Jordan is good for an extra two wins over an 82 game season :applause:
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Jordan is good for an extra two wins over an 82 game season :applause:
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]The thing is though...the Hawks were swept by the Eastern power last year.
The Bulls had a very real chance of winning.[/QUOTE]
they lost in the second round and they were lucky to make it as far as they did. did anyone really think they were title contenders at the time?
[QUOTE=3ball][B]They were eliminated in 2nd Round without Jordan, which is an utterly massive drop-off from being a 3-peat dynasty.
[/B]
Of course, you probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?... For example, the Bulls could've won 55 games without MJ in 1991 right?
Obviously not, which means the journey was [I]an accumulative one[/I] - the acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was because of the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.[/QUOTE]
Wow, how did they make it to the second round if all of Jordan's teammates were terrible? Was it a weak era? What's the deal here?
[QUOTE=oarabbus]Wow, how did they make it to the second round if all of Jordan's teammates were terrible? Was it a weak era? What's the deal here?[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :cheers:
[QUOTE=oarabbus]Wow, how did they make it to the second round if all of Jordan's teammates were terrible? Was it a weak era? What's the deal here?[/QUOTE]
3-peat, GOAT chemistry
you guys are incompetant
[QUOTE=sundizz]1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.
2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.
3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.
4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.
5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.
6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%
7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.
And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.
Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?[/QUOTE]
You forgot GOAT coach Phil Jackson.
[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]:roll:
The Bulls had won 2 straight Finals and had made 2 straight ECF trips in '89 and '90. They coasted a bit more in the Regular Season and won 57 Games. Plus in '94 they added Kukoc and Kerr.
Also, if Kukoc misses the Game-Winner in Game 3 then the Bulls more then likely get swept or finished off in 5. If that misses they may not have even been in position to "get screwed".
So why did he put up 35/7/7 on 52% shooting in the 80s Playoffs before Phil and the "GOAT system"?[/QUOTE]
Your obsession with Lebron is scary. His help was abysmal, get over it.
Wade couldn't even get outbid the 1st round when he had bad help.:oldlol:
The Bulls also lost players. I don't care for your stupid hypothetical. Point is the Bulls were one screw job from the ECF and only won 2 less games without the GOAT.
You're reading comprehension is low. I didn't say anything about stats. I said his IMPACT was overrated. That is shown by 1-9 before the GOAT coach and stacked team.
[QUOTE=3ball]Lebron wasn't the only guy that left - 5 other guys also left, including 3 starters: Mo Williams (injury), Varajao (injury), Delonte, Shaq and Zydrunas also left.
Otoh, the Bulls only lost Jordan in 1994 - and their ORtg fell from the 113-115 range during 1991-1993 (#1 all-time), to 106.1 in 1994 (14th in league).
And keep in mind that Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs teams had HORRIFIC chemistry, which resulted in being upset by a lower seed in the playoffs each year.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]So Lebron's departure not only removed his talent, but left the team mired in horrific playing style and chemistry[/COLOR][/I].
Otoh, when Jordan left the Bulls, he left the team with THREE-PEAT, GOAT chemistry... New fans simply can't process the concept of chemistry... It isn't tangible enough for them - however, chemistry is THE reason more talented teams get upset by less talented teams, which never happened to MJ (but happened to Lebron a lot).[/QUOTE]
You mentioning 37 yo Shaq and 35 yo Big Z whom average 5 PPG the next year and both retired after that next year shows how shook you are.
The Heat also had a drop in PPG and ORTG after Lebron left and it has never been as high since, what your excuse for that.
Chemistry doesn't get you 2 less win after losing the GOAT, Talent and a great coach does.
.
[COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR][B][COLOR="darkRed"]Jordan's jumpshot was better than Curry's from inside 20 feet:[/COLOR][/B]
[B][COLOR="White"].....................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]MJ 1997[/url][COLOR="White"]...................[/COLOR][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]Curry 2015[/Url][/B][COLOR="White"]............ [/COLOR][b][url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/]Curry 2016[/url][/B] [size="1"][B][COLOR="DarkGreen"][I]<---- links to nba.com data[/I][/COLOR][/B][/size]
[B]5-9 ft[/B].......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 47.2%, 53 fga
[B]10-14 ft[/B]....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 54.8%, 42 fga
[B]15-19 ft[/B]....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 39.7%, 78 fga
[b]Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)[/b]
JORDAN 1997: 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2015: 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 2016: 45.1%, 82 fga
LEBRON 2015: 37.0%, 343 fga
LEBRON 2016: 31.9%, 119 fga
[I][COLOR="navy"]Anyone who disagrees that MJ is a better shooter than Curry inside 20 feet must explain why Curry shoots far worse percentage inside 20 feet on one-fifth the volume.. [/COLOR][/I]
.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
You mentioning 37 yo Shaq and 35 yo Big Z whom average 5 PPG the next year and both retired after that next year shows how shook you are.
