Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist

[QUOTE=aj1987][B]2010 Miami Heat - 4.75
2009 Miami Heat - 4.41
2008 Miami Heat - 4.50

2011 Cavaliers - 4.43
2012 Cavaliers - 4.61
2013 Cavaliers - 4.47
2014 Cavaliers - 4.41[/B]

You really need to go out and get a life, dude.[/QUOTE]
3Ball you care to address this? Shouldn't their numbers look better without Bron?

And why did the Bulls have their best season following you fake stat when Jordan was out?

[QUOTE=Bankaii]

3Ball you care to address this? Shouldn't their numbers look better without Bron?

And why did the Bulls have their best season following you fake stat when Jordan was out?

[/QUOTE]
Assist frequency should be better/higher WITH Lebron, and it isn't.

Otoh, when you add the greatest scorer of all time to ANY team, you'd think the assist frequency would go [I]down[/I]... But instead, it remains the same or increased.. (1992 was the Bulls' highest assist frequency)

Why did the Bulls maintain or increase assist frequency despite adding the greatest scorer of all time??.... Because MJ has a higher assisted rate - his off-ball game creates MORE opportunities for teammates to assist, while Lebron's ball-dominance does the opposite.. Lebron's lower assisted rate is a statistical fact.. Like seriously - what's better for a team - a guy getting 30 ppg at a HIGH assisted rate, or a guy getting 30 at a low assisted rate... :rolleyes:

The stats are what they are - virtually every single one of Lebron's teams gets assists at a FAR lower frequency than MJ's teams.. Like, the stats aren't close, and the sample isn't small.. It's every single year of both player's careers.

I only read the first page. Has anyone brought up the differences in team offenses? Fast break opportunities?

[QUOTE=kshutts1]I only read the first page. Has anyone brought up the differences in team offenses? Fast break opportunities?[/QUOTE]
You should be able to see by looking at the data, that there is a huge gap in assist frequency for their ENTIRE CAREERS, which includes many years where the Bulls and the league played at a slower pace (2nd three-peat).

Also, I have yet to calculate the AVERAGE gap in assist frequency for MJ and Lebron's entire careers, but it's huge... In most seasons, MJ's teams assisted 30% more frequently... That's about what the average gap is...

Pace was never 30% faster, nor do we know whether faster pace even results in a higher assist rate... None of this matters anyway - because again - there is a huge gap in assist frequency for their ENTIRE CAREERS, which includes many years where the Bulls and the league played at a slower pace (2nd three-peat).
.

[QUOTE=3ball]Assist frequency should be better/higher WITH Lebron, and it isn't.

Otoh, when you add the greatest scorer of all time to ANY team, you'd think the assist frequency would go [I]down[/I]... But instead, it remains the same or increased.. (1992 was the Bulls' highest assist frequency)

Why did the Bulls maintain or increase assist frequency despite adding the greatest scorer of all time??.[/QUOTE]
Are you even looking your own stats? Everything you just said is horribly wrong.
The Heat went DOWN .20 the years after Lebron JOINED.
The Cavs went UP .35 when Lebron LEFT.
The Cavs went back DOWN .23 when Lebron JOINED again.

Otoh the Bulls IMPROVED by .11 in 1995 when Jordan was OUT from any other season Jordan played(1995 when he missed the season was the lowest, not 1992.)

In case you're too stupid to realize. Lebron's team were worse when he left.
While Jordan's team got better when he left.

Now admit you're a dumbass and your fake stat backfired and did nothing but prove Jordan is more ball dominant than Bron, dumbass.

.
[COLOR="Navy"][I]No one in history is more explosive off a one-step vertical (drop-step):[/I][/COLOR]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-13-2015/LJ8raP.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2015/P5BrOZ.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/zC5nUD.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/yIFtcV.gif[/IMG]



[I][COLOR="Navy"]No one in history is more explosive from a pre-dribble, stationary position (triple threat position):[/COLOR][/I]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/PIt8Kg.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2015/PIr0LW.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/TGZukz.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-30-2015/B_wITa.gif[/IMG]

Dude your stat make no sense. Lebrons teams got worse when he left and got better when was on the team your just making yourself look stupid. Jordans team got better at this stat when he left.

[QUOTE=Bankaii]Are you even looking your own stats? Everything you just said is horribly wrong.
The Heat went DOWN .20 the years after Lebron JOINED.
The Cavs went UP .35 when Lebron LEFT.
The Cavs went back DOWN .23 when Lebron JOINED again.

Otoh the Bulls IMPROVED by .11 in 1995 when Jordan was OUT from any other season Jordan played(1995 when he missed the season was the lowest, not 1992.)

In case you're too stupid to realize. Lebron's team were worse when he left.
While Jordan's team got better when he left.

Now admit you're a dumbass and your fake stat backfired and did nothing but prove Jordan is more ball dominant than Bron, dumbass.[/QUOTE]
:eek:

Hmm, seems like another correlation could be, better supporting casts fair better at this stat as well.

[QUOTE=TripleA]Dude your stat make no sense. [B]Lebrons teams got worse when he left and got better when was on the team[/B] your just making yourself look stupid. Jordans team got better at this stat when he left.[/QUOTE]
Not true - the 2003 Cavs were at 4.50, which is better than 4.72 for the 2006 Cavs... The 2015 Heat were at 4.59, which is the same as they were in 2011 and 2012 with Lebron.

But this doesn't matter anyway, because the sample size of instances where Lebron left a team is small.

Otoh, we have a massive sample to compare Lebron's teams with MJ's Bulls and other teams, present and former... And clearly, Lebron's teams assist at frequency that is far below-average... MJ's teams assisted way more, so did Magic's, so does Duncan's and Steph Curry - everyone's team assists better than Lebron's teams.. :confusedshrug:

No surprise all those teams were flat out better teams.....

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]No surprise all those teams were flat out better teams.....[/QUOTE]
We have a massive sample to compare Lebron's teams with MJ's Bulls and other teams, present and former.. And clearly, Lebron's teams assist at frequency that is far below-average.

MJ's teams assisted way more, so did Magic's, so does Duncan's and Steph Curry - it seems like EVERYONE'S team assists better than Lebron's teams.. :confusedshrug:

So don't ever say, or even think, that Lebron's teams are great-passing teams... They're not... In MJ's case, we should EXPECT his teams to pass way better.. After all, what's more optimal for a team - to have a guy that gets 30 in a low-assisted fashion, or a guy that gets 30 in a high-assisted fashion.. :rolleyes:... MJ is so much >>

[QUOTE=3ball]Sorry bud.. :confusedshrug: ... Accept defeat.. The stats are what they are..

For Lebron's entire 11-year career, every single one of his teams assisted FAR less frequently than MJ's teams.. Like, the stats aren't close, and the sample isn't small.. It's every single year of both player's careers.[/QUOTE]
Lol the deflection is real.
The only time Lebron made his team "worse" by your made up stat was his rookie year.
While MJ was hurting his team throughout the entire of his Bulls career and they had their best year when he was out in one of his PRIME years.

Hold the L fgt, I'm done responding. I just took a shit on your fake stat and now you're just going to deflect and make up more bullshit.

[QUOTE=3ball]Nah bud... Team possessions per game/Team apg is a real stat.. And clearly, Lebron's teams assist at frequency that is far below-average.

Magic's teams assisted far more frequently, so did Bird's teams, so did MJ's teams, so does Duncan's and Steph Curry - basically EVERYONE'S team assists better than Lebron's teams.. :confusedshrug:

So don't ever say, [I]or even think[/I], that Lebron's teams are great-passing teams... They're not...

In MJ's case, we should EXPECT his teams to pass way better.. After all, what's more optimal for a team - to have a guy that gets 30 in a low-assisted fashion, or a guy that gets 30 in a high-assisted fashion.. :rolleyes:... MJ is so much >>[/QUOTE]

It's ironic that LeBron gets praise for having assist numbers yet his team is low in assists per possessions. Fans that "get it" know that LeBron's assist numbers don't translate to team basketball and are just boosted because of LeBron's excessive ball domination.

[QUOTE=3ball]Sorry bud.. :confusedshrug: ... Accept defeat.. The stats are what they are..

For Lebron's entire 11-year career, every single one of his teams assisted FAR less frequently than MJ's teams.. Like, the stats aren't close, and the sample isn't small.. It's every single year of both player's careers.[/QUOTE]

I dig your gifs bro, but bankaii just served you up. Take the L, and move forward amigo.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]I dig your gifs bro, but bankaii just served you up. Take the L, and move forward amigo.[/QUOTE]
Only a someone that can't understand statistics would think he had a point - the sample size of instances where Lebron left a team is small and the change in assist frequency goes both ways.. Same thing for when MJ left his teams.

Otoh, we have a massive sample to compare Lebron's teams to other teams, present and former... And clearly, Lebron's teams assist at frequency that is far below-average... Duncan's teams assisted way more, so did Magic's, MJ's, Bird's, Steph Curry's - [I]everyone's[/I] team assists better than Lebron's teams..

[I]So don't ever say, or even think, that Lebron's teams are great-passing teams... They're not.. Everyone else's team assists FAR more frequently.
[/I]
In MJ's case, we should EXPECT his teams to pass way better.. After all, what's more optimal for a team - to have a guy that gets 26 points in a low-assisted fashion, or a guy that gets 32 in a high-assisted fashion.. ... MJ is so much >>

^ 3ball deleted and reposted this every 5 mins for the last hour

no life :lol






oh and 1-9

[QUOTE=Bankaii]

While MJ was hurting his team throughout the entire of his Bulls career and they had their best year when he was out in one of his PRIME years.

[/QUOTE]
[B]You're lying about the numbers - surely you know that anyone can go check[/B]

MJ's Bulls had a better assist frequency in 1992 and 1993 (3.40 and 3.56 possessions per assist) than they did in 1994 (3.59).

When he returned, their assist frequency went back up to 3.45 in 1997... So you lied - MJ improved the team - but again, these numbers are meaningless without a bigger sample size.

The only thing we have a big sample size about is TEAM COMPARISONS - and when we compare Lebron's teams to anyone else's teams, we see that Lebron's teams assist at a frequency that's FAR below-average and FAR below all of his peers.. Duncan's teams, Magic's teams, Bird's teams, MJ's teams, Steph Curry's teams - [I]everyone's[/I] team assists more frequently than Lebron's.


[QUOTE=Bankaii]

The only time Lebron made his team "worse" by your made up stat was his rookie year.

[/QUOTE]
That's right - the Cavs assisted MORE frequently before Lebron got there in 2004.

And when Lebron left the Cavs in 2011, it wasn't just him leaving... The Cavs lost Mo Williams, Shaquille O'Neal, Zydrunas Illgauskas, Anderson Varejao and Delonte West - so are you going to give credit to the departure of these guys for reducing assist frequency, or are you going to give all the credit to Lebron?

So again, we don't have a good sample size for the instances when MJ or Lebron were added to a team or removed from a team.

The only thing we have a big sample size about is TEAM COMPARISONS - and when we compare Lebron's teams to anyone else's teams, we see that Lebron's teams assist at a frequency that's FAR below-average and FAR below all of his peers.

[QUOTE=dubeta]^ 3ball deleted and reposted this every 5 mins for the last hour

no life :lol






oh and 1-9[/QUOTE]
You're still salty because oldschool murdered you in the other thread... brush it off brah.. you should be used to it

3ball,

I was under the impression these stats were correct:

[quote]The Heat went DOWN .20 the years after Lebron JOINED.
The Cavs went UP .35 when Lebron LEFT.
The Cavs went back DOWN .23 when Lebron JOINED again.

