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[QUOTE=Bosnian Sajo]How young are you?[/QUOTE]
I'm 22.
But I'm not American.
I've been following European Basketball for quite some time.
Since about 2008, When I was about 13-14 years old.
Even went to some games.
I've only started watching the NBA a few years ago.
[QUOTE=aj1987]
Dirk's teams are getting hella underrated now. Either Dirk had significantly more impact than Kobe or he had great impact and a very good team around him. You don't win 67 games with below par help. A lot of those teams he had are vastly underrated.
[/QUOTE]
LeBron won 66 games with a **** squad. And that 67 win team Dirk had JET and Josh Howard as its #2 and #3 options. Howard was good for a few years. But he wasn't THAT good. And JET... well no.
And Dirk DOES have 27 more WS in fewer years than Kobe. And his RAPM is significantly higher as well. And those are about the biggest sample sizes you will ever see.
[QUOTE=aj1987]In the WC, fool. Isn't that what you were talking about in the first place? Yeah, I did forget Nash.
Dirk's teams are getting hella underrated now. Either Dirk had significantly more impact than Kobe or he had great impact and a very good team around him. You don't win 67 games with below par help. A lot of those teams he had are vastly underrated.
Strictly scoring? I'll pick Wade over Dirk. Running an offense and scoring? Dirk has no case over Wade. Sure, Dirk might've better advanced metrics than Wade. I wouldn't doubt that for a second. Advanced metrics historically haven't been kind to Wade.
EDIT: Just checked.
OBPM (career):
Wade - 4.3
Dirk - 3.4
OBPM (peak):
Wade - 8.7
Career - 5.8
I really hate those "advanced" metrics though.[/QUOTE]
see I disagree but I don't want to sound like AW. Those teams were not shit like 06 Lakers or 09 Heat or even 09 Cavs but they didn't have championship level talent. If they were, his peak be put at lebron's level. Still,leading those teams to 4th, 1st, and 2nd in ortg from 05-07 is damn impressive you gotta admit. Running an offense is still in wade's favor since he's been a better playmaker but I'm just talking being an offense anchor. Dirk's spacing effect is GOAT level. Wade's spacing effect is underrated if you just look at him not being a 3pt shooter as you have shown in previous posts but it's still not at Dirk's level. Also what about Malone? He has stats as good as almost anyone and obviously better than Dirk(a 30+ppg season, 12 25ppg+ seasons, almost identical career ts%). I'm guessing you're not as sure about that one however. Dirk's spacing opens up the floor for everyone else. Small examples include how like Monta/Dirk and Terry/Dirk were always near the top for most effective pnr duo's. I'm going steal a post from colts18 on realGM who uses +/- stats which are affected a lot by context but still pretty useful.
[QUOTE=colts18]
2001: 53 wins, 4th in O rating
-11.3 off, +20.1 plus/minus
109.4 O rating on court, 99.9 off, +9.5
2002- 57 wins, 1st in O rating
-3.0 off, +10.3 plus/minus
114.6 O Rating on court, 105.1 off, +9.5
2003-60 wins, 1st in O rating
Dirk: -8.8 off court, +21.7 Plus/minus
113.7 O rating on, 99.4 off, +14.3
2004- 52 wins, 1st in O rating: Rated the #1 offense of all-time by O rating
-2.0 off court, +9.2 plus/minus
113.9 O rating on, 106.8 off, +7.1
2005- 58 wins, 4th in O rating
DIrk: -6 off court, +15.3
112.1 O rating on court, 102 off, +12.1 in offense
2006- 60 wins, 1st in O rating
Dirk: -0.6 off court, +8.5
115.4 O rating on court, 104.5 off, +10.9
2007-67 wins, 2nd in O rating
Dirk: -1.6 off court, +12.4
116.6 O rating on court, 101.9 off, +14.7
Very much a deserved MVP
2008- 51 wins, 8th in O rating
Dirk: -4.4 off court, +12.7
115.6 O rating on court, 104 off, +11.6
2009- 50 wins, 5th in O rating
Dirk: -4.2 off court, +8
112.9 O rating on court, 106.3 off, +6.6
