where as LeBron quite obviously sticks out as almost an exception, when we compare last second shots its very rare for an Individual, where the opponent KNOWS he's gonna shoot it, can end up with a shot as often as he can and HAS in the past... thats his advantage, the other one is his passing, threat out of double teams.

If you take a look at the Cavaliers' clutch stats from 2009 and 2010, even the Miami ones, LeBron has had those teams at the top of 4th quarter ranks for 6 straight seasons (2009-2014), thats elite.

Take from that what we know, and whatever you're trying to add here for Kobe, with "instilling attitude into his teammates"..

Appreciating the conversation though, rare these days on ISH :cheers:[/QUOTE]

When did you start watching Basketball? Because I already realized you never actually WATCHED Kobe and Shaq's playoff runs with Kobe balling his life out vs Kings, Spurs, Mavs, Portland exc...I know you never even seen his 48pt 16reb games during those 3 peats just in the way you talk and try to sum a game up solely using boxscores....But were you even watching the NBA when Kobe was in his scoring prime?? When he had 9 straight 40pt games just rapin the league? That should would have ESPN trippin these days...Or when he dropped 50pts in 4 straight games? Twitter would have been calling him the Greatest...How bout when he dropped 62pts thru 3 quarters vs Dirk's WCF team Mavs? You think they felt like it was "easy" to shut him down??

I know you troll alot here on these sites and its cool with me, I understand it, you hate Kobe's fans and LeBron just took a L this summer so I know you have to do damage control, but do you honestly watch games? Do you understand the bullsh!t that comes out of your face and infects your Keyboard?

[QUOTE=tpols]Very interesting on the net rating stat.. Goes to show that raw stats are very misleading when there's heavy ball dominance disparities between players.

That's why dirks the best.. he let's everyone do their thing while simultaneously killing it individually.[/QUOTE]

I'm saying...

New era fans that [I]just[/I] got into the game REALLY need to get with this impact estimated stuff. FGs made and attempted without showing how they're getting baskets (are they assisted? what kind of pressure are they putting on defenses?) while ignoring all the other stuff that goes into a game...is dated.

[QUOTE=branslowski]When did you start watching Basketball? Because I already realized you never actually WATCHED Kobe and Shaq's playoff runs with Kobe balling his life out vs Kings, Spurs, Mavs, Portland exc...I know you never even seen his 48pt 16reb games during those 3 peats just in the way you talk and try to sum a game up solely using boxscores....But were you even watching the NBA when Kobe was in his scoring prime?? When he had 9 straight 40pt games just rapin the league? That should would have ESPN trippin these days...Or when he dropped 50pts in 4 straight games? Twitter would have been calling him the Greatest...How bout when he dropped 62pts thru 3 quarters vs Dirk's WCF team Mavs? You think they felt like it was "easy" to shut him down??

I know you troll alot here on these sites and its cool with me, I understand it, you hate Kobe's fans and LeBron just took a L this summer so I know you have to do damage control, but do you honestly watch games? Do you understand the bullsh!t that comes out of your face and infects your Keyboard?[/QUOTE]

The shit that gets posted on here and you yap and start an essay about Kobe having a trigger happy attitude, like this is actually refutable? :roll:

Go find something else to fantasize and go back 10+ years in time for Kobe's 40 pt streak and what not.. this feels like MJ fans having nothing left but history and Space Jam to talk about.

[QUOTE=tpols]Very interesting on the net rating stat.. Goes to show that raw stats are very misleading when there's heavy ball dominance disparities between players.

That's why dirks the best.. he let's everyone do their thing while simultaneously killing it individually.[/QUOTE]

That works great if your teammates step up and play great as well though.

Like I said above, I'm all for praising Dirk as you know, but that net rating has a ton to do with Terry, Kidd, Marion, and Chandler....especially the defensive stuff.

Dirk was amazing, but he also was allowed to be amazing because his teammates were so great as well.

Can't separate the two much here on net rating. So intertwined.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]That works great if your teammates step up and play great as well though.

Like I said above, I'm all for praising Dirk as you know, but that net rating has a ton to do with Terry, Kidd, Marion, and Chandler....especially the defensive stuff.

Dirk was amazing, but he also was allowed to be amazing because his teammates were so great as well.

Can't separate the two much here on net rating. So intertwined.[/QUOTE]

yea, alot of those team stats are circumstantial... Dirk's individual ones do the job just fine illustrating how amazing he was.. anything else was out of his hands (he obviously did a great job comforting those teammates, not sure how many guys have his leadership besides the MJ/TD/LJ group).

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]The shit that gets posted on here and you yap and start an essay about Kobe having a trigger happy attitude, like this is actually refutable? :roll:

Go find something else to fantasize and go back 10+ years in time for Kobe's 40 pt streak and what not.. this feels like MJ fans having nothing left but history and Space Jam to talk about.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for answering my question...You obviously didn't even watch Kobe during his prime..Thus you missed a sh!t load of clutchness and epic scoring games that would have you piss yourself....Imagine Bron scoring 50 in 4 straight games? U'd lose your sh!t...

But at the end of the day, knowing you never watched any of Kobe/Shaq run yet comment on it is like a virgin tellin me the bad b!tch next door got some stink loose pusse yet he never hit it...What he don't know is that I hit it, and that pusse was tight and smelt like Summer Breeze Tropical Berry.

That's the last time I will respond with truth and facts to you though, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt...But just like other new school Bron stans you didn't even watch Kobe at his scoring best...such a shame...."Easier to shut him down":facepalm

ArbitraryWater straight up owning folks here.

Honestly, Kobe fans are better off talking about fadeawayz, alphaness and mean looks than numbers when it comes to LeBron. Their boy is simply not winning any battles against him if we're talking statistics. Be it last 5 minutes, last 2 minutes, last shots, +/- in crunch time, LeBron's always been better.

[QUOTE=branslowski]:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Kobe been Clutch...Ice Water in the Veins is what Doug Collins, Kerr, Bird, and all the Legends and commentators
say. I didn't really even need Ops Facts to know this...Eye Ball Test

By the Way, Kobe has the Most Game-Winners All-Time aswell:

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHyhCYOgTI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHyhCYOgTI[/URL]

All 36 Game-Winners, straight up Clutch God:bowdown: :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

Kobe, MJ and Dirk... 3 of the clutches players in the modern era. :applause:

You might want to throw Steph in that mix too. Unlike LeBron, he actually closed 4th quarters in this last finals.

Kobe with 2 of performances his in the top 10. Greatness man, appreciate it.

I also knew Dirk was clutch, but some of these numbers are staggering. Dude looking like peak Bird over here. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Indian guy]ArbitraryWater straight up owning folks here.

Honestly, Kobe fans are better off talking about fadeawayz, alphaness and mean looks than numbers when it comes to LeBron. Their boy is simply not winning any battles against him if we're talking statistics. Be it last 5 minutes, last 2 minutes, last shots, +/- in crunch time, LeBron's always been better.[/QUOTE]

A LeBron stan saying another LeBron stan owning cause they both butthurt over LeBron's empty stats that leads to another Finals L, how cute... 2/6:roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=branslowski]A LeBron stan saying another LeBron stan owning cause they both butthurt over LeBron's empty stats that leads to another Finals L, how cute... 2/6:roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]

2 of 6 doe, meanwhile godbe 5 of 7 points, 81 ringz :bowdown:

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]2 of 6 doe, meanwhile godbe 5 of 7 points, 81 ringz :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

:bowdown:

[QUOTE=Indian guy]ArbitraryWater straight up owning folks here.

Honestly, Kobe fans are better off talking about [B]fadeawayz, alphaness and mean looks[/B] than numbers when it comes to LeBron. Their boy is simply not winning any battles against him if we're talking statistics. Be it last 5 minutes, last 2 minutes, last shots, +/- in crunch time, LeBron's always been better.[/QUOTE]

[URL=http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/MaleRuler/media/Basketball/Kobe%20Bryant/120115-kobe-590_zpsdc8mzj2u.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/Basketball/Kobe%20Bryant/120115-kobe-590_zpsdc8mzj2u.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

MAMBAA! Intimidating AS F[COLOR="Black"]UC[/COLOR]K.. this is what it means to INSTILL a winning attitude into your teammates, and straight FEAR into your opponents.. :bowdown:

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]^Wait, shots to tie or take the lead? What would be the point of a 5 margin under that criteria?

Correct your lists, and maybe I'll take you seriously. Godspeed young foreigner. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

You destroyed that clown. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater][URL=http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/MaleRuler/media/Basketball/Kobe%20Bryant/120115-kobe-590_zpsdc8mzj2u.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/Basketball/Kobe%20Bryant/120115-kobe-590_zpsdc8mzj2u.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

MAMBAA! Intimidating AS F[COLOR="Black"]UC[/COLOR]K.. this is what it means to INSTILL a winning attitude into your teammates, and straight FEAR into your opponents.. :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZZKU24N.jpg[/IMG]

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=catch24]You destroyed that clown. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

It's not very hard tbf. Little Arby has had a plethora of self ethers on ISH.

That one where he got caught stealing posts from another user was absolute GOLD. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]It's not very hard tbf. Little Arby's had a plethora of self ethers on ISH.

[B]That one where he was caught stealing posts from another user [/B]was absolute GOLD. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

:biggums:

Mighty and catch24 going full tag team on us like

[IMG]http://i.gyazo.com/63adf31fe5310e1537947b3dfe92cae8.png[/IMG]



branslowski trna join in


[IMG]http://i.gyazo.com/c4f1f567ee2f404e1bb878de7d9248a8.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Mighty and catch24 going full tag team on us like

[IMG]http://i.gyazo.com/63adf31fe5310e1537947b3dfe92cae8.png[/IMG]



branslowski trna join in


[IMG]http://i.gyazo.com/c4f1f567ee2f404e1bb878de7d9248a8.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

:facepalm Just quit bro, you takin L's Like LeBron did....Picture rated 2/6

[quote]Jordan[/quote]
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322375"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322375[/URL]

-In his entire playoff career during [I]"crunch time"[/I], Jordan was converting at a rate of 62.5% TS and 52.0% FG on [B]enormous [/B]volume (37.5 FGA/48). Though he did drop off a bit in 1998.

-At his peak from 1990-92 those figures increase to 70.7% TS and 62.2% FG on even higher volume (39.8 FGA/48).

This game below is a perfect example. Everything is going to the basket.

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMLpMAFNpo4&t=3m39s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMLpMAFNpo4&t=3m39s[/URL]


From 1985-1998 in the playoffs, his playoff scoring rate from "non-crunch time" to "crunch time" increased by 1.64 (At his 1990-92 peak it nearly doubles).

His FG% increases from 48.4% to 52.0%, while TS% goes from 56.2% to 62.5% (At 1990-92 peak his FG% goes up by 11.9%, while TS% goes up by 13.1%.

His steals rate also increase by 1.7 (At 1990-92 peak this more than doubles) [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMLpMAFNpo4&t=3m39s"][/URL]

[QUOTE=3ball]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/0X7oDr.gif[/IMG]


This is from 1988, during a Bulls-Rockets game.

[B][SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]^^^^^ It says that MJ scored 46% of the Bulls' 4th quarter points in 1988
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiBQ05cXt04&t=0m21s[/url]
.[/QUOTE]

[B]I guess this is why they called MJ's supporting cast the [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367912][u]"Jordanaires"[/u][/url].[/B]
.

[QUOTE=branslowski][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZZKU24N.jpg[/IMG]

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Honestly, 2-4 sounds a lot better than 2/6. LeBron fans should report it as W-L like that.

[QUOTE=branslowski][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZZKU24N.jpg[/IMG]

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]


That pic says it all, no wonder Bran wasn't allowed to stand with the others

I never understood why people thought that LeBron, the NBA LEADER in PPG in elimination games, is not clutch.