Otoh the Bulls IMPROVED by .11 in 1995 when Jordan was OUT from any other season Jordan played(1995 when he missed the season was the lowest, not 1992.)[/quote]

If what you said is TRUE, and he intentially posted wrong numbers, then I'll admit I jumped the gun. Otherwise? How does this NOT go against what you claimed in your OP? :confusedshrug:

3ball begging for our attention, keep deleting those posts bud :lol

Maybe someday Jordan will read them



Most pathetic poster here, a human cancer, modern day version on 80's Playoff MJ :oldlol:

[QUOTE=dubeta]^ 3ball deleted and reposted this every 5 mins for the last hour

no life :lol






oh and 1-9[/QUOTE]

please ban this guy, he brings nothing of value not even to trolling. His only contribution is to add unnecessary posts which drive up the cost of server bandwith.

Seriously mods, this guy is not an asset.

Terminate account.

Dubeta go home you're drunk.

Kuniva - The Cavs lost half their team in 2011 (Mo Williams, Shaq, Zydrunas, Delonte, Varejao), so it's dumb to attribute their 0.20 change in assist frequency to Lebron... Same thing in 2015, when Wade and Bosh were hurt much of the year.

If you can't see that, then I can't help you... You don't see me bragging about MJ's 1992 and 1993 Bulls having a higher assist frequency than the 1994 Bulls, because it's meaningless without bigger sample size to cancel out extenuating circumstances, like those mentioned above with Lebron's former teams.

The only thing we have a big enough sample size for is team comparisons of Lebron's teams to other teams - and clearly, his teams have far lower assist frequency than basically everyone, not just MJ's teams - this is statistical fact.

Don't be dumb bud - unfortunately, by thinking Bankaii had some sort of point... that makes you dumb, at least on this.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]3ball,

I was under the impression these stats were correct:



If what you said is TRUE, and he intentially posted wrong numbers, then I'll admit I jumped the gun. Otherwise? How does this NOT go against what you claimed in your OP? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Other factors can be attributed to the change in assist frequency, such as Wade and Bosh being injured for much of the 2015 season, and the 2011 Cavs losing half their team, not just Lebron..

But I guess you need a college-level understanding of stats to realize Bankaii's numbers are meaningless.. You didn't see me bragging about MJ's 1992 and 1993 Bulls having a higher assist frequency than the 1994 Bulls, because it's meaningless without bigger sample size to cancel out extenuating circumstances, like those mentioned above with Lebron's former teams.

The only thing we have a big enough sample size for is team comparisons of Lebron's teams to other teams - and clearly, his teams have far lower assist frequency than basically [I]everyone[/I], not just MJ's teams - this is statistical fact.

Even MJ's horrific teams in the mid-80's had FAR higher assist frequency than Lebron's stacked Heat teams.. However, this shouldn't be a surprise because what's more optimal for a team - when a player gets 26 points in a low-assisted fashion, or a guy that gets 32 points in a high-assisted fashion??.. MJ is dimensions >>>

So don't ever say, [I]or even think[/I], that Lebron's teams are good-passing teams - this data proves his teams are bad passing teams.

I understand your point, but in another thread, this is you verbatim:

[quote]27 games is a solid sample size... That's an entire college season.[/quote]

This was regarding scoring abilities between LeBron and Durant. Why the sudden change in logic? Why exactly aren't the samples large enough in your comparison here? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=3ball]We have a massive sample to compare Lebron's teams with MJ's Bulls and other teams, present and former.. And clearly, Lebron's teams assist at frequency that is far below-average.

MJ's teams assisted way more, so did Magic's, so does Duncan's and Steph Curry - it seems like EVERYONE'S team assists better than Lebron's teams.. :confusedshrug:

So don't ever say, or even think, that Lebron's teams are great-passing teams... They're not... In MJ's case, we should EXPECT his teams to pass way better.. After all, what's more optimal for a team - to have a guy that gets 30 in a low-assisted fashion, or a guy that gets 30 in a high-assisted fashion.. :rolleyes:... MJ is so much >>[/QUOTE]
Who's ever said Lebron's teams were great passing teams? Wtf? If anything what's said is he has to set the table for his teams far too often. So you basically prove that Mj had teammates more capable of tooting their own horn? Unless you solely wish to credit Mj for these team stats......
Honestly the only time he's had a teammate truly capable of playmaking was wade especially in 2011 and to a lesser extent every year beyond that due to injury and Kevin love once they get the hang of how to use him. Also the best showing of this "stat" is 2013 which just so happened to be the best team he ever played on.....hmmm.

As far as what is more optimal? Neither. That's the beauty of basketball 3ball, there's more than one way to play the game. You play according to your assets, MJ and Lebron are 2 completely different players. Mj is the guy shooting, Lebron is the guy running the offense. What's with this tunnel vision that he has to recreate MJ's career in order to be validated?

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]I understand your point, but in another thread, this is you verbatim:



This was regarding scoring abilities between LeBron and Durant. Why the sudden change in logic? Why exactly aren't the samples large enough in your comparison here? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
we don't have 27 instances of Lebron and MJ being added or subtracted from teams.. we have like 5

[QUOTE=3ball]we don't have 27 instances of Lebron and MJ being added or subtracted from teams.. we have like 5[/QUOTE]

Hmmm. Didn't Bankaii use 1995 as one of the years in comparison? You know, the year MJ missed 3 quarters of the season?

:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

So you basically prove that Mj had teammates more capable of tooting their own horn?

[/QUOTE]
[I]1988 Bulls[/I]: 95.5/26.2 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
[I]1987 Bulls[/I]: 95.8/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]

[I]2012 Heat[/I]: 91.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.56[/COLOR]
[I]2011 Heat[/I]: 90.9/20.0 = [COLOR="red"]4.55[/COLOR]


All of MJ's teams assisted at a far higher rate.. Even the really shitty ones had a far higher assisted rate than Lebron's stacked Heat teams.

Again, this shouldn't be a surprise - contrary to what you think, it IS more optimal to have your #1 option getting his 30 points in a highly assisted fashion, then someone getting 30 in a low-assisted fashion (doing it all himself).

The only position on the court that is low-assisted is point guard.. When a player turns any other position into a low-assisted position (like Lebron does at sf), he lowers the assist capacity of his team relative to other teams (who have higher assisted players at the sf spot).
.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Hmmm. Didn't Bankaii use 1995 as one of the years in comparison? You know, the year MJ missed 3 quarters of the season?

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
not sure what point you were making here regarding 1995.

but regarding the point i was making earlier - mj was added to the Bulls in 1985... Subtracted in 1994... Added back for a full season in 1996... subtracted again in 1999.. that's 4 instances, and each time, you could never credit MJ fully for the change in assist frequency (i.e. it wasn't just MJ that left in 1999.. the entire team was broken up).

lebron has about 4-5 instances too, which isn't many, and each time he could never be fully credited for the change in assists (i.e. the 2011 Cavs didn't just lose Lebron.. they lost half their team).

[QUOTE=3ball]not sure what point you were making here regarding 1995.

but regarding the point i was making earlier - mj was added to the Bulls in 1985... Subtracted in 1994... Added back for a full season in 1996... subtracted again in 1999.. that's 4 instances, and each time, you could never credit MJ fully for the change in assist frequency (i.e. it wasn't just MJ that left in 1999.. the entire team was broken up).

lebron has about 4-5 instances too, which isn't many, and each time he could never be fully credited for the change in assists (i.e. the 2011 Cavs didn't just lose Lebron.. they lost half their team).[/QUOTE]

That in 1995, the Bulls had a better assist ratio than they did previous years.

Not sure why you're giving this stat ANY credence. It only paints MJ in a negative light - for that year at least.

Assist percentage. It exists and goes back into the 70's. LeBron's on/off assist percentage can be looked at. His entire career of it.

If this is looking at assists, turnovers should be looked at too.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]That in 1995, the Bulls had a better assist ratio than they did previous years.

Not sure why you're giving this stat ANY credence. It only paints MJ in a negative light - for that year at least.[/QUOTE]
The stat isn't useful to evaluate whether the addition or subtraction of a player affects the assist frequency of the team - there are too many factors to credit a change in assist frequency to one player (i.e. the Cavs losing half their roster in 2011 or Bosh/Wade being hurt in 2015) - it's pretty ridiculous to try to credit a change in assist frequency to one player.

However, the stat works well to simply compare teams and see which team assisted more frequently than the other team.. Accordingly, the stat paints MJ in a great light - [I]all[/I] of his teams had a far higher assist frequency than [I]all[/I] of Lebron's teams.

At the very least, it proves that ALL of Lebron's teams [I]aren't[/I] good passing teams... Meanwhile, MJ's teams had an elite assist frequency when you compare to various champion teams like Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, Steph Curry's Warriors, Duncan's Spurs, etc, etc.. Unfortunately, none of Lebron's teams have ever been anywhere NEAR elite assist frequency.

[QUOTE=3ball]The stat isn't useful to evaluate whether the addition or subtraction of a player affects the assist frequency of the team - there are too many factors to credit a change in assist frequency to one player (i.e. the Cavs losing half their roster in 2011 or Bosh/Wade being hurt in 2015) - it's pretty ridiculous to try to credit a change in assist frequency to one player.

However, the stat works well to simply compare teams and see which team assisted more frequently than the other team.. Accordingly, the stat paints MJ in a great light - [I]all[/I] of his teams had a far higher assist frequency than [I]all[/I] of Lebron's teams.[/quote]

All points taken, and I appreciate the explanation. But if we're trying to add context to this, why NOT do the same with MJ and LeBron led teams?

We know that Mike played in a structured offense ie. the triangle, while Pippen played point-forward during their championship runs (both of them were great off ball).

On the other hand, Bron and Wade were both ball dominant, and played for a team who's coach didn't do much to alleviate that problem. Wade was literally forced to sacrifice his game just so the Heat could succeed, and finally breakthrough.

If we're being intellectually honest, we would be remiss NOT to point out these things. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]All points taken, and I appreciate the explanation. But if we're trying to add context to this, why NOT do the same with MJ and LeBron led teams?

We know that Mike played in a structured offense ie. the triangle, while Pippen played point-forward during their championship runs (both of them were great off ball).

On the other hand, Bron and Wade were both ball dominant, and played for a team who's coach didn't do much to alleviate that problem. Wade was literally forced to sacrifice his game just so the Heat could succeed, and finally breakthrough.

If we're being intellectually honest, we would be remiss NOT to point out these things. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Its easier to play off the ball than on the ball. Its more of a mentality whether youre willing to sacrifice stats for rings or not. But bran wouldnt coz if you remove his apg, he becomes nothing coz hes not an elite scorer. So his only hope is to stack teammates and hope for the best.

This proves that bran ball=stagnant offense. Or what pjax said,"xbox offense". And that simple offense wont work in the biggest stage thus 2/6.

[QUOTE=3ball].
[B]Possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):[/B]


[I]2015 Cavs[/I]: 92.3/22.1 = [COLOR="red"]4.18[/COLOR]
[I]2014 Heat[/I]: 91.2/22.5 = [COLOR="Red"]4.05[/COLOR]
[I]2013 Heat[/I]: 90.7/23.0 = [COLOR="Red"]3.94[/COLOR]
[I]2012 Heat[/I]: 91.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.56[/COLOR]
[I]2011 Heat[/I]: 90.9/20.0 = [COLOR="red"]4.55[/COLOR]
[I]2010 Cavs[/I]: 91.4/22.4 = [COLOR="Red"]4.08[/COLOR]
[I]2009 Cavs[/I]: 88.7/20.3 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
[I]2008 Cavs[/I]: 90.2/20.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.51[/COLOR]
[I]2007 Cavs[/I]: 90.8/20.8 = [COLOR="Red"]4.37[/COLOR]
[I]2006 Cavs[/I]: 89.8/19.0 = [COLOR="Red"]4.72[/COLOR]


[I]1998 Bulls[/I]: 89.0/23.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.74[/COLOR]
[I]1997 Bulls[/I]: 90.0/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.45[/COLOR]
[I]1996 Bulls[/I]: 91.1/24.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
[I]1993 Bulls[/I]: 92.5/26.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.56[/COLOR]
[I]1992 Bulls[/I]: 94.4/27.8 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.40[/COLOR]
[I]1991 Bulls[/I]: 95.6/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.54[/COLOR]
[I]1990 Bulls[/I]: 96.7/26.5 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
[I]1989 Bulls[/I]: 97.0/27.0 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.59[/COLOR]
[I]1988 Bulls[/I]: 95.5/26.2 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.65[/COLOR]
[I]1987 Bulls[/I]: 95.8/26.1 = [COLOR="Blue"]3.67[/COLOR]
[I]1985 Bulls[/I]: 99.4/24.3 = [COLOR="Blue"]4.09[/COLOR]


[I]2015 GSW[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 98.3/27.4 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.59[/COLOR]
[I]2014 Spurs[/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 95.0/25.2 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.77[/COLOR]
[I]2011 Mavs[/I]:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 91.3/23.8 = [COLOR="Magenta"]3.84[/COLOR]
[I]2007 Spurs[/I]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 89.8/22.1 = [COLOR="Magenta"]4.06[/COLOR]

[I]1987 Lakers[/I]: 101.6/29.6 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.43[/COLOR]
[I]1986 Celtics[/I]: 102.1/29.1 = [COLOR="darkgreen"]3.47[/COLOR]

[I]Source: basketball-reference.com[/I]


[/QUOTE]


and from the numbers in which you have derived, we will go ahead and include the range numerically from 3-4.5

means that 'every 3 to 4.5 possessions, one will result in a basket due to team ball movement, or assist plays' depending on how your teams offense is constructed.

which also means there are 2 to 3.5 possessions in which an attempt will come not through an assisted play.

and even if we were to go ahead and assume that given these scenarios, NBA players will now periodically attempt field goals at a less than desirable rate for the whole game from the increase in none-assisted isolation plays.

(pace(z) - apg(y))*fg%(x) + apg(y) = total field goal made
zx - yx + y
zx - y(x-1) = x(z-y) + y
x is a set number less than 1

zx = (1-x)y
zx/y = 1-x
z/y = (1-x)/x

the better your team shoots, the less assist matters

4.5 = (1-x)/x
4.5x = 1-x
4.5 = 1/x - 1
5.5 = 1/x
x=0.18

3 = (1-x)/x
3x = 1-x
3 = 1/x - 1
4 = 1/x
x = 0.25

0.18az = 0.25bz
(0.18/0.25) = b/a
0.72 = b/a
b = 0.72a

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.

[QUOTE=GimmeThat]and from the numbers in which you have derived, we will go ahead and include the range numerically from 3-4.5

means that 'every 3 to 4.5 possessions, one will result in a basket due to team ball movement, or assist plays' depending on how your teams offense is constructed.

which also means there are 2 to 3.5 possessions in which an attempt will come not through an assisted play.

and even if we were to go ahead and assume that given these scenarios, NBA players will now periodically attempt field goals at a less than desirable rate for the whole game from the increase in none-assisted isolation plays.

(pace(z) - apg(y))*fg%(x) + apg(y) = total field goal made
zx - yx + y
zx - y(x-1) = x(z-y) + y
x is a set number less than 1

zx = (1-x)y
zx/y = 1-x
z/y = (1-x)/x

the better your team shoots, the less assist matters

4.5 = (1-x)/x
4.5x = 1-x
4.5 = 1/x - 1
5.5 = 1/x
x=0.18

3 = (1-x)/x
3x = 1-x
3 = 1/x - 1
4 = 1/x
x = 0.25

0.18az = 0.25bz
(0.18/0.25) = b/a
0.72 = b/a
b = 0.72a

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.[/QUOTE]

stat nerd mumbo jumbo

[QUOTE=GimmeThat]and from the numbers in which you have derived, we will go ahead and include the range numerically from 3-4.5

means that 'every 3 to 4.5 possessions, one will result in a basket due to team ball movement, or assist plays' depending on how your teams offense is constructed.

which also means there are 2 to 3.5 possessions in which an attempt will come not through an assisted play.

and even if we were to go ahead and assume that given these scenarios, NBA players will now periodically attempt field goals at a less than desirable rate for the whole game from the increase in none-assisted isolation plays.

(pace(z) - apg(y))*fg%(x) + apg(y) = total field goal made
zx - yx + y
zx - y(x-1) = x(z-y) + y
x is a set number less than 1

zx = (1-x)y
zx/y = 1-x
z/y = (1-x)/x

the better your team shoots, the less assist matters

4.5 = (1-x)/x
4.5x = 1-x
4.5 = 1/x - 1
5.5 = 1/x
x=0.18

3 = (1-x)/x
3x = 1-x
3 = 1/x - 1
4 = 1/x
x = 0.25

0.18az = 0.25bz
(0.18/0.25) = b/a
0.72 = b/a
b = 0.72a

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.[/QUOTE]
Damn good work here :applause:

[QUOTE=GimmeThat]

from this we can derive the needed pace difference in order to make up the team apg difference

Edit - it's probably not perfect, and may contain error(including mathematical ones), but since conceptually it made sense, I submitted the post.

[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what you posted or what your point was.. Aren't you the guy that randomly posts ambiguous nonsensical posts when a thread is languishing?

I think you are... And I think that's what you did here.

The stat listed in the OP - team possessions per game/team apg is already pace-adjusted, obviously, although I don't even know if that's what you were saying.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]


[B][SIZE="3"]But if we're trying to add context to this, why NOT do the same with MJ and LeBron led teams?[/SIZE][/B]

We know that Mike played in a structured offense ie. the triangle, while Pippen played point-forward during their championship runs (both of them were great off ball).

[B][SIZE="3"]On the other hand, Bron and Wade were both ball dominant[/SIZE][/B]


[/QUOTE]
[B][I][COLOR="navy"]The context you added doesn't help the argument for Lebron - whose fault is it that Wade and Bron are ball-dominant?.. Their fault... :confusedshrug: [/COLOR][/I]
[/B]
Otoh, MJ was elite at both ball-dominance and off-ball play, which has been my point all along.. His elite off-ball ability enabled him to have a high-assisted rate, which increased the playmaking capacity of the team.

For Wade and Lebron, their ball-dominance caused them to have low-assisted rates like a guard - this wasn't suboptimal in Wade's case, since PG's and SG's frequently have low-assisted rates... But Lebron's ball-dominance turned a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low assisted one, which lowers the playmaking capacity of his teams relative to other teams who had more traditional, high-assisted SF's and PF's.

Lebron's abnormally low-assisted rate for his position is part of the reason ALL his teams have low assist frequency, not just his Heat teams.. Look at the 2015 Cavs - they have the same problem the Heat had - two low-assisted ball-dominators (Kyrie and Lebron).. It's not suboptimal for Kyrie, but it is for Lebron... Btw, replace Lebron with MJ on the Heat or this year's Cavs, and it's hard to imagine chemistry not being WORLDS better as MJ plays off-ball, while Kyrie and Wade do their thing.