Cliffs:
1-9
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Cliffs:
1-9
[QUOTE=3ball][B]Bosh's stats were easily better than Grant's when you include the other 95% of their careers..[/B]
[I][COLOR="Navy"]But more importantly, Bosh was an all-star both years, while Grant wasn't (and Bosh was all-star 10 times overall, compared to once for Grant), [B]so he was considered [/B]a top forward in his conference, and therefore better relative to his competition than Grant[/COLOR][/I].
Try again bud.[/QUOTE]
I guess I'm in the minority on this board that just doesn't give a **** about Bosh's 20 ppg seasons in Toronto. They didn't mean anything, they didn't lead to playoff success (or barely the playoffs at all) or personal accolades (1 All-NBA selection in his career, 1 top 10 MVP finish, never led the league in any statistical category). You give Grant 15-17 shots on a terrible team, he could probably average 20 ppg too, or close to it.
This thread is about how they performed as third options, and when they won titles they were basically dead even in production.
[QUOTE=dubeta]Cliffs:
1-9[/QUOTE]
ETHER
[QUOTE=Straight_Ballin]This is gold.
Just when 3ball dominates ISH by pointing out how worse of a 2nd option pippen was relative to other 2nd options, he hits yo' ass with a Horace grant being the worst 3rd option and provides even FURTHER evidence that MJ was so GOAT that he needed the least amount of help to achieve finals perfection.
Did MORE with LESS!
That's the new MJ GOAT motto for all of ISH to follow![/QUOTE]
WHY ARE PEOPLE EVEN ARGUING THIS? :hammerhead: :banghead:
[QUOTE=livinglegend]
False, they are near the top.
[/QUOTE]
[B]The [url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538 rankings[/url] show that MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which means MJ won with less than Lebron won with... MJ was capable of winning with less..
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Could MJ have won with Lebron's 2007 or 2015 casts?[/COLOR][/I]... Probably, since he would've scored a lot more and he would've shot much better than 35% and 39%, respectively, that's for certain..[/B]
[QUOTE=3ball][B]The [url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538 rankings[/url] show that MJ's casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts,
[/QUOTE]
False. Jordan s casts are near the top.
[IMG]https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]
I guess I'm in the minority on this board that just doesn't give a **** about Bosh's 20 ppg seasons in Toronto.
[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="3"]You missed my edit:[/SIZE]
[I]Those stats are about equal, and Bosh's stats were easily better than Grant's [B]when you include the other 90% of their time [U]as 3rd options[/U][/B]..
[I]But more importantly, Bosh was an all-star both years, while Grant wasn't - [COLOR="Navy"]so Bosh was considered a top forward in his conference, and therefore better relative to his competition than Grant [/COLOR][/I]..
Overall Bosh was a 10-time top forward in his conference (all-star), compared to once for Grant.. So try again bud.[/I]
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=livinglegend]
False, they are near the top.
[/QUOTE]
[B]The [url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538 rankings[/url] show that MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which means MJ won with less than Lebron won with... MJ was capable of winning with less..
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Could MJ have won with Lebron's 2007 or 2015 casts?[/COLOR][/I]... Probably, since he would've scored a lot more and he would've shot much better than 35% and 39%, respectively.[/B]
Jordan 1-9 without Pippen.
Pippen won 55 games without Jordan.
No other superstar in their prime had a team that won 55 games without him.
Jordan had the most stacked team of all-time...
[QUOTE=3ball][B]The [url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538 rankings[/url] show that MJ casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts,
[/B][/QUOTE]
False.
[IMG]https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=livinglegend]
No other superstar in their prime had a team that could win 55 games without him.
[/QUOTE]
No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..
But the Bulls were exposed in the playoffs - 3-peat chemistry could only get them to the 2nd Round - they simply lacked talent.
Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.
[COLOR="Navy"][I]Now if we were running an experiment to see if MJ's impact was [U]truly[/U] 3-peat to 2nd Round, we would have him come back and see if he could 3-peat again.... VIOLA!!!!... Done and done.. Confirmed 2nd Round to 3-peat impact.[/I][/COLOR]
[COLOR="White"]this is getting so easy[/COLOR]
[QUOTE=livinglegend]
False, they are near the top.
[/QUOTE]
[B]The [url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538 rankings[/url] show that MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which means MJ won with less than Lebron won with... MJ was capable of winning with less..
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Could MJ have won with Lebron's 2007 or 2015 casts?[/COLOR][/I]... Probably, since he would've scored a lot more and he would've shot much better than 35% and 39%, respectively..[/B]
[QUOTE=livinglegend]
No other superstar in their prime had a team that could win 55 games without him.
[/QUOTE]
No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..
But the Bulls were exposed in the playoffs - 3-peat chemistry could only get them to the 2nd Round - they simply lacked talent.
Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.
[COLOR="Navy"][I]Now if we were running an experiment to see if MJ's impact was [U]truly[/U] 3-peat to 2nd Round, we would have him come back and see if he could 3-peat again.... VIOLA!!!!... Done and done.. Confirmed 2nd Round to 3-peat impact.[/I][/COLOR]
[COLOR="White"]this is getting so easy.[/COLOR]
[QUOTE=3ball]No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system -[B] if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too.. [/B]
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="White"]this is getting so easy[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
That s an assumption, i talk only facts.
Jordan 1-9 without Pippen.
Pippen won 55 games without Jordan.
No other superstar in their prime had a team that won 55 games without him.
Jordan had the most stacked team of all-time...
[QUOTE=livinglegend]
No other superstar in their prime had a team that could win 55 games without him.
[/QUOTE]
No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..
But the Bulls were exposed in the playoffs - 3-peat chemistry could only get them to the 2nd Round - they simply lacked talent.
Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.
[COLOR="Navy"][I]Now if we were running an experiment to see if MJ's impact was [U]truly[/U] 3-peat to 2nd Round, we would have him come back and see if he could 3-peat again.... VIOLA!!!!... Done and done.. Confirmed 2nd Round to 3-peat impact.[/I][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=3ball][B]The [url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538 rankings[/url] show that MJ casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts,
[/B][/QUOTE]
False.
[IMG]https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png[/IMG]
[COLOR="White"]this is getting so easy[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
s
[QUOTE=3ball]No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..
[/QUOTE]
That s an assumption, i talk only facts.
Jordan 1-9 without Pippen.
Pippen won 55 games without Jordan.
No other superstar in their prime had a team that won 55 games without him.
Jordan had the most stacked team of all-time...
[QUOTE=livinglegend]
No other superstar in their prime had a team that could win 55 games without him.
[/QUOTE]
No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..
But the Bulls were exposed in the playoffs - 3-peat chemistry could only get them to the 2nd Round - they simply lacked talent.
Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.
[COLOR="Navy"][I]Now if we were running an experiment to see if MJ's impact was [U]truly[/U] 3-peat to 2nd Round, we would have him come back and see if he could 3-peat again.... VIOLA!!!!... Done and done.. Confirmed 2nd Round to 3-peat impact..[/I][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=livinglegend]
False, they are near the top.
[/QUOTE]
[B]The [url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538 rankings[/url] show that MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which means MJ won with less than Lebron won with... MJ was capable of winning with less..
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Could MJ have won with Lebron's 2007 or 2015 casts?[/COLOR][/I]... Probably, since he would've scored a lot more and he would've shot much better than 35% and 39%, respectively..[/B].
[QUOTE=3ball]No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..
[/QUOTE]
That s an assumption, i talk only facts.
Jordan 1-9 without Pippen.
Pippen won 55 games without Jordan.
No other superstar in their prime had a team that won 55 games without him.
Jordan had the most stacked team of all-time....
[QUOTE=3ball][B]The [url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538 rankings[/url] show that MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which means MJ won with less than Lebron won with... MJ was capable of winning with less..
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Could MJ have won with Lebron's 2007 or 2015 casts?[/COLOR][/I]... Probably, since he would've scored a lot more and he would've shot much better than 35% and 39%, respectively..[/B].[/QUOTE]
False.
[IMG]https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png[/IMG]
[COLOR="White"]this is getting so easy[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
s
[QUOTE=livinglegend]
No other superstar in their prime had a team that could win 55 games without him.
[/QUOTE]
No other team had 3-peat chemistry, teamwork and system - if they did, they would win 55 games with marginal talent too..
But the Bulls were exposed in the playoffs - 3-peat chemistry could only get them to the 2nd Round - they simply lacked talent.
Furthermore, the 94' Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.
[COLOR="Navy"][I]Now if we were running an experiment to see if MJ's impact was [U]truly[/U] 3-peat to 2nd Round, we would have him come back and see if he could 3-peat again.... VIOLA!!!!... Done and done.. Confirmed 2nd Round to 3-peat impact...[/I][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=livinglegend]
False, they are near the top.
[/QUOTE]
[B]The [url=https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png]538 rankings[/url] show that MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts rank far lower than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts, which means MJ won with less than Lebron won with... MJ was capable of winning with less..
[I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Could MJ have won with Lebron's 2007 or 2015 casts?[/COLOR][/I]... Probably, since he would've scored a lot more and he would've shot much better than 35% and 39%, respectively...[/B]
[QUOTE=livinglegend]False.
[IMG]https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png[/IMG]
[COLOR="White"]this is getting so easy[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
This isn't surprising that Jordan's teammates had the best +/- ratings. No one made his team mates better than Jordan did, boosting their +/- ratings through the roof. We see similar with Steph Curry and Draymond Green, Draymond Green is a hustle man defender yet his +/- gets astronomically boosted from playing with Curry.
So you can't use a stat to gauge Jordan's teammates when the stat is getting directly influenced by Jordan at the same time. It's circular reasoning that doesn't make sense.