Could Pippen have played PG and averaged 11 apg?

[QUOTE=plowking]Jordan has the highest usage rate ever. At the end of the day, the ball was going through his hands more than anyone either way.
He isn't a better passer than Wade. He didn't make the type of passes Wade did in his career. He didn't consistently have the high apg seasons that Wade did. Wade was throwing inch perfect football passes to Bron, and absolutely insane behind the backs constantly to Zo and Shaq all throughout his career.[/QUOTE]
Please Mj led his team in asts in 88,89,90,91,93 in 5he playoffs

[QUOTE=plowking]Jordan has the highest usage rate ever. At the end of the day, the ball was going through his hands more than anyone either way.
He isn't a better passer than Wade. He didn't make the type of passes Wade did in his career. He didn't consistently have the high apg seasons that Wade did. Wade was throwing inch perfect football passes to Bron, and absolutely insane behind the backs constantly to Zo and Shaq all throughout his career.[/QUOTE]

Usage rate does NOT show how much time a player has the ball in their hands. Lebron and Wade have had the ball in their hands in terms of clock time WAY more than Jordan did. When you have the ball in your hands that much as a supserstar, and are involved in multiple P&R situations per possession, you are going to rack up assists regardless, because these guys are just that good and will make things happen.

And yes, he is a better passer than Wade. Jordan has thrown fullcourt baseball passes right on the money, halfcourt look-away alley-oops, and other passes Wade hasn't. At the very least, there is ZERO evidence for suggesting Wade is a better passer aside from his apg numbers, which, again, are skewed by how much he dominated the ball from '06-'10.

EDIT: And both Wade and James' assist numbers are helped relative to Jordan's due to not having another 6+ apg guy on the same team doing a lot of handling. That's why Wade's apg dropped from 6.5 to 4.6 Lebron's first season in Miami, and why Lebron's dropped from 8.6 to 7.0 that same year.

Not sure why people think averaging a lot of assists is that great of a thing anyway, especially coming from someone who's already scoring 25+ ppg. Its usually an indication that someone is too ball-dominant. Sure, it works sometime buts its not ideal for a championship team. Individual APG is maybe the most overrated stat there is.

[QUOTE=guy]Not sure why people think averaging a lot of assists is that great of a thing anyway, especially coming from someone who's already scoring 25+ ppg. Its usually an indication that someone is too ball-dominant. Sure, it works sometime buts its not ideal for a championship team. Individual APG is maybe the most overrated stat there is.[/QUOTE]
What's so overrated about it if you don't mind?

Overrated because it's entirely dependent upon someone else finishing a play.

Dunno how to track it, but would be better to see how many "assist opportunities" a player generated, rather than how many of those shots his teammates made.

Edit: Would also be nice to see "points generated", that includes FTs, 2p and 3p shots that were the result of a pass, plus the actual points said player scored.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]What's so overrated about it if you don't mind?[/QUOTE]

Cause it usually means one guy is dominating the ball so much and there's not as much ball movement. Its not always the case, especially over a shorter timeframe like a playoff series, but usually it is. I'd rather have a team where on any given night any 2-3 players at a time can get 4-5 assists as opposed to only 1 player can usually get 10 assists. There's a reason why you rarely see teams win titles with someone who averages that many assists. Pretty sure Magic is the only one that has done it with double digit assists.

[QUOTE=guy]Cause it usually means one guy is dominating the ball so much and there's not as much ball movement. Its not always the case, especially over a shorter timeframe like a playoff series, but usually it is. I'd rather have a team where on any given night any 2-3 players at a time can get 4-5 assists as opposed to only 1 player can usually get 10 assists. There's a reason why you rarely see teams win titles with someone who averages that many assists. Pretty sure Magic is the only one that has done it with double digit assists.[/QUOTE]

Good point. Just because a guy has a lot of assists doesn't necessarily mean he's optimizing the team's offensive capabilities. Magic is probably the only one who made it work. For instance, no one will argue that CP3 is an all time great PG when it comes to maximizing a team's offense on every possession but some will argue that the mere fact that he's dominating the ball that much is not good for a team in the long run. They will argue that you need more ball movement. And history kind of backs up this theory.

History proves you win with either a dominant big or dominant wing as your lead dog. Lead PGs seldom win rings.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Scottie at age 38 was made point of the struggling Blazers and the team suddenly went 30-8 with him doing it. Being a point guard is not just stacking assists. Scottie was a great leader....a great teammate...he knew the best position to put his guys...he knew how to keep everyone happy...he could set any tempo...he knew when to score. Pat Riley was talking about him dominating games that year when hed have like 12/7. I remember because we had topics on if Pippen was the best point in the West....at 38.

He straight up became an every night point guard at 38 and made his team better overnight.

Who gives a shit how many assists he averaged doing it? Are you playing to win or accumulate stats? Even all time great scorers known previously as ballhogs like Mike and Wilt proved they could just decide to pass up shots and make teammates shoot to stack assists. Wilt led the NBA. Doesn't mean hes a better point guard than Lenny Wilkens.

It means he averaged a bunch of assists for a while.

They aren't the same thing.

Scottie wouldn't average 11 assists because he wouldn't give a shit. He would just try to put people in the best position to have success.

Its been shown time and time again in the NBA that you can bullshit your way to assists that don't help your team.

That isn't what Pippen would attempt to do. But he would be a better team leader and runner of an offense than a lot of people getting more assists.

Marbury can average 9-10 assists. Id take Pippen as my point 100% of the time.[/QUOTE]

Great post! For starters, some people confuse PG with point forward. For most of his career, Pippen was a point forward. But on Portland, he was ACTUALLY a PG. The backcourt was Pip at PG and Steve Smith at SG. From there, they had Detlef or Bonzi Wells start at the SF. And Pip did a great job, especially considering his age.

If a peak Pippen played as a big PG at his peak, I'm convinced he would be capable of getting 21-22 points, 8-9 dimes, and 7-8 boards a night. U have your point forward kind of players like Bird, Odom, Kukoc, etc. who can't really play the PG spot. Then u have the guys like Bron, Pip, and G Hill who could EASILY play the PG spot straight up! That's means both offensively and even defensively. Would that be their ideal position? Maybe not. Because all three guys were freakish athletes in the open court and great finishers.

So them playing as a point forward allows them more flexibility. BUT if they had to play as PG's straight up the majority of their careers, I'm CONVINCED all three would have been great HOF PG's. All three looked to pass first and make their teammates better.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]Good point. Just because a guy has a lot of assists doesn't necessarily mean he's optimizing the team's offensive capabilities. Magic is probably the only one who made it work. For instance, no one will argue that CP3 is an all time great PG when it comes to maximizing a team's offense on every possession but some will argue that the mere fact that he's dominating the ball that much is not good for a team in the long run. They will argue that you need more ball movement. And history kind of backs up this theory.

History proves you win with either a dominant big or dominant wing as your lead dog. Lead PGs seldom win rings.[/QUOTE]Clippers were the #1 offense in the league while being 3rd in assists in both '14 and '15.

CP3 also had the most hockey assists in the league for the past 2 seasons. They move the ball fine.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]Good point. Just because a guy has a lot of assists doesn't necessarily mean he's optimizing the team's offensive capabilities. Magic is probably the only one who made it work. For instance, no one will argue that CP3 is an all time great PG when it comes to maximizing a team's offense on every possession but some will argue that the mere fact that he's dominating the ball that much is not good for a team in the long run. They will argue that you need more ball movement. And history kind of backs up this theory.

History proves you win with either a dominant big or dominant wing as your lead dog. Lead PGs seldom win rings.[/QUOTE]

I agree! The reason why a dominant big or dominant wing is typically the lead dog IS BECAUSE alpha dog scoring is the most premium asset in basketball. So that means guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Bird, Barry, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Dream, etc. But I think pass first PG's who can ALSO dominate scoring are just as devastating or close. Those are guys like Magic and Isiah. The Big O was capable of that too, but he didn't really have the teams to do that.

I think CP3 is capable as well, but as u stated dominating the ball can be detrimental to winning a ring. When Isiah won rings, his dime numbers were a lot lower than his days of getting 12-13 assists a night. The ball movement was better AND he had a guy like Dumars who could be the playmaker as well. Which allowed Isiah to focus on scoring.

[QUOTE=Young X]Clippers were the #1 offense in the league while being 3rd in assists in both '14 and '15.

CP3 also had the most hockey assists in the league for the past 2 seasons. They move the ball fine.[/QUOTE]

True. But the Clips offense is also a better regular season offense than playoff offense because they are based on an up tempo style and athleticism. Things slow down in the playoffs and they aren't as potent. Guys like Crawford, who have a lot of space to work with in the regular season, get bodied up and he loses his effectiveness. I'm a huge CP3 fan also. He might be THE most efficient PG ever in terms of maximizing each possession on a possession by possession basis.

But my post was based more on a general theory about the history of the game. Ball dominant PG's who lead a team seldom win rings. And part of that is because you don't want one guy dominating the ball too much. It can make the offense stagnant at times, even if your PG is great. However, I do think CP3 is great enough to win one as lead dog but his window is closing.

[QUOTE=bizil]I agree! The reason why a dominant big or dominant wing is typically the lead dog IS BECAUSE alpha dog scoring is the most premium asset in basketball. So that means guys like MJ, Kobe, Bron, Bird, Barry, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Dream, etc. But I think pass first PG's who can ALSO dominate scoring are just as devastating or close. Those are guys like Magic and Isiah. The Big O was capable of that too, but he didn't really have the teams to do that.

I think CP3 is capable as well, but as u stated dominating the ball can be detrimental to winning a ring. When Isiah won rings, his dime numbers were a lot lower than his days of getting 12-13 assists a night. The ball movement was better AND he had a guy like Dumars who could be the playmaker as well. Which allowed Isiah to focus on scoring.[/QUOTE]

Another reason why wings or bigs win rings is because they can impact the game more. They are taller and most all time greats can play on both ends. They are just more impactful. As a small PG, there is only so much you can do when going up against 7 footers and 6'6" wings.

[QUOTE=kshutts1]Overrated because it's entirely dependent upon someone else finishing a play.

Dunno how to track it, but would be better to see how many "assist opportunities" a player generated, rather than how many of those shots his teammates made.

Edit: Would also be nice to see "points generated", that includes FTs, 2p and 3p shots that were the result of a pass, plus the actual points said player scored.[/QUOTE]
Offensive Win shares is literally the calculation of those things.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]True. But the Clips offense is also a better regular season offense than playoff offense because they are based on an up tempo style and athleticism. Things slow down in the playoffs and they aren't as potent.[/QUOTE]With Paul on the court, their playoff offense has been just as good as it is in the regular season. They just collapse when he isn't in the game. That along with their average defense is why they haven't taken the next step. You have to be a 2 way team to win a title which the Clippers haven't been.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]Another reason why wings or bigs win rings is because they can impact the game more. They are taller and most all time greats can play on both ends. They are just more impactful. As a small PG, there is only so much you can do when going up against 7 footers and 6'6" wings.[/QUOTE]

Yep. Small PG's don't have the versatility at 6'6 perimeter player does. For example, MJ could play PG, SG, and SF on both sides of the ball. Smaller PG's simply cant match that blend of size, versatility, and skill. That's why smaller guards are kind of like pound for pound smaller boxers.

Skill for skill, guys like Curry, AI, Iverson, and Paul are as good as anybody. But when u have guys 6'6 and up with the same kind of skill level, the bigger players have the edge.

[QUOTE=guy]Cause it usually means one guy is dominating the ball so much and there's not as much ball movement. Its not always the case, especially over a shorter timeframe like a playoff series, but usually it is. I'd rather have a team where on any given night any 2-3 players at a time can get 4-5 assists as opposed to only 1 player can usually get 10 assists. There's a reason why you rarely see teams win titles with someone who averages that many assists. Pretty sure Magic is the only one that has done it with double digit assists.[/QUOTE]
I see where you're coming from but I don't agree that it makes it overrated. I'd add the overrated aspect of it is its not detailed enough. Needs hockey assists, maybe possible assists where guys blow the opportunity. All assists definitely aren't equal, you have some guys actively looking to setup teammates and run the offense. Then you have guys who are actively looking to shoot and improvise into assists as a last resort.

It's true though that dominant pg struggle in the postseason, probably just because the book has been out on it for decades now. Turn them into a scorer while not giving many passing lanes. Works like a charm. The worst thing is most teams with dominant playmakers lack the talent to compete without being spoonfed.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]
And yes, he is a better passer than Wade. Jordan has thrown fullcourt baseball passes right on the money, halfcourt look-away alley-oops, and other passes Wade hasn't. At the very least, there is ZERO evidence for suggesting Wade is a better passer aside from his apg numbers, which, again, are skewed by how much he dominated the ball from '06-'10.

[/QUOTE]

No, he isn't. I watch the games. I have eyes. Jordan isn't the passer Wade is. In fact, I'd put him a tier lower. Wade is able to find guys on the court better, hit them in stride better, etc.

As far as SG's go, Oscar, Wade, and Ginobili are able to pull off passes Jordan couldn't. Jordan's passing isn't directly what made him a guy who could rack up assists. He was simply a great/the best playmaker, and his passing was a secondary product of that. Jordan never wowed me with passes like the guys above. His playmaking did, not his passes.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Jordan is indeed a better passer than Wade. And Jordan "only" averaged 8 apg that season because he was only playing a ball dominant PG role for the final 24 games of the season (not the entire season), during which time he averaged 11 apg.

You're deluding yourself if you think that '89-'93 Jordan, handling the ball as much as '06-'13 Wade/Bron, does not average 8+ apg annually.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, only an idiot would call Wade a better passer.

Some of Mike's best passes have come from trying to score, but there are those where dude is just setting people up with the proverbial spoon feed.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM[/url]

Wade might have 2 maybe 3 quarters of that ability. If that.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Yeah, only an idiot would call Wade a better passer.

Some of Mike's best passes have come from trying to score, but there are those where dude is just setting people up with the proverbial spoon feed.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM[/url]

Wade might have 2 maybe 3 quarters of that ability. If that.[/QUOTE]

Terrible post as usual.

Wade>Jordan as a passer.
Ginobili>Jordan as a passer.
Oscar>Jordan as a passer.

[QUOTE=plowking]Terrible post as usual.

Wade>Jordan as a passer.
Ginobili>Jordan as a passer.
Oscar>Jordan as a passer.[/QUOTE]

Repeating yourself like some drooling retard isn't an argument.

I mean, there's limited footage of Oscar, yet you're convinced he's a better passer. :oldlol:

In league history, only 11 guys have ever managed 11 apg. Jason Kidd never did it, nor did Cousy, nor Walt Frazier, nor Pete Maravich. Doing it more than one season puts you in company with Oscar, Magic, Stockton, Nash, Chris Paul and Rondo. It's pretty silly to assume that anyone playing out of position would have been able to do it. So no, Pippin couldn't have done it, and neither could Jordan.

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt]In league history, only 11 guys have ever managed 11 apg. Jason Kidd never did it, nor did Cousy, nor Walt Frazier, nor Pete Maravich. Doing it more than one season puts you in company with Oscar, Magic, Stockton, Nash, Chris Paul and Rondo. It's pretty silly to assume that anyone playing out of position would have been able to do it. So no, Pippin couldn't have done it, and neither could Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Good post :applause:

[SIZE="4"][B][I]pippen did play pg

he was the pg for chicago

he brought the ball up

he led the bulls in assists every year

wtf is OP smoking[/I][/B][/SIZE]

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]I see where you're coming from but I don't agree that it makes it overrated. I'd add the overrated aspect of it is its not detailed enough. Needs hockey assists, maybe possible assists where guys blow the opportunity. All assists definitely aren't equal, you have some guys actively looking to setup teammates and run the offense. Then you have guys who are actively looking to shoot and improvise into assists as a last resort.

