If today's defenders have more "freedom", then league-wide ORtg should be lower

[QUOTE=tpols]when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>[/QUOTE]

I understand Shaq won his titles with all time great guards and it was a bit of hyperbole saying he'd contend for a title with scrubs, but my point is that peak Shaq is theoretically the best player in history to build around. He was the ultimate mismatch and completely disruptive on both ends. Yes he had some shortcomings as you mentioned, but it's foolish to dismiss his ability as simply being an enormous man. He was incredibly skilled, quick, agile, and explosive. He ran the floor well and had a terrific basketball IQ. He wasn't the lumbering oaf that your king kong analogy makes him out to be. The game has never seen a player with his combination of abilities.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]While just minutes previous....



Anybody else see a glaring problem?[/QUOTE]
wow bro, ur dumber than i ever realized.
.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

pippen take over the team i.e. defending.

[/QUOTE]
In the 1991 Finals, MJ guarded Magic Johnson for 14 out of 20 quarters (70%), to Pippen's 6 of 20 quarters (30%).

Specifically, Pippen guarded Magic for 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5... Here are all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddik5aZ02uA[/url]
Game 2: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMTY0xJSwRY[/url]
Game 3: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzLssE0Vcm4[/url]
Game 4: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFcMrcXfCcU[/url]
Game 5: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9B9654H0Cc[/url]


It was MJ's job to guard the opponent's starting PG or SG, depending on who was better.. He locked down PG's like [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s&list=PLl0ny9_3DLnFmdGrXIYboWxY85qDJEjUY&index=14]Tim Hardaway[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q53GLDrhMkY]Isiah Thomas[/url], John Stockton, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw&list=PLl0ny9_3DLnFmdGrXIYboWxY85qDJEjUY&index=13]Kevin Johnson[/url], [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg]Gary Payton[/url], Rod Strickland - basically every PG in the league.

Otoh, Pippen only guarded SF's.. He never guarded any other position other than rare one-off's (like when he guarded the slowest PG of all time, Mark Jackson, lol).
.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]While just minutes previous....



Anybody else see a glaring problem?[/QUOTE]
Do you know the meaning of offsetting, or do you just post to prove how dumb you are

Today's spacing offsets current defensive tactics... You've read my posts for a while now, so you should know that.. but ur dumb, so i expect nothing less
.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

pippen take over the team e.g. in playmaking,

[/QUOTE]
[B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact
[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact
[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]



i will post this again, seing as how you keep re-posting the same thing i already rebutted



[QUOTE=3ball]So what was Pippen's 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals?

Or his 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals?

The bias against MJ by current fans is hilarioius... :oldlol: [/quote]


GOAT perimeter defense and elite playmaking vs someone who took plays off on defense and chucked.

big difference.


scottie's intangibles = goat like,


hence jordan's 1-9 record in the postseason without him.


[quote][B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%[/quote]


from 1991-1998 (including 1995), during the bulls dynasty reign,

pippen = more assists per game during 5/7 of their playoff runs.


[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1995.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1997.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1998.html[/url]


its stupid to go off percentages if we're talking about a game-to-game basis. game-to-game, scottie had more playmaking IMPACT


along with those numbers, from 1991-1998, pippen also had better +/- metrics on the defensive end via rapm - the highest of all perimeter players.


[url]http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com[/url]

[QUOTE=3ball]Do you know the meaning of offsetting, or do you just post to prove how dumb you are

Today's spacing offsets current defensive tactics... You've read my posts for a while now, so you should know that.. but ur dumb, so i expect nothing less
.[/QUOTE]
Don't get mad bro, get your shit straight. You're so delusional you don't even realize when you provide opposing views anymore.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]2000-2005 = goat era of defense.


lowest drtg & pace combination in history BUT still had modern players, skills and rules.


the combination of zone defense & hanchecking was proven to be too much for most, but guys like shaq remained at the top.


this is why shaq is MDE. dominated in the 90s against goat centers and so-so defense. dominated in the 2000s with defense being GOAT. and then dominated post 2005, after his prime, from 2006 & 2007 (same numbers as 2010-2014 duncan - who many still consider dominant).[/QUOTE]
This literally implies that Wade >>> LeBron, when they're healthy. Dude absolutely destroyed the Pistons in the ECF until he got hurt. How did Shaq respond? The team lost by 25 points. Wade averaged 30/6/5 over the first 4 games (the ones he was healthy in) and this includes the 16 point stinker (first game of the series). Over the series, the '05 Pistons held Wade to 26/5/4 (2 injured games). The same team held LeBron to 27/9/6 the next season. A healthy LeBron, who averaged 31 PPG in the RS.

You really should stop posting, you pathetic LeBron stan.

[QUOTE=aj1987]This literally implies that Wade >>> LeBron, when they're healthy. Dude absolutely destroyed the Pistons in the ECF until he got hurt. How did Shaq respond? The team lost by 25 points. Wade averaged 30/6/5 over the first 4 games (the ones he was healthy in) and this includes the 16 point stinker (first game of the series). Over the series, the '05 Pistons held Wade to 26/5/4 (2 injured games). The same team held LeBron to 27/9/6 the next season. A healthy LeBron, who averaged 31 PPG in the RS.

You really should stop posting, you pathetic LeBron stan.[/QUOTE]


one series makes wade > lebron?


great logic, sanjay. pickup the chicken curry off my floor while you're at it.

[QUOTE=tpols]when has shaq ever carried scrubs ?


Before he got phil and kobe shaq had a stable of all star caliber guards on his teams at all times.. never won anything. He didn't win a ring until he had a top 10 GOAT and a top 15-20 GOAT (who had top 10 GOAT talent but no longevity to attain top 10 career) on his teams.


shaqs impact has to be the most overrated ever.. he could dominate individually but lacked interest/leadership/clutch ability and had glaring, exploitable weaknesses.. people are just in awe of his size and power like hes a king kong exhibit or something.. as far as effectiveness leading to winning, MJ >>>[/QUOTE]
Same can be said for Kobe. When has Kobe ever carried teams to a championship without the best FC in the league? Not to mention the GOAT coach. Shaq carried Kobe to a ring in '00. That's not even debatable. Not to mention Shaq in '01, going up against the DPOY and CARRYING Kobe AGAIN to a title. 2002 was just a trifecta. IMO, Those teams were #1 Shaq, #2 Kobe, and role players.

31/15/3/3 in '00
29/13/4/3 in '01
29/13/3/3 in '02

Lets also not forget the 35/15/3/3 he dropped over the 3 Finals.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]one series makes wade > lebron?


great logic, sanjay. pickup the chicken curry off my floor while you're at it.[/QUOTE]
A HEALTHY Wade and LeBron. According to your logic, you ****ing idiot. Wade had the best series amongst those two in the "GOAT era of defense". Again, that's according to you. Wade actually had the better first 2 seasons between them. Heck, LeBron didn't even make the PO's. Wade was hitting game winners in his rookie ****ing year. He had TWO in his rookie year, as a matter of FACT.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

Don't get mad bro, get your shit straight. You're so delusional you don't even realize when you provide opposing views anymore.

[/QUOTE]
What exactly is my opposing view?

Spacing makes it easier for today's player - that doesn't mean ORtg has to increase just based on that - spacing isn't the ONLY factor affecting ORtg, dumbass..

C'mon bud... You're a dumbass that got horrible grades in school... Admit it already

i don't base my player rankings off one series.

only a clueless ape like yourself would do that.

lol

[QUOTE=3ball]

[B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="2"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact
[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=mehyaM24]


[B][SIZE="3"]you keep re-posting the same thing i already rebutted
[/SIZE][/B]

[/quote]
You didn't rebut anything...

MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates' shots... Period... That's it... There IS nothing to rebut because it's a fact.

MJ not only assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots, but he did so while leading the league in scoring (50-70% more scoring than Pippen).

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]i don't base my player rankings off one series.

only a clueless ape like yourself would do that.

lol[/QUOTE]
tl;dr, you can't argue ANY of my points. :roll:

[COLOR="Black"]F[/COLOR]ucking moron. You literally seem like the guy who used to clean my car. He tried to talk shit, but when I bring up facts, he used to call me a racist. Dude was a ****ing white guy, BTW.:roll: :roll:

Calling me Sanjay? Meh, that's not even the post popular Indian name. Know your shit before you TRY to diss someone, you little [COLOR="black"]f[/COLOR]uck.

[QUOTE=aj1987]

tl;dr, you can't argue ANY of my points. :roll:

[COLOR="Black"]

F[/COLOR]ucking moron. You literally seem like the guy who used to clean my car. He tried to talk shit, but when I bring up facts, he used to call me a racist. Dude was a ****ing white guy, BTW.:roll: :roll:

Calling me Sanjay? Meh, that's not even the post popular Indian name. Know your shit before you TRY to diss someone, you little [COLOR="black"]f[/COLOR]uck.

[/QUOTE]
[B]Ether.

And I'll add some [COLOR="Red"]thread cliffs[/COLOR]:[/B]

[I][INDENT]While today's defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint (zone), they're hog-tied inside the paint - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offsets the zones allowed outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired) - stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across different eras.[/INDENT][/I]

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Ether.

And I'll add some [COLOR="Red"]thread cliffs[/COLOR]:[/B]

[I][INDENT]While today's defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint (zone), they're hog-tied inside the paint - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offsets the zones allowed outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired) - stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across different eras.[/INDENT][/I][/QUOTE]
So you just made a big ass circle to return to what? Nothing. It was harder to score in the 90's yet at the same time ortg proves it was equally difficult? That's what happens when you try and get too cute with your points bro. You actually did more here to destroy a previous argument of your own than prove anything. Congrats.:applause:

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

So you just made a big ass circle to return to what? Nothing. [B][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"]It was harder to score in the 90's[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] yet at the same time ortg proves it was equally difficult?

[/QUOTE]

[B]You're blatantly changing what I said - I said stable ORtg over the years proves it's [U]EQUALLY HARD[/U] to score across the eras:
[/B]

[QUOTE=3ball]

While today's defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint (zone), they're hog-tied inside the paint - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offsets the zones allowed outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired) - stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains [B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"]equally hard[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B] to score across different eras.

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=3ball][B]You're blatantly changing what I said - I said stable ORtg over the years proves it's [U]EQUALLY HARD[/U] to score across the eras:
[/B][/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
See what I mean, when you spew so much nonsense you can't keep up with your own stuff. You said in this thread exactly what I quoted.

[QUOTE]The extra ground today's defenders must cover makes it EASIER for the offensive player, obviously[/QUOTE]

Along with what seems like 100 threads saying the same.....

[B]con

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

The extra ground today's defenders must cover (spacing) makes it EASIER for the offensive player, obviously

[/QUOTE]
My statement above (that spacing makes it easier for today's player) doesn't contradict the fact that ORtg has been stable over the years.

Obviously, spacing is not the only factor affecting ORtg - the fact that you think it's the only factor affecting ORtg proves you're incompetent.. :confusedshrug:

It can't be any clearer than that (that you're incompetent)

[QUOTE=3ball]My statement above (that spacing makes it easier for today's player) doesn't contradict the fact that ORtg has been stable over the years.

Obviously, spacing is not the only factor affecting ORtg - the fact that you think it's the only factor affecting ORtg proves you're a dumbass.. :confusedshrug:

It can't be any clearer than that (that you're a dumbass)
.[/QUOTE]
You still can't see the conflict of saying something makes it easier immediately after saying all is equal. One of us is in fact a dumbass, I think you're pointing at the wrong guy.:rockon:

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

You still can't see the conflict of saying something makes it easier immediately after saying all is equal.

[/QUOTE]
You can't understand how spacing makes it easier for players, but other things make it harder, thus keeping ORtg stable?

Again, just admit that you got horrible grades and didn't finish high school.

[QUOTE=3ball]You can't understand how spacing makes it easier for players, but other things make it harder, thus keeping ORtg stable?

Again, just admit that you got horrible grades and didn't finish high school.[/QUOTE]
Nah I was pretty good in school, but whatever helps you cope my man. Keep contradicting your own statements thays what smart guys do right?:rockon:

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

Nah I was pretty good in school, but whatever helps you cope my man. Keep contradicting your own statements thays what smart guys do right?

[/QUOTE]
It's not a contradiction to say that today's spacing makes it easier for today's players, while also saying that ORtg remains stable... Obviously, spacing is not the only factor affecting ORtg.

Now, back to the [COLOR="Red"]thread cliffs[/COLOR]:

[I][INDENT]While today's defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint (zone), they're hog-tied inside the paint - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offsets the zones allowed outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired) - stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across different eras.[/INDENT][/I]
.

still no rebuttal on this itt:


[QUOTE]


GOAT perimeter defense and elite playmaking vs someone who took plays off on defense and chucked.

big difference.


scottie's intangibles = goat like,


hence jordan's 1-9 record in the postseason without him.


from 1991-1998 (including 1995), during the bulls dynasty reign,

pippen = more assists per game during 5/7 of their playoff runs.


[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1995.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1997.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1998.html[/url]


its stupid to go off percentages if we're talking about a game-to-game basis. game-to-game, scottie had more playmaking IMPACT


along with those numbers, from 1991-1998, pippen also had better +/- metrics on the defensive end via rapm - the highest of all perimeter players.


[url]http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com[/url][/quote]

:confusedshrug:

.
[B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact
[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE]
.

[QUOTE=3ball]


[B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact
[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=mehyaM24]

still no rebuttal on this itt:


[B][SIZE="3"]its stupid to go off assist percentages[/SIZE][/B] if we're talking about a game-to-game basis. game-to-game, scottie had more playmaking IMPACT


[/QUOTE]
There's no need to respond to this because it's wrong - everyone knows assist percentage is the most relevant stat relating to assists.

As the previous post shows, MJ's assist percentage was FAR higher than Pippen's so he assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots... Period.

[I]There's no disputing that MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots than Pippen... :confusedshrug: ... So you have no point.[/I]

assist percentage = assists per 100 possessions.

individual players don't have the ball in their hands enough for this to be relevant.


apg = on a per game basis, game-to-game. this means scottie pippen, from game-to-game, was more of an impact passer than jordan.


like i said - you have no rebuttal.

don't bother posting those numbers again. i will just re-post my ether, shredding them again.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]assist percentage = assists per 100 possessions.

individual players don't have the ball in their hands enough for this to be relevant.


apg = on a per game basis, game-to-game. this means scottie pippen, from game-to-game, was more of an impact passer than jordan.


like i said - you have no rebuttal.

don't bother posting those numbers again. i will just re-post my ether, shredding them again.[/QUOTE]
Mj led them in asts most years in playoffs. 88,89,90,91, and 93. So what exactly are you smoking?

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

apg = on a per game basis, game-to-game. this means scottie pippen, from game-to-game, was more of an impact passer than jordan.

[/QUOTE]
Wow, you're even dumber than sdot_thadon... ****ing amazing.

Assist % does NOT mean assist per 100... Assist % is the percentage of teammates' shots that MJ assisted on.

MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates' shots.. Anyone remotely knowledgeable knows that assist % is the most relevant stat.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Mj led them in asts most years in playoffs. 88,89,90,91, and 93. So what exactly are you smoking?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, from 1989-1993 Jordan averaged 7 apg in the playoffs. Pretty insane considering he was also scoring 34 ppg over that same playoff stretch! It wasn't until the second 3-peat that Pippen took on more of a primary playmaking role. By that time Jordan was nearing his mid 30's so it made sense for Pippen to take over those duties. The original point-forward.

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]

Yeah, from 1989-1993 Jordan averaged 7 apg in the playoffs. Pretty insane considering he was also scoring 34 ppg over that same playoff stretch!

It wasn't until the second 3-peat that Pippen took on more of a primary playmaking role. [B]By that time Jordan was nearing his mid 30's so it made sense for Pippen to take over those duties[/B]. The original point-forward.

[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Blue"]You're too young to have seen the 2nd three-peat, and now you're making stuff up after the fact.[/COLOR]


[B]Playoff Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]

[QUOTE=3ball]Again, this is FACTUALLY incorrect, yet another lie by you guys - in 1997, teams attempted 16.8 threes per game, at 36.0%.

That's more than the 16.0 threes on 35.8% in 2007, yet ORtg was the same in 2007 as it was in 1997 (106.5 to 106.7).

It was the same thing in 2008 and 2009 - teams also attempted approximately the same number of threes at the same percentage as 1997, yet ORtg was higher than 1997.

So that destroys your ignorant theory that was based on nothing - it's better to pay attention to the FACTS, rather than make up your own bullshit.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm 1997 short line you dumb ******

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

:facepalm 1997 short line you dumb ******

[/QUOTE]
By saying this, all you're proving is that you have no idea what we're arguing - the distance of the line has no relevance to the point being made.

Remember what the argument is - the argument is that stable ORtg over the years proves that it's equally hard to score in different eras... [COLOR="blue"]Opponents of this view say that defense IS better today, but today's 3-point shooting offsets the superior defense, which causes today's ORtg to remain the same as previous eras[/COLOR].. This is proven false because in 1997, teams took the same amount of 3-pointers at the same percentage as teams from today's era (2005-2011), yet ORtg was still the same back then (less actually).

So the 3-pointer argument holds no water and the original point remains - league-wide ORtg has remained stable for the last 30 years, which proves that it remains equally-hard to score across the eras.

This thread proves all the theories about defense that you new fans have created to downgrade previous era players is complete BS.

[QUOTE=3ball][COLOR="Blue"]You're too young to have seen the 2nd three-peat, and now you're making stuff up after the fact.[/COLOR]


[B]Playoff Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url][/QUOTE]

So let me get this straight. I'm not too young to have seen the first 3-peat (because I praised Jordan), but I'm too young to have seen the second 3-peat because I stated a fact that somehow you disagree with? Jordan himself would tell you that Pippen had more playmaking responsibilities in the second 3-peat. Are you familiar with the concept of age? A player simply cannot do the same things in their mid 30's that they were able to do in their 20's, hence the reason second 3-peat Jordan shared and at times deferred playmaking duties.

You do realize Jordan was human right? You talk about him like he was some kind of deity.

From what I've come to realize is that... for all intents and purposes, the league has changed stylistically, but the outputs haven't changed much.

Today the game is more team orientated than ever. For an individual player to shine, you need to have multiple scoring options on the floor. In the past, you could get away with 2-3 players who weren't genuine offensive threats because of the ISO ball from the illegal defense rules.

The talent hasn't suddenly dropped. Top players don't score as much because it doesn't equate to success like it used to. Today you can go out and score 30 a game, but it will most likely be to the detriment of their team.

People like to use the 2006 scoring leader increase as an example. How many of those scoring leaders had much success playing that way? It was only til Kobe played more team orientated, that he started succeeding again.

[QUOTE=3ball]By saying this, all you're proving is that you have no idea what we're arguing - the distance of the line has no relevance to the point being made.

Remember what the argument is - the argument is that stable ORtg over the years proves that it's equally hard to score in different eras... [COLOR="blue"]Opponents of this view say that defense IS better today, but today's 3-point shooting offsets the superior defense, which causes today's ORtg to remain the same as previous eras[/COLOR].. This is proven false because in 1997, teams took the same amount of 3-pointers at the same percentage as teams from today's era (2005-2011), yet ORtg was still the same back then (less actually).

So the 3-pointer argument holds no water and the original point remains - league-wide ORtg has remained stable for the last 30 years, which proves that it remains equally-hard to score across the eras.

This thread proves all the theories about defense that you new fans have created to downgrade previous era players is complete BS.[/QUOTE]
You're saying ortg with a short line back then is equal to what it is today with the long line. You lose

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]From what I've come to realize is that... for all intents and purposes, the league has changed stylistically, but the outputs haven't changed much.

Today the game is more team orientated than ever. For an individual player to shine, you need to have multiple scoring options on the floor. In the past, you could get away with 2-3 players who weren't genuine offensive threats because of the ISO ball from the illegal defense rules.

The talent hasn't suddenly dropped. Top players don't score as much because it doesn't equate to success like it used to. Today you can go out and score 30 a game, but it will most likely be to the detriment of their team.

People like to use the 2006 scoring leader increase as an example. How many of those scoring leaders had much success playing that way? It was only til Kobe played more team orientated, that he started succeeding again.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this

[QUOTE=3ball]Wow, you're even dumber than sdot_thadon... ****ing amazing.

Assist % does NOT mean assist per 100... Assist % is the percentage of teammates' shots that MJ assisted on.

MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates' shots.. Anyone remotely knowledgeable knows that assist % is the most relevant stat.[/QUOTE]
No deposit, 1st 3 months free? No thanks bro, I like my house.:cheers:

Youre an idiot if you cant see bran sacrificing his team for stats. These bran stans have the same iq as sheeps

I really don't see what the counter argument is- the league wasn't trying to make it harder for players/teams to score when they instituted the rule changes in the beginning and middle of the last decade. The people in charge of the changes [I]explicitly[/I] told us that the aim was to open up the game more, facilitate more scoring... and that's exactly what happened. Both individual and team scoring went up noticeably from the mid-late 90s.

In '00-'01, the last year before the illegal defense/3-second violation rule changes, the league was averaging 95 PPG on c. 47% eFG. By 2014, with the pace remaining stagnant in the 91-93 range as it had been in the seasons pre changes, the league was averaging 101 PPG on 50% eFG. Teams were scoring more, on better percentages, playing the same exact pace as the pre-rule change era.

During the 90s, only 2 players averaged at least 30 PPG- Michael Jordan and Karl Malone. Malone only accomplished the feat once.

From '00-'10, 6 different players reached the 30 PPG plateau, 3X as many as the 90s produced... 3 alone in '05-'06 (first season the NBA eliminate hand-checking on the perimeter). All of them were perimeter players and 2 of them- Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant who racked up a combined 6 scoring titles and peaked at the same time with 33 and 35 PPG respectively... were drafted in 1996. Their peak scoring during the 90s was 20-27 PPG.

Following the rule changes, teams scored more on better percentages, individual player PPG (specifically perimeter players) skyrocketed.

The NBA got its wish.

Really... what is there to argue? :biggums: