Remember when 34-35 year old MJ was more dominant than 2000 Shaq?

[QUOTE=feyki]

Kobe at 2001 Playoffs (100 Poss) ;

[B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"]35.5 pts[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B] , 9 reb , 7 ast , 2 stl , 1 blk , 4 to , %55.5 TS , 116 Ortg ( Against 100 Drtg Teams )

Jordan ;

[B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"]44.5 pts[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B] , 7 reb , 5 ast , 2 stl , 1 blk , 3 to , %54.5 TS , 117 Ortg (Against 104 Drtg Teams )

Jordan just took more shots against far worse defensive teams .

Kobe played better all around game . 2 more boards , 2.5 more assists and %1 better shooting .[/QUOTE]
[B][COLOR="Blue"]What planet are you living on - Jordan scored 25% more than Kobe against teams who were allowing only 4% more scoring, as your stats show above.

Furthermore, 1998 Jordan was MVP, FMVP, ASG MVP, All-NBA 1st team, All-NBA Defensive 1st team, whereas 2001 Kobe was none of these things.

But here's the most revealing thing - we have stats for Kobe's proportion of scoring while he was on the floor in 2000-2002 seasons:[/COLOR][/B]


[COLOR="White"]................[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"][I]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]40.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]37.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]46.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]40.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]50.4[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]42.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]39.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]48.8[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]43.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]49.1[/url]

[I][B]KOBE 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]32.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]34.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]31.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]37.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]23.7[/url]
[I][B]KOBE 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]30.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]31.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]29.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]27.2[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]32.4[/url]

[I][B]KOBE 2008[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]31.8[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]36.8[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]41.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]30.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]32.1[/url]


[COLOR="Blue"][B]Look at that - it's not even CLOSE... So quit dreaming and join the reality..

Only the big boys like prime Shaq compare to old MJ... Small fry and 2nd options like Kobe don't compare at all - now if I put Pippen's stats alongside Kobe - that's more his speed - he [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12088374&postcount=10]trounces[/url] Pippen as a 2nd option.[/B][/COLOR]
.

A lot of delusion itt - the only facts are what I post
.

Don't you have any hobbies? This has gone from pathetic to just dark and disturbing now. I mean...the obsession...jesus christ...what the hell is wrong with you?

People living on who had more points . Defence,playmaking and shooting more important than scoring .

If you feel like that my arguements meaningless for you . Go ahead and think whatever you want .

Jordan ALSO carried a lottery roster to 6 games with the champs.

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54.. So that roster WAS a lottery roster that he carried to 6 games with World Champion Bad Boys in ECF.. Pippen's stats in that series was 10/5 (14/6 in RS).. Also, MJ carried that lottery roster ALL SEASON, not just beginning in ECSF like the always-pampered Lebron... :rolleyes:

But again, without MJ heading into 1990 season, those Bulls would've been a lottery team, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting their first 3-peat.

And in reality, they would've won the championship in 1990 if Pippen hadn't choked in Game 7 of ECF (2 points, 1-10).. The Bulls would've beaten Blazers easily, since Pistons beat them in 5 easy games, but needed 7 games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls... The ORtg gap between Pistons/Blazers was huge, whereas it was razor-thin or Pistons/Bulls.

[QUOTE=choppermagic]

What the hell is this crap?

Scoring a higher percentage of your team's points does not mean you are a more dominant player. [B][COLOR="Red"] Geez, your team can suck balls and you score 80% of your team's points, but still be a mediocre player.
[/COLOR][/B]
[/QUOTE]
That isn't what happened though - Jordan's usage (which accounts for proportion of team FG's and FT's) was 33-35% while Shaq's was 31-32% - so Jordan's was barely higher.

And Jordan's team didn't "suck balls" - they were 6/6 with that formula, which means it was the best formula for that team.

Of course, the notion that MJ didn't NEED to have 33-35% usage is ridiculous... In that case, neither did Shaq - Shaq's usage didn't NEED to be 31-32%.. See how dumb that argument is - it could be used for every player in history.

Phil went 6/6 with MJ having the highest usage, thus carrying the heaviest load - I'm sure he'd agree that was the best way for that team to succeed... 6/6 don't lie..


[QUOTE=choppermagic]What the hell is this crap?

And Kobe was with Shaq and also dominant those years too. That made the Lakers even more powerful. [B][COLOR="Red"]Who cares if Kobe's presence lowered Shaq's percentage of the Laker's total points? It didn't make him less dominant.[/COLOR][/B]

[/QUOTE]
Of course it does - Shaq's lower usage while winning his rings means he didn't have to do as much as Jordan to win his rings.

[COLOR="Navy"][I]Btw, Kobe only averaged 15 ppg on 35% in 2000 Finals, which was less than Pippen's 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals... [/I]
[/COLOR]
So 2000 Shaq had LESS help from Kobe, but still scored a lower proportion of his team's points... So MJ wins the argument on ALL fronts.

I didn't say 2001 Kobe better than Jordan . I said 2001 Kobe better than 98 Jordan . They had equal defence . Jordan
Had better scoring . Kobe had better shooting,playmaking and rebounding .

And Kobe played against better teams .

Also , Kobe's Kings and Spurs series >>>> Jordan's Pacers and Jazz series .

[QUOTE=feyki]Oyun okumayi bilmek lazim , umarim ulasabilirsin o erdeme .[/QUOTE]
Birader, ben oyunu izledim zaten. Sen box score okuyorsun anca. Ger

[QUOTE=feyki]I didn't say 2001 Kobe better than Jordan . I said 2001 Kobe better than 98 Jordan . They had equal defence . Jordan
Had better scoring . Kobe had better shooting,playmaking and rebounding .

And Kobe played against better teams .

Also , Kobe's Kings and Spurs series >>>> Jordan's Pacers and Jazz series .[/QUOTE]
Here. Some facts for you.

Jordan won the MVP award in 1998. Because he led his team to the best record while Pippen missed half of the season.

Also your argument based on DRtg absolute bullshit. Because you use regular season numbers. Post their opponents DRtg in the playoffs. I'd like to see those numbers.
And the Spurs led the league with 98.0. But when Kobe went up against the Spurs, only 15+ ppg Spur besides Duncan, Derek Anderson was injured. Kobe was playing against 25 year-old Antonio Daniels, 35 year-old Avery Johnson, 37 year-old Terry Porter. That Spurs had no viable offensive player besides Duncan and they got crushed.

Jordan won 1998 rin on sheer will. He was better than 2001 Kobe, which still had MDE by his side. I'm not even bothering to talk about how 1998 Jordan was superior mid-range shooter, had far better footwork and low-post moves, etc.

Idiotic claims won't get you anywhere. Instead, try to read/listen and learn.

[QUOTE=Pushxx]You should see this guy's Michael Jordan archive on his computer:

[LIST][*]a folder for photoshopped dick pics[*]a folder for essays[*]a folder for .gifs[*]...it goes on.[/LIST]

He's linked countless YouTube videos with time marks just to show MJ plays. Like multi-hour long videos and he has them all marked down exactly. He always has them on demand. I can't imagine how many notes and stats this guy keeps for this.[/QUOTE]
The guy has done the exact same posts, 14 times a day, every day, non-stop, holidays included, for two years.

And has literally zero sense of humor.:lol

Odinn ;

Maclari herkes izliyor , ondan bahsetmiyorum . Oyunu okumak clutch time'lar disinda kagit ustunden geciyor . Ney daha cok parkede ise yariyor , ney seni daha cok basarili kiliyor . Bunlari belirlemek onemli .


I'm not interested about regular seasons numbers . I only posted their playoff numbers (yes , i posted their opponents off and def rat ) . You're right on Spurs perimeter defence . I agree that . But Why 98 Jordan better than 2001 Kobe ? Cause took more shots around 4-5 . I can't understand that .

People aren't thinking rationally itt - they're just looking at how big Shaq was and thinking: big = dominant.

That's dumb.

Watch any Jordan game from his career, including 1997 and 1998 - he was double-teamed ALL THE TIME - more than 2000 Shaq - watch the damn games... It was completely standard to send a 2nd guy at MJ anywhere on the floor..

[I]Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally to Shaq - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post [B](53%)[/B] compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video [B](50%)[/B].[/I]

[INDENT][I]SHAQ'S POST MOVES[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8[/url]
[I]MJ'S POST MOVES[/I]: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg[/url][/INDENT]


[I]However, MJ was a danger anywhere, so he was doubled all over the court, not just on the post[/I] - teams doubled him 10+ possessions in a row, as shown in several games [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210]here[/url]...

Someone show me where 2000 Shaq was double-teamed even FIVE times in a row, let alone 10+ like MJ... You guys are just being blind... To you, your mind thinks "[I]how could MJ have been more dominant - Shaq was so big[/I]"... But yet you can't show me where he was double-teamed more, whereas I can show you where MJ was.. and of course, MJ carried the bigger load, as proven in the OP.

It shouldn't be surprising or unbelievable - MJ scored a larger proportion of his team's points with equal TS and better ORtg, and he had a less dangerous #2 to deflect attention (Pippen vs. Kobe) - [I][COLOR="blue"]so why WOULDN'T teams double MJ more?[/COLOR][/I]

Peak Shaq is MDE, comfortably better than Jordan

[QUOTE=Quickening]

Peak Shaq is MDE, comfortably better than Jordan

[/QUOTE]
[I][COLOR="Navy"]If 2000 Shaq was more dominant than 35-year old MJ, then why did he score a far lower proportion of his team's points, despite having a weaker 2nd option that year (Kobe 15 ppg on 35% in Finals)?[/COLOR]
[/I]
If you carry the far bigger load SUCCESSFULLY, you're more dominant - period., And we're looking at 35-year old MJ itt - if this was 28-year old MJ - Shaq would be ridiculously destroyed, even more than 35-year old MJ destroys him.

Of course, the notion that MJ didn't NEED to have 33-35% usage is ridiculous... In that case, neither did Shaq - Shaq's usage didn't NEED to be 31-32%.. See how dumb that argument is - it could be used for every player in history.

Phil went 6/6 with MJ having the highest usage, thus carrying the heaviest load - I'm sure he'd agree that was the best way for that team to succeed... 6/6 don't lie..

Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game.

[B]*SHAQ 00[/B] PRF- 38.11 FG% .574 (21.1 FGA)
Blocks- 3
Steals-0.5
Rebounds- 13.6
Fouled-10.4
Free Throws made- 5.5

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 71.11
Total 2=60.71
Total 3=55.21

[B]*Jordan 97[/B] PRF-39.24-- FG%.486 (23.1 FGA)
Blocks- 0.5
Steals-1.7
Rebounds-5.9
Fouled-7
Free Throws made-5.9

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=60.24
Total 2=53.24
Total 3=47.34

[B]Jordan 89[/B] PRF- 48.5-- FG% .538 (24.0 FGA)
Blocks- 0.8
Steals-2.9
Rebounds-8
Fouled-9.8
Free Throws made-8.3

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=78.3
Total 2=68.5
Total 3=60.2

[B]Wilt 67[/B] PRF- 41.5-- FG% .683 (14.2 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds-24.2
Fouled-10.8
Free Throws made-4.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=81.3
Total 2=70.5
Total 3=65.7

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7

Total 1=73.2/75.8
Total 2= 62.4/65
Total 3= 57.6/60.2

Should FG% be added into the calculation somehow? Note Wilt in 67 Would technically be further ahead if Blocks/Steals Data was available, even with adjusted stats for everything but Points/Assists. He would get his 14.2 Attempts, and assist rules of the time might of been a natural adjustment for the higher pace.

89 MJ :bowdown:

He was probably his best in 91, but we know stats can only tell so much. Still interesting IMO

Just updated with FGA since I thought that might be a tad relevant, but like FG% I did NOT put that into the totals

ORB/TRB are more important than steals/Blocks IMO, btw

[QUOTE=jongib369]

Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game.

[B]*SHAQ 00[/B] PRF- 38.11 FG% .574 (21.1 FGA)
Blocks- 3
Steals-0.5
Rebounds- 13.6
Fouled-10.4
Free Throws made- 5.5

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 71.11
Total 2=60.71
Total 3=55.21

[B]*Jordan 97[/B] PRF-39.24-- FG%.486 (23.1 FGA)
Blocks- 0.5
Steals-1.7
Rebounds-5.9
Fouled-7
Free Throws made-5.9

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=60.24
Total 2=53.24
Total 3=47.34

[B]Jordan 89[/B] PRF- 48.5-- FG% .538 (24.0 FGA)
Blocks- 0.8
Steals-2.9
Rebounds-8
Fouled-9.8
Free Throws made-8.3

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=78.3
Total 2=68.5
Total 3=60.2

[B]Wilt 67[/B] PRF- 41.5-- FG% .683 (14.2 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds-24.2
Fouled-10.8
Free Throws made-4.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=81.3
Total 2=70.5
Total 3=65.7

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7

Total 1=73.2/75.8
Total 2= 62.4/65
Total 3= 57.6/60.2

Should FG% be added into the calculation somehow? Note Wilt in 67 Would technically be further ahead if Blocks/Steals Data was available, even with adjusted stats for everything but Points/Assists. He would get his 14.2 Attempts, and assist rules of the time might of been a natural adjustment for the higher pace.

89 MJ :bowdown:

He was probably his best in 91, but we know stats can only tell so much. Still interesting IMO

[/QUOTE]
[B]Explain your analysis as it relates to assists - it looks like your parameters EXCLUDE assists[/B]

And it's no surprise that your parameters say Jordan's 1989 is the most dominant season ever - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8/54... So that Bulls' roster WAS a lottery roster - without MJ, they would've been lottery heading into 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning 3-peat...

MJ led a lottery roster (1989 roster) to a 3-peat (it was the same roster).. NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY DID THIS (led the same lottery roster to championship)- everyone else got help: Bird added McHale and Parish in 1981, the same year he won his first ring... Magic had Kareem from the get-go... the 1996 Lakers were 53-win, 4-seed before Shaq team-hopped in 1997... Spurs were #1 seed in 1996 before Robinson was injured in 1997 and Duncan was added in 1998... etc, etc, etc

No one remembers this because it never happened. Shaq is the MDE.

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]No one remembers this because it never happened. Shaq is the MDE.[/QUOTE]
[B]If 2000 Shaq was more dominant than 34-35-year old MJ, then why did he score a far lower proportion of his team's points, despite having a weaker 2nd option that year (Kobe 15 ppg on 35% in Finals)?
[/B]
And we're talking about 34-35 year old MJ - prime MJ ridiculously destroys Shaq more than old MJ did... It's not even close.

Prime MJ is the most dominant player ever, by FAR - he didn't need top 10 all-time player Kobe or some super-boss like Wade to carry him.. MJ's prime performance is by far the most dominant of all time.

stating facts

.
[SIZE="5"]Jordan's 1991-1993 versus Shaq's 2000-2002:
[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Navy"][I]Rebounds/Assists cancel out... So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%.
[/COLOR]


[B]REGULAR SEASON[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense [COLOR="Green"]1st[/COLOR] Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense [COLOR="Red"]2nd[/COLOR] Team.. 1 MVP


[B]PLAYOFFS[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


[B]FINALS[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] #5, #3, #9 defenses.. [COLOR="Green"]beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley[/COLOR]
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. [COLOR="Red"]beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd[/COLOR]



[COLOR="Navy"]The relevant stats are shown above and MJ beats Shaq ACROSS THE BOARD[/I][/COLOR]


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/LXkZUhv.gif[/IMG].

[B]Pippen 4th in PER the season MJ left. Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan (not to mention Defensive All Teamer Horace Grant). Jordan was the most protected superstar of his era. You couldnt even touch him or it was a foul.[/B]

[QUOTE=3ball]


[B]Can you explain your analysis as it relates to [I][SIZE="3"]assists[/SIZE][/I] - it looks like your parameters EXCLUDE assists[/B]

And it's no surprise that your parameters say Jordan's 1989 is the most dominant season ever - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8/54... So that Bulls' roster WAS a lottery roster - without MJ, they would've been lottery heading into 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning 3-peat...

MJ led a lottery roster (1989 roster) to a 3-peat (it was the same roster).. NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY DID THIS (led the same lottery roster to championship)- everyone else got help: Bird added McHale and Parish in 1981, the same year he won his first ring... Magic had Kareem from the get-go... the 1996 Lakers were 53-win, 4-seed before Shaq team-hopped in 1997... Spurs were #1 seed in 1996 before Robinson was injured in 1997 and Duncan was added in 1998... etc, etc, etc


[/QUOTE]
[B]jongib369 - any response to the question in bold above?

It looks like your parameters excludes assists - obviously, their inclusion would make MJ's 1997 > Shaq's 2000.[/B]

you said something about asterisk means assisting 3's or something - but it isn't clear - it seems like you should've just included assists in with the other stats like pts and rebounds.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Pippen 4th in PER the season MJ left. Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan (not to mention Defensive All Teamer Horace Grant). Jordan was the most protected superstar of his era. You couldnt even touch him or it was a foul.[/B][/QUOTE]

[img]http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/2011/07/9841665-large.jpg[/img]

[img]http://sneakerbardetroit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/michael-jordan-mgm-grand-fight.jpg[/img]

guys all over the league got technical fouls for that jordan never did.

[QUOTE=Round Mound]

[B]Pippen 4th in PER the season MJ left. Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan

(not to mention Defensive All Teamer Horace Grant).[/B]

[/QUOTE]
Pippen played to full capacity alongside Jordan - his stats were exactly the same without Jordan (22.0/8.7/5.6 in 1994) compared to with Jordan (21.0/7.1/7.0 in 1992... or 19/8/6 in 1993).

Regarding Jordan's PF - Jordan won 6 rings without an all-star PF and 4 rings without an all-defense PF (Rodman didn't make all-nba defense in 1997 or 1998)..


[QUOTE=Round Mound]

That's how good they were without Jordan

[/QUOTE]
We know the Bulls' 6th best record in 1994 wasn't due to 6th best talent - Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong were [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12087908&postcount=239]nowhere near[/url] top 6 among the league's second and third options, while Pippen wasn't top 6 among the league's first options (Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Alonzo 22/10 and 3 blk, and more).

Their NON-top 6 talent proves their top 6 record was due to chemistry and know-how, specifically 3-peat chemistry and know-how from winning 3 straight championships.. Again, they didn't have anywhere near top 6 talent to support their top 6 record.

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Look - I'm not making this shit up about chemistry - hear it from the Bulls' own mouths - this is from interviews in [B]2016[/B]:[/COLOR][/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptKLUpw7Z58&t=2m05s[/url]
.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Explain your analysis as it relates to assists - it looks like your parameters EXCLUDE assists[/B]

And it's no surprise that your parameters say Jordan's 1989 is the most dominant season ever - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8/54... So that Bulls' roster WAS a lottery roster - without MJ, they would've been lottery heading into 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning 3-peat...

MJ led a lottery roster (1989 roster) to a 3-peat (it was the same roster).. NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY DID THIS (led the same lottery roster to championship)- everyone else got help: Bird added McHale and Parish in 1981, the same year he won his first ring... Magic had Kareem from the get-go... the 1996 Lakers were 53-win, 4-seed before Shaq team-hopped in 1997... Spurs were #1 seed in 1996 before Robinson was injured in 1997 and Duncan was added in 1998... etc, etc, etc[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure yet if it was the most dominant ever, totaled up the way I did anyways... I suspect one of Wilts higher scoring seasons might get that nod, but the fact that a Guard is even remotely close with the advantage they have with rebounds is insane. In posting this I was not intending to bring down MJ, just to show one way I look at things.

PRF=Points responsible for, Points+Points scored off Assists they dished out. For MJ's 97 season(The earliest season I can do this for, as far as I know), I looked at his advanced assist data and found of his 4.29 assists per game(4.30 bballreference), 1.06 of them were an assist that led to a 3.

So that's 6.46 points from assisted 2's, 3.18 for 3's. So in total with his own, that's a PRF of 39.25

I realize this doesn't account for an and 1, but it's still a neat stat to look at.


Here's the data from the thread I originally made it for about Steph Curry

[QUOTE=jongib369](Info will be updated as new information comes. Feel free to correct, or contribute with different players.)

PRF= Points+points from assists.

Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game. Any stats from this season doesn't include the very last game the played(Missing stats from Currys game against Spurs)

In order from what I've gathered so far



Tiny 73- 56.8

Wilt 62- 55.2

Oscar 62- 53.6

Oscar 66- 53.5

Oscar 64- 53.4 | Oscar 65- 53.4

Oscar 67- 51.9

Wilt 63- 51.6

Oscar 61- 49.9

*LeBron 10- 49.6

Oscar 68- 48.6

Jordan in 89- 48.5

Magic 87- 48.3

*[B]Curry PER36 16- 48.2[/B]

Magic 89- 48.1

*Paul 09- 47.67

*Paul 08-47.63

Baylor in 62- 47.5

*Wade 09- 47.18

Wilt 64- 46.9

*LeBron 08- 46.71

Jordan 87- 46.3

Stockton 90- 46.2 | West 70- 46.2

*Kobe 06- 45.83

*[B]Curry 16- 45.6[/B]

*Nash 07-45.41

West 72- 45.2

*Tmac 06- 44.67

*Durant 14- 44.39

Oscar 69- 44.3

Kareem 72- 44

*Harden 15-43.81

Bird 87- 43.3

*Wall 16- 42.35

Wilt in 68- 41.5

*Curry 14- 41

*LeBron 16- 40.29

*Jordan 97- 39.24

*Shaq 00- 38.11

*Stockton 97-36.42[/QUOTE]

In the 89 playoffs MJ's PRF was 50

Jordan playing PG for 24 games in 89- 47.1

48.5 for the entire season

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]The guy has done the exact same posts, 14 times a day, every day, non-stop, holidays included, for two years.

And has literally zero sense of humor.:lol[/QUOTE]

Has to be aspergers

[QUOTE=jongib369]

In the 89 playoffs MJ's PRF was 50

Jordan playing PG for 24 games in 89- 47.1

48.5 for the entire season

[/QUOTE]
So in the modern era, Jordan's 1989 is #1, since it isn't adjusted for assists that led to 3-pointers, while Lebron's 2010 is.

And ALL the current players are overstated in this regard compared to 80's and 90's players through 1996.

Also, players that score a far higher proportion of their team's points attract more attention, which leads to less attention paid to teammates.. We don't have stats that measure the lesser attention paid to teammates, but we do have stats for proportion of team points scored while on the floor, and 34/35 year old MJ is #1 all-time in that area...

If only we had that data for his prime - considering that old MJ scored literally 45-50% of his team's points in playoffs and Finals while on the floor, this figure was very likely 60-70% or more in his prime - he's simply THE most dominant player ever, particularly in the postseason.

[QUOTE=3ball]So in the modern era, Jordan's 1989 is #1, since it isn't adjusted for assists that led to 3-pointers, while Lebron's 2010 is.

And ALL the current players are overstated in this regard compared to 80's and 90's players through 1996.

Also, players that score a far higher proportion of their team's points attract more attention, which leads to less attention paid to teammates.. We don't have stats that measure the lesser attention paid to teammates, but we do have stats for proportion of team points scored while on the floor, and 34/35 year old MJ is #1 all-time in that area...

If only we had that data for his prime - considering that old MJ scored literally 45-50% of his team's points in playoffs and Finals while on the floor, this figure was very likely 60-70% or more in his prime - he's simply THE most dominant player ever, particularly in the postseason.[/QUOTE]
No doubting MJ's dominance, and the advantage players have today with assisted 3's. Knowing how I calculate it, feel free to post what a few of those modern PRFs would be without it.

Also side question, considering how startling the numbers were for guys like Oscar, Archibald etc...What do you take from it? And if at all, how would you adjust their assists in regards to pace? Considering the rule was at the time 1 step=no assist (I think) was it a natural adjustment for them, or should they be brought down some, but just not to the same extent rebounds are?

[QUOTE=3ball]Pippen played to full capacity alongside Jordan - his stats were exactly the same without Jordan (22.0/8.7/5.6 in 1994) compared to with Jordan (21.0/7.1/7.0 in 1992... or 19/8/6 in 1993).

Regarding Jordan's PF - Jordan won 6 rings without an all-star PF and 4 rings without an all-defense PF (Rodman didn't make all-nba defense in 1997 or 1998)..



We know the Bulls' 6th best record in 1994 wasn't due to 6th best talent - Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong were [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12087908&postcount=239]nowhere near[/url] top 6 among the league's second and third options, while Pippen wasn't top 6 among the league's first options (Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Alonzo 22/10 and 3 blk, and more).

Their NON-top 6 talent proves their top 6 record was due to chemistry and know-how, specifically 3-peat chemistry and know-how from winning 3 straight championships.. Again, they didn't have anywhere near top 6 talent to support their top 6 record.

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Look - I'm not making this shit up about chemistry - hear it from the Bulls' own mouths - this is from interviews in [B]2016[/B]:[/COLOR][/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptKLUpw7Z58&t=2m05s[/url]
.[/QUOTE]

[B]Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.[/B]

Peak Shaq's impact went way beyond the numbers. Anyone who understands the game and saw him play knows this, as does anyone who coached or played against him. He was the biggest mismatch in NBA history and basically impossible to game plan for. His presence on the court affected the game more than any single player in history. He completely controlled the paint on both ends. The old cliche "you can't stop him, only hope to contain him" didn't apply to peak Shaq because he couldn't be contained.

It's not as if he was just a big body either. People tend to forget how good of a basketball player he was. He was athletic, highly skilled, and highly intelligent. He had great hands, was a great passer, and understood how to make the right basketball play. The latter is what separated his prime/peak from his Orlando and early LA years. It's absurd to suggest that 34-35 year old Jordan had anywhere near the impact of 3-peat Shaq.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.[/B][/QUOTE]

:facepalm

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.[/B][/QUOTE]

Indisputable.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.[/B][/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QQGdpWH.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Indisputable.

:applause: :applause: :applause:[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=jongib369]Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game.

[B]*SHAQ 00[/B] PRF- 38.11 FG% .574 (21.1 FGA)
Blocks- 3
Steals-0.5
Rebounds- 13.6
Fouled-10.4
Free Throws made- 5.5

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 71.11
Total 2=60.71
Total 3=55.21

[B]*Jordan 97[/B] PRF-39.24-- FG%.486 (23.1 FGA)
Blocks- 0.5
Steals-1.7
Rebounds-5.9
Fouled-7
Free Throws made-5.9

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=60.24
Total 2=53.24
Total 3=47.34

[B]Jordan 89[/B] PRF- 48.5-- FG% .538 (24.0 FGA)
Blocks- 0.8
Steals-2.9
Rebounds-8
Fouled-9.8
Free Throws made-8.3

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=78.3
Total 2=68.5
Total 3=60.2

[B]Wilt 67[/B] PRF- 41.5-- FG% .683 (14.2 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds-24.2
Fouled-10.8
Free Throws made-4.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=81.3
Total 2=70.5
Total 3=65.7

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7

Total 1=73.2/75.8
Total 2= 62.4/65
Total 3= 57.6/60.2

Should FG% be added into the calculation somehow? Note Wilt in 67 Would technically be further ahead if Blocks/Steals Data was available, even with adjusted stats for everything but Points/Assists. He would get his 14.2 Attempts, and assist rules of the time might of been a natural adjustment for the higher pace.

89 MJ :bowdown:

He was probably his best in 91, but we know stats can only tell so much. Still interesting IMO[/QUOTE]

Thought you'd appreciate this

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.[/B][/QUOTE]

You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. That is statistical fact.

[QUOTE=jongib369]Thought you'd appreciate this[/QUOTE]

No way around it, Wilt was off-the-charts. And the thing was, you could select almost any prime season of his, from his rookie year thru '68, and they were all just eye-popping.

And, yes MJ's '89 season was truly remarkable.

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt]You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. [B]That is statistical fact[/B].[/QUOTE]

And I believe 3ball has a gif which proves it, as well.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

"2 -2 =4"

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt]You don't understand. Jordan's teammates were a bunch of scrubs. He carried them singlehandedly through the first three-peat. In the process, he injected them with three-peat chemistry, and taught them how to play. Thus, the only reason the Bulls won 55 games in 94 is because of Jordan. That's how dominant Jordan was: he wins 55 games for the Bulls without even being in the league. That is statistical fact.[/QUOTE]

:roll: [B]Yeah they where touched by Jordan`s magic wand and they became good players...[/B]

34-35 year old MJ vs 2000 Shaq in a 1v1. Who wins? :roll: