Michael Jordan in Today's League: Better or Worse?

[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]We saw team ball when MJ left and they won 60 games without him.

Unfortunately for LeBron he was surrounded by the likes of Matthew Dellavedova, Iman Shumpert, JR smith, Tristan Thompson, and Tim Mozgov.

:oldlol:

You try playing team ball with these dudes against the best offense/defense in the league and they get bodied by 30 in every game.

LeBron winning 2 games against Golden State is more impressive than most of Jordans rings. And that's just reality.

I know you Jordan stans don't do well with context though, so carry on with your lame outdated agenda...:sleeping[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.supersportscenter.com/images/product/medium/2528.jpg[/IMG]

There should be 2 pictures of this. Thanks a lot, LeObama :mad:

Same, but different. His game from his era would work but not the same way. If he embraced this era's style though maybe even better.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Bro what iare you talking about? They didn't change the rules in 2011 and that same Wade destroyed Boston in the playoffs in 2010. Their out of this world defense didn't work then huh?[/QUOTE]

Did I say rules were changed in 11?

He was placed in the most perfect situation both a great team and weak competition. I think placed in this era, he would be a demar derozan with slightly better shooting.

so something like 25/5/5 on 47% shooting.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]worse


this is a shooters league

the paint is clogged

PGs are the main ball dominant guys now

team flow and less isolation

less coaches willing to allow mid range game


back to the basket post up games are obsolete



jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him

nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring[/QUOTE]


This fool here.


[QUOTE]this is a shooters league[/QUOTE]

And MJ wasn't a shooter?

[QUOTE]the paint is clogged[/QUOTE]

Are you serious? Centers could camp in the paint back in MJ's day. Now, the 3-second defensive rule eliminates that, making it easier for wing players to penetrate. MJ would feast on that shit.

[QUOTE]PGs are the main ball dominant guys now[/QUOTE]

So?

[QUOTE]team flow and less isolation[/QUOTE]

Not with ball dominant guys like Lebron and CP3

[QUOTE]less coaches willing to allow mid range game[/QUOTE]

Because players can't shoot for shit today.

[QUOTE]back to the basket post up games are obsolete[/QUOTE]

Which says a lot about how shit has deteriorated in the League.

[QUOTE]jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him[/QUOTE]

MJ was smart enough to not have to rely on jacking up 3's, unlike Kobe and many of today's wing players. And I don't see how being unselfish hurts MJ.

[QUOTE]nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring[/QUOTE]

You don't allow the GOAT to do anything. He just does. And he wins.

And like MJ said years ago, scoring is easy--8 points a quarter and he's at his average (during his prime years).

[QUOTE=dhsilv]Did I say rules were changed in 11?[/QUOTE]
The way your talking made it seem 09 wade would struggle in 2011 just two years later. It makes no freaking sense.

[QUOTE=Lebronxrings]He was placed in the most perfect situation both a great team and [B]weak competition[/B]. I think placed in this era, he would be a demar derozan with slightly better shooting.

so something like 25/5/5 on 47% shooting.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/image3.png[/IMG]

And you wonder why it took a miracle from Jesus himself for your boy to not be 1/6 vs the West. The one time in the past 15 years the East had a win percentage higher than the mid 30s-low 40s, Bron Bron's 61 win team couldn't get out of 2nd round and he fled to Wade County.

Put any of Bron's teams in an East where the win% is in the upper 50s AKA the second 3-peat era and Bron gets clowned 2010 Celtics style every year barring another miracle. Dude would be bouncing from team to team so much, you'd think the motherf*cker was a 6'8" 260 lbs pinball.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Prime Wade from '05-'06: 27 PPG, 20 FGA, 2.3 3A/gm (11.5% of his shots), 48.7% FG *Championship, 2006 Finals MVP*

Past prime MJ from '95-'98: 30 PPG, 23 FGA, 2.8 3A/gm (c. 12% of his shots), 48.2% FG *3 Championships, '96, '97, '98 Finals MVP*[/quote]

Teams today shoot even more threes than they did in 2006. ~600 more to be exact.

Less midrange shots too.

I'm not saying Jordan would chuck threes. What I'm saying is Jordan actually had a 3 ball, and would have implemented it more so in today's game. That along with his bread and butter, midrange level, would be exploited less.

Again, I think dude still scores the same (volume). Probably even more, but he does so while being marginally less effective.

[quote]Yeah, KD is a great scorer and all but he's not on Jordan's level FOH. Dude gets muscled out of the post by the 6'4" Tony Allen for f*ckssake. Hell of a 3 and FT shooter though. That always helps the ole TS%. Dude barely eeked out one of his scoring titles against a washed up Kobe.[/quote]

Too soon? You're probably right. Dude needs to hit the weights, and be a little more aggressive in the playoffs. That series vs Memphis was definitely the low point of his career.

That MVP season doe? His take over ability was damn near MJ level.

Admit it, Donnie.

[QUOTE=catch24]Teams today shoot even more threes than they did in 2006. ~600 more to be exact.

Less midrange shots too.

I'm not saying Jordan would chuck threes. What I'm saying is Jordan actually had a 3 ball, and would have implemented it more so in today's game. That along with his bread and butter, midrange level, would be exploited less.

Again, I think dude still scores the same (volume). Probably even more, but he does so while being marginally less effective.



Too soon? You're probably right. Dude needs to hit the weights, and be a little more aggressive in the playoffs. That series vs Memphis was definitely the low point of his career.

That MVP season doe? His take over ability was damn near MJ level.

Admit it, Donnie.[/QUOTE]
Durant is great but he actually an example of someone who i think would slightly struggle with handchecking physical defense.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Mj was playing in a team ball. Bro he wasn't holding the ball like LJ. Go look at the Bulls they averaged 20+ asts[/QUOTE]

Jordan has the highest usage ever. The ball always went through him, or was always heading to him in one way or another.

The Heat didn't have Bron hold the ball up either. The team set records for most passes in a game averaged throughout a season before the Spurs broke it the following season.

You Jordan fanboys are fascinated with bringing up Lebron any time you can.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59][IMG]https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/image3.png[/IMG]

And you wonder why it took a miracle from Jesus himself for your boy to not be 1/6 vs the West. The one time in the past 15 years the East had a win percentage higher than the mid 30s-low 40s, Bron Bron's 61 win team couldn't get out of 2nd round and he fled to Wade County.

Put any of Bron's teams in an East where the win% is in the upper 50s AKA the second 3-peat era and Bron gets clowned 2010 Celtics style every year barring another miracle. Dude would be bouncing from team to team so much, you'd think the motherf*cker was a 6'8" 260 lbs pinball.[/QUOTE]

You do realize that chart has very little to do with what you're trying to portray, right?

It is like saying Porsche's are bad cars because of their stereo system.

This East isn't close to being the weakest it has ever been. Fact is, Jordan was making the playoffs with a 30 win team. No other way to cut it other than making the playoffs with 30 wins, makes it a weaker conference than teams with 40 wins making it.

[QUOTE=catch24]Teams today shoot even more threes than they did in 2006. ~600 more to be exact.

Less midrange shots too.

I'm not saying Jordan would chuck threes. What I'm saying is Jordan actually had a 3 ball, and would have implemented it more so in today's game. That along with his bread and butter, midrange level, would be exploited less.[/QUOTE]

Teams shot 6 3s/gm in 1990, by 1998 off the top of my head it was around 17 or 18 3s/gm. Didn't mean shit to the GOAT. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And I already showed you how a broken down Wade averaged 22 PPG on 50.4% FG from 2010-present taking only 1.5 3s/gm.

Again- no one is being force to chuck 3s against their will. The only difference for MJ would be him getting a lot more room to operate on the perimeter with the removal of handchecking and a sharp increase in his FTr and more open lanes thanks to the 3-sec rule.

I can't reiterate this enough- dudes that were drafted and played in Jordan era (ie Kobe/Iverson) didn't have their career scoring highs until after the mid 00s rule changes. Now why on Earth would the GOAT perimeter scorer buck that league wide trend and have worse production.

That doesn't even make a little bit of sense

[QUOTE]Again, I think dude still scores the same (volume). Probably even more, but he does so while being marginally less effective. [/QUOTE]

There's absolutely no reason to believe his efficiency would go down. None whatsoever. You just saying it doesn't count for jack. He takes the same # of 3s he always did, AKA what Parker/Wade do now.

[QUOTE]Too soon? You're probably right. Dude needs to hit the weights, and be a little more aggressive in the playoffs. That series vs Memphis was definitely the low point of his career.[/QUOTE]

8 years after he couldn't do a single rep of 185 lbs on the bench press, he's getting bullied by a guy half his size with his own city calling him Mr. Unreliable.

But he = GOAT scorer doe.

:durantunimpressed:

[QUOTE]That MVP season doe? His take over ability was damn near MJ level.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/b/6a/b6ad3716-d160-11e3-9fad-0017a43b2370/5362967dc536b.image.jpg[/IMG]

Can you imagine MJ in one of his MVP/scoring title seasons getting bossed around on the court by someone 5'9"... in the playoffs :roll:

And his own teammate just won the scoring title a season after KD did. Jordan never had offensive help like that. Prime Pippen = 22 PPG. We haven't even seen Durant's sidekick's prime but already he has a scoring title to his name.

[QUOTE]Admit it, Donnie.[/QUOTE]

F*ck you. I'm going to sleep :D

To be fair to Durant, Payton shut down Jordan in 96 far worse than Allen did Durant.

Guess it just depends on whether you think MJ shoots more threes NOW than when he played in the 80s & 90s. I'd lean toward more considering dude actually had the range, and post 1990, shot it with more frequency than Wade and Parker ever did.

To each his own though.

MJ = GOAT

[QUOTE=catch24]Yes or no will suffice, but an explanation would be great too.

[B]I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.[/B][/QUOTE]

I think most fail to contextualize the fact that Michael Jordan grew up [i]without[/i] the institutionalization of three-pointers, and he therefore didn't naturally develop that proficiency moving into his formative years in the NBA.

Yes, the three-point line was instituted in the NBA 5 years before Jordan's entrance into the league, but he never needed to use it in college; as such, he was rather ingrained within the mid-range radius of the game, and it took a while for him—alongside the rest of the league—to really espouse it as an indispensable skill. It wasn't until 1989-90 that the league average even cracked 33% three-point-shooting, and Jordan averaged 35.9% three-point-shooting as a Bull since that season—on par with the league average today!

Had Jordan grown up in the modern-age basketball culture that had already conventionalized three-point-shooting and mastered it from a younger, more rootly formative age, he most likely would've developed it as apart of his repertoire and thus would be in better shape to maintain efficience with a more three-point-happy approach.

[QUOTE=plowking]Jordan has the highest usage ever. The ball always went through him, or was always heading to him in one way or another.

The Heat didn't have Bron hold the ball up either. The team set records for most passes in a game averaged throughout a season before the Spurs broke it the following season.

You Jordan fanboys are fascinated with bringing up Lebron any time you can.[/QUOTE]
Usage isn't how long you hold the ball. Its just adds up all the things u do. I never said the Heat held the ball. I was replying to someone who said Mj was a ball stopper\iso player. The Bulls routinely averaged 20+ asts. Yea the offense went through Mj

[QUOTE=catch24]Guess it just depends on whether you think MJ shoots more threes NOW than when he played in the 80s & 90s. I'd lean toward more considering dude actually had the range, and post 1990, shot it with more frequency than Wade and Parker ever did.

To each his own though.

MJ = GOAT[/QUOTE]
He wouldn't need too. Go look at how much the league zhot in 88 to 98. He still was dominating even tho the league was shooting way more 3s

[QUOTE=plowking]To be fair to Durant, Payton shut down Jordan in 96 far worse than Allen did Durant.[/QUOTE]
Durant averaged 30/10 for the series. LOL.

He had one terrible game that brought his efficiency down, but don is a moron and is using newspaper articles for his arguments.

What happened after that article was released Don? Oh, that's right... Durant took a hot steamy pile of shit on Allen and the Grizz in games 6 and 7 to win the series.

Better. No contact, whistle everytime they touch one another.

[QUOTE=Vaniiiia]Durant averaged 30/10 for the series. LOL.

He had one terrible game that brought his efficiency down, but don is a moron and is using newspaper articles for his arguments.

What happened after that article was released Don? Oh, that's right... Durant took a hot steamy pile of shit on Allen and the Grizz in games 6 and 7 to win the series.[/QUOTE]

Game 6: 36/11

Game 7: 33/9

But he da choker doe

better - Jordan is a GOAT free throw shooter and he is so fast only way to stop him is becoming physical. His star power will give him all benefit calls you cant look at Jordan wrong cause he is the face of the league you will get fouls called. Jordan will score more 40+ games than anyone in the league and lebron would be easily considered #2 in league

[QUOTE=juju151111]Usage isn't how long you hold the ball. Its just adds up all the things u do. I never said the Heat held the ball. I was replying to someone who said Mj was a ball stopper\iso player. The Bulls routinely averaged 20+ asts. Yea the offense went through Mj[/QUOTE]

MJ was an iso player.

Why do people paint this in a negative light? You want the ball in your best players hands as much as possible. My point in replying to your post was that YOU in fact tried to paint it in a negative light, when it isn't.

Sometimes it is best to hold the ball for as long as you need, while other times swinging the ball constantly is the way to go.

To the poster in this thread who said players no longer average 32 or 33 points per game, do you realize that Kevin Durant averaged 32 points per game in 2014 and averaged nearly 35 points from Christmas until the end of the season in 2014 when he was MVP?

To answer the original question in this thread, Michael Jordan would be the same today as he was in the 80s and 90s. In some ways, he could be even more dangerous by surrounding him with even better three-point shooters ( yes, I am aware that the Chicago team did have some excellent three-point shooters) to help space the floor even more and the lack of hand checking/physicality on the perimeter would make some things easier.

Jordan would still average 30 points per game on a very high efficiency and would likely be the best player in the league. Anyone who says differently is fooling themselves.

[QUOTE=sportjames23]This fool here.




And MJ wasn't a shooter?
[/QUOTE]






No.

In the sense of shooting the ball, sure he's a shooter. Hell, we all are. But in the basketball sense? No man.:oldlol:

[QUOTE=plowking]MJ was an iso player.

Why do people paint this in a negative light? You want the ball in your best players hands as much as possible. My point in replying to your post was that YOU in fact tried to paint it in a negative light, when it isn't.

Sometimes it is best to hold the ball for as long as you need, while other times swinging the ball constantly is the way to go.[/QUOTE]

True, I don't get the hate on ISO's today. It is true mediocre talent ISO'ing too much and having bad results should be avoided, but that's usually teams using these players out of necessity and lack of talent. Great talent is usually great on ISO's, along with many other factors in the game like passing, spacing, off ball movement, etc... to throw many counters at the defense.

Imagine jordan getting calls like harden and kd... 60 ppg.

[QUOTE=Beastmode88]Imagine jordan getting calls like harden and kd... 60 ppg.[/QUOTE]
He'd never flail enough to get them.

[QUOTE=plowking]MJ was an iso player.

Why do people paint this in a negative light? You want the ball in your best players hands as much as possible. My point in replying to your post was that YOU in fact tried to paint it in a negative light, when it isn't.

Sometimes it is best to hold the ball for as long as you need, while other times swinging the ball constantly is the way to go.[/QUOTE]
You said he puts up slightly less points due to the emphasis on team play. Mj did what he did while his team averaged 20+ asts.

He would approach 40 ppg in today's weak ass league. This is the weakest the league has been since the 70s, defense is almost non existent on top of a low, low talent level.

Better . 15 ftm per night.

Similar. He could score whenever he wanted in either era.

Depends on the team to determine if he has similar success.

[QUOTE=miles berg]He would approach 40 ppl in today's weak ass league. This is the weakest the league has been since the 70s, defense is almost non existent.[/QUOTE]

This is hyperbolic garbage lol.

He wouldn't be worse. It's not as if his playstyle is one that wouldn't translate to today's game.

A three pointer isn't a huge boon to an on-ball offensive player's impact other than improving his efficiency (and MJ was already a beast in that regard). Off-ball for spacing reasons a three could be valuable, but consider some of the data we had last year on Wade's distraction and respect scores (gravity or whatnot). His man respected him a ton as a cutter. MJ's man wouldn't leave him open since he's a GOAT pull up vs drive threat before his first retirement (post up fadeaway heavy MJ was a different player, but that was an extremely high percentage shot).

Defensively without hand-checking it would be hard to play defense the same way for a lot of guys from the 80s/90s today, but MJ wasn't entirely dependent on it. He also had true guard quickness in the frame of a wing player, so he's going to stay in front of you, and you're not going to beat him off the dribble often. With improved defensive strategy/analytics today, you're giving Jordan additional knowledge, and you'd better bet he'd take advantage of it.

If you're going to judge somebody by his box score stats as better/worse, that's something else entirely. I don't know how MJ's box score would change, but it wouldn't make him a markedly different player if his per game numbers changed.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Every star perimeter player who was drafted in the mid 90s didn't have their career best scoring year until after the rule changes of the mid 00s. [B]That was no coincidence. MJ, a superior player to them all by a comfortable margin[/B], would not mysteriously and inexplicably buck that trend.

[B]Captain Marvel with James Harden's FTr has at least 1 40 PPG season.[/B][/quote]
Bingo.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]wyane Wade and Tony Parker, multiple champions/finals MVPs/scoring champion say hello. Their career 3s/gm in this era are identical to Jordan's in his. How much did not chucking 3s mindlessly hurt their efficiency? Check the $tats.[/QUOTE]
SERIOUSLY. Not shooting threes helps his efficiency and with a more open driving lanes due to spacing or defensive rules. Less physical contact ... prime / peak MJ is having a field day in the paint. Picture '93 Finals MJ for an entire season. 40 ppg seasons more than plausible.

Star players don't take as many shots today, because defenses are free to key up on one guy. He'd have less points, and probably more assists. He'd still be the best player in the league.

NO 40 POINT SEASON

[QUOTE=PJR]This is hyperbolic garbage lol.[/QUOTE]

Lol, no. I've been a hardcore fan for four decades. The league is at its lowest point since pre Magic/Bird days. Exactly 2 stars in this league today. No depth. Guys like Harrison Barnes and Tristan Thompson being offered star money because the league is so weak.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]Star players don't take as many shots today, because defenses are free to key up on one guy. He'd have less points, and probably more assists. He'd still be the best player in the league.

NO 40 POINT SEASON[/QUOTE]
Harden and Westbrook just both put up 25 ppg to 27 ppg almost exclusively on free throws and drives. No mid range, post game or truly refined scoring skill. And MJ would score less? Um, OK kid. Prisoner of the moment this kid.

[QUOTE=miles berg]Lol, no. I've been a hardcore fan for four decades. The league is at its lowest point since pre Magic/Bird days. Exactly 2 stars in this league today. No depth. Guys like Harrison Barnes and Tristan Thompson being offered star money because the league is so weak.[/QUOTE]

it's definitely not at its lowest point. you've had some of the greatest performances happen within the past 10-15yrs or so:

Kobe's 81
Game 6 comeback and the most clutch shot in a Finals by Jesus
TMac's 13 in 33sec
Arguably the greatest shooters to exist...initially Ray, and now Steph Curry
Shaq as the MDE to step foot in the NBA
unprecedented 50 win seasons and consistent tenure from the Spurs to date
Lebron's 4th qtr against the Pistons
etc.

as for the money being tossed around...that's apart of the business aspect today. money is readily available with such deals like the TV rights and the players now hold the power in negotiations rather than the solely greedy owners from the "golden days". both the owners and players benefit now, a more level field of compensation.

ultimately, it seems you're just reluctant to accept the evolution of the game today :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el][B]Star players don't take as many shots today, because defenses are free to key up on one guy[/B]. He'd have less points, and probably more assists. He'd still be the best player in the league.

NO 40 POINT SEASON[/QUOTE]

:biggums:

It's almost like you dudes are completely oblivious to anything that happened in the NBA pre 2012. There are no Durant Rules or Harden Rules being run.

And KD averaged 32 PPG on 21 FGA in his last full, healthy year. That was on a team that made the WCF. Imagine if he had been on a shitty team without the 2nd best scorer in the league as a teammate. :eek:

[QUOTE]Harden and Westbrook just both put up 25 ppg to 27 ppg almost exclusively on free throws and drives. No mid range, post game or truly refined scoring skill. And MJ would score less? Um, OK kid. Prisoner of the moment this kid.[/QUOTE]

I'm saying... Westbrook and Harden leading the league in scoring (with KD out) would be like Pippen and Kukoc leading the league in scoring. :oldlol:

When Jordan averaged 37 PPG, the next closest guy was Dominique at 29 PPG. He had a full 8 PPG gap between himself and the #2 scorer in the league. Hell, even Durant had a 5 PPG gap between himself and the #2 guy Melo in his last scoring championship season.

Just because run-of-the-mill stars don't/can't do something, doesn't mean the GOAT can't either. The truly great ones always separate themselves from the pack.

I think MJ would put up about 32-34 ppg, no more no less. I do believe he could EASILY average 40 ppg if he wanted, but that wouldn't be optimal.

What I do think is that he would average a lot more assists, because MJ was basically also the GOAT at perimeter penetration. People tend to forget that MJ scored most his points on penetrations during the first 3 peat and this was with full handchecking and paint camping.

MJ today without handchecking is going to be insane to cover. Look at how Kyrie gets open all the time. Who is going to guard MJ and his speed?

MJ is going to get into the paint very easily and then it's going to be open, no one under the basket. Essentially he will make quick first step, one dribble and then two-leg takeoff from around the dotted circle in the paint.

If someone then moves over to try to help defense, he will get a lot of 'Lebron' assists.

MJ would be dunking so much it would be an even bigger show. He would probably get 3-5 dunks a game.

In short I am guessing he averages 33ppg 8apg 7rpg 3spg 1.5bpg on 50+FG%