[/quote]
I mentioned Mo Williams, Varejao and Delonte too, since they ALSO left the Cavs in 2011 - but you ignore these major pieces because you're biased and in the tank for Lebeta.
Also, Shaq was a major piece - he averaged 12/7 with 1.5 blocks for the Cavs in 2010.. That's way better than Cartwright.
[quote=Bankaii]
Chemistry doesn't get you 2 less win after losing the GOAT, Talent and a great coach does.
[/QUOTE]
[I]Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was due to the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.[/I]
Also, you probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?... For example, the Bulls could've won 55 games without MJ in 1991 right?
Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
The Heat also had a drop in PPG and ORTG after Lebron left and it has never been as high since, what your excuse for that.
[/QUOTE]
I don't need an excuse for that one - the Heat's drop-off offensively wasn't near as much as the Bulls dropped off without Jordan.
[quote=Bankaii]
Chemistry doesn't get you 2nd Round after losing the GOAT, Talent and a great coach does.
[/QUOTE]
The Bulls 3-peated with Jordan... When he left, they were a 2nd Round team.
Are you ****ing retarded or do you understand how big of a gap that is?
Do you know how many ordinary, pedestrian teams make the 2nd Round??.. It's not an accomplishment..
3-peat, goat chemistry gets you to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened.
.
[QUOTE=3ball]I mentioned Mo Williams, Varejao and Delonte too, since they ALSO left the Cavs in 2011 - but you ignore these major pieces because you're biased and in the tank for Lebeta.
Also, Shaq was a major piece - he averaged 12/7 with 1.5 blocks for the Cavs in 2010.. That's way better than Cartwright.[/QUOTE]
Andy was averaging 9 points in 2010, and 9 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Mo was averaging 16 points in 2010, and 13 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Delonte was averaging 9 points in 2010.
Outside of Mo you're seriously nitpicking role player numbers? You also are significantly excluding the addition of Baron Davis and Ramon Sessions, both double digit scorers, along with increased production of Boobie Gibson, Jamison, and Hickson to cover these players.
Nonetheless, losing role players and injuries in the middle of the season shouldn't account from them becoming the 2nd last offensive team in the league.
Even after additions of Kyrie, Waiters, TT, etc the team was never even at league average. But you slurp Jordan so hard you would never admit Lebron had a all time great impact.
[QUOTE=3ball][I]Every championship Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer the game's ever seen.. So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had a bunch of talented scorers, it was due to the 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and mental ability accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.[/I]
Also, you probably think the Bulls could've won 55 games and made the 2nd Round in ANY season without MJ, not just 1994, right?... For example, the Bulls could've won 55 games without MJ in 1991 right?
Obviously not, which means the journey was an accumulative one - the acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994.. MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.[/QUOTE]
Nothing you say is a fact 3ball, is always 90% conjecture. MJ scored a lot because he shot a lot. That's it. When he left the system allowed talented players to increase production and still be a solid team.
And I never said that quit making shit up. The 1991 Bulls weren't as experienced, which plays just as much of a role as chemistry.
They made the 2nd round and 55 wins because they were talented within a GOAT system, get over it.
[QUOTE=3ball]I don't need an excuse for that one - the Heat's drop-off offensively wasn't near as much as the Bulls dropped off without Jordan.[/QUOTE]
The Heat went from 5th in the league to 21st you idiot, that's definitely worse than the Bulls going from 2nd to 14th. Can you count?
[QUOTE=3ball]The Bulls 3-peated with Jordan... When he left, they were a 2nd Round team.
Are you ****ing retarded or do you understand how big of a gap that is?
Do you know how many ordinary, pedestrian teams make the 2nd Round??.. It's not an accomplishment..
3-peat, goat chemistry gets you to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened.
.[/QUOTE]
The Heat went to every Finals and won back to back title when Lebron was there. After he left they missed the playoffs and the 5th seed right now.
Why could the Bulls remain a top 4 team while the Heat struggle to be top 10. Was Lebrons help that bad or Jordan's help that good, 3Bitch?
The 1994 Bullz came within literally a hair of beating the Knick's in the 2nd round.
Had they advanced they would have faced Indiana in the CFinal's who [B]they beat in 4/5 reg-season meetings[/B].
So... very, very good chance they would have made the Final's that year had they gotten by NYK.
Then in the Final's they would have faced a Rocket team they beat in 1/2 reg-season meetings.
Pippen didn't play in the one loss and they still almost won.
Maybe they don't beat Hakeem but making the Finals was clearly a strong possibility for that team and shows they were a legit contender.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]Andy was averaging 9 points in 2010, and 9 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Mo was averaging 16 points in 2010, and 13 in 2011 before he got hurt.
Delonte was averaging 9 points in 2010.
Outside of Mo you're seriously nitpicking role player numbers? You also are significantly excluding the addition of Baron Davis and Ramon Sessions, both double digit scorers, along with increased production of Boobie Gibson, Jamison, and Hickson to cover these players.
Nonetheless, losing role players and injuries in the middle of the season shouldn't account from them becoming the 2nd last offensive team in the league.
Even after additions of Kyrie, Waiters, TT, etc the team was never even at league average. But you slurp Jordan so hard you would never admit Lebron had a all time great impact.
Nothing you say is a fact 3ball, is always 90% conjecture. MJ scored a lot because he shot a lot. That's it. When he left the system allowed talented players to increase production and still be a solid team.
And I never said that quit making shit up. The 1991 Bulls weren't as experienced, which plays just as much of a role as chemistry.
They made the 2nd round and 55 wins because they were talented within a GOAT system, get over it.
The Heat went from 5th in the league to 21st you idiot, that's definitely worse than the Bulls going from 2nd to 14th. Can you count?
The Heat went to every Finals and won back to back title when Lebron was there. After he left they missed the playoffs and the 5th seed right now.
Why could the Bulls remain a top 4 team while the Heat struggle to be top 10. Was Lebrons help that bad or Jordan's help that good, 3Bitch?[/QUOTE]
3ball got his ass handed to him with this one
[QUOTE=Bankaii]Your obsession with Lebron is scary. His help was abysmal, get over it.
Wade couldn't even get outbid the 1st round when he had bad help.:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
For sure obsessed with Bron. All my threads are dedicated to him and a good amount of my posts, excellent deduction :applause:
No his help wasn't. From '06-'10 he had a great defense and good rebounding team. They were competitive even when Lebron wasn't playing great in Playoff Series.
[QUOTE]The Bulls also lost players. I don't care for your stupid hypothetical. Point is the Bulls were one screw job from the ECF and only won 2 less games without the GOAT.[/QUOTE]
What players outside of Jordan?
Your whole last sentence lacks context which I posted about earlier. I should've expected you to just deflect though, what else is new?
[QUOTE]You're reading comprehension is low. I didn't say anything about stats. I said his IMPACT was overrated. That is shown by 1-9 before the GOAT coach and stacked team.[/QUOTE]
Your post said his scoring was impressive because he had offensive freedom in the GOAT system. I responded showing his Playoff numbers before Phil & the GOAT system and asked why did he put those numbers if the GOAT system made his scoring impressive? You don't even know what the f*ck your posting, don't talk about my reading comprehension you moron.
[QUOTE=3ball]Harper was garbage... the same way mitch richmond was for the lakers... it happens to guys.. they get old.[/QUOTE]
He came off a 20/6/5 season prior to joining the Bulls...
All that changed on the Bulls was that he was used as one of the primary defenders.
Jordan literally had the ability to sit and rest on the worst opposing player on defense, so he could just have all his energy for offense.
[QUOTE=3ball]
Are you ****ing retarded
.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dklv2XToGx0/hqdefault.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
Nonetheless, losing role players and injuries in the middle of the season shouldn't account from [B]the 2011 Cavs becoming the 2nd last offensive team in the league.[/B]
[/quote]
The 2011 Cavs lost literally half their team - they lost 4 starters (Mo Williams, Shaq, Lebron, Antawn Jamison), plus various other 25+ mpg players (Delonte, Varejao, Zydrunas) - this would cause any team's ORtg to be horrible.
This isn't remarkable at all - it's standard... When a team loses 4 starters AND 3 other role players - literally half their team - they will fall to the bottom.. So there's no need to be amazed bud.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
MJ scored a lot because he shot a lot.
[/quote]
This is easily disproven by simple stats - Jordan was more efficient than Lebron, Kobe, and Wade in FG%, TS%, and ORtg - that's all the efficiency measures.
If Lebron or Kobe could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at higher volume:
[SIZE="1"][U]Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:[/U]
JORDAN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. [COLOR="green"]32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg[/COLOR]
LEBRON:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg[/COLOR]
KOBE:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg[/COLOR]
WADE:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg[/COLOR][/size]
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
When MJ left the system, it allowed players to [B][COLOR="Red"]increase production[/COLOR][/B] and still be a solid team.
[/QUOTE]
Again, this is easily disproven by stats.. When Jordan left in 1994, Pippen's stats didn't improve from his highs alongside Jordan:
[I]Pippen 1992[/I]: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. [COLOR="Navy"][I]7.0 apg[/I][/COLOR].. 50.6 fg
[I]Pippen 1994[/I]: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]5.6 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 49.1 fg
Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..
So your dead wrong that when MJ left, everyone's stats went up - that's complete bullshit.. Instead, it's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
The 1991 Bulls weren't as experienced, which plays just as much of a role as chemistry.
[/QUOTE]
You must be a teenager to say something so stupid - experience is part of chemistry.
And since you agree that the 1991 Bulls couldn't have won 55 without MJ, you concede the journey was [I]accumulative[/i] - the gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..
MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
They made the 2nd round and 55 wins [B][COLOR="Red"]because they were talented[/COLOR][/B] within a GOAT system, get over it.
[/QUOTE]
We know for a fact that the Bulls supporting cast wasn't talented because they needed MJ to score a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever, while also assisting on the highest proportion of teammate field goals (team leader in assist % every year) and playing goat-level defense.
MJ's goat scoring load included 50% of the Bulls' 4th quarter points in the 1997 and 1998 playoffs (during the time he was on the floor).. Compare that to Lebron's 14% to 35% of his team's 4th quarter points - these are [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376]well-documented statistical facts[/url] that show Lebron is nowhere near carrying the load MJ did.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
The Heat went from 5th in the league to 21st you idiot, that's definitely worse than the Bulls going from 2nd to 14th. Can you count?
[/QUOTE]
Wade and Bosh were hurt half the year.. It's amazing that you could overlook this.
Apparently, you'll say ANYTHING and overlook the obvious points that refute what you want to believe.. i.e. Wade/Bosh injuries.. Jordan's superior efficiency.. Pippen/Grant's unchanged stats when Jordan left..
I mean, it's remarkable how wrong you are on virtually everything.. and it's due to your blind bias and penchant for liking Lebron's rigid, bumbling, unskilled game (at least compared to MJ)
[quote=Bankaii]
Why could the Bulls remain a top 4 team while the Heat struggle to be top 10. Was Lebrons help that bad or Jordan's help that good, 3Bitch?
[/QUOTE]
The 2014 Heat were a FAR worse team than the 1993 Bulls, as the 2014 Finals demonstrated.
The 54-win Heat would've BARELY made the playoffs in the West, and accordingly, were beat worse than any team ever in the Finals.. The Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team.
So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?
3ball is the biggest bitch made trash I've seen on this forum, and that's including guys like Clippersfan that stroked it to Blake and Bledsoe on the daily. Jabbar start that ban thread again.
Lol 3ball making morons look stupid as always. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=3ball]fixed[/QUOTE]
They also passed the first round because the team they face was injured
[QUOTE=sundizz]1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.
2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.
3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.
4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.
5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.
6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%
7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.
And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.
Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?[/QUOTE]
You added guys that weren't that great in the first place and/or weren't that great when they played with Jordan. Why didn't you add George Gervin, Artis Gilmore, Robert Parish, Rip Hamilton, and Jerry Stackhouse while you were at it ? :oldlol:
By the way, funny how you paint this picture like Jordan played with all these guys at once. If you did the same thing for Kobe and Lebron, then Kobe must've played with Shaq, Gasol, Rice, and Payton with Howard, Malone, Nash and Rodman off the bench and Lebron had Bosh, Love, Wade, Kyrie starting alongside him all at once.
[QUOTE=plowking]Them getting Harper was the equivalent of the current Spurs or Cavs getting a Kevin Martin like player at his peak with Thabo Sefolosha like defense.
Absolutely ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
The f*ck? :oldlol:
[QUOTE=juju151111]They also passed the first round because the team they face was injured[/QUOTE]
Injuries are part of the game and either way they came within a hair of beating the Knick's and they beat Indiana in 4/5 games during the reg-season.
They could have easily made the Final's that year.
They were a legit contender that year.
[QUOTE=guy]The f*ck? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
The crazy part is that people like him actually believe that to be an apt comparison lol. He's FAR closer to Sefalosha's defense than prime Martin's offense in '96-'98.
[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]For sure obsessed with Bron. All my threads are dedicated to him and a good amount of my posts, excellent deduction :applause:[/QUOTE]
Glad you're aware. You follow me around and comment on the majority of my Lebron/Wade posts. We get it you don't like Lebron, but go troll a Lebron stan I honestly don't care.
[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]No his help wasn't. From '06-'10 he had a great defense and good rebounding team. They were competitive even when Lebron wasn't playing great in Playoff Series.[/QUOTE]
His help was so great that he either led or was tied in points, assists, rebounds(0.4 difference), blocks (0.2 difference), steals.
Quite the crap man, take Lebron off that team from 06-10 and replace him with anyone not name Kobe and they get rekted in the first round every year.
[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]What players outside of Jordan?
Your whole last sentence lacks context which I posted about earlier. I should've expected you to just deflect though, what else is new?[/QUOTE]
You stated their previous trips and that they gained Kukoc and Kerr. Longley was hurt most of the season and Kukoc and Kerr's combined >20 ppg scoring doesn't cover the GOAT scorer leaving.
Your post said his scoring was impressive because he had offensive freedom in the GOAT system. I responded showing his Playoff numbers before Phil & the GOAT system and asked why did he put those numbers if the GOAT system made his scoring impressive? You don't even know what the f*ck your posting, don't talk about my reading comprehension you moron.[/QUOTE]
Before I stated that I prefaced it with "his IMPACT was overrated", but I did say his scoring was good due to his freedom in the GOAT system. I didn't mention his scoring in his earlier years because he scored alot but it resulted in losing. But continue name calling as if you know me.
[QUOTE=3ball]The 2011 Cavs lost literally half their team - they lost 4 starters (Mo Williams, Shaq, Lebron, Antawn Jamison), plus various other 25+ mpg players (Delonte, Varejao, Zydrunas) - this would cause any team's ORtg to be horrible.[/QUOTE]
Jamison was on the 2011 team and healthy for a good portion of the season. And you were talking about scoring output which I addressed, not starters/25+ MPG player, quit moving the posts bro. You keep bringing up role players and players that retired the next year.
[QUOTE=3ball]This isn't remarkable at all - it's standard... When a team loses 4 starters AND 3 other role players - literally half their team - they will fall to the bottom.. So there's no need to be amazed bud.[/QUOTE]
Why did the team never even come close to that offensive production, even after attaining more players and getting multiple lottery picks?
[QUOTE=3ball]This is easily disproven by simple stats - Jordan was more efficient than Lebron, Kobe, and Wade in FG%, TS%, and ORtg - that's all the efficiency measures.
If Lebron or Kobe could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at higher volume:
[SIZE="1"][U]Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:[/U]
JORDAN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. [COLOR="green"]32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg[/COLOR]
LEBRON:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg[/COLOR]
KOBE:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg[/COLOR]
WADE:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg[/COLOR][/size][/QUOTE]
I've already destroyed this post multiple times, quit posting it.
The difference in their TS% is so little that it's insignificant. Also when you apply context, I won't even try because you don't know the meaning of context, they are equal efficiency wise.
Jordan scored more because he shot more. I already proved this to you, I'm not doing it again.
[QUOTE=3ball]Again, this is easily disproven by stats.. When Jordan left in 1994, Pippen's stats didn't improve from his highs alongside Jordan:
[I]Pippen 1992[/I]: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. [COLOR="Navy"][I]7.0 apg[/I][/COLOR].. 50.6 fg
[I]Pippen 1994[/I]: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]5.6 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 49.1 fg
Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..
So your dead wrong that when MJ left, everyone's stats went up - that's complete bullshit.. Instead, it's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan. [/QUOTE]
Grant and Pippen are the only two players on the team?
They play in an equal opportunity system, only Jordan had the freedom to shoot at his own pace.
They both had their career highs without Jordan, that's not a coincidence.
[QUOTE=3ball]You must be a teenager to say something so stupid - experience is part of chemistry.
And since you agree that the 1991 Bulls couldn't have won 55 without MJ, you concede the journey was [I]accumulative[/i] - the gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..
MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.[/QUOTE]
Experience can be gained without chemistry you dumbass. Pippen grew up with Jordan, he had no experience regardless of chemistry.
I don't agree to shit, and I don't do hypothetical situations.
MJ led them there before the 55 win season because Jordan was there since the beginning, there's no plausible way to know if they could have done i t in 1991. How stupid are you?
[QUOTE=3ball]We know for a fact that the Bulls supporting cast wasn't talented because they needed MJ to score a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever, while also assisting on the highest proportion of teammate field goals (team leader in assist % every year) and playing goat-level defense.
MJ's goat scoring load included 50% of the Bulls' 4th quarter points in the 1997 and 1998 playoffs (during the time he was on the floor).. Compare that to Lebron's 14% to 35% of his team's 4th quarter points - these are [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376]well-documented statistical facts[/url] that show Lebron is nowhere near carrying the load MJ did.[/QUOTE]
This is the same copy/paste bullcrap. MJ shot more.
[QUOTE=3ball]Wade and Bosh were hurt half the year.. It's amazing that you could overlook this.
Apparently, you'll say ANYTHING and overlook the obvious points that refute what you want to believe.. i.e. Wade/Bosh injuries.. Jordan's superior efficiency.. Pippen/Grant's unchanged stats when Jordan left..
I mean, it's remarkable how wrong you are on virtually everything.. and it's due to your blind bias and penchant for liking Lebron's rigid, bumbling, unskilled game (at least compared to MJ)[/QUOTE]
Bosh was hurt throughout the 2012 season.
Wade was hurt throughout the 2014 season and played more games in 2015 than in 2014.
Along with that in 2014 there were the additions of Whiteside, Deng, and Dragic.
Even with all this the Heat weren't even in the top 20 in ORTG.
And look at this year you idiot. Everyone is healthy and the added Green, yet their still 21st in ORTG, while the Cavs are 4th despite dealing with injuries a good portion of their roster (including their second best scorer).
I don't know if you're just retarded or won't admit it due to your love for MJ's nuts, but this is irrefutable evidence that Lebron's departure affected his teams much worse than Jordan's.
[QUOTE=3ball]The 2014 Heat were a FAR worse team than the 1993 Bulls, as the 2014 Finals demonstrated.
The 54-win Heat would've BARELY made the playoffs in the West, and accordingly, were beat worse than any team ever in the Finals.. The Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team.
So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?[/QUOTE]
the 2014 Heat had the 5th best record in the league and 4th in the West and were 20-10 vs the West, that's a 55-27 pace.
You're literally just making shit up now and saying irrational hypotheticals. Stop it.
[QUOTE=LootOP]BJ Armstrong? If he kadnt played with MJ, kids like you wouldnt even know he played in the league.[/QUOTE]
His allstar bid was without MJ...based on that it's reasonable to assume he might have had a better career without ever playing with MJ.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]The crazy part is that people like him actually believe that to be an apt comparison lol. He's FAR closer to Sefalosha's defense than prime Martin's offense in '96-'98.[/QUOTE]
In what way is it not. Martin was a 20ppg scorer in his prime, and Harper just came off a 20/6/5 season. More rounded than Martin ever was.
An absolutely beasty defender to begin with, and then you tell him to just fit in on offense, and give his absolute all on defense? Come on... lol.
Put Jimmy Butler on the Spurs and tell him to just focus on D again. :oldlol:
You sit here and pretend as if people can't remember the type of offensive threat Harper was prior to the Bulls.
[QUOTE=plowking]He came off a 20/6/5 season prior to joining the Bulls...
All that changed on the Bulls was that he was used as one of the primary defenders.
Jordan literally had the ability to sit and rest on the worst opposing player on defense, so he could just have all his energy for offense.[/QUOTE]
That must be why he picked up Miller in the 98 ECFs then. Genius:applause:
[QUOTE=Mr Feeny]That must be why he picked up Miller in the 98 ECFs then. Genius:applause:[/QUOTE]
Clearly exceptions to the rule are not allowed when making a general statement.
How have you just decided that picking up the second best shooting guard in basketball is "the exception"?
You haven't watched a minute of 90's basketball of if you believe that. This is precisely why everyone on here is laughing at you.
[QUOTE=3ball]3-peat, GOAT chemistry
you guys are [B]incompetant[/B][/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://i.imgflip.com/w9ulm.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=plowking]Jordan literally had the ability to sit and rest on the worst opposing player on defense, so he could just have all his energy for offense.[/QUOTE]
Give some examples. When was Harper doing all this work that allowed MJ to coast defensively? Cause I remember MJ defending Gary Payton, Allan Houston, Jerry Stackhouse, Nick Anderson, Steve Smith and Rod Strickland just in the late 90's alone. Not to mention chasing guys like Reggie Miller, Eddie Jones and Rex Chapman around screens and doing work against guys like Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway in spots. Doesn't seem like resting to me.
[QUOTE=Mr Feeny]That must be why he picked up Miller in the 98 ECFs then. Genius:applause:[/QUOTE]
"Mooove, bitch! Get out the way! Get out the way bitch! Get out the way!" [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbL5U3MUzWA[/url]
Biggest quarter of the season and MJ shut down Reggie Miller (0 points in the 4th). 35 years old and he put in work to save the season.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPlPNDXkIYk[/url]
Resting on defense... :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
Jamison was on the 2011 team and healthy for a good portion of the season.
[/quote]
Jamison missed 25 games and he was a starter.. Mo Williams (starter) missed 50 games.. Shaq (starter) left the team.. That's 3 starters outside of Lebron that the Cavs were missing..
Then they also lost Varejao, Delonte and Zydrunas - if you know ANYTHING about the Cavs, you'd know that each of these guys were key components of the team.. The Cavs had so many injuries and departures in 2011, that they had garbage men starting for them:
[I]Alonzo Gee[/I]: started 29 games
[I]Christian Eyenga[/I]: 18 games
[I]Ryan Hollins[/I]: 16 games
[I]Daniel Gibson[/I]: 15 games
[I]Manny Harris[/I]: 15 games
[I]Jamario Moon[/I]: 13 games
[I]Samardo Samuels[/I]: 10 games
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
Jordan scored more because he shot more. I already proved this to you, I'm not doing it again.
[/QUOTE]
You've never proved anything or even tried to, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
You simply miss the point - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Like, isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. Well that's what Jordan did...
Jordan simply DID MORE - just look at those stats again - Jordan scored more, on better efficiency - what else would you want him to do?... Score less, on less efficiency?... Like, your perception of this situation couldn't be dumber.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
Grant and Pippen both had their career highs without Jordan, that's not a coincidence.
[/QUOTE]
They played at literally 98% capacity alongside Jordan - their highs alongside Jordan were essentially the same as their 1994 stats:
[I]Pippen 1992[/I]: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]7.0 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 50.6 fg
[I]Pippen 1994[/I]: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]5.6 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 49.1 fg
Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..
It's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan... Compare that to Bosh, Love and Wade, whose stats crater alongside Lebron.. It's like night and day.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
there's no plausible way to know if they could have won 55 in 1991 without MJ.
[/QUOTE]
It's dumb that anyone would think this, but I'll respond anyway.
Pippen and Grant weren't as good in 1991 as they were in 1994 - just look at the stats... Pippen wasn't even an all-star that year and he was just coming off his epic choke in 1990 ECF.. He wasn't the experienced 3-time champion that he was in 1994.
The fact that Pippen and Grant had yet to peak is enough to prove the Bulls couldn't have duplicated the success they had in 1994 when they were savvy, 3-time champions.. Like ANY team, the Bulls' journey was an accumulative one.. The gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..
MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.. Every Bulls team required MJ to be the greatest scorer ever, which proves the Bulls didn't win 55 games in 1994 because they had talented scorers - they won because of the execution, strategy, and teamwork accumulated by 3-peating with MJ.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
This is the same copy/paste bullcrap (about MJ's heavy load he carries).
[/QUOTE]
There wasn't a single copy paste in that post - you just can't respond to it - but here are the facts about the massive load MJ carried:
1) MJ scored a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever
2) MJ assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals - he was the team leader in assist % for both 3-peats
3) MJ played goat-level defense in addition to all-time scoring and team leading passing.
[QUOTE=Bankaii]
the 2014 Heat had the 5th best record in the league and 4th in the West
[/QUOTE]
The Heat's record puts them in the middle of the playoff pack in the West - but more importantly, they played far worse than anyone the Spurs faced in the playoffs (Mavs, Blazers, OKC)... No one who watched the colossal embarrassment in the Finals thought the Heat could beat any of those playoff teams.
Infact, the Spurs destroyed the Heat worse than ANY team has been beaten - it was a record defeat.. Again, the 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team in 2015 (due to injuries to Bosh/Wade).
So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but then they fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?
.
[quote=Bankaii]
MJ shot more (apparently, his team required it to win rings)
[/quote]
[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]Efficiency at high volume - players with 25+ FGA and 45% FG [/COLOR][/SIZE]
[B]Regular Season:[/B]
Michael Jordan: 1987, 1993
Rick Barry:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 1975
George Gervin:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 1982
Kobe Bryant:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 2006
Elgin Baylor:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 1963
Tiny Archibald:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 1973
Dominique:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 1988
[B]Playoffs (10 game min):[/B]
*Michael Jordan:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor:[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR] 1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo:[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR] 1974, 1975
George Gervin:[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] 1975, 1982
Jerry West:[COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR] 1966
Rick Barry:[COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR] 1977
Hakeem Olajuwon:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 1995
Kobe Bryant:[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR] 2007
Dominique:[COLOR="White"]............[/COLOR] 1988
Allen Iverson:[COLOR="White"].........[/COLOR] 2005
Kareem Jabbar:[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 1975
[I]* Averaged 25.1 FGA and 48.7 FG% for his playoff career[/I]
[COLOR="Navy"]Notice that Lebron is not on the list[/COLOR] - the 2015 playoffs were Lebron's first high volume playoffs and we saw what happened when the high volume (27 fga) forced him to stray from his normal diet of 3-pointers and layups - he shot an abysmal 41%.. Unfortunately, Lebron has poor efficiency at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting, so he can't shoot well at high volume or require a double-team to PREVENT high volume.
In the Finals, he only shot 39% - it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so they encouraged his high volume by not double-teaming.. They only double-teamed him 18 times [url=http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team]in the entire Finals[/url] (see 3rd paragraph in section on Curry for double-teaming data).. Compare that to MJ, where his efficient high volume caused teams to double-team him 10+ times in a single quarter, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210]as a standard[/url] - teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too..
But the REAL holy grail of basketball skill is far greater than controlling pace with high volume like Lebron, or adding good efficiency to the high volume like MJ.. The real holy grail is good efficiency at high volume [I][COLOR="Navy"]while winning championships[/COLOR][/I] because the efficient high volume must be achieved within the team concept.. Only 2 players have reached this holy grail of basketball skill (25 shot attempts on 45% during a championship playoff run): MJ did it 4 times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995).. Ultimately, their elite midrange efficiency allowed them to shoot well at high volume.
Now lets look at Lebron - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. [I]Well that's what Jordan DID (see the stats below)[/I].
If Kobe or Lebron could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at very high volume:
[SIZE="1"][U]Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:[/U]
JORDAN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. [COLOR="green"]32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg[/COLOR]
LEBRON:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg[/COLOR]
KOBE:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg[/COLOR]
WADE:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg[/COLOR][/size]
Considering the #2 thru #4 guys are between 32 and 36 points, you'd think the #1 guy would be at 37 or 38... But MJ is at 43.3 points, which far above the pack and in another tier - MJ simply [I]did more[/I] (higher volume) while still maintaining equal or better efficiency.
Love him or hate him.
As annoying and batshit crazy as any Stan can be, 3ball MURKS, it's doom for the opposition.
They hate him now, but other player stans secretly wish he was in their side.
[QUOTE=plowking]In what way is it not. Martin was a 20ppg scorer in his prime, and Harper just came off a 20/6/5 season. More rounded than Martin ever was.
An absolutely beasty defender to begin with, and then you tell him to just fit in on offense, and give his absolute all on defense? Come on... lol.
Put Jimmy Butler on the Spurs and tell him to just focus on D again. :oldlol:
You sit here and pretend as if people can't remember the type of offensive threat Harper was prior to the Bulls.[/QUOTE]
If you're just going to read basketball reference to come up with your conclusions at least do it right. Harper was not a 20/6/5 player when he started playing with Jordan. He joined the 95 Bulls not the 96 Bulls and only averaged 8/3/2 on 42% in 20 mpg for 65 games before Jordan ever came back. Jimmy Butler? You're basically saying he was a top 20 player at worst then :oldlol:. And the 95 Bulls, who were barely above .500 before Jordan came back could've easily used his 20/6/5. But he didn't cause he wasn't capable at that point. He was a good defender at that point and that was about it. Please stop acting like you know what you're talking about :oldlol:
[B]COMPARISON BREAKDOWN, LEBRON JAMES[/B]
[QUOTE=sundizz]1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.[/quote]
Dwyane Wade > Scottie Pippen
[quote]2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.[/quote]
Same or even a tier above Rodman as complete players:
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
A tier below Rodman:
Chris Bosh
[quote]3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.[/quote]
Carlos Boozer with Cavs: 16 ppg (52 % FG), 11 rpg, 2 apg, 1 bpg, 0.7 spg
Drew Gooden with Cavs: 12 ppg (49 % FG), 9 rpg
Since you cherry picked one season worth of stats for Grant, here are Zydranus Ilgauskas first three seasons with James: 16 ppg (49 % FG), 8 rpg, 2 bpg
[quote]4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.[/quote]
Mo Williams with Cavs ('09, '10): 17 ppg (43 % 3FG), 5 apg, 3 rpg
JR Smith first season with Cavs: 13 ppg (40 % 3FG), 4 apg, 3 rpg
Larry Hughes with Cavs: 15 ppg, 4 rpg, 4 apg, 1.3 spg
[quote]5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.
6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%[/quote]
LOL at Charles Oakley and BJ Armstrong being some kind of special players. I listed six players comparable to Grant and Kukoc, so just pick two of the remaining four.
[quote]7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.[/quote]
Oh, so we're doing this where a players resume from before joining the discussed subject (Jordan) is merit in itself. Fact is Harper wasn't a very good player post ACL surgery -- serviceable but basically only good for team defense and play making (and knocking down wide open jumpers).
Players with awesome resumes that later joined Lebron James:
Shaquille O'Neal .. since you posted Harper's stats prior to joining Bulls. Should I list this guy stats?
Ray Allen ... how about this guys'?
Larry Hughes had this season just before joining James: 22 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, 2.9 spg (steals title 2005)
lol Ron Harper
[quote]And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.
Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?[/QUOTE]
Other help:
Mike Bibby
Mario Chalmers
Chris Anderson
Udonis Haslem
Shane Battier
Rashard Lewis
Antawn Jamison
Jordan:
Orlando Woolridge
John Paxon
Craig Hodges
Bill Cartwright
Jud Buechler
Luc Longley
Bill Wennington
Stacey King
lol
Fun fact - "other, other" help
(played very little with, or played with but way beyond their prime)
Wally Sczcerbiak
Joe Smith
Jerry Stackhouse
Ben Wallace
Ricky Davis