When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?

[QUOTE=egokiller]Title of the thread says "championship" and you start talking about "showing up".

:roll:[/QUOTE]
i answered a stupid question with an equally stupid one tbfh. I'd have answered why'd you abandon your old account if you were the one asking. foh.

[QUOTE=3ball]Lebron beat his conference earlier because it was weak, but he couldn't beat the [U]league[/U] earlier because he's inferior to MJ - the league is the proper barometer and it accounts for a weak conference

MJ dominated the league like lebron dominates the East because his skill allowed the best brand of ball movement basketball that yields the best teams.. So it didn't matter who MJ faced in the Finals - his Finals teams were juggernauts that would never be 3/9 regardless of opponent

Otoh, guys like Lebron/Nash/CP3 can't play the ball movement brand because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)[/QUOTE]
You asked about elevation of a young team, well smart fella Mj was adding top 10 picks for damn near 5 years. Lebron just one. Let that sink in.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?




oh the 2018 cavs......:oldlol:[/QUOTE]


welp

issa wrap

[QUOTE=egokiller]Title of the thread says "championship" and you start talking about "showing up".

:roll:[/QUOTE]


str8 alltin

dispickable garbage human

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

When did anyone else elevate a cast like the 07 Cavs to the finals?

oh the 2018 cavs......

[/QUOTE]
Lebron took 4 years to get that team to the Finals in 07'

And he didn't win the Finals - so he never elevated unestablished players to a championship, like the OP says

Whereas MJ elevated a group of raw, single-digit rookies to a three-peat.. two three-peats

So a pretty big difference

When did MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, does anyone know?

[QUOTE=Manny98]When did MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, does anyone know?[/QUOTE]

Wait so he didn't need an established star (or multiple established stars for that matter) to win? (6 times). He just needed a raw unproven rookie?

When did Bran do that again?

Thanks.

Jordan didn't win until Pippen became an all star...

[QUOTE=Manny98]

When did MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, does anyone know?

[/QUOTE]
Pippen arrived at the right time - MJ was graduating from his 'lottery' stage, where lottery picks like MJ, Lebron, Durant, Curry, etc. typically miss the playoffs their first few seasons before elevating the team to playoff and contender status.

So the Bulls' playoff advance was due to the improvement of MJ to MVP/DPOY in 1988, aka GOAT, and not Pippen's 9 ppg in the 1st Round against Cleveland (MJ 45 ppg).

Ultimately, Lebron took 4 years to get the Cavs to the 07' Finals

But he didn't win the Finals - so he never elevated unestablished players to a championship, like the OP says

Whereas MJ elevated a group of raw, single-digit rookies to a three-peat, and is therefore "far" superior, like Hakeem said.

Ultimately, MJ dominated the league like lebron dominates the East because his skill allowed the best brand of ball movement basketball that yields the best teams.. So it didn't matter who MJ faced in the Finals - his Finals teams were juggernauts that would never be 3/9 regardless of opponent

Otoh, guys like Lebron/Nash/CP3 can't play the ball movement brand because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)

[QUOTE=3ball]Pippen arrived at the right time - MJ was graduating from his 'lottery' stage, where lottery picks like MJ, Lebron, Durant, Curry, etc. typically miss the playoffs their first few seasons before elevating the team to playoff and contender status.

So the Bulls' playoff advance was due to the improvement of MJ to MVP/DPOY in 1988, aka GOAT, and not Pippen's 9 ppg in the 1st Round against Cleveland (MJ 45 ppg).

Ultimately, Lebron took 4 years to get the Cavs to the 07' Finals

But he didn't win the Finals - so he never elevated unestablished players to a championship, like the OP says

Whereas MJ elevated a group of raw, single-digit rookies to a three-peat, and is therefore "far" superior, like Hakeem said.

Ultimately, MJ dominated the league like lebron dominates the East because his skill allowed the best brand of ball movement basketball that yields the best teams.. So it didn't matter who MJ faced in the Finals - his Finals teams were juggernauts that would never be 3/9 regardless of opponent

Otoh, guys like Lebron/Nash/CP3 can't play the ball movement brand because they lack an adequate skillset to score or assist quickly in the midst of the ball moving... So they must dominate the ball to produce, which puts a lower ceiling on their teams.. This is why I rank players like Nash, CP3, and Lebron behind guys like MJ, Bird, and Kobe (the top 3 perimeter players of all time)[/QUOTE]
the question was
When did MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, does anyone know?
give the f*cking answer

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]You asked about elevation of a young team, well smart fella Mj was adding top 10 picks for damn near 5 years. Lebron just one. Let that sink in.[/QUOTE]
In addition to the other [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13784633&postcount=39]slay[/url] I gave to your quote above:

Lebron already had the East two-time all-star center on his team when he entered the league, and also a 14/10 PF, which more than offsets the negligible, immaterial gap in draft positioning that you posted.

[QUOTE=zeerghit]the question was
When did MJ win a playoff series without Pippen, does anyone know?
give the f*cking answer[/QUOTE]
When did Lebron make the playoffs before Larry Hughes' arrival in 06', along with coaching change to COY Mike Brown?

I hope you didn't think the Cavs' improvement from 9-seed lottery in 05', to 4-seed frontrunner in 06' was due to anything other than that

Lebron's stats remained the same from 05' to 08' - they were worse actually on the 2-seeded Finals team in 07' compared to his 05' lottery team.. So apparently it was the addition of a 1st team all-league defender and steals champ (Hughes), along with a coaching change to the COY that turned the Cavs from lottery (05') to contenders (06').

[QUOTE=3ball]Lebron took 4 years to get that team to the Finals in 07'

And he didn't win the Finals - so he never elevated unestablished players to a championship, like the OP says

Whereas MJ elevated a group of raw, single-digit rookies to a three-peat.. two three-peats

So a pretty big difference[/QUOTE]
The timeframe has absolutely nothing to do with my statement. Who has elevated a team like the 07 cavs to the finals? Not 4 years down the road. That year. Mj elevated a team with 4 lotto picks in 5 years to a championship caliber squad. It's 2 completely different situations. But keeping on trying to square peg that round hole fella, it suits you.

edit
[QUOTE=3ball]In addition to the other [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13784633&postcount=39]slay[/url] I gave to your quote above:

Lebron already had the East two-time all-star center on his team when he entered the league, and also a 14/10 PF, which more than offsets the negligible, immaterial gap in draft positioning that you posted.[/QUOTE]
oh wow just saw this ""slay"":roll: you're going to keep answering stupidly and i could continue to match your stupidity but no thanks "slayer":roll:

[QUOTE=3ball]When did Lebron make the playoffs before Larry Hughes' arrival in 06', along with coaching change to COY Mike Brown?

I hope you didn't think the Cavs' improvement from 9-seed lottery in 05', to 4-seed frontrunner in 06' was due to anything other than that

Lebron's stats remained the same from 05' to 08' - they were worse actually on the 2-seeded Finals team in 07' compared to his 05' lottery team.. So apparently it was the addition of a 1st team all-league defender and steals champ (Hughes), along with a coaching change to the COY that turned the Cavs from lottery (05') to contenders (06').[/QUOTE]
i will hellp you
the answer is 0 same amount u played games in d1

.
[U]Stats needed to make Finals:[/U]


[Url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01/gamelog/2001/#19-35-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs]01' Iverson Rounds 1-3[/url]... 32.3.... 4.5.. 6.8.. 38.9 fg
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2007#14-29-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs]07' Lebron' Rounds 1-3[/url]... 25.8.... 8.3.. 8.3.. 43 4 fg
[Url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01/gamelog/2009/#15-32-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs]09' Dwight' Rounds 1-3[/url]... 21.7.. 15.4.. 1.8.. 62.2 fg.
[Url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01/gamelog/2003/#43-56-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs]03' J Kidd Rounds 1-3[/url]..... 20.3.... 8.4.. 8.3.. 42.3 fg



[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

Who has elevated a team like the 07 cavs to the finals?

[/Quote]
Dwight in 09'

AI in 01'

Kidd in 02 and 03


So everyone was doing it in the 00"s decade, not just Lebron..

But even though weak casts were routinely winning the East, Lebron couldn't win in 09/10, so he stacked the deck from 11-18'.. Again - he needed established players because his skillset doesn't elevate unestablished ones


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

Who has elevated a team like the 07 cavs?

[/Quote]
Lebron had a 2 seed that got swept by the Spurs - that's weaker elevation than the 6th seeded bulls going 6 games versus the Bad Boys' in the 89' ECF

Lebron never took a low seed deep in the playoffs, while his high seeds are swept and destroyed by record amount

(bulls were the only team to win 2 games off the 89' bad boys.. whereas the 07' Spurs only swept lebron)


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

Who has elevated a team like the 07 cavs?

[/Quote]
89' Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
07' Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)



[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

MJ elevated a team with 4 lotto picks in 5 years to a championship caliber squad.

[/QUOTE]
MJ elevated raw rookies, while Lebron couldn't elevate a 2-time all-star center or a 22/5/5 steals champ and 1st team all-league defender.. :confusedshrug:

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So that was a LOTTERY roster without Jordan that MJ elevated to 3-peat caliber by 91'

3-peat > getting swept in the Finals in 07'
.

MJ didn't elevate shit, Pippen,Grant were top picks in the draft who were gonna develop into all star level players by their 3rd/4th seasons regardless of MJs input

They got Cartwright as well who averaged 20/8 per 36 prior to joining MJ

LeBron never had a bunch of lottery talent handed to him on a silver platter like MJ did

[QUOTE=Manny98]MJ didn't elevate shit, Pippen,Grant were top picks in the draft who were gonna develop into all star level players by their 3rd/4th seasons regardless of MJs input

They got Cartwright as well who averaged 20/8 per 36 prior to joining MJ

[B][COLOR="Navy"]LeBron never had a bunch of lottery talent handed to him on a silver platter like MJ did[/COLOR][/B]

[/QUOTE]
Lebron just missed the playoffs with more lottery talent than MJ ever had

But unfortunately, lebron never developed players - he needed established guys gifted to him, like 05' Zydrunas > any version of Grant.... and 05' Hughes > 88-89' pip

Lebron did less with more

Then he gets HOF's Wade/Bosh and loses with them... Twice... And by record amount... :facepalm... Otoh, MJ never lost in a full season once Pippen was established... :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=RRR3]3ball,


1. Why did you lie about retiring?

2. Why are you constantly changing your GOAT list? And not even minor changes either.[/QUOTE]

he is mentall ill leave him alone ...

why are you arguing with manny 3ball?

that guys dumber than wheels which is incredible

There

Btw sdot,

Lebron didn't "elevate" his 2-seeded Cavs to a sweep in the 07' Finals - he he [U]carried[/U] them, just like MJ carried a 6 seed to 6 games with the champs in 89' ECF

Neither cast was playing great basketball - lebron and mj simply carried those teams

Otoh, MJ elevated unestablished rookies to play [I]great basketball[/I] in 1990 and 1991... [I]championship[/I] basketball... Whereas lebron can't elevate players because his ball-dominant skillset turns guys into spot-up shooters, so he can only win with established guys that he team-hops to acquire

Who was MJ

[QUOTE=Vino24]Who was MJ

[QUOTE=superduper]Who was Bran's toughest opponent in the first 3 rounds (75% of the playoffs)?[/QUOTE]
You didn

[QUOTE=Vino24]Who was MJ

[QUOTE=superduper]Who was Bran's toughest opponent in the first 3 rounds (75% of the playoffs)?[/QUOTE]
The best team that Jordan faced in his conference that he didn't get swept by were the bad boy Pistons who had a lower SRS than the 2018 Raptors

So by your own logic 2018 Raptors > bad boy pistons :applause:

[QUOTE=paksat]why are you arguing with manny 3ball?

that guys dumber than wheels which is incredible[/QUOTE]

And no one thought that would be possible.

ISH

Where Amazing happens! :banana:

I cut all the useless trash numbers out of your post to get to the meat of it.

[QUOTE=3ball]
Dwight in 09'

AI in 01'

Kidd in 02 and 03

So everyone was doing it in the 00"s decade, not just Lebron..
[/QUOTE]
In 01 Philly had the dpoy, 6moy, 3 allstars. :lol

in 02 and 03 Kidd had a future allstar in martin and also Jefferson but yeah they were young, so you'd actually have a valid point if they had to overcome any team remotely close to the pistons in 07. They played the pistons in their 1st conference finals appearance. The cavs faced them 2 nba finals appearances later and in their 5th straight conference finals appearance.

09 Magic had 3 allstars and hedo, arguably their most important guy on offense didn't make the team.

nice try.

[QUOTE=3ball]
Lebron had a 2 seed that got swept by the Spurs - that's weaker elevation than the 6th seeded bulls going 6 games versus the Bad Boys' in the 89' ECF[/QUOTE]
Well now that you mention it, Mj did have a chance to carry his team to an unlikely finals all the way back in 89. Faced the same scenario as Lebron tied 2-2 going into game 5 with a 1st ever finals berth on the line. I'm sure you know how Mj's game 5 went and how Lebron's game 5 went. One scored 25 of the last 30 in an alltimer and one shot 8 times and quit/disappeared whatever you want to frame it with. I'm sure a Jordan historian such as yourself knew this though.

[QUOTE=3ball]
Lebron never took a low seed deep in the playoffs, while his high seeds are swept and destroyed by record amount

(bulls were the only team to win 2 games off the 89' bad boys.. whereas the 07' Spurs only swept lebron)
[/QUOTE]
I know you didnt actually watch Lebron's career as much as you obsess over him but I'll fill you in on a couple of things.
In 06 semis the Cavs had a chance to eliminate the Pistons and see dwade in the conference finals. They gave up like 4 or 5 offensive rebounds in the last minute of i think a one possession game.

In 08 Lebron's Cav's played down to wire in game 7 against the eventual champion Celtics, the ones that blew Kobe's Lakers off the face of the earth in the finals.

[
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

Well now that you mention it, Mj did have a chance to carry his team to an unlikely finals all the way [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]back in 89.[/COLOR][/B] Faced the same scenario as Lebron tied 2-2 going into game 5 with a 1st ever finals berth on the line. I'm sure you know how Mj's game 5 went and how Lebron's game 5 went.

[/Quote]
Lebron had a 2-seed and was facing a weak 1 seed.. That doesn't compare to MJ's 6 seed facing a goat team

The fact that you compared the 2 shows that you're pretty naive about the game - no one knowledgeable would compare the 07' Pistons to the 89' Pistons

After MJ's rookie year, the weakest team he lost to was the Shaq/Penny Magic during his comeback season in 95' (bad boys and bird's Celtics were the only other losses).. So he never lost to a 53-win team or anyone as weak as the 07' Pistons... MJ's 86' Bulls would've beaten the 07' Pistons, let alone his other teams


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

Well now that you mention it, Mj did have a chance [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]to carry his team to an unlikely finals[/COLOR][/B] all the way back in 89

[/Quote]
It wasn't just 1989

MJ wasn't suppose to make the Finals in 1990 either and Pippen's migraine made sure he didn't - but their 7 game showing against the Pistons showed they would've won the Finals, since the Pistons beat the Blazers in 5 easy games.. Pip's migraine prevented a goat carry-job ring and a 4-peat

(538 still views MJ's 1991 and 1993 rings as the weakest casts to ever win, aside from Dirk in 11' and Hakeem in 94'


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]In 08 Lebron's Cav's[/COLOR][/B] played down to wire in game 7 against the eventual champion Celtics, the ones that blew Kobe's Lakers off the face of the earth in the finals.

[/QUOTE]

[U]Lebron in 2008 ECSF vs Celtics[/U]


[INDENT][I]26 ppg on 35%[/I][/INDENT]


So the 08' Cavs took the Celtics 7 games IN SPITE of lebron's horrid showing - their defense held the Celtics far below their normal averages and turned the series into a slow, grind-out series

Obviously, the Cavs win easily if lebron gets 26 on 45%... That's a pretty low bar, but lebron couldn't clear it.


[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

I know [B][COLOR="DarkRed"]you didnt actually watch Lebron's career[/COLOR][/B] as much as you obsess over him but I'll fill you in on a couple of things.

[B][COLOR="Navy"]In 06 semis[/COLOR][/B] the Cavs had a chance to eliminate the Pistons and see dwade in the conference finals. They gave up like 4 or 5 offensive rebounds in the last minute of i think a one possession game.

[/QUOTE]
I watched Lebron avidly through the 11' Finals, and probably know his pre-decision career much better than you.

Regarding 2006 - lebron's 4 seed lost in the 2nd round - it's neither here nor there - MJ's runs in 89' and 90' are bigger carry jobs than anything Lebron ever did so who cares



[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

In 01 Philly had the dpoy, 6moy, 3 allstars. :lol

in 02 and 03 Kidd had a future allstar in martin and also Jefferson but yeah they were young, so you'd actually have a valid point if they had to overcome any team remotely close to the pistons in 07. They played the pistons in their 1st conference finals appearance. The cavs faced them 2 nba finals appearances later and in their 5th straight conference finals appearance.

09 Magic had 3 allstars and hedo, arguably their most important guy on offense didn't make the team.

nice try.

[/Quote]
- You're mistaken on the facts - Sixers didn't have 3 all-stars - they only had dikembe, who was a defensive player sharing 2nd option duties with Aaron McKie (Mo Williams >>>).. Everyone knew AI was carrying a weak roster on his back, which is why AI's stats matched or exceeded Lebron's

- You concede the Nets didn't have a good roster... Btw, they played the Ben Wallace Pistons, not the Chris Webber Pistons that lebron faced (a weak, 53-win 1 seed).. so your comparison of the nets/cavs comp is worthless

- Dwight's all-star PG was hurt and didn't play (jameer nelson), so the magic only had all-star Rashard Lewis, who is offset by all-star Mo Williams... Hedo sucked, especially in that series, and was inferior to 2-time all-star Zydrunas anyway


Ultimately, everyone knew the 01' Sixers, 03' Nets, 07' Cavs and 09' Magic had weak teams that would get blown away in the Finals - and they all did exactly that.. But even though weak casts were winning the East, Lebron couldn't win in 09/10, so he stacked the deck from 11-18'... I'm sure if 09' Dwight colluded with Wade/Bosh, he'd go at least 2/4 too.
.

Soooo what was the best Finals team MJ beat?

:lol

Anyone available?

Just waiting for you to concede the GOAT argument once you do

[QUOTE=SpaceJam2]Soooo what was the best Finals team MJ beat?

:lol

Anyone available?

Just waiting for you to concede the GOAT argument once you do[/QUOTE]

So you admit only 25% of the playoffs was tougher for Bran whereas 75% of the playoffs was tougher for Jordan?

Thanks.

[QUOTE=superduper]So you admit only 25% of the playoffs was tougher for Bran whereas 75% of the playoffs was tougher for Jordan?

Thanks.[/QUOTE]


De

[QUOTE=SpaceJam2]De

[QUOTE=SpaceJam2]Soooo what was the best Finals team MJ beat?

:lol

Anyone available?

Just waiting for you to concede the GOAT argument once you do[/QUOTE]

[B]If you deflect or ignore the following points, you're conceding the goat argument[/B]


1) Your question is unfair because it was a 2-star league in MJ's day - his championship record was unblemished in 2-star vs. 2-star matchups, while Lebron mostly loses today's 3-star vs. 3-star matchups in the super-team era.. So what's the most points that Lebron's 3rd option averaged compared to MJ's?.. This shows that Lebron had his OWN super-team to face his opponents, but simply played an inferior way and fielded inferior teams

2) Facing great teams doesn't prevent you from having great teams yourself that can compete evenly (like Bird's Celtics vs. Magic Lakers).. But Lebron ceded the best teams of his era to the Warriors and Spurs, who he is 2-5 against

3) Lebron was compensated for facing good Finals teams by getting a bunch of extra chances via a weak conference that allowed easy access to the Finals... Despite these extra chances, he only has 3 rings in 16 seasons

Was MJ the best player in the league during his 17th season?

[QUOTE=Vino24]Was MJ the best player in the league during his 17th season?[/QUOTE]
MJ was the best player from 91-93' and 96-98' with 6 rings

Lebron was the best player from 12-16' with 3 rings, although I don't think he was the best player in 14'

LOL at the idea that he's the best player now, or even the last few years when he's been a one-way player.. :facepalm

We can argue that both guys were the best player BEFORE they won rings, like MJ from 88-90 or Lebron from 09-11', but I think there's a lot of problems with making that argument, so I just stick with when each guy started winning rings