It's true though that dominant pg struggle in the postseason, probably just because the book has been out on it for decades now. Turn them into a scorer while not giving many passing lanes. Works like a charm. The worst thing is most teams with dominant playmakers lack the talent to compete without being spoonfed.[/QUOTE]

High individual assist numbers are usually not conducive to championship basketball. How does that not make it overrated? Completely different from high individual scoring numbers since about half the championships included someone scoring 25+.

[QUOTE=guy]High individual assist numbers are usually not conducive to championship basketball. How does that not make it overrated? Completely different from high individual scoring numbers since about half the championships included someone scoring 25+.[/QUOTE]Why isn't it conducive to championship basketball? Just because it hasn't happened often?

People used to say the same thing about scoring champions winning titles until Jordan did it. In fact, besides Jordan and Shaq in 2000 I can't think of someone in recent history who led a championship team while being #1 in scoring.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Repeating yourself like some drooling retard isn't an argument.

I mean, there's limited footage of Oscar, yet you're convinced he's a better passer. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

He averaged a near triple double for like 6 seasons... in an era where it was harder to record an assist.

You have Wade, Ginobili and Jordan... all of who I watched. Ginobili is the best passer of the lot, then Wade, then Jordan. It is pretty clear as well.

[QUOTE=Young X]Why isn't it conducive to championship basketball? Just because it hasn't happened often?

People used to say the same thing about scoring champions winning titles until Jordan did it. In fact, besides Jordan and Shaq in 2000 I can't think of someone in recent history who led a championship team while being #1 in scoring.[/QUOTE]

The teams that are usually the best passing teams don't seem to be the ones that are led by a high assist PG. CP3 and Nash teams are exceptions and they dont end up as the best team anyway.

They were wrong to say that about Jordan and I wasn't just limiting it to scoring champions. There was Kareem, Barry, and Bird before Jordan and Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Lebron after him. There's been plenty of championships led by high scorers especially since Jordan.

[QUOTE=plowking]He averaged a near triple double for like 6 seasons... in an era where it was harder to record an assist.

You have Wade, Ginobili and Jordan... all of who I watched. Ginobili is the best passer of the lot, then Wade, then Jordan. It is pretty clear as well.[/QUOTE]

Averaging the most assists doesn't make you the better passer. Most of that stuff is dependent on role anyway (Oscar played PG many seasons, by the way).

I'll agree with Gino being the best passer of the bunch, but Wade isn't better than Jordan. Not visibly. Not statistically (when both got to play point). Not anything. Every 'nice pass' Wade has had, Jordan did it better. Just watch the video I linked.

MJ is setting the dinner table AND some with those dimes.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Averaging the most assists doesn't make you the better passer. Most of that stuff is dependent on role anyway (Oscar played PG many seasons, by the way).

I'll agree with Gino being the best passer of the bunch, but Wade isn't better than Jordan. Not visibly. Not statistically (when both got to play point). Not anything. Every 'nice pass' Wade has had, Jordan did it better. Just watch the video I linked.

MJ is setting the dinner table AND some with those dimes.[/QUOTE]

I don't have to. Wade capability wise, aesthetically, and statistically is the better passer.

I'd garner to say that even Kobe has an edge on Jordan.

[QUOTE=plowking]I don't have to. Wade capability wise, aesthetically, and statistically is the better passer.

I'd garner to say that even Kobe has an edge on Jordan.[/QUOTE]

Not even remotely close. At least to anybody that watched both of them play.

Ditto for Kobe.

Post some of Wade's best passes and I'll gladly counter them with Jordan's :confusedshrug:

This kind of thread is why Im' basically leaving ISH for realgm. I actually want ot talk about basketball...not just humor and "argue" with idiots.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Not even remotely close. At least to anybody that watched both of them play.

Ditto for Kobe.

Post some of Wade's best passes and I'll gladly counter them with Jordan's :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

I don't need to. You can see Wade throwing inch perfect passes to Bron from 80-90 feet away. Probably one of the best oop passers of all time along with Kidd and Miller. At their peaks Wade was consistently getting more assists, and even when both were on the downward trend of their careers, once again Wade averaged more assists.

[QUOTE=plowking]I don't need to. You can see Wade throwing inch perfect passes to Bron from 80-90 feet away. Probably one of the best oop passers of all time along with Kidd and Miller. At their peaks Wade was consistently getting more assists, and even when both were on the downward trend of their careers, once again Wade averaged more assists.[/QUOTE]

Instead of hearing you ramble, and repeat the same thing, it would be great to see some actual video evidence for what you claim.

Don't stunt, and post the gifs :whatever:

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Instead of hearing you ramble, and repeat the same thing, it would be great to see some actual video evidence for what you claim.

Don't stunt, and post the gifs :whatever:[/QUOTE]

I would, but you're an idiot, so I won't.

I don't feel the need to prove anything to you, considering you've proven yourself on here to be an idiot. You're known as the guy who doesn't know what a double team is on here. :oldlol:

What will happen if I post the gifs/videos? You'll say, "nah, not close", and we'll both continue on our way. Me being right, and you being ignorant and stupid as always. :whatever:

[QUOTE=plowking]I would, but you're an idiot, so I won't.

I don't feel the need to prove anything to you, considering you've proven yourself on here to be an idiot. You're known as the guy who doesn't know what a double team is on here. :oldlol:

What will happen if I post the gifs/videos? You'll say, "nah, not close", and we'll both continue on our way. Me being right, and you being ignorant and stupid as always. :whatever:[/QUOTE]

Am I? That's news to me. :confusedshrug:

Quit being a pansy and just post the gifs. Not like you have anything better to do with your time; look at that post count. :eek:

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Am I? That's news to me. :confusedshrug:

Quit being a pansy and just post the gifs. Not like you have anything better to do with your time; look at that post count. :eek:[/QUOTE]

Most racked up in high school and university first year in game threads. What is your excuse? :oldlol:

If he focused on getting 11 assists a game with a similar situation to MJ, when he was placed at point? Sure. He was as gifted of a playmaker as any forward in NBA history...averaging 21/8/7 playing as a 2nd option along MJ at his prime...now put Pippen on his own squad with a bunch of shooters and a big man that can score on the inside, there's no doubt he could have accomplished such a feat on a medicore team...

[QUOTE=plowking]Most racked up in high school and university first year in game threads. What is your excuse? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

You were spending most of your time on message boards...during highschool? :oldlol: I always figured you for a nerd (that uptight persona of yours kinda gives it away)

Holla when you're ready to post something worth noting. K?

[QUOTE=ImKobe]If he focused on getting 11 assists a game with a similar situation to MJ, when he was placed at point? Sure. He was as gifted of a playmaker as any forward in NBA history...averaging 21/8/7 playing as a 2nd option along MJ at his prime...now [B]put Pippen on his own squad with a bunch of shooters and a big man that can score on the inside[/B], there's no doubt he could have accomplished such a feat on a medicore team...[/QUOTE]

Pippen went at Rockets (32 years old) with Hakeem and he was averaging 5.9 apg on 40 minutes of play.

Pippen was the perfect sidekick to Jordan. And both players benefited from that. Sadly he is either overated or underated depending on posters agenda.
I have watched hundreds of the Bulls games and although Pippen was very versatile I doubt he could do better job at PG then Jordan (even Kobe). Pippen played his natural position his whole career.
As I stated earlier in the thread Tony Kukoc could do the playmaking with greater success, but it would be hardly recognized by US fans, as they probably never watched him doing it. For them he would remain the talanted offensive player with great court vision, being their best player from the bench and always in the shadow of MJ, Pippen and Rodman.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]You were spending most of your time on message boards...during highschool? :oldlol: I always figured you for a nerd (that uptight persona of yours kinda gives it away)

Holla when you're ready to post something worth noting. K?[/QUOTE]

Yep. The guy playing state level basketball was a basketball nerd. Just a 6'3 nerd who could windmill at 17. I'm sure you were doing cooler things. :oldlol: