bro relax, no one takes anyone saying Lebron or Kobe is better than Jordan seriously except their most hardcore fans, which will get drowned out after the off-season.
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bro relax, no one takes anyone saying Lebron or Kobe is better than Jordan seriously except their most hardcore fans, which will get drowned out after the off-season.
[QUOTE=3ball]If teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, offensive players would occupy the paint much more often... However, for today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.
The "[i]armslength[/i]" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "[I]with no time restriction[/I]" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side:
[INDENT][I][COLOR="Blue"]2b[/COLOR]. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area [COLOR="Blue"]with no time limitations[/COLOR]. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.[/I][/INDENT]
Otoh, today's "armslength" restriction and "2.9 seconds" time limit in the paint eliminates the majority of time a defender can be in the paint - and this language is unique to today's rules - there was no such language in the rules governing paint defense of previous eras.. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm NO IT DOESN'T.
-I can go run into the paint when I'm nowhere near anyone
-this causes an imaginary 3 second clock to start
-if I step one toe out of the paint, that clock resets
-if another player comes withing a few feet of me, it resets.
What about this do you not understand? It takes a fraction of a second to leave the paint and come back. If I wanted to, I could stand in the paint for 95% of every possession every game all season.......the problem is, they'll put my guy into a PnR, so I'll have to leave the paint to defend that, or my man will be a good shooter, so I'll have to leave the paint and stay closer to him.
Let's say the Thunder and playing the Grizz. Marc Gasol wants to chill in the paint to stifle Westbrook all day, and his primary man is Steve Adams. Adams cannot shoot, so Gasol is comfortable staying near the basket. The Thunder would then bring Adams up to give Westbrook a pick, meaning they have a mini 2-on-1 with whoever is guarding Westbrook's, unless Gasol leaves the paint to guard the PnR. BUT, if the big setting the pick isn't a competent scorer, Gasol will still stay with one foot in the paint, dropping back to stifle any Westbrook drive, and any Adams roll.
This wouldn't be the case if you didn't have shooters to space the PnR, because the drive could be checked by one of the players uninvolved in the PnR.
God dammit, I'm supposed to be writing an essay for school, not to educate you.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
[B]Spacing isn't just keeping defenders spread out.[/B] You played ball, you know this.
triangle made sure that guys were moving and passing efficiently, so that even off the ball their defender had to pay attention to them even if they weren't a three point shooter.
[/quote]
No, that's EXACTLY what it is.
[I]Keeping defenders spread out is the objective of spacing so defenders are forced to help from further distances[/I].
Don't try to convince me that a team that took 5 threes per game has today's spacing - you sound like a fool.. Defenders in previous eras didn't have to help from as far away as today's teams that take 22 threes per game.. Again, it's physics and inarguable.
.
[B]We have clear proof that MJ's 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:
[/B]
We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.
[COLOR="Navy"]If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast)[/COLOR], then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..
Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s]he faced[/url] were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced his 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
.
[QUOTE=3ball][I]2nd year Pippen's 14/6/4 is better than ALL-STAR Mo William's 17/4/6??...
And even if you adjust the stats 10% for pace, MJ's 33/8/8/54 is still > Lebron's 28/8/7/49, yet Lebron's team won 19 more games.
[/I]
If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..
Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s]MJ faced[/url] were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and 1 man show he that was is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.[/QUOTE]
MJ before Pippen and GRANT (who had a FAR greater IMPACT than POS Bosh did with Lebron)...a LOSER. IMMEDIATELY after getting Pippen and Grant...a winning record. AND, because of those TWO, MJ was finally able to beat the crumbling bad boys in '91. Three straight world titles in which PIPPEN and GRANT were HUGE. Then, without MJ...a 55-27, and NEAR TITLE.
Then, MJ returned, but couldn't overcome the loss of ELITE PF Grant, who just killed his Bulls in the '95 ECF's. So, Jackson ADDED HOFer Rodman, and the rest was history.
Meanwhile, 19 year old Lebron joined a 17-65 Cavs team with its LAUGHABLE all-star center (who was just a joke BTW), and immediately DOUBLED their win total. A couple of years later he took that same cast of clowns to their first ever Finals. And he followed that up by single-handedly carrying them to an all-time franchise record of 66-16, and then 61-21 (with ZERO help.)
Ok, Lebron leaves for a Miami team that was first round cannon fodder before he arrived. How about his former Cavs team...all the way down to a 19-63 record. And, in his first season in Miami, they climb all the way to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In his four years in Miami, three of which were with a broken down Wade, and a non-factor in Bosh...FOUR straight Finals, and two world titles,...and by ALL accounts, the best player in the world.
Lebron then leaves the Heat...who immediately plunged to a 37-45 record, and with a washed up Wade, and a worthless Bosh...a losing record, and couldn't even get into the playoffs in a horribly weak conference.
Meanwhile, Lebron immediatlely improved the injury-riddled Cavs from a 33-49 record, to a 53-29 record, and yet, ANOTHER trip to the Finals. Oh, and with his second best player, JR Smith putting up a 12-4-1 .312 series, all Lebron did was single-handedly win TWO games, and nearly TWO more, against a 67-15 Warrior team that just slaughtered the NBA.
THOSE was the DIFFERENCES.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]MJ before Pippen and GRANT (who had a FAR greater IMPACT than POS Bosh did with Lebron)...a LOSER. IMMEDIATELY after getting Pippen and Grant...a winning record. AND, because of those TWO, MJ was finally able to beat the crumbling bad boys in '91. Three straight world titles in which PIPPEN and GRANT were HUGE. [B]Then, without MJ...a 55-27, and NEAR TITLE. [/B]
Then, MJ returned, but couldn't overcome the loss of ELITE PF Grant, who just killed his Bulls in the '95 ECF's. So, Jackson ADDED HOFer Rodman, and the rest was history.
Meanwhile, 19 year old Lebron joined a 17-65 Cavs team with its LAUGHABLE all-star center (who was just a joke BTW), and immediately DOUBLED their win total. A couple of years later he took that same cast of clowns to their first ever Finals. And he followed that up by single-handedly carrying them to an all-time franchise record of 66-16, and then 61-21 (with ZERO help.)
Ok, Lebron leaves for a Miami team that was first round cannon fodder before he arrived. How about his former Cavs team...all the way down to a 19-63 record. And, in his first season in Miami, they climb all the way to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. In his four years in Miami, three of which were with a broken down Wade, and a non-factor in Bosh...FOUR straight Finals, and two world titles,...and by ALL accounts, the best player in the world.