2010- 55 wins, 10th in O rating
Dirk: -6.2 off court, +11.7
111.6 O rating on court, 106.1 off, +5.5
2011- 57 wins, 8th in O rating
Dirk: -6.1 off court, +16.3
114.4 O rating on court, 104.3 off, +10.1
So here are Dirk's averages
56.4 wins, 4.1 in O rating (4 #1 finishes, 8 top 5, 11/11 in top 10)
-5.1 Off court, +13.9 +/- (He's +14.1 if you include 2012 into this)
113.3 O rating on court, 102.3 off, +11 on offense
That's right, in every single season plus minus is available, Dirk's team has been a negative when he was off the court. He won 50+ games in every single one of those seasons, yet every single season they sucked without him especially on offense. That +11 on offense puts him up there with MJ and Nash as the GOAT of offense [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]Remember when there was a thread about how BigKAT was the best poster on the board? Good times. After this thread he is more likely to be in the "dumbest things said at ISH".
[B]Dirk is every bit the worker that Kobe is[/B]. He just isn't as self congratulatory about it. That 2006 team that he carried to the Finals, do you know who was 2nd on the team in WS? Jason Terry. That is the kind of roster he has carried to the Finals. Or in 2011 when he won a title, who was the second best player on that team? He has a MVP and a FMVP.
Dirk is an ALL TIME GREAT. If you haven't recognized it by now go back and look. He is 6th all time in points. 7th all time in WS (and could get to 5th behind only MJ, Kareem, Wilt and Karl). His team has won more games over the years than you could expect nearly ANYONE to carry those mediocre rosters to.[/QUOTE]
I'm not even a Kobe fan, but I'd take Kobe 10 times out of 10 over Dirk, despite Lakers missing the playoffs (which the Mavs have done also). Just a better all around player.
And to be fair, in 2006-2007 Josh Howard emerged as an All-Star and Avery Johnson won COTY the year prior while turning the Mavs into a team that actually played elite defense (Avery coming from the Spurs' camp, even admitting to adapting some of the playbook)... Josh Howard at the time was drawing comparisons to Manu Ginobili in terms of impact right here on ISH.
The 2006 Mavs won 60 games and 2007 Mavs won 67 games and it generally takes a good, cohesive [I]team[/I] to win that much.
I don't think anyone would claim he had the best or most stacked teams ever, but it would be disingenuous to say Dirk's best teams were "mediocre" based on only his #2 option. His best teams were deep. Dude played with Nash like 12 months before Nash won multiple MVP's
How many GM's over the years said they would have liked to start their team with Dirk above all other players?
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]see I disagree but I don't want to sound like AW. Those teams were not shit like 06 Lakers or 09 Heat or even 09 Cavs but they didn't have championship level talent. If they did, his peak be put at lebron's level. Still,leading those teams to 4th, 1st, and 2nd in ortg from 05-07 is damn impressive you gotta admit. Running an offense is still in wade's favor since he's been a better playmaker but I'm just talking being an offense anchor.[/quote]
Come on, dude. Peak Dirk wasn't on prime LeBron's level. Prime/peak LeBron/Wade the among the best scorers and defenders in the league, while also being elite passers.
Also, it's quite difficult to quantify Wade's offense with ORtg, as he has never really played with on a good team (outside his prime and without Shaq/LeBron).
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Dirk's spacing effect is GOAT level. Wade's spacing effect is underrated if you just look at him not being a 3pt shooter as you have shown in previous posts but it's still not at Dirk's level. [/quote]
Actually, Wade was ranked 10th in respect rating and Dirk 47th.
