Dirk has played alongside 6 all stars, Lebron has had 11, Duncan 13, Kobe 15

[QUOTE=MellowYellow][B]Monta was their best player dirk was a good 1b[/B], it would be nice if the Knicks could get good players before they die. Amare handcuffed the Knicks and that's on management. Chandler was ok but his best years was 2011 with mavs. He regressed a lot and he isn't much of an option on offense.[/QUOTE]

Dirk Nowitzki 2013/2014: 50/40/90 with 21.7 points, 6.8 reb, 23.6 PER

Monta Ellis 2013/2014: 45/33/78 with 19 points, 5 ass on 16.8 PER

do ou know that everything you say is bullshit?

[QUOTE=MellowYellow]And IDK but their isn't really much difference between the 2.

Melo 25/6.6/3.1 on 45%
Dirk 22/7.9/2.6 on 47%[/QUOTE]


[B]@ MellowYellow: where is carmelo?[/B]

[IMG]http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/2015/12/blogs/game-theory/20151205_woc333.png[/IMG]

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKX66I5UMAARHNs.png[/IMG]

[b]win shares career leader[/b] ([url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html[/url])

Rank Player WS
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26
3. Karl Malone* 234.63
4. Michael Jordan* 214.02
5. John Stockton* 207.70
[b]6. Tim Duncan 204.79
7. Dirk Nowitzki 196.54
8. Kevin Garnett 191.50[/b]
9. Oscar Robertson* 189.21
10. LeBron James 187.33
11. Shaquille O'Neal 181.71
12. David Robinson* 178.67
13. Charles Barkley* 177.21
14. Reggie Miller* 174.40
[b]15. Kobe Bryant 172.73[/b]
16. Moses Malone* 167.07
17. Bill Russell* 163.51
18. Hakeem Olajuwon* 162.77
19. Jerry West* 162.58
20. Magic Johnson* 155.79
21. Paul Pierce 149.64
22. Robert Parish* 147.00
23. Larry Bird* 145.83
24. Gary Payton* 145.53
25. Ray Allen 145.08


Win Share per 48 minutes:



NBA
Rank Player WS/48
1. Michael Jordan* .2505
2. David Robinson* .2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain* .2480
[b]4. Chris Paul .2476[/b]
5. Neil Johnston* .2413
6. LeBron James .2396
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .2284
8. Magic Johnson* .2249
9. Charles Barkley* .2163
10. Jerry West* .2134
11. Bob Pettit* .2128
[b]12. Kevin Durant .2122
13. Tim Duncan .2101[/b]
14. John Stockton* .2087
15. Shaquille O'Neal .2081
16. Oscar Robertson* .2069
17. Karl Malone* .2053
18. James Harden .2050
[b]19. Dirk Nowitzki .2035[/b]
[b]20. Larry Bird* .2032[/b]
21. Manu Ginobili .2016
22. Yao Ming .2001
23. Ed Macauley* .1964
[b]24. Stephen Curry .1929[/b]
25. Bill Russell* .1927
26. Dolph Schayes* .1922
27. Adrian Dantley* .1887
28. Sidney Moncrief .1873
29. Kevin Love .1838
30. Paul Arizin* .1833
31. Sam Jones* .1824
32. Harry Gallatin* .1824
[b]33. Kevin Garnett .1823[/b]
[b]34. Dwyane Wade .1807[/b]
35. Kevin McHale* .1802
36. Bailey Howell* .1799
37. Bill Sharman* .1782
38. George Yardley* .1780
39. Moses Malone* .1779
40. Julius Erving* .1778
41. Clyde Lovellette* .1777
42. Kevin Johnson .1777
43. Dan Issel* .1769
[b]44. Hakeem Olajuwon* .1767
45. Dwight Howard .1766[/b]
46. Walt Frazier* .1760
47. Reggie Miller* .1758
48. Chauncey Billups .1756
49. Bobby Jones .1752
50. Bob Lanier* .1751
51. Artis Gilmore* .1737
52. Clyde Drexler* .1734
[b]53. Kobe Bryant .1726[/b]
54. Larry Nance .1713
55. Vern Mikkelsen* .1699
[b]56. Pau Gasol .1696[/b]
57. Amar'e Stoudemire .1694

[b]defensive win shares career leader[/b] ([url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._career.html):[/url]

NBA
Rank Player DWS
1. Bill Russell* 133.64
[b]2. Tim Duncan 105.20[/b]
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 94.49
4. Hakeem Olajuwon* 94.47
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 93.92
6. Karl Malone* 92.41
[b]7. Kevin Garnett 91.52[/b]
8. Elvin Hayes* 83.65
9. Patrick Ewing* 81.42
10. David Robinson* 80.14
11. Jason Kidd 75.14
12. John Havlicek* 74.09
13. Robert Parish* 72.98
14. Ben Wallace 70.58
15. Dikembe Mutombo* 68.53
16. Scottie Pippen* 67.29
17. Shaquille O'Neal 66.36
18. John Stockton* 64.93
19. Michael Jordan* 64.13
20. Wes Unseld* 64.11
21. Charles Oakley 63.34
22. Paul Pierce 62.31
23. Nate Thurmond* 62.23
24. Buck Williams 61.79
25. Shawn Marion 61.27
26. Jack Sikma 60.69
27. Dwight Howard 59.66
28. Larry Bird* 59.03
29. LeBron James 57.14
30. Rasheed Wallace 57.12
[b]31. Dirk Nowitzki 56.89[/b]
32. Dolph Schayes* 56.15
33. Clifford Robinson 55.89
34. Dave Cowens* 55.83
35. Marcus Camby 54.89
36. Dennis Rodman* 54.46
37. Moses Malone* 54.36
38. Charles Barkley* 53.91
39. Vlade Divac 52.90
40. Shawn Kemp 52.17
41. Paul Silas 51.74
[b]42. Kobe Bryant 50.53[/b]


PER career leader ([url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html[/url])

NBA
Rank Player PER
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.61
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.58
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Kevin Durant 24.92
[b]9. Dwyane Wade 24.81[/b]
10. Neil Johnston* 24.69
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
[b]13. Tim Duncan 24.32[/b]
14. Magic Johnson* 24.11
15. Karl Malone* 23.90
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Larry Bird* 23.50
18. Oscar Robertson* 23.17
[b]19. Dirk Nowitzki 23.14[/b]
20. Yao Ming 23.02
[b]21. Kobe Bryant 22.98[/b]

[QUOTE=masonanddixon]So Duncan, Kobe, and lebron had far better supporting casts yet the Almighty got it done with half the talent.

[url]http://thesmokingcuban.com/2016/02/12/lack-of-all-star-talent-around-dirk-nowitzki-further-evidence-of-his-greatness/[/url][/QUOTE]

So in other words Dirk would need 30 all stars to match Kobe's 5 rings with 15.

:confusedshrug:

not only are you lying in the OP and leaving out all stars for Dirk, you're counting all stars who were scrubs at the time they played.

how about this?

MVP's played with

Dirk = 2

Kobe = 1

Lebron = 1

[QUOTE=pastis]Melo is the biggest chocker the world has ever seen since the fall of france in 1940[/QUOTE]

Laughed harder than I should have.

Dirk couldn't even make it to the finals with a stacked superteam of multiple allstars:

[IMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/76/85/f3/7685f3e666c950044b1514b86268a25b.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0512/dal_g_antoine_200.jpg[/IMG]


2004 Mavs Roster:

Dirk
Nash
Finley
Antwan Walker
Antoine Jamison
Josh Howard

Coach: Don Nelson

Final Tally: 6 All-star Level Players (2 HOFs/MVPs in Nash and Dirk). THREE 20 and 10 allstars in their prime (Dirk, Walker, Jamison). And a HOF Coach in Don Nelson.

PATHETIC!!! :roll:

[QUOTE=IllegalD]Dirk couldn't even make it to the finals with a stacked superteam of multiple allstars:

[IMG]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/76/85/f3/7685f3e666c950044b1514b86268a25b.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0512/dal_g_antoine_200.jpg[/IMG]


2004 Mavs Roster:

Dirk
Nash
Finley
Antwan Walker
Antoine Jamison
Josh Howard

Coach: Don Nelson

Final Tally: 6 All-star Level Players (2 HOFs/MVPs in Nash and Dirk). THREE 20 and 10 allstars in their prime (Dirk, Walker, Jamison). And a HOF Coach in Don Nelson.

PATHETIC!!! :roll:[/QUOTE]


In 2004 Playoffs , Dirk had 27.5 PER ( Mvp level ) , Nash had 15.5 (average) and Finley had 10 ( which is below than average ) .

Deal with it :durantunimpressed: .

Aldridge should not count for Duncan.

[QUOTE=feyki]In 2004 Playoffs , Dirk had 27.5 PER ( Mvp level ) , Nash had 15.5 (average) and Finley had 10 ( which is below than average ) .

Deal with it :durantunimpressed: .[/QUOTE]


2005 = Dirk's former sidekick wins MVP and eliminated Dirk's team from the playoffs

if that happened to Lebron or Kobe they would be killed for that

[QUOTE=DaOldLion]2005 = Dirk's former sidekick wins MVP and eliminated Dirk's team from the playoffs

if that happened to Lebron or Kobe they would be killed for that[/QUOTE]


2005 was close race between of Nash and Shaq . And Shaq took his team to ECF , while Kobe tanking to the deep .

[QUOTE=feyki]2005 was close race between of Nash and Shaq . And Shaq took his to ECF , while Kobe tanking to the deep .[/QUOTE]

ok? way to not comment on a single thing I said. I don't care about the Lakers so that insecure fan-boy shit that every single ISH member tries to pull isn't going to work, sorry buddy.

Dirk's sidekick left him and won b2b MVP's and even knocked Dirk out of the playoffs in 05. GTFO about no help. If Lebron or Kobe's sidekick left him, won b2b MVP's and beat him in the playoffs do you think ANYBODY would claim that either of those guys didn't have any help? Nope.

My bad , Kobe was sidekick .

[QUOTE=feyki]In 2004 Playoffs , Dirk had 27.5 PER ( Mvp level ) , Nash had 15.5 (average) and Finley had 10 ( which is below than average ) .

Deal with it :durantunimpressed: .[/QUOTE]

You only used PER to measure the players :lol

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]You only used PER to measure the players :lol[/QUOTE]

Nash and Finley shot 38% from the field. Finley shot 25 % from three. Antoine walker shot is usual 36% from the floor:applause:
Marquis daniels was the second best mavs player this series

[QUOTE=feyki]In 2004 Playoffs , Dirk had 27.5 PER ( Mvp level ) , Nash had 15.5 (average) and Finley had 10 ( which is below than average ) .

Deal with it :durantunimpressed: .[/QUOTE]

you only use PER to judge players, pathetic.

[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]You only used PER to measure the players :lol[/QUOTE]

Basics enough for dummies .

[QUOTE=DaOldLion]ok? way to not comment on a single thing I said. I don't care about the Lakers so that insecure fan-boy shit that every single ISH member tries to pull isn't going to work, sorry buddy.

Dirk's sidekick left him and won b2b MVP's and even knocked Dirk out of the playoffs in 05. GTFO about no help. If Lebron or Kobe's sidekick left him, won b2b MVP's and beat him in the playoffs do you think ANYBODY would claim that either of those guys didn't have any help? Nope.[/QUOTE]

i dont know whats your problem.

2003 they went to the WCF and lost the Spurs. Dirk injured.

2004 playoffs:

In 2004 Playoffs , Dirk had 27.5 PER ( Mvp level ) , Nash had 15.5 (average) and Finley had 10 ( which is below than average ) .
Nash and Finley shot 38% from the field. Finley shot 25 % from three. Antoine walker shot is usual 36% from the floor
Marquis daniels was the second best mavs player this series

Whats your problem?

[QUOTE=feyki]Basics enough for dummies .[/QUOTE]
Neil Johnston > KAJ.

:applause:

[QUOTE=Showtime2001]Neil Johnston > KAJ.

:applause:[/QUOTE]

Of course . Kareem who ?

[QUOTE=pastis]i dont know whats your problem.

2003 they went to the WCF and lost the Spurs. Dirk injured.

2004 playoffs:

In 2004 Playoffs , Dirk had 27.5 PER ( Mvp level ) , Nash had 15.5 (average) and Finley had 10 ( which is below than average ) .
Nash and Finley shot 38% from the field. Finley shot 25 % from three. Antoine walker shot is usual 36% from the floor
Marquis daniels was the second best mavs player this series

Whats your problem?[/QUOTE]

So what you're saying is that Dirk didn't make his teammates better? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=IllegalD]So what you're saying is that Dirk didn't make his teammates better? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Yes , Amare > Dirk .

Dirk did have a lot of great teams that he underachieved with.
But he also has one great overachieve in 11

[QUOTE=pastis]Nash and Finley shot 38% from the field. Finley shot 25 % from three. Antoine walker shot is usual 36% from the floor:applause:
Marquis daniels was the second best mavs player this series[/QUOTE]

I remember everyone was pretty shit those Playoffs but using PER as the only measure is dumb. That's like me calling Wade's '06 Finals the GOAT Finals because of his PER.

feyki negged me for that post :lol

[QUOTE=SexSymbol]Dirk did have a lot of great teams that he underachieved with.
But he also has one great overachieve in 11[/QUOTE]

tell me which great team he had and underarchieved from 2005 until now?

for 2004 playoffs:

In 2004 Playoffs , Dirk had 27.5 PER ( Mvp level ) , Nash had 15.5 (average) and Finley had 10 ( which is below than average ) .
Nash and Finley shot 38% from the field. Finley shot 25 % from three. Antoine walker shot is usual 36% from the floor
Marquis daniels was the second best mavs player this series


2003:
2003 they went to the WCF and lost the Spurs. Dirk injured.

[QUOTE=pastis]tell me which great team he had and underarchieved from 2005 until now?

for 2004 playoffs:

In 2004 Playoffs , Dirk had 27.5 PER ( Mvp level ) , Nash had 15.5 (average) and Finley had 10 ( which is below than average ) .
Nash and Finley shot 38% from the field. Finley shot 25 % from three. Antoine walker shot is usual 36% from the floor
Marquis daniels was the second best mavs player this series


2003:
2003 they went to the WCF and lost the Spurs. Dirk injured.[/QUOTE]

howard
stackhouse
harris
terry

pretty stacked lineup lost as 1 seed to an 8 seed

dirk put up 19.7/11.3/2.3 on 38/21/84

[QUOTE=MellowYellow]howard
stackhouse
harris
terry

pretty stacked lineup lost as 1 seed to an 8 seed

dirk put up 19.7/11.3/2.3 on 38/21/84[/QUOTE]

yes, this is the only year. but again, this team is not great and never ever should have won 67 games. never. it was just because of dirk.

and the playoffs, yea this was bad for dirk, but people forget that dirks father had an heart operation and was on the intensive care unit the time of the series. dirk is such an emotional guy.

how many more years have Duncan and Kobe played....and you can't consider Malone, Payton and Nash all-stars when they went to LA, those guys were washed....and who cares about NVE and Eddie Jones when Kobe was just coming to the league at 17 yrs old and the Lakers pretty much had no title hopes, Bynum in 2012 is useless as well when he was playing on one knee and Lakers had no bench and Mike Brown...zero title hopes there.. We should talk about how players came short in the years they should have won.

Kobe's title teams all only had one other all-star on the team besides him, Lebron's title teams had two, Duncan either had one (D-Rob) or he had Manu and Parker, and a bunch of great role players who carried him in 2014...


I don't see the point in totalling up every name who might have not even been all-star the year they played with the guys to make some kind of a point....it's always a team effort but that has never been the argument here IMO, it's about which star elevates their team the highest and who had the most success with the tools they were given. Kobe and Duncan are pretty much a tie in terms of winning 5 rings with Kobe making 7 Finals to Duncan's 6, though Duncan only made 4 Finals as a star player...

At the end of the day, Lebron has had plenty of help and as many opportunities as Duncan/Kobe to win more titles with the amount of Finals appearances he already has...he was lucky not to be 1/6, could have even been 0/6 had refs not robbed OKC in Game 2 2012 but I digress..

[QUOTE=ImKobe]how many more years have Duncan and Kobe played....and you can't consider Malone, Payton and Nash all-stars when they went to LA, those guys were washed....and who cares about NVE and Eddie Jones when Kobe was just coming to the league at 17 yrs old and the Lakers pretty much had no title hopes

[B]Kobe's title teams all only had one other all-star on the team besides him, Lebron's title teams had two, Duncan either had one (D-Rob) or he had Manu and Parker, and a bunch of great role players who carried him in 2014...[/B][/QUOTE]

I love how these kobe tards say stupid bullshit like "great role players who carried him" when it comes to Duncan...he averaged 15/10 while being one of the better defensive players on the Spurs against the Heat...but he was carried. You kobe stans are just ****ing pathetic. He was the 2nd leading scorer in that playoff run while leading the team in per...but the role players carried him...****ing kobe mutts :facepalm

[QUOTE=SexSymbol]Dirk did have a lot of great teams that he underachieved with.
But he also has one great overachieve in 11[/QUOTE]

Dirk had once time great team . And that was 2003 ( he got injured in game 3 and didn't play rest of series ) .

2006 and 2007 was good teams but not great . 2011 was close to great . But i think that was more close to good .

Don't forget , Dirk averaged 32 points with %70 TS against Thunder . And that series was close . If Dirk didn't play like super shooter , Thunder would made the finals .

[QUOTE=sportjames23]Fix'd for veracity.[/QUOTE]
Hes right Wade choked. Wade choked Lebron in the locker room when he made the team lost in 2011

[QUOTE=SexSymbol]Dirk did have a lot of great teams that he underachieved with.
But he also has one great overachieve in 11[/QUOTE]

Other than 07...what teams?

Even 07...go look at the Warriors roster and the Mavs roster. The Warriors roster is just better and they matched up much better against the Mavs and had a far better coach.

Dirk deserves a lot of blame for his play in that series whether they lost or won, but when you are getting run off the court in blow outs...it's a team problem...not a single player problem.

Dirk actually played a fine overall first 5 games of that series (he alone saved the Mavs from losing in game 5)...it was the final game that kind of skews his overall stats/play in that series.

But what other years?

All you will find is a bunch of good teams with little to no chance to win the title or make much noise in the playoffs most years. Inept coaching, flawed rosters, poorly defined roles...etc.

Like someone else mentioned...the only truly great team in terms of talent the Mavs ever had around Dirk was that 03 team. And that was a pre peak Dirk and Dirk got hurt in the WCF...a series that would have gone 7 and the Mavs were essentially a coinflip to win the title.

As for this thread.

Yes...Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq have all played with far more help and better coaching and have had much better chances to win titles. Obvious...

[QUOTE=Smoke117]I love how these kobe tards say stupid bullshit like "great role players who carried him" when it comes to Duncan...he averaged 15/10 while being one of the better defensive players on the Spurs against the Heat...but he was carried. You kobe stans are just ****ing pathetic. He was the 2nd leading scorer in that playoff run while leading the team in per...but the role players carried him...****ing kobe mutts :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Duncan wasn't a star player, he wasn't the player the team depended to play heavy minutes every night for them to win. Kobe's team depended on him more at the end of the day compared to how the Spurs were playing in 2014....you can't deny this shit.

Spurs were sitting out Duncan and playing him 30 minutes a game and they coasted to the #1 record en route to a dominant Playoff run because of everyone they had on the roster.

All you do is curse at me and say 15/10 like it compares to Kobe putting up 29 a game for his 5th title :oldlol:

You want to compare Kobe's 5th vs Duncan's?

Numbers by Playoff series

Kobe:

OKC: 24/4/4
UTA: 32/4/6
PHX: 34/7/8
BOS: 29/8/4

overall: 29/6/6 1.3 spg 0.7 bpg 40.1 mpg 46%FG 37%3PT

Duncan:

DAL: 17/8
POR: 14/8
OKC: 18/10
MIA: 15/10

overall: 16/9 52%FG 1.3 bpg 32.7 MPG

It's not even close :oldlol:, Spurs killed teams with their ball movement and 3pt shooting and the depth they had from the bench, which is why they beat Miami because Heat didn't have anyone off the bench to rely on and Lebron couldn't do it all on his own...Pau played really well in 2010 Finals at home but Spurs had 2 guys averaging more points than Duncan (TP 18/5 48%, Kawhi 18/6 61%) and they shot 47% from 3 as a team with 55 threes made in 5 games...2010 Lakers had 20 less 3PM over the course of 7 games and they attempted more shots...their best 3pt shooter MWP made 11 out of 32 while Spurs had kawhi go 11-19, Manu 10-24, Mills 13-23...Green 9-20..

let's be real for a second :kobe:

[QUOTE=MellowYellow]howard
stackhouse
harris
terry

pretty stacked lineup lost as 1 seed to an 8 seed

dirk put up 19.7/11.3/2.3 on 38/21/84[/QUOTE]
That isn't that stacked.

[QUOTE=feyki]Yes , Amare > Dirk .[/QUOTE]
:biggums:

[QUOTE=Town's Town]:biggums:[/QUOTE]

Irony ..