Lebron then leaves the Heat...who immediately plunged to a 37-45 record, and with a washed up Wade, and a worthless Bosh...a losing record, and couldn't even get into the playoffs in a horribly weak conference.
Meanwhile, Lebron immediatlely improved the injury-riddled Cavs from a 33-49 record, to a 53-29 record, and yet, ANOTHER trip to the Finals. Oh, and with his second best player, JR Smith putting up a 12-4-1 .312 series, all Lebron did was single-handedly win TWO games, and nearly TWO more, against a 67-15 Warrior team that just slaughtered the NBA.
THOSE was the DIFFERENCES.[/QUOTE]
Winning a first round series = NEAR TITLE now? :roll:
A real NEAR TITLE was the '68 Lakers making it to the finals the season before Wilt joined the team. :yaohappy:
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Winning a first round series = NEAR TITLE now? :roll:
A real NEAR TITLE was the '68 Lakers making it to the finals the season before Wilt joined the team. :yaohappy:[/QUOTE]
You mean the '68 Lakers with Imhoff, Clark, and Goodrich, and their combined 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and getting routed in game six of the Finals? The same Imhoff and Clark who combined for 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shot .510 in the first round of the '69 playoffs...and with HOFer Cunningham and his 24 ppg in that series (the same Cunningham who missed all seven games of the '68 EDF's)...all in a BLOWOUT series LOSS?
As for the '94 Bulls...they not only went 55-27 in the regular season, Pippen and Grant missed 22 games combined, or, they surely would have won 60+ games. And that would have been HUGE. Why? Because they lost a close seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks, in a series in which they went 3-0 at HOME. Then, the Knicks beat a Pacers team that the Bulls pounded 4-1 in the regular season, before taking the 58-24 Rockets to a game seven, four point loss, in a series in which they outscored Houston.
So, an emphatic YES...a NEAR title.
Interesting too, that the '95 Bulls added 20 ppg scorer and elite defender Ron Harper, to a 55-27 team (that should have won 60+ games), and with MJ playing at nearly the same post-season level that he did in '93, and considerably better than he would in '96...but, now without ELITE PF Grant...a second round 4-2 series loss (and Grant was the best player in that series BTW)...to a Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.
Phil took one look at that roster, and decided...hey, we have NO chance og contending for a title. So he went out and added HOFer Rodman. Think about that...MJ basically replaced Grant from a 55 win team that should have won 60+...added Harper, and then added Rodman. No wonder they went 72-10. That team likely would have won a title without MJ.
Typical copy and paste spasm I expected. Fact is the Lakers right before Wilt got there had made it to the finals and lost to the Celtics... he gets there, they make it to the finals... and lost to the Celtics. Wilt had one of his patented finals averaging 11.7 PPG while his teammate won Finals MVP in a losing effort. :applause:
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]You mean the '68 Lakers with Imhoff, Clark, and Goodrich, and their combined 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and getting routed in game six of the Finals? The same Imhoff and Clark who combined for 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shot .510 in the first round of the '69 playoffs...and with HOFer Cunningham and his 24 ppg in that series (the same Cunningham who missed the seven game '68 EDF's)...all in a BLOWOUT series LOSS?
As for the '94 Bulls...they not only went 55-27 in the regular season, Pippen and Grant missed 22 games combined, or, they surely would have won 60+ games. And that would have been HUGE. Why? Because they lost a close seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks, in a series in which they went 3-0 at HOME. Then, the Knicks beat a Pacers team that the Bulls pounded 4-1 in the regular season, before taking the 58-24 Rockets to a game seven, four point loss, in a series in which they outscored Houston.
So, an emphatic YES...a NEAR title.
[B]Interesting too, that the '95 Bulls added 20 ppg scorer and elite defender Ron Harper, to a 55-27 team[/B] (that should have won 60+ games), and with MJ playing at nearly the same post-season level that he did in '93, and considerably better than he would in '96...but, now without ELITE PF Grant...a second round 4-2 series loss (and Grant was the best player in that series BTW)...to a Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.
Phil took one look at that roster, and decided...hey, we have NO chance og contending for a title. So he went out and added HOFer Rodman. Think about that...MJ basically replaced Grant from a 55 win team that should have won 60+...added Harper, and then added Rodman. No wonder they went 72-10. That team likely would have won a title without MJ.[/QUOTE]
Interesting that the Bulls were on pace for a 42 win season in '95 before Jordan came back (on pace for 63 wins with him). But if you think the Clippers or the Bulls had a NEAR TITLE this year too, more power to you :yaohappy:
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Typical copy and paste spasm I expected. Fact is the Lakers right before Wilt got there had made it to the finals and lost to the Celtics... he gets there, they make it to the finals... and lost to the Celtics. Wilt had one of his patented finals averaging 11.7 PPG while his teammate won Finals MVP in a losing effort. :applause:
Interesting that the Bulls were on pace for a 42 win season in '95 before Jordan came back (on pace for 63 wins with him). But if you think the Clippers or the Bulls had a NEAR TITLE this year too, more power to you :yaohappy:[/QUOTE]
You mean the '95 Bulls without BOTH MJ and GRANT?
Here is all you need to know about GRANT's impact. In the '94 season, the Bulls went 48-22 in the games in which he played.
Add THAT Grant to the 34-31 Bulls that Pippen was SINGLE-HANDEDLY carrying...and in those same 17 games, the Bulls would have gone, at worst, 12-5...or nearly what MJ added when HE came back.
BTW, Grant IMMEDIATELY improved the 50-32 Magic to a 57-25 record (and then 60-22 and was putting a 17-12 .656 post-season in '96 when he went down in game one of the ECF's.)
And again, Pippen had a WINNING record without BOTH MJ and GRANT. What was MJ's record without PIPPEN and GRANT?
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]You mean the '95 Bulls without BOTH MJ and GRANT?
Here is all you need to know about GRANT's impact. In the '94 season, the Bulls went 48-22 in the games in which he played.
Add THAT Grant to the 34-31 Bulls that Pippen was SINGLE-HANDEDLY carrying...and in those same 17 games, the Bulls would have gone, at worst, 12-5...or nearly what MJ added when HE came back.
BTW, Grant IMMEDIATELY improved the 50-32 Magic to a 57-25 record (and then 60-22 and was putting a 17-12 .656 post-season in '96 when he went down in game one of the ECF's.)[/QUOTE]
Horace Grant impact>Wilt impact :applause:
[QUOTE]And again, Pippen had a WINNING record without BOTH MJ and GRANT. What was MJ's record without PIPPEN and GRANT?[/QUOTE]
We counting the time they spent as bench scrubs and the Bulls won 50? :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Horace Grant impact>Wilt impact :applause:
We counting the time they spent as bench scrubs and the Bulls won 50? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Yeah...Grant replaced 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and took his team to a game seven two point loss in the Finals, in a game in which he watched the last five minutes from the bench.
BTW, the '69 Lakers were ONE PLAY away from winning that series, 4-1. In game four, with LA leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87 with only a few seconds remaining, and with the BALL...VBK put the ball in the hands of West...oh wait, Egan...who was promptly stripped, and then Sam Jones, while falling down, hit the game winner at the buzzer. Given Chamberlain's domination of Russell in a game five romp over Boston...that ONE PLAY cost the '69 Lakers a sure title.
And yes, we are counting the time in which they showed MJ how to play with teammates, and basically turned him into a winner.
[QUOTE=ralph_e_il]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rW270Q6.gif[/IMG]
[B]It takes a fraction of a second to leave the paint and come back.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
[i]Again, you're forgetting that the paint is 16 x 19 feet.. So it's not just a tippy-toe in and out - it's an EIGHT FOOT distance that a weakside defender must travel from the weakside block to under the rim, so they can contest a strongside penetrator.[/i]
But today's armslength restriction PREVENTS a defender from remaining under the rim while his man is 8 feet away on the block - that's why Speights can't stay under the rim to contest Lebron above - the armslength restriction forces him to follow Tristan Thompson to the weakside block to stay within armslength.. :facepalm
Whereas in previous eras, Speights could remain under the rim "with no time restriction", anytime his man is in the paint already, or within 3 feet of either side - these conditions are met by Tristan Thompson in the GIF, and they usually are when teams don't shoot 3-pointers:
[INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]2b[/COLOR]. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area [COLOR="Blue"]with no time limitations[/COLOR]. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.[/INDENT]
[QUOTE=ralph_e_il]
[B]without 3 competant 3 shooters on the floor, today's teams could still cram the paint.
[/B]
[/QUOTE]
If teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, offensive players would occupy the paint much more often, where the defensive rules are stricter than prior eras... For today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.
The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side..
Therefore, if today's teams didn't shoot 3-pointers, defenders would be more restricted than previous eras, since offensive players would be occupying the paint much more and today's rules for paint defense are MUCH more restrictive than prior eras (although today's defensive rules for [I]outside[/I] the paint allow more freedom strategically... but still not physically because of hand-check band and bans on other physicality).
.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]:roll: :roll: :roll:
Yeah...Grant replaced 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and took his team to a game seven two point loss in the Finals, in a game in which he watched the last five minutes from the bench.[/QUOTE]
I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure Horace put up more than 11.7 PPG in a final series during his time. :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE][B]BTW, the '69 Lakers were ONE PLAY away from winning that series, 4-1[/B]. In game four, with LA leading the series, 2-1, and leading 88-87 with only a few seconds remaining, and with the BALL...VBK put the ball in the hands of West...oh wait, Egan...who was promptly stripped, and then Sam Jones, while falling down, hit the game winner at the buzzer. Given Chamberlain's domination of Russell in a game five romp over Boston...that ONE PLAY cost the '69 Lakers a sure title.[/QUOTE]
Probably would've been a lot less close and a Lakers' W if Wilt had put up more than 11.7 PPG in that series. :confusedshrug:
But at least it's a gret trivia question now- who is the only player in NBA History to win a finals MVP on a losing team.
Answer: Dippy's teammate Jerry West FTW. :applause:
[QUOTE]And yes, we are counting the time in which they showed MJ how to play with teammates, and basically turned him into a winner.[/QUOTE]
So the season that Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins, won the MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, even an ASG MVP... he was shown how to win by a couple of 7 PPG bench scrubs?
Wow, Horace really is the GOAT. Maybe Dippy could've won as many rings as him if he had that same magic fairy dust that turned players into winners from the bench.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure Horace put up more than 11.7 PPG in a final series during his time. :confusedshrug:
Probably would've been a lot less close and a Lakers' W if Wilt had put up more than 11.7 PPG in that series. :confusedshrug:
[B]But at least it's a gret trivia question now- who is the only player in NBA History to win a finals MVP on a losing team.
Answer: Dippy's teammate Jerry West FTW.[/B] :applause:
So the season that Jordan led the Bulls to 50 wins, won the MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, even an ASG MVP... he was shown how to win by a couple of 7 PPG bench scrubs?
Wow, Horace really is the GOAT. Maybe Dippy could've won as many rings as him if he had that same magic fairy dust that turned players into winners from the bench.[/QUOTE]
Of course Wilt did even better in the '72 Finals, than West did in the '69 Finals, when he carried his team to a dominating world title (19-23-4-7 .600 FG%), as well as a FMVP...all while West was shooting .325 from the field in that Finals.
Just goes to show you what a difference a COACH makes. The idiotic VBK threw all his eggs in West's basket (well, Baylor's too), and it led to defeat. Had he put Chamberlain in command, it likely would have been a romp to a world title in '69.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Of course Wilt did even better in the '72 Finals, than West did in the '69 Finals, when he carried his team to a dominating world title (19-23-4-7 .600 FG%), as well as a FMVP...all while West was shooting .325 from the field in that Finals.
Just goes to show you what a difference a COACH makes. The idiotic VBK threw all his eggs in West's basket (well, Baylor's too), and it led to defeat. Had he put Chamberlain in command, it likely would have been a romp to a world title in '69.[/QUOTE]
Oh, so it was the coach's fault that Dippy could only muster 11.7 PPG in a tight 7 game finals series where his teammate won MVP?
Got it.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Oh, so it was the coach's fault that Dippy could only muster 11.7 PPG in a tight 7 game finals series where his teammate won MVP?
Got it.[/QUOTE]
EXACTLY. And that was why he was essentially fired immediately after the '69 Finals. Then, the Lakers brought in Joe Mullaney, whose first order of business was to have WILT become the focal point of the Laker offense. And sure enough, in the first nine games of the '70 season, it was WILT leading the league in scoring at 32.2 (on a .579 FG% to go along with 20.6 rpg)...when, in game nine, he shredded the same knee that he injured in game seven of the '69 Finals.
[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]EXACTLY. And that was why he was essentially fired immediately after the '69 Finals. Then, the Lakers brought in Joe Mullaney, whose first order of business was to have WILT become the focal point of the Laker offense. [/QUOTE]
And the Lakers proceeded to lose a second straight 7 game finals series, this time to the Knicks with a one-legged Willis Reed at Center (Reed having used Wilt as toilet paper when healthy in that series). :confusedshrug:
Let me guess, the new coach was also to blame.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]And the Lakers proceeded to lose a second straight 7 game finals series, this time to the Knicks with a one-legged Willis Reed at Center (Reed having used Wilt as toilet paper when healthy in that series). :confusedshrug:
Let me guess, the new coach was also to blame.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:
A ONE-LEGGED Chamberlain played a HEALTHY Reed to a draw in the first four games (Reed shot .423 from the field in those two losses, and was brutalized on the glass by Chamberlain.)
And from that point on, Chamberlain was, BY FAR, the most dominant player in the series. In the last three games, he averaged 29.3 ppg, 23.6 rpg, and shot .710 from the field. All at nowhere NEAR 100%.
Had West not been abused by Frazier in game seven, who knows how that game turns out.
But go ahead...I want you to give us a GOAT-level player, who came back FOUR MONTHS from MAJOR KNEE SURGERY, and put up a 23-24 .625 FG% Finals.
You "bashers" are hilarious.
[QUOTE=3ball]No, that's EXACTLY what it is.
[I]Keeping defenders spread out is the objective of spacing so defenders are forced to help from further distances[/I].
Don't try to convince me that a team that took 5 threes per game has today's spacing - you sound like a fool.. Defenders in previous eras didn't have to help from as far away as today's teams that take 22 threes per game.. Again, it's physics and inarguable.[/QUOTE]
I think those 19 wins come from 2009 LBJ being better than 1989 MJ.
Keeping defenders moving and engaged with their man-assignment does the same thing that spacing the floor with 3 point shooters does, it keeps them honest and unable to help against the ballhandler. Just because they're closer to the paint doesn't mean they'll be able to help against the ball-handler.
and adjusting for pace, Bron's statline is just as good as MJ's.....and statlines don't matter in this case. LeBron literally made Mo Williams an all-star. He's renowned for making his teammate's better. 80's Jordan was considered a selfish chucker.
.....and you posted a .gif where David Lee was standing in the paint for 5 seconds and also would have been in violation of illegal D, and Mo Speights (who was also in the paint longer than 3 seconds) couldn't help because he had to keep TT off the boards (remember, he was killing everyone on the O-boards).
quit trying to make your point using LeBron gifs. Look at the paint during Derrick Rose's MVP season. Look at the paint last season for Westbrook. Look at the paint for John Wall the last few years. LeBron's squads for the past few years have had a ton of shooters, and double teams on Bron have to come late because of his passing ability.
:facepalm
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
I think those 19 wins come from 2009 LBJ being better than 1989 MJ.
[/quote]
^^^^ TRANSLATION:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [I]"No Mas... I can't think of any reasons why Lebron's 28/8/7/49 achieved 19 more wins than MJ's 33/8/8/54, other than the obvious that he faced worse competition and had a superior supporting cast - but I can't admit that, so I'll chalk up all 19 wins to Lebron being better than the GOAT... :hammerhead: [/I]
Anytime I get someone to say something absurd like that, it lets me know my argument is right.. I'm not sure why you decided to respond - if my choices in an argument were to either admit I'm wrong, or say some dumb shit like "[I]Kobe is so much better than Jordan, that his inferior stats are worth 19 more games[/I]"... I'd just admit I was wrong or stop replying rather than say some dumb shit like that.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
Just because they're closer to the paint doesn't mean they'll be able to help against the ball-handler.
[/QUOTE]
Yes it does.. :banana:.. Players who are closer to the paint, will be able to help quicker IN the paint.
And they're not just closer to the paint - they're already in the paint and waiting there "[I]with no time restriction[/I]".. This allows much more freedom than today's "[I]armslength[/I]" and "[I]2.9 second[/I]" restrictions.
[QUOTE=ralph_e_il]
LeBron literally made Mo Williams an all-star. He's renowned for making his teammate's better. 80's Jordan was considered a selfish chucker.
[/QUOTE]
Pippen's stats increased by leaps and bounds alongside MJ, while Mo Williams' stats got worse alongside Lebron.. So if Lebron *made* Mo Williams an all-star, then MJ literally created Pippen from dust into a HOF..
The reality is that Lebron has a reputation for making players WORSE - see Wade, Bosh and Love for examples A, B, and C... Whereas MJ made all the Bulls better - not one of them had their stats crater next to MJ like Lebron did with Bosh, Love and Wade.
MJ also turned a lot of nobodies that no one would ever know into recognizable players - i.e. Grant, Kerr, Paxson.. Let's face it, without MJ, we've never heard of Kerr and the Warriors aren't champs right now - Kerr had been cut from Orlando before joining the Bulls - MJ turned him into a [I]somebody[/I]... Talk to me when Lebron makes a guy's career like that.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif[/IMG]
....and you posted a .gif where David Lee was standing in the paint for 5 seconds and also would have been in violation of illegal D,
[/QUOTE]
Not at all - in the gif you reference, David Lee is clearly tippy-toeing with his foot and staying out of the lane - he's standing exactly where a previous era defender would stand.
And actually, look at Isiah above - his man is considered to be on the weakside, which makes Isiah a weakside defender - weakside and strongside defenders whose man was above the tip of the circle extended were allowed to dip below the FT line extended ("upper defensive area") and into the paint for 2.9 seconds, which is exactly what Lee is allowed to do:
[INDENT][I][COLOR="Blue"]2e[/COLOR]. "....When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be [color="blue"]no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds[/color]..."
"....When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be [COLOR="blue"]no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds[/COLOR]...."[/I][/indent]
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
and Mo Speights couldn't help because he had to keep TT off the boards (remember, he was killing everyone on the O-boards).
[/QUOTE]
That's not how basketball works - it's a benchable offense to hug your man in anticipation of a blockout.. It's the defender's responsibility to "find your man" everytime a shot goes up - this is taught to players from junior high.
Speights isn't going to blockout, he's making sure he remains within armslength.. This is the kind of stricter paint defense that would hinder defenders if teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, and defenders were forced to defend offensive players who now occupied the paint much more often... For today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.
The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side..
Today's rules for paint defense are much more restrictive on defenders than prior eras, while today's rules for defense outside the paint are less restrictive, at least strategically (but still not physically because of hand-check ban and bans on other physicality)..
.
[QUOTE=3ball]^^^^ TRANSLATION:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [I]"No Mas... I can't think of any reasons why Lebron's 28/8/7/49 achieved 19 more wins than MJ's 33/8/8/54, other than the obvious that he faced worse competition and had a superior supporting cast - but I can't admit that, so I'll chalk up all 19 wins to Lebron being better than the GOAT... :hammerhead: [/I]
Anytime I get someone to say something absurd like that, it lets me know my argument is right.. I'm not sure why you decided to respond - if my choices in an argument were to either admit I'm wrong, or say some dumb shit like "[I]Kobe is so much better than Jordan, that his inferior stats are worth 19 more games[/I]"... I'd just admit I was wrong or stop replying rather than say some dumb shit like that.
Yes it does.. :banana:.. Players who are closer to the paint, will be able to help quicker IN the paint.
And they're not just closer to the paint - they're already in the paint and waiting there "[I]with no time restriction[/I]".. This allows much more freedom than today's "[I]armslength[/I]" and "[I]2.9 second[/I]" restrictions.
Pippen's stats increased by leaps and bounds alongside MJ, while Mo Williams' stats got worse alongside Lebron.. So if Lebron *made* Mo Williams an all-star, then MJ literally created Pippen from dust into a HOF..
The reality is that Lebron has a reputation for making players WORSE - see Wade, Bosh and Love for examples A, B, and C... Whereas MJ made all the Bulls better - not one of them had their stats crater next to MJ like Lebron did with Bosh, Love and Wade.
MJ also turned a lot of nobodies that no one would ever know into recognizable players - i.e. Grant, Kerr, Paxson.. Let's face it, without MJ, we've never heard of Kerr and the Warriors aren't champs right now - Kerr had been cut from Orlando before joining the Bulls - MJ turned him into a [I]somebody[/I]... Talk to me when Lebron makes a guy's career like that.
Not at all - in the gif you reference, David Lee is clearly tippy-toeing with his foot and staying out of the lane - he's standing exactly where a previous era defender would stand.
And actually, look at Isiah above - his man is considered to be on the weakside, which makes Isiah a weakside defender - weakside and strongside defenders whose man was above the tip of the circle extended were allowed to dip below the FT line extended ("upper defensive area") and into the paint for 2.9 seconds, which is exactly what Lee is allowed to do:
[INDENT][I][COLOR="Blue"]2e[/COLOR]. "....When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be [color="blue"]no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds[/color]..."
"....When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be [COLOR="blue"]no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds[/COLOR]...."[/I][/indent]
That's not how basketball works - it's a benchable offense to hug your man in anticipation of a blockout.. It's the defender's responsibility to "find your man" everytime a shot goes up - this is taught to players from junior high.
Speights isn't going to blockout, he's making sure he remains within armslength.. This is the kind of stricter paint defense that would hinder defenders if teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, and defenders were forced to defend offensive players who now occupied the paint much more often... For today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.
The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side..
Today's rules for paint defense are much more restrictive on defenders than prior eras, while today's rules for defense outside the paint are less restrictive, at least strategically (but still not physically because of hand-check ban and bans on other physicality)..
.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm Mo Williams has never been close to how good he was alongside Bron.
Statlines aren't everything. I guess you think Elgin Baylor is better than MJ right? 38 and 18 is 38 and 18....CONTEXT BE DAMNED!
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
Mo Williams was better alongside Bron.
[/quote]
Not at all - his efficiency was down, and his assists were down 33% alongside a ball-dominant, low-assisted SF like Lebron:
[I]Mo in 2008 w/out Lebron[/I]: 17.2/3.5/[B]6.3[/B] on 48%
[I]Mo in 2009 WITH Lebron[/I]: 17.6/3.4/[B]4.1[/B] on 46%
Also, regardless of Lebron's stats, Lebron-ball has been proven to make his TEAM ineffective against the better playoffs teams... But even though Lebron-ball dooms his team's capability against the best in the playoffs, his supporting cast is still blamed when the team loses.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
[B]I guess you think Elgin Baylor is better than MJ right?[/B] 38 and 18 is 38 and 18....
[/QUOTE]
Elgin might have been better than Jordan.. But there's no "might have" for Lebron - I put Elgin over Lebron FOR SURE.. Elgin was a skilled scorer, with soft touch and probably the goat mid-range game along with MJ and Bird.
Otoh, Lebron's lack of scoring versatility prevents him from performing as well as these guys against the better competition in the playoffs, Finals, and clutch.. This is proven by a comparison of these stats and Lebron's consistently non-threatening performance on the biggest stage.
By "non-threatening", I'm talking about how Lebron's 17 fga on 57% wasn't threatening in 2014 Finals... And when he tried to actually BE threatening by doubling his fga in 2015 Finals, his efficiency couldn't handle it, cratering to 39% (due to him sucking at the extra mid-range and isolations required of high volume shooters - [I]the things ELGIN was goat at[/I].....).
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
Statlines aren't everything.
[/QUOTE]
True, but Lebron's 35% fg in areas required of high volume shooters (mid-range, isolation) proves Lebron is *[I]simply not a good enough player[/I]*... He isn't capable of achieving sufficient efficiency to win a championship WHILE CARRYING A TEAM (shooting a high volume).
His lack of skill in critical areas required of high volume shooters is why his Finals efficiency [I]cratered[/I] from 57% in the low-volume 2014 (when 3-and-D was sufficient to get 17 fga), to 39% in high-volume 2015 (when mid-range and isolations were required)..
The most amazing thing is that 36 ppg on 39% is Lebron's CEILING in the Finals, since he had optimal conditions - he was never double-teamed and he enjoyed the most secluded isolations in the history of the game.
Btw, we know that Lebron would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
CONTEXT BE DAMNED!
[/QUOTE]
The proper context is that today's game allows defenders to "play halfway" outside the paint, and "[I]within armslength[/I]" inside the paint.
Defenders in previous eras weren't allowed to play halfway outside the paint as often as today's defender, but the coaches' lack of spacing allowed them to play halfway ALL THE TIME inside the paint (legal paint-camping anywhere inside the 16 x 19 foot paint) - defenders in previous eras had far more freedom in the paint.
Also, previous era defenders never had to be "[I]within armslength[/I]" of their defender anywhere on the floor - that language didn't exist in the rules, let alone apply to the most important area of the floor: the paint.
.
[QUOTE=3ball]Not at all - his efficiency was down, and his assists were down 33% alongside a ball-dominant, low-assisted SF like Lebron:
[I]Mo in 2008 w/out Lebron[/I]: 17.2/3.5/[B]6.3[/B] on 48%
[I]Mo in 2009 WITH Lebron[/I]: 17.6/3.4/[B]4.1[/B] on 46%
Also, regardless of Lebron's stats, Lebron-ball has been proven to make his TEAM ineffective against the better playoffs teams... But even though Lebron-ball dooms his team's capability against the best in the playoffs, his supporting cast is still blamed when the team loses.
Elgin might have been better than Jordan.. But there's no "might have" for Lebron - I put Elgin over Lebron FOR SURE.. Elgin was a skilled scorer, with soft touch and probably the goat mid-range game along with MJ and Bird.
Otoh, Lebron's lack of scoring versatility prevents him from performing as well as these guys against the better competition in the playoffs, Finals, and clutch.. This is proven by a comparison of these stats and Lebron's consistently non-threatening performance on the biggest stage.
By "non-threatening", I'm talking about how Lebron's 17 fga on 57% wasn't threatening in 2014 Finals... And when he tried to actually BE threatening by doubling his fga in 2015 Finals, his efficiency couldn't handle it, cratering to 39% (due to him sucking at the extra mid-range and isolations required of high volume shooters - [I]the things ELGIN was goat at[/I].....).
True, but Lebron's 35% fg in areas required of high volume shooters (mid-range, isolation) proves Lebron is *[I]simply not a good enough player[/I]*... He isn't capable of achieving sufficient efficiency to win a championship WHILE CARRYING A TEAM (shooting a high volume).
His lack of skill in critical areas required of high volume shooters is why his Finals efficiency [I]cratered[/I] from 57% in the low-volume 2014 (when 3-and-D was sufficient to get 17 fga), to 39% in high-volume 2015 (when mid-range and isolations were required)..
The most amazing thing is that 36 ppg on 39% is Lebron's CEILING in the Finals, since he had optimal conditions - he was never double-teamed and he enjoyed the most secluded isolations in the history of the game.
Btw, we know that Lebron would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
The proper context is that today's game allows defenders to "play halfway" outside the paint, and "[I]within armslength[/I]" inside the paint.
Defenders in previous eras weren't allowed to play halfway outside the paint as often as today's defender, but the coaches' lack of spacing allowed them to play halfway ALL THE TIME inside the paint (legal paint-camping anywhere inside the 16 x 19 foot paint) - defenders in previous eras had far more freedom in the paint.
Also, previous era defenders never had to be "[I]within armslength[/I]" of their defender anywhere on the floor - that language didn't exist in the rules, let alone apply to the most important area of the floor: the paint.
.[/QUOTE]
nope, Elgin had better stats than MJ, so he must have been better. I'm just using your own logic. MJ never had a season as good as Elgin. Sorry. Wilt is the goat. Tiny Archibald is better than MJ.
Mo Williams was chucking on a 26 win Bucks squad in '08. Shot 2 more 3's a game at a significantly higher percentage next to LeBron.
I don't get why you keep saying that LeBron's style is "ineffective" and he's not good enough for the playoffs. [B]He has almost exactly the same winning % in playoff games as MJ[/B]. He's gone to the finals 5 straight times. He took his team to the finals at an age when MJ hadn't left the first round. He finally got help as good as MJ and won twice. He might have won last year if his second and third best players weren't hurt. Charles Barkley would have a ring if he went up against MJ without Pippen and Grant.
We get it, LeBron is an inconsistent shooter. He's also the quickest NBA player EVER for his size, AND the best passer for his size. He's one of the GOAT finishers. Talk shit about his post game, but outside of the finals (missing his 2 best shooters and playing against the best defense) his post game is one of the most efficient in the league every season since he went to the Heat.
LeBron is a top-10 all time player already. I'd take MJ over him obviously. Your premise, however, that MJ is better than LeBron in every facet of the game is just FALSE. All this "tough era" nonsense as well. The game has evolved, defense is more free, shooting is better and offensive strategy is better today. Plus, all of MJ's best statistical seasons came in a RUN AND GUN NO DEFENSE ERA.
Luck and context are real. We know MJ won 6/6 titles. We get that he's the GOAT. A few situational changes, however, and maybe he doesn't even go to 6 finals. It takes a lot of help and luck for ANY player to win ONE final. No matter how good a player is, there are always a few other guys in the league that are comparable to them in impact.
Did you honestly just say that LeBron would do WORSE in the 80's? He's one of the greatest transition players ever.....and he would do WORSE IN THE PREMIER FASTBREAK ERA????? Where he's also be allowed to bully defenders way more often without worrying about offensive fouls? :facepalm Bron might have had a triple double season playing at 80's pace.
My hate for MJ grows. even tho I like him.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]:facepalm Mo Williams has never been close to how good he was alongside Bron.
Statlines aren't everything. I guess you think Elgin Baylor is better than MJ right? 38 and 18 is 38 and 18....CONTEXT BE DAMNED![/QUOTE]
mo avg 18ppg before join the cavs :banana:
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]nope, Elgin had better stats than MJ, so he must have been better. I'm just using your own logic. MJ never had a season as good as Elgin. Sorry. Wilt is the goat. Tiny Archibald is better than MJ.
Mo Williams was chucking on a 26 win Bucks squad in '08. Shot 2 more 3's a game at a significantly higher percentage next to LeBron.
I don't get why you keep saying that LeBron's style is "ineffective" and he's not good enough for the playoffs. [B]He has almost exactly the same winning % in playoff games as MJ[/B]. He's gone to the finals 5 straight times. He took his team to the finals at an age when MJ hadn't left the first round. He finally got help as good as MJ and won twice. He might have won last year if his second and third best players weren't hurt. Charles Barkley would have a ring if he went up against MJ without Pippen and Grant.
We get it, LeBron is an inconsistent shooter. He's also the quickest NBA player EVER for his size, AND the best passer for his size. He's one of the GOAT finishers. Talk shit about his post game, but outside of the finals (missing his 2 best shooters and playing against the best defense) his post game is one of the most efficient in the league every season since he went to the Heat.
LeBron is a top-10 all time player already. I'd take MJ over him obviously. Your premise, however, that MJ is better than LeBron in every facet of the game is just FALSE. All this "tough era" nonsense as well. The game has evolved, defense is more free, shooting is better and offensive strategy is better today. Plus, all of MJ's best statistical seasons came in a RUN AND GUN NO DEFENSE ERA.
Luck and context are real. We know MJ won 6/6 titles. We get that he's the GOAT. A few situational changes, however, and maybe he doesn't even go to 6 finals. It takes a lot of help and luck for ANY player to win ONE final. No matter how good a player is, there are always a few other guys in the league that are comparable to them in impact.
Did you honestly just say that LeBron would do WORSE in the 80's? He's one of the greatest transition players ever.....and he would do WORSE IN THE PREMIER FASTBREAK ERA????? Where he's also be allowed to bully defenders way more often without worrying about offensive fouls? :facepalm Bron might have had a triple double season playing at 80's pace.[/QUOTE]
He's one of the GOAT finishers because of denfensive 3 seconds rules
[QUOTE=Paul George 24]mo avg 18ppg before join the cavs :banana:[/QUOTE]
On the 26 win bucks who only had one other scorer.
200 guys in the league could do that right now.
[QUOTE=3ball]...if my choices in an argument were to either admit I'm wrong, or say some dumb shit like "[I]Kobe is so much better than Jordan, that his inferior stats are worth 19 more games[/I]"... I'd just admit I was wrong or stop replying rather than say some dumb shit like that.
.[/QUOTE]
I call BS on this.
You've never admitted you were wrong. You only stop replying. May as well leave out that first part.. "I'd just admit I was wrong or..." Just leave that out.
[QUOTE=Paul George 24]He's one of the GOAT finishers because of denfensive 3 seconds rules[/QUOTE]
No it's because he's an incredible finisher. His strength/explosion/coordination combo is unmatched.
gonna respond in a sec ralph
.
3ball,
Do you intentionally post misleading "facts", and just hope that no one counters them? Or do you actually believe that your misleading "facts" are, in fact, facts?
[QUOTE=kshutts1]3ball,
Do you intentionally post misleading "facts", and just hope that no one counters them? Or do you actually believe that your misleading "facts" are, in fact, facts?[/QUOTE]
get specific, or stfu with your passive-aggressive, beta ass...
say what you mean - don't beat around the bush like a ***
[QUOTE=kshutts1]3ball,
Do you intentionally post misleading "facts", and just hope that no one counters them? Or do you actually believe that your misleading "facts" are, in fact, facts?[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]
:oldlol:
[/QUOTE]
[B]again, get specific, or stfu.. I post facts.... for example, you guys post poppycock, ignorant opinion by claiming MJ's era was run-and-gun era, so I respond with facts:[/B]
[I]Pace was slower and ppg was less during MJ's 2nd three-peat - all three seasons had slower league-wide pace and PPG.
And before MJ's 2nd three-peat, the Bulls were always the slowest paced team in the league - from MJ's rookie year and throughout his entire career, the Bulls' pace ranged from 92-97, which is the same as this season's 94 pace.
Furthermore the pace always slows down in the playoffs - pace in the PLAYOFFS from the 80's was the same pace as today.. i.e. the pace in 1988 playoffs was 94.0, and 87.4 in 1996, which are both lower than the 94.4 playoff pace in 2015:
(1988): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(1996): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(2015): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
[/I]
[I]Again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.[/I]
.
[quote=ralph_i_el]
Lebron took his team to the finals at an age when MJ hadn't left the first round.
[/QUOTE]
In 2007, the 22-year old Lebron didn't have to face a championship team and #1 defense until the Finals, due to weak competition in the Eastern Conference.. Obviously, if he had faced the Spurs in the 1st round, he would've been swept in the first round instead of the Finals..
Otoh, the 22-year-old MJ had to face a championship team and #1 defense in the FIRST ROUND (1986 Celtics), due to superior competition in the Eastern Conference.. Here are both players' performance against championship teams and #1 defenses at 22 years old:
[I]Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics[/I]: 44/6/6 on 51%
[I]Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs[/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 22/7/6 on 35%
[quote=ralph_i_el]
He finally got help as good as MJ and won twice.
[/QUOTE]
Lebron had much better help than MJ - MJ's 3rd option was a 1-time allstar (Grant), while Lebron's 3rd option was a 10-time all-star (Bosh).. No one ever had a 10-time all-star as their 3rd option, except Lebron.
Even though Lebron-ball cratered his stats, Bosh averaged 17/7 in 4 years alongside Lebron (including value-add versatility, such as 40% floor-spreading from 3-point range) - this is far superior to Grant's rudimentary 11/8 alongside MJ.. Of course, Ray Allen > BJ armstrong... Chalmers > Paxson.. and on down the line.
[quote=ralph_i_el]
[B]I don't get why you keep saying that LeBron's style is "ineffective" and he's not good enough for the playoffs.. He might have won last year if his second and third best players weren't hurt. Charles Barkley would have a ring if he went up against MJ without Pippen and Grant.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Navy"]You don't get it - the 2015 Finals proved that Lebron is not capable of achieving a decent FG% at high shooting volume - his inability to maintain his efficiency at high volume means he isn't capable of winning a championship *[I]while carrying his team/undertaking high shot volume[/I]*... The reason he can't maintain his efficiency at high volume is because he sucks in the areas required of high volume shooters - mid-range and isolations.. These are all facts.
Otoh, MJ's elite mid-range and isolation ability allowed him to maintain his efficiency at higher shot volume - accordingy, he was SUCCESSFUL winning a championship while carrying his team at high shooting volume.. In the 1993 Finals, MJ averaged 41/9/6 on 52%, despite getting double-teamed incessantly.. Whereas Lebron couldn't maintain his fg% despite not getting double-teamed and having the most secluded isolations in the history of the game - he was just THAT bad in the areas required of high volume shooters (mid-range, isolation).
[/COLOR]
[quote=ralph_i_el]
[SIZE="3"][B]We get it[/B][/SIZE] - Lebron is an inconsistent shooter
[/QUOTE]
What do you mean "[I]we get it[/I]"????... Lebron being a bad shooter is one of the biggest factors why he isn't as good as MJ and others!!!!!... Saying "[I]we get it[/I]" won't change that or make anyone forget/gloss-over it.. It will be brought up EVERY time.. Even Steve Kerr brings it up:
[url]https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xat1/v/t1.0-9/p720x720/11403499_956469487706651_6380464349761851951_n.jpg?oh=ac0c2ae4e647a9e1e35ac4193d34c692&oe=56266B66&__gda__=1445800218_a1bdd0a2aedd8b5e945ae701c6109d90[/url]
[quote=ralph_i_el]
Lebron's post game is one of the most efficient in the league every season since he went to the Heat.
[/QUOTE]
This is a lie - you're forgetting that we have stats for every play type - the stats prove Lebron is below-average at post-ups... The NBA's player-tracking data shows Lebron only posts up on 8.6% of possessions, which is 117th in the league... His PPP and fg% on the post rank 150th, and 135th respectively (Lebron isn't even on the first page of post efficiency leaders.. he's on the third page):
[url]http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&sort=PPP[/url]
[quote=ralph_i_el]
MJ is better than LeBron in every facet of the game is just FALSE.
[/QUOTE]
The only area where MJ is not better is defensive rebounds.. MJ is better in every other category.
Just look at passing - in the playoffs, Lebron averages less than 1 assist more per game than MJ, even though the NBA's player-tracking stats show he dominates the ball more than starting PG's... MJ is the superior passer when playing off-ball and he's been proven the better passer as the primary ballhandler too:
The one time MJ got to dominate the ball like a PG (for 24 games at the end of 1989 season), his 30/9/11 averages and stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games is better than anything Lebron has done in his entire CAREER as a ball-dominator..
Lebron did have a 12 game stretch in 2010, where he was the actual, listed PG - his ball-domination went through the roof, more than his standard, and he averaged 30/7/11 - but it was only for 12 games and it was against teams that average 34 wins (lottery teams), while MJ's 24 game stretch came against teams averaging 45 wins (playoff teams).
[quote=ralph_i_el]
The game has evolved, [SIZE="3"][B]defense is more free[/B][/SIZE], shooting is better and offensive strategy is better today.
[/QUOTE]
The bolded above is where you're wrong - today's defenders are more restricted INSIDE the paint - they must stand "[I]within armslength[/I]" to remain in the paint, while previous eras defenders could remain in the paint "[I]with no time restriction[/I]".
However, I agree that today's defenders have more freedom OUTSIDE the paint, but the freedom gap isn't as big as inside the paint - defenders in previous eras didn't have to stand "[I]within armslength[/I]" of their man ANYWHERE on the floor, let alone in the most important area on the floor (the paint).
[quote=ralph_i_el]
Plus, all of MJ's best statistical seasons came in a RUN AND GUN NO DEFENSE ERA.
[/QUOTE]
Pace was slower and ppg was less during all three seasons of MJ's 2nd three-peat... So you're wrong for the 80th time itt.
And before MJ's 2nd three-peat, the Bulls were always the slowest paced team in the league - from MJ's rookie year and throughout his entire career, the Bulls' pace ranged from 89 to 99, which averages to the same as this season's 94 pace.
[quote=ralph_i_el]
Did you honestly just say that LeBron's great transition game would do WORSE in the faster paced 80's?
[/QUOTE]
Lebron would still suck in the halfcourt, which is what matters in the playoffs... The pace in the playoffs from the 80's was the same pace as today.. i.e. the pace in 1988 playoffs was 94.0, and it was 87.4 in 1996, which are both lower than the 94.4 playoff pace in 2015:
(1988): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(1996): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(2015): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
Again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
[quote=ralph_i_el]
He has almost exactly the same winning % in playoff games as MJ.. He's gone to the finals 5 straight times..
[/QUOTE]
Exactly - Lebron's playoff record IS WORSE, despite facing competition that is verifiably FAR worse:
[IMG]http://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg[/IMG]
But most importantly, it's amazing that people can brag about Lebron's Finals appearances with a straight face, when everyone is fully aware that he needed to team-hop for 5/6 of his Finals appearances..
And the one time he made the Finals without team-hopping, he only had to beat a 1 seed that won 53 games - that's the worst record of any 1 seed EVER.. Not surprisingly, Lebron only needed to average 25 ppg on 44.8% fg to beat the WOAT #1 seed ever - 25 ppg on 44.8% would be the worst playoffs series of MJ's entire career.
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]
nope, Elgin had better stats than MJ, so he must have been better.
[/quote]
MJ's stats are better than Elgin's when you adjust for pace, while Lebron's are not..
But more importantly, Lebron plays much worse against the best competition because he's only elite as the ballhandler - this singular focus fares worse against the best teams than MJ and Elgin's elite ability in ALL scoring areas.. A comparison of playoff and Finals stats proves that Lebron performs significantly worse against the better competition.
Furthermore, Lebron's ball-dominance hasn't just hurt his OWN stats against the better teams, but it's proven to make his TEAM ineffective against the better playoffs teams... However, even though Lebron-ball dooms his team's capability against the best teams in the playoffs, his supporting cast is still blamed when the team loses.
[QUOTE=3ball][B]again, get specific, or stfu.. I post facts.... for example, you guys post poppycock, ignorant opinion by claiming MJ's era was run-and-gun era, so I respond with facts:[/B]
[I]Pace was slower and ppg was less during MJ's 2nd three-peat - all three seasons had slower league-wide pace and PPG.
And before MJ's 2nd three-peat, the Bulls were always the slowest paced team in the league - from MJ's rookie year and throughout his entire career, the Bulls' pace ranged from 92-97, which is the same as this season's 94 pace.
Furthermore the pace always slows down in the playoffs - pace in the PLAYOFFS from the 80's was the same pace as today.. i.e. the pace in 1988 playoffs was 94.0, and 87.4 in 1996, which are both lower than the 94.4 playoff pace in 2015:
(1988): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(1996): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(2015): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
[/I]
[I]Again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.[/I]
.[/QUOTE]
MJ played in 2 eras smart guy.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]
MJ played in 2 eras smart guy.
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Navy"]His stats were GOAT regardless of era.. Also, the Bulls played slow, so their pace was the same as today's pace:[/COLOR]
[U]BULLS' PACE:[/U]
1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]
MJ played in two eras
[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter - pace always slows down in the playoffs.. The pace in the 80's playoffs was often SLOWER than today's era.. For example, pace was 94.0 and 94.4 in 1988 and 1989 playoffs, respectively, which is the same or lower than the 94.4 pace in 2015 playoffs:
(1988): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(198): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1989.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(2015): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
In 1996, the pace was 87.4, which is FAR lower than today's 94.4:
(1996): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
And again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "[I]no 3-pointer[/I]" 80's - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
[QUOTE=3ball][COLOR="Navy"]His stats were GOAT regardless of era.. Also, the Bulls played slow, so their pace was the same as today's pace:[/COLOR]
[U]BULLS' PACE:[/U]
1985:. 99.4.... 6% faster than today's 93.8 pace
1986:. 99.7.... 6%
1987:. 95.8.... 2%
1988:. 95.5.... 2%
1989:. 97.0.... 4%
1990:. 96.7.... 4%
1991:. 95.6.... 2%
1992:. 95.4.... 2%
1993:. 92.5.... (1%) slower than today's 93.8 pace
1995:. 92.0.... (2%)
1996:. 91.1.... (3%)
1997:. 90.0.... (4%)
1998:. 89.0.... (5%)
Doesn't matter - pace always slows down in the playoffs.. The pace in the 80's playoffs was often SLOWER than today's era.. For example, pace was 94.0 and 94.4 in 1988 and 1989 playoffs, respectively, which is the same or lower than the 94.4 pace in 2015 playoffs:
(1988): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(198): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1989.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(2015): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
In 1996, the pace was 87.4, which is FAR lower than today's 94.4:
(1996): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
And again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "[I]no 3-pointer[/I]" 80's - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.
.[/QUOTE]
Why you always gotta be so disingenuous?
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]Why you always gotta be so disingenuous?[/QUOTE]
If you can't be specific, than you're the disingenuous one.
.