To recap, gravity score measures how closely a player's defender sticks to him off the ball. Higher gravity scores generally belong to bigs because their primary defender must stay close and also protect the basket. On the other hand, guards typically have lower gravity scores simply because defenders have more liberty to shade off their guy on the perimeter. But elite shooters typically generate more attention off the ball.
Then there's distraction score, which quantifies how much a player's defender is willing to help off the ball to stop the ball handler. The worse he is as a shooter, the more likely his defender will be distracted by the ball handler. To identify the most effective floor-spacers in the NBA, I created a composite score that combines the two metrics. The result is what I've called "respect rating," which has now been translated to a 1-to-100 scale with 100 being the most magnetic (think sharpshooters) and 1 being least magnetic (think non-scoring bigs).
1. Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 97.9
Gravity score: 97.3 | Distraction score: 98.4
2. Kyle Korver, Atlanta Hawks | Respect rating: 96.0
Gravity score: 92.3 | Distraction score: 99.7
3. Klay Thompson, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 94.4
Gravity score: 89.6 | Distraction score: 99.1
4. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies | Respect rating: 87.5
Gravity score: 79.3 | Distraction score: 95.7
5. Gordon Hayward, Utah Jazz | Respect rating: 84.0
Gravity score: 72.1 | Distraction score: 95.9
6. James Harden, Houston Rockets | Respect rating: 83.3
Gravity score: 67.2 | Distraction score: 99.3
7. J.R. Smith, New York Knicks | Respect rating: 83.0
Gravity score: 89.0 | Distraction score: 76.9
8. Jamal Crawford, Los Angeles Clippers | Respect rating: 81.6
Gravity score: 67.9 | Distraction score: 95.2
9. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs | Respect rating: 81.4
Gravity score: 65.4 | Distraction score: 97.3
10. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat | Respect rating: 79.7
Gravity score: 82.2 | Distraction score: 77.1
Once again, Wade is the interesting outlier to the idea that it's typically 3pt shooters dominating this list, because he's such a crafty and opportunistic off-ball slasher and defenses key in on him even more with LeBron gone. JR Smith might be small-sample-size noise (he's barely above the 500 minute cut-off and ranked 118th last year).
Curry, Korver, and Klay are just in a class of their own in Gravity score (aside from JR's probably fluke-ish score), with Curry being even significantly higher than the other two. But Curry's only 4th in "Distraction" score; no one touches Korver there and so far it's actually Harden whom defenses have been second least likely to help off of.
He theorizes that the max contracts may have something to do with Klay's (only up 5 spots but definitely on another tier now) and Hayward's (24th to 5th) leaps up the rankings, though I disagree because we know Klay's taken his game to another level and Hayward's been much better from downtown. Plus, I don't know where he ranked before but Chandler Parsons is waaaaay down the list (see below). He also notes drop-offs from Chris Paul and JJ Redick from the top 20 last year to outside of the top 50 in Gravity (possibly due to a big increase in long 2s from Griffin)
Notables: Kobe Bryant (13th); Derrick Rose (14th); Carmelo Anthony (31st); Russell Westbrook (39th); Chris Paul (45th); Dirk Nowitzki (47th); LaMarcus Aldridge (72nd); LeBron James (73rd); Tony Parker (77th); Chris Bosh (86th); Kyrie Irving (97th); Lance Stephenson (99th); Anthony Davis (114th); Monta Ellis (168th); Kevin Love (177th); Rajon Rondo (182nd); Tony Allen (188th); Chandler Parsons (211st); Elfrid Payton (223rd).
Heck, Wade was getting doubled and tripled a hella lot even in the PO's last season. A completely out of his prime Wade.
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Also what about Malone? He has stats as good as almost anyone and obviously better than Dirk(a 30+ppg season, 12 25ppg+ seasons, almost identical career ts%). I'm guessing you're not as sure about that one however. Dirk's spacing opens up the floor for everyone else. Small examples include how like Monta/Dirk and Terry/Dirk were always near the top for most effective pnr duo's. I'm going steal a post from colts18 on realGM who uses +/- stats which are affected a lot by context but still pretty useful.[/QUOTE]
If you picked them in a vacuum and were told to build teams around them to win a ring, it'd be easier to build around Malone. Malone is an elite scorer, rebounder, defender, and is actually quite a capable passer as well. He's a more well rounded player than Dirk.
[QUOTE=aj1987]Come on, dude. Peak Dirk wasn't on prime LeBron's level. Prime/peak LeBron/Wade the among the best scorers and defenders in the league, while also being elite passers.
Also, it's quite difficult to quantify Wade's offense with ORtg, as he has never really played with on a good team (outside his prime and without Shaq/LeBron).
Actually, Wade was ranked 10th in respect rating and Dirk 47th.
To recap, gravity score measures how closely a player's defender sticks to him off the ball. Higher gravity scores generally belong to bigs because their primary defender must stay close and also protect the basket. On the other hand, guards typically have lower gravity scores simply because defenders have more liberty to shade off their guy on the perimeter. But elite shooters typically generate more attention off the ball.
Then there's distraction score, which quantifies how much a player's defender is willing to help off the ball to stop the ball handler. The worse he is as a shooter, the more likely his defender will be distracted by the ball handler. To identify the most effective floor-spacers in the NBA, I created a composite score that combines the two metrics. The result is what I've called "respect rating," which has now been translated to a 1-to-100 scale with 100 being the most magnetic (think sharpshooters) and 1 being least magnetic (think non-scoring bigs).
1. Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 97.9
Gravity score: 97.3 | Distraction score: 98.4
2. Kyle Korver, Atlanta Hawks | Respect rating: 96.0
Gravity score: 92.3 | Distraction score: 99.7
3. Klay Thompson, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 94.4
Gravity score: 89.6 | Distraction score: 99.1
4. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies | Respect rating: 87.5
Gravity score: 79.3 | Distraction score: 95.7
5. Gordon Hayward, Utah Jazz | Respect rating: 84.0
Gravity score: 72.1 | Distraction score: 95.9
6. James Harden, Houston Rockets | Respect rating: 83.3
Gravity score: 67.2 | Distraction score: 99.3
7. J.R. Smith, New York Knicks | Respect rating: 83.0
Gravity score: 89.0 | Distraction score: 76.9
8. Jamal Crawford, Los Angeles Clippers | Respect rating: 81.6
Gravity score: 67.9 | Distraction score: 95.2
9. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs | Respect rating: 81.4
Gravity score: 65.4 | Distraction score: 97.3
10. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat | Respect rating: 79.7
Gravity score: 82.2 | Distraction score: 77.1
Once again, Wade is the interesting outlier to the idea that it's typically 3pt shooters dominating this list, because he's such a crafty and opportunistic off-ball slasher and defenses key in on him even more with LeBron gone. JR Smith might be small-sample-size noise (he's barely above the 500 minute cut-off and ranked 118th last year).
Curry, Korver, and Klay are just in a class of their own in Gravity score (aside from JR's probably fluke-ish score), with Curry being even significantly higher than the other two. But Curry's only 4th in "Distraction" score; no one touches Korver there and so far it's actually Harden whom defenses have been second least likely to help off of.
He theorizes that the max contracts may have something to do with Klay's (only up 5 spots but definitely on another tier now) and Hayward's (24th to 5th) leaps up the rankings, though I disagree because we know Klay's taken his game to another level and Hayward's been much better from downtown. Plus, I don't know where he ranked before but Chandler Parsons is waaaaay down the list (see below). He also notes drop-offs from Chris Paul and JJ Redick from the top 20 last year to outside of the top 50 in Gravity (possibly due to a big increase in long 2s from Griffin)
Notables: Kobe Bryant (13th); Derrick Rose (14th); Carmelo Anthony (31st); Russell Westbrook (39th); Chris Paul (45th); Dirk Nowitzki (47th); LaMarcus Aldridge (72nd); LeBron James (73rd); Tony Parker (77th); Chris Bosh (86th); Kyrie Irving (97th); Lance Stephenson (99th); Anthony Davis (114th); Monta Ellis (168th); Kevin Love (177th); Rajon Rondo (182nd); Tony Allen (188th); Chandler Parsons (211st); Elfrid Payton (223rd).
Heck, Wade was getting doubled and tripled a hella lot even in the PO's last season. A completely out of his prime Wade.
If you picked them in a vacuum and were told to build teams around them to win a ring, it'd be easier to build around Malone. Malone is an elite scorer, rebounder, defender, and is actually quite a capable passer as well. He's a more well rounded player than Dirk.[/QUOTE]
well I said Dirk wasn't on peak Lebron's level to kind of agree with you about Dirk's supporting cast not being shit.
I agree, it is hard to judge Wade off offensive rating since he's had shit teams but Kobe leading the Lakers to 8th in 06 and Tmac leading the Magic to 10th in 03 are things to keep in mind since most people find those supporting casts comparable.
Seeing how Curry, Korver, and Klay are at the top, these scores are most likely from the past 2 years. I'm far more interested in seeing what Dirk and Wade's gravity scores were in their primes(doubt they exist). Author also mentioned how Wade gets more respect with lebron gone so ofc there's context that needs to be taken into account.
Can't really argue with your logic for Malone but I was asking more, who would you take as just an offensive player.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Underachiever? Historically?
Nah.
A few of his teams have underachieved though. Don't see how anybody rational can dispute that.[/QUOTE]
yup i agree with this
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]well I said Dirk wasn't on peak Lebron's level to kind of agree with you about Dirk's supporting cast not being shit.
I agree, it is hard to judge Wade off offensive rating since he's had shit teams but Kobe leading the Lakers to 8th in 06 and Tmac leading the Magic to 10th in 03 are things to keep in mind since most people find those supporting casts comparable. [/quote]
Sure, as I said, "advanced" metrics are not particularly kind towards Wade (except PER). Also, LO on the '06 Lakers was better than any player than Wade had. The TEAMS had better ORtg, but when you look at the players' ORtg:
Wade in '09 & '10 - 114
McGrady in '03 - 116
Kobe in '06 - 114
None of them have particularly good ORtg's. Never topped 120 in their careers either.
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Seeing how Curry, Korver, and Klay are at the top, these scores are most likely from the past 2 years. I'm far more interested in seeing what Dirk and Wade's gravity scores were in their primes(doubt they exist). Author also mentioned how Wade gets more respect with lebron gone so ofc there's context that needs to be taken into account.[/quote]
That list is from '14. Wade was past him prime as well and was limited. Dude also made 9 3's the entire season. Dirk topped that within the first 5 games of the season and went on to average 22 on 60% TS. Even then, Wade was garnering more defensive attention than Dirk.
Yeah, I do agree with you though. I wish there was this for all seasons, dating back to '00.
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Can't really argue with your logic for Malone but I was asking more, who would you take as just an offensive player.[/QUOTE]
Over Dirk and in today's game? It's really close but probably not. Dirk would be more valuable with his 3pt shot, IMO. In the '90's? Malone in a heartbeat. Of course, this is ignoring their defense, rebounding, and passing.
Maybe he is.....
I'll just leave this here.... a 38 year old Dirk getting ready for the season.
[url]https://twitter.com/tim_cato/status/790966235991113728[/url]
[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]Maybe he is.....
I'll just leave this here.... a 38 year old Dirk getting ready for the season.
[url]https://twitter.com/tim_cato/status/790966235991113728[/url][/QUOTE]
Well, he is arguably the GOAT midrange shooter. Dude has something like a 47% career average from midrange, peaking at 53%. :eek: :eek: