Teammate career rankings between Jordan and Lebron -- The Reality

[QUOTE=knicksman;14111308]its not about impact or else giannis > jordan or wilt > jordan. Lebron might even be more impactful than jordan but well choose kobe over him when it comes to building a team. Well choose kawhi over him coz they possess the skill that matters the most. And pippen is the same, hes a great 2nd option but we might even have a higher chance of winning with miller than him.[/QUOTE]

Giannis hasn't shown to carry the same impact Jordan did in the playoffs. So no, knicksman, your take is incorrect.

[QUOTE=knicksman;14111308]its not about impact or else giannis > jordan or wilt > jordan. Lebron might even be more impactful than jordan but well choose kobe over him when it comes to building a team. Well choose kawhi over him coz they possess the skill that matters the most. And pippen is the same, hes a great 2nd option but [B]we might even have a higher chance of winning with miller than him[/B].[/QUOTE]

No one would draft Kawhi over LeBron and only Kobe stans would draft Kobe over LeBron. :oldlol:

Let's compare Pippen to MJ stain darling Miller, probably the only player that rivals Ewing as an object of hype for them.

All-NBA: Pippen 7, Miller 3
All-NBA 1st: Pippen 3, Miller 0
All-NBA 1st/2nd: Pippen 5, Miller 0
Top 5 MVP: Pippen 2, Miller 0
Top 10 MVP: Pippen 5, Miller 0
High MVP finish: Pippen 3rd, Miller 13th (tied with J. Rose, M. Finley, D. Armstrong with 1 fifth place vote each)
Prime BPM: Pippen 6.0, Miller 4.2
Prime VORP per 82: Pippen 6.3, Miller 4.6

This is a joke. I am not going to look up more to compare the two. It is obvious one player was much better--yet MJ stans will rave about Miller and say "Pippen sucked."

The consistent theme is this: if you played with MJ you sucked, if you played against MJ you were a flawless legend. Miller=Curry per some MJ stans. :roll:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111272]The ultimate teammate comparison: 55-27 versus 37-45 or 19-63. :lol[/QUOTE]

To be fair, they should have won much more in 93 but Pippen and Grant had really down years compared to 92. Had they not been so bad, 92 Bulls should have been closer to 65ish wins.

Of course Pippen and Grant had career years in 94, so the Bulls overachieved.

Roundball_Rock leaves a trail of bodied posters from thread to thread :applause:

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]...[/QUOTE]

Thanks. We were waiting for the Knicks/MJ Stockholm Syndrome contingent to make the obligatory appearance echoing the MJ stan TP. We get it: Pippen sucked (sucked in that ECF, right?), Grant sucked, it was all MJ (pathetic Knicks losing to a one man team :lol ), we should cherry pick their highest win total (55, 61, 67, 57, 55--cherry pick 67 as their "true" level!), etc.

Interesting argument: players got better w/out MJ (Pippen, Grant, BJ, Kerr, Myers, arguably S. Williams had career years--i.e., most of the rotation :oldlol: ) while everyone gets worse when LeBron leaves. This is an argument [I]for[/I] MJ. :confusedshrug:

Let's use your cherry picking argument. 13' Heat: 66 wins, down to 37 in 15'. That's -29 wins. 92' Bulls 67 wins, 94' Bulls 55 wins. -12. So per your own metric, -29 vs. -12. Both coming from the same baseline: 67 and 66--and one team lands at 55 and the other 37. According to MJ stans and their satellite Knicks fans contingent, 67 to 55=worse team than the team going from 66 to 37.

Again and again we see their own metrics backfire--but they still won't own the logical conclusions of their own metrics.

[QUOTE=SATAN]Roundball_Rock leaves a trail of bodied posters from thread to thread[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

I can't wait to visit this site in 2030 and see MJ vs Lebron debates still going crazy.

Heat, Bulls had similar results in win totals in the previous four years.

1990-1993 Bulls: 55, 61, 67, 57
2011-2014 Heat: 58, 57*, 66, 54

Yet...

1994 Bulls: 55
2015 Heat: 37

So 55, 61, 67, 57, 55 for the Bulls from 1990-1994 and 58, 57, 66, 54--and 37 for the Heat from 2011-2015.

Can anyone identify the difference here? There is one number here that is not like the other numbers.

*Over 82 games.

Pippen wasn't a star because no one noticed or cared if he played bad.. that's similar to role players and bench players..

the media didn't follow how he played - he had MANY stretches of 12 on 30% similar to Paul George recently - but unlike George, Pippen was never knocked for it.. no one even noticed.. people knew his ceiling was about 20 points, so no one cared when he only got 12.. it was common

people didn't expect much from Pippen.. because he wasn't a true star with actual responsibility that gets knocked for playing poorly... he was treated like a role player (unnoticed overall, virtually unneeded in the clutch, and not held responsible)... He was just a good athlete and slot-filler that took 4 years before barely performing those roles adequately with sufficient toughness..

[U]Look how low[/U] his all-time rankings are in every category - the OP showed that pippen is no better than Kevin Love on offense for their careers - probably not top 100 on offense - so TONS AND TONS of guys would've won in Pippen's place

And it's been demonstrated that MJ didn't need Pippen - he obviously didn't "need" a sidekick with spotty offense that forces MJ to have the goat production rate and win every ring as scoring champ (while assisting 30% more often and getting more dpoy votes every year).. certainly MJ doesn't "need" a sidekick that makes him do all that.

Furthermore, 89' MJ nearly beat the Pistons even though Pippen averaged 10 on 40% (14/6/3 in regular season) - he obviously would've won if Pippen was replaced by a better 2nd option, which proves that MJ didn't need Pippen to win in 89', or Phil (Phil wasn't there in 89').. So MJ didn't need Pippen or Phil - case closed - the 89' carry-job proves it.

Ultimately, Pippen played exactly like Larry Hughes except he was barely more effective by being 2 inches taller - but they play exactly the same... FREQUENTLY disappointing offensively, but no one noticed because Pippen was intuitively a role player in everyone's mind, not someone that is held responsible for poor play (aka a star).. MJ was expected to win and lose every game, while Pippen coattailed

[QUOTE=Jailblazers7;14111458]I can't wait to visit this site in 2030 and see MJ vs Lebron debates still going crazy.[/QUOTE]

I'll see you there :cheers:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111316]No one would draft Kawhi over LeBron and only Kobe stans would draft Kobe over LeBron. :oldlol:

Let's compare Pippen to MJ stain darling Miller, probably the only player that rivals Ewing as an object of hype for them.

All-NBA: Pippen 7, Miller 3
All-NBA 1st: Pippen 3, Miller 0
All-NBA 1st/2nd: Pippen 5, Miller 0
Top 5 MVP: Pippen 2, Miller 0
Top 10 MVP: Pippen 5, Miller 0
High MVP finish: Pippen 3rd, Miller 13th (tied with J. Rose, M. Finley, D. Armstrong with 1 fifth place vote each)
Prime BPM: Pippen 6.0, Miller 4.2
Prime VORP per 82: Pippen 6.3, Miller 4.6

This is a joke. I am not going to look up more to compare the two. It is obvious one player was much better--yet MJ stans will rave about Miller and say "Pippen sucked."

The consistent theme is this: if you played with MJ you sucked, if you played against MJ you were a flawless legend. Miller=Curry per some MJ stans. :roll:[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Id rather draft a guy who needs 2 superstars over a guy who needs none. And i couldnt think of a team that has won with a pippen type of player

Knicks suck. Knicks fans should create another thread about how their team kept losing to a one man team with really, really bad other players (certainly no one as good as the great Starks, Oakley, or Charles Smith cast on the Bulls' roster) who "played so badly" in the year the Knicks had their one 60 win season in the last half a century but the Knicks still took the L. Damn! :(

[QUOTE=TheCorporation;14111514]I'll see you there :cheers:[/QUOTE]

You wish fool

Lebron will be borderline top 5 by most, and eventually borderline top 10

Whereas people only talk about mj being NUMBER ONE.. that's the only rank anyone ever discusses MJ as... So only MJ has and will stand the test of time.

Lebron will be like Kobe if kobe HADN'T died (fade away)

[QUOTE=3ball;14111512]Pippen wasn't a star because no one noticed or cared if he played bad.. that's similar to role players and bench players.

the media didn't follow how he played - he had MANY stretches of 12 on 30% similar to Paul George recently - but unlike George, Pippen was never knocked for it.. no one even noticed.. people knew his ceiling was about 20 points, so no one cared when he only got 12.. it was common

Ultimately, Pippen played exactly like Larry Hughes except he was barely more effective by being 2 inches taller - but they play exactly the same... FREQUENTLY disappointing offensively, but no one noticed because Pippen was intuitively a role player in everyone's mind, not someone that is held responsible for poor play (aka a star).. MJ was expected to win and lose every game, while Pippen coattailed[/QUOTE]

Pippen had better advanced stats than Ewing. And Ewing led NY who was Jordan's best 90s comp. In other words, you can delude yourself all you like, but the hard data disagrees with you. Undeniably so.

[quote]WS/48: [B]Pippen .185[/B], Ewing .172
BPM: [B]Pippen 6.0[/B], Ewing 4.0
OBPM: Pippen 3.9, Ewing 2.0
DBPM: [B]Pippen 2.1[/B], Ewing 2.0
PER: Ewing 22.5, Pippen 21.2
VORP: [B]Pippen 45.9[/B] (599 games), Ewing 44.7 (800 games)
VORP per 82: [B]Pippen 6.3[/B], Ewing 4.6
ORTG: [B]Pippen 112[/B], Ewing 108
TS %: Ewing 56%, Pippen 55%[/quote]

So if Pippen was a bench player or just "Larry Hughes" then what does that say about Jordan's comp? You aren't getting off, scott free with these claims.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111563]Knicks suck. Knicks fans should create another thread about how their team kept losing to a one man team with really, really bad other players (certainly no one as good as the great Starks, Oakley, or Charles Smith cast on the Bulls' roster) who "played so badly" in the year the Knicks had their one 60 win season in the last half a century but the Knicks still took the L. Damn! :([/QUOTE]

LoL. This guy just took an L

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111620]So if Pippen was a bench player or just "Larry Hughes" then what does that say about Jordan's comp?[/QUOTE]

It says we can't take MJ's rangz seriously. Pippen was ahead of Barkley and Malone several times in all-NBA with each of them in their primes. So MJ was playing teams whose best player was worse than Larry Hughes some years of their primes. LeBron was playing KD/Westbrook/Harden, KD/Curry/Klay/Green/Iggy, Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Ginobili. Every one of these players is worse than Larry Hughes.

[QUOTE=insidious]Pippen had better advanced stats than Ewing. And Ewing led NY who was Jordan's best 90s comp. In other words, you can delude yourself all you like, but the hard data disagrees with you[/QUOTE]

Data he himself was citing as evidence of Pippen sucking--just yesterday. These are [U]his own preferred metrics[/U]. :roll:

[QUOTE=1-9ball]BPM means nothing and doesn't offset Pippen's weak PPG, TS, PER, WS/48, OBPM, ORTG, assist %, and PLAYOFF PERFORMANCE[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?484204-30-guys-had-better-statistica-peak-than-pippen-in-90-s-and-better-playoff-performance/page2[/url]

We haven't even gotten around to playoffs. Pippen had several great finals; Ewing melted down in his one finals appearance.

[U]Prime Assist %[/U]

Pippen: 24.5%
Ewing: 10.8%

[QUOTE=goozeman;14110880][B]Career Rankings[/B]

[B]PER:[/B]

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185

[B]OBPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107

[B]
WS/48:[/B]

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129
[B]
Ortg:[/B]

Horace Grant.....4 :biggums:
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250
[B]
Effective Field Goal Percentage:[/B]

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250
[B]
True Shooting:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250

[B]BPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35 :applause:
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent. Also, Scottie Pippen's BPM ranking is wildly incongruous because it rewards defensive stars playing on great defensive teams. From BREF about the BPM 2.0 changes:




When basketball reference reworked the stat back in 2016, players like John Stockton (another Pippen-like two-way player) saw their career BPM double. And here is the kicker... Even with that bonus bump gifted to him and playing on the best defensive teams of all-time practically his entire career, Pippen wouldn't even be a top-three impact player compared to Lebron's teammates. All-time Pippen is just slightly better than Kevin Love.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

Lebron fans...

[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2Fl4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG][/QUOTE]

this is such a dumb thread cuz Pippen played well past his prime.. And won BBALL series without MJ.. MJ BLANK WITHOUT PIPPEN.. Pippen has 6 rings must make him better thanMAGIC.. LOL

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111638]It says we can't take MJ's rangz seriously. Pippen was ahead of Barkley and Malone several times in all-NBA with each of them in their primes. So MJ was playing teams whose best player was worse than Larry Hughes some years of their primes. LeBron was playing KD/Westbrook/Harden, KD/Curry/Klay/Green/Iggy, Duncan/Kawhi/Parker/Ginobili. Every one of these players is worse than Larry Hughes.



Data he himself was citing as evidence of Pippen sucking--just yesterday. These are [U]his own preferred metrics[/U]. :roll:[/QUOTE]

One hundred percent. I am still waiting for gooseman & 3ball to answer these pertinent questions, but only if they can remain consistent. Its all fun and games until you're asked to back it up.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111563]Knicks suck. Knicks fans should create another thread about how their team kept losing to a one man team with really, really bad other players (certainly no one as good as the great Starks, Oakley, or Charles Smith cast on the Bulls' roster) who "played so badly" in the year the Knicks had their one 60 win season in the last half a century but the Knicks still took the L. Damn! :([/QUOTE]

Imagine being a Bulls fan so that means your #2 option was better than your greatest rivalries (Knicks) 1st option (Ewing).


WHAT. A. TIME. :lol

[QUOTE=3ball;14111565]You wish fool

Lebron will be borderline top 5 by most, and eventually borderline top 10

Whereas people only talk about mj being NUMBER ONE.. that's the only rank anyone ever discusses MJ as... So only MJ has and will stand the test of time.

Lebron will be like Kobe if kobe HADN'T died (fade away)[/QUOTE]

This # aint going doint baby girl

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/P5HyRKwN/wow-7132-goat.png[/img]

MJ is the one on the decline. He might not be top 5 by 2030 Watch and Learn.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111671]One hundred percent. I am still waiting for gooseman & 3ball to answer these pertinent questions, but only if they can remain consistent. Its all fun and games until you're asked to back it up.[/QUOTE]

Yup but they are cutting and running or dodging. Same with tpols, who was among those going on and on about how 90's players would score a lot more today because this era is so weak, defenses are so bad, etc. Won't apply the same logic to MJ's teammates in the OP, though. These guys have no actual beliefs hence the non-stop agenda driven flip flopping but they should at least admit it. They show in threads and pretend they have a thought out, reasoning, factually based position.

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]Imagine being a Bulls fan so that means your #2 option was better than your greatest rivalries (Knicks) 1st option (Ewing).


WHAT. A. TIME.[/QUOTE]

It was glorious! :rockon:

[QUOTE=1-9ball]Lebron will be borderline top 5 by most, and eventually borderline top 10[/QUOTE]

Is this guy on crack? LeBron is consensus top 3 at minimum if he retired tomorrow.

These people hallucinate their own rankings while ignoring consensus rankings. It is fine to disagree with the consensus but those fools deny it even exists. So LeBron is "borderline top 10." Pippen is Larry Hughes. Ewing>LeBron. Miller=Curry. Etc. All in Jordanstan. :lol

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111620]Pippen had better advanced stats than Ewing. And Ewing led NY who was Jordan's best 90s comp. In other words, you can delude yourself all you like, but the hard data disagrees with you. Undeniably so.



So if Pippen was a bench player or just "Larry Hughes" then what does that say about Jordan's comp? You aren't getting off, scott free with these claims.[/QUOTE]

Stop lying about the advanced stats.

Ewing has higher PER, WS/48, and efficiency.... And better raw stats by a mile, especially scoring because Ewing was an elite alpha dog scorer/shooter, while Pippen was a relative liability with stone hands.. Ewing carried offenses and teams while Pippen could get 10 points and no one noticed or cared.

There's no comparison, which is why Ewing has far better regular season peak (29/11/3 with 4.0 blocks versus 22/9/6 and 2 steals) and better playoff peak (Ewing destroyed Pippen in 94" to make the Finals)

Pippen is nowhere near this.. Pippen only has VORP and the dumb BPM (which says someone can score 10 points less but get a couple steals and have higher BPM)... you guys split BPM into 3 stats, but it's 1 stat and this shady tactic proves that pippen"s stats can't stand on their own

This is the official, unbiased GOAT list

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/P5HyRKwN/wow-7132-goat.png[/img]

I will concede if someone can pass LeFirst then they are the new GOAT

jordan is the greatest winner in pro sports if you're measuring careers. his career and narrative will never be surpassed.



lebron's career has also been spotless. what a GOAT.

[QUOTE=3ball;14111718]Stop lying about the advanced stats.

Ewing has higher PER, WS/48, and efficiency.... And better raw stats by a mile, especially scoring because Ewing was an elite alpha dog scorer/shooter, while Pippen was a relative liability with stone hands.. Ewing carried offenses and teams while Pippen could get 10 points and no one noticed or cared.[/quote]

You're in denial and willfully ignorant. Those stats are from both Ewing and Pippen's prime, and roughly 9 seasons of data. So to recap Prime Pippen(91-98) had better: bpm, ortg, ws, ws48, vorp & ortg. Prime Ewing(88-97) has better: ts, per & ppg. What's more, we know all the stats Pippen beat Ewing in are cumulative & impact ones. Meaning they are unequivocally better measures. What all of this tells us is you need to brush up on what "facts" are. They are clearly not on your side.

In the meantime, we'll wait for you to explain why Pippen outplayed Ewing. The same Ewing who led NY and was also Jordan's best comp.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111753]You're in denial and willfully ignorant. Those stats are from both Ewing and Pippen's prime, and roughly 9 seasons of data. So to recap Prime Pippen(91-98) had better: bpm, ortg, ws, ws48, vorp & ortg. Prime Ewing(88-97) has better: ts, per & ppg. What's more, we know all the stats Pippen beat Ewing in are cumulative & impact ones. Meaning they are unequivocally better measures. What all of this tells us is you need to brush up on what "facts" are. They are clearly not on your side.

In the meantime, I will be waiting for you to explain why Pippen was better than Ewing. The same Ewing who led NY and was also Jordan's best comp.[/QUOTE]

Yup. His. own. metrics. :lol

Even TS % isn't a clear win for Ewing. The gap is 1%--but Ewing was a center taking a lot of bunny shots while Pippen was a perimeter player taking a lot of threes and mid-range shots.

In the playoffs that gap is erased completely.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111753]You're in denial and willfully ignorant. Those stats are from both Ewing and Pippen's prime, and roughly 9 seasons of data. So to recap Prime Pippen(91-98) had better: bpm, ortg, ws, ws48, vorp & ortg. Prime Ewing(88-97) has better: ts, per & ppg. What's more, we know all the stats Pippen beat Ewing in are cumulative & impact ones. Meaning they are unequivocally better measures. What all of this tells us is you need to brush up on what "facts" are. They are clearly not on your side.

In the meantime, we'll wait for you to explain why Pippen outplayed Ewing. The same Ewing who led NY and was also Jordan's best comp.[/QUOTE]

Again, your stats are wrong

Ewing has higher PER, WS/48 and efficiency... And better raw stats by a mile... And better regular season and playoff peak

Pippen only has BPM which is a fraud, and meaningless VORP.. he trails in everything else and everything that matters - he literally sucks at scoring compared to Ewing... An entirely lower caliber of player... A "pippen" lol

Ewing was an alpha dog scorer that carried teams, while Pippen was a role player that got carried and was never held accountable (like a role player)

if you really want to nitpick jordan's spotless career though...

How can Pippen be top 30 all-time when he isn't top 30 all-time in a single stat category?

His best stat is BPM, which is biased towards him, yet he's only 35th!!!!... And every other stat he ranks outside the top 100

Pippen is NOT a top 100 player - if he was, he wouldn't rank OUTSIDE the top 100 in basically everything

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111774]Yup. His. own. metrics. :lol

Even TS % isn't a clear win for Ewing. The gap is 1%--but Ewing was a center taking a lot of bunny shots while Pippen was a perimeter player taking a lot of threes and mid-range shots.

In the playoffs that gap is erased completely.[/QUOTE]

Credit to you for posting those numbers btw. I "[U]fact checked[/U]" them and they were all correct. The only problem now is that Jordan fans are in denial and refuse to accept the facts. Going as far to say the [U]FACTUAL DATA[/U] is wrong. They are beginning to crack, Roundball!

[QUOTE=3ball;14111777]Again, your stats are wrong

Ewing has higher PER, WS/48 and efficiency... And better raw stats by a mile... And better regular season and playoff peak

Pippen only has BPM which is a fraud, and meaningless VORP.. he trails in everything else and everything that matters - he literally sucks at scoring compared to Ewing... An entirely lower caliber of player... A "pippen" lol

Ewing was an alpha dog scorer that carried teams, while Pippen was a role player that got carried and was never held accountable (like a role player)[/QUOTE]

Incorrect. The stats are all documented and were posted [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?484204-30-guys-had-better-statistica-peak-than-pippen-in-90-s-and-better-playoff-performance/page3"]here[/URL]. They paint Pippen with better ws/48 & overall winshares. Adding to that, better ortg, vorp & bpm - the latter two being impact stats capturing all around play. When all of the information is laid out properly, as in Pippen>Ewing, how do you come to grips with Ewing leading NY? The Bulls #2 was better than the #1 on the [U]best opponent[/U]

[QUOTE=goozeman;14110909]So "cherry picking stats" means posting almost all relevant statistical data for a player's entire career now? I even threw the fake-Pippen/Lebron fans a bone, and dropped your favorite metric BPM in there just to be fair.[/QUOTE]

You are an irrelevant poster. How about defensive stats, and level of competitions? And pippen and grant won more playoffs series than bosh, love, and irving without their best players.

[QUOTE=Insidious]Credit to you for posting those numbers btw. I "fact checked" them and they were all correct[/QUOTE]

Here is some more. Augmented plus/minus data. Unfortunately, we don't have this data from before 1994 but this gives us 1994-1997 with both players still all-NBA players. This is from data I pulled to compare several top stars and tracking them year-over-year.

[U]Augmented Plus-Minus (1994-1997)[/U]

[U]1994[/U]: Robinson 7.5, Malone 5.9, Hakeem 5.2, [B]Pippen 3.7[/B], Shaq/Barkley/Miller 3.6, [B]Ewing 3.2[/B], Penny 2.9, Payton -0.2
[U]1995[/U]: Robinson 8.4, [B]Pippen 5.8[/B], Shaq/Penny 5.6, Malone 5.3, Hakeem 5.1, Barkley 3.9, [B]Ewing 3.6[/B], Miller 2.4, Payton 2.3, Hill 2.2
[U]1996[/U]: Robinson 6.5, Penny 5.6, [B]Pippen 5.5[/B], Malone 5.1, Shaq/Hill 4.1, Hakeem 3.9, Miller 3.6, Barkley 3.1, [B]Ewing/Payton 2.9[/B]
[U]1997[/U]: [B]Pippen 6.4, Ewing 5.7[/B], Malone 5.2, Shaq 4.9, Payton 4.5, Penny/Hakeem 4.0, Hill 3.5, Barkley 2.9, Miller 1.8, Robinson 1.6

Pippen is ahead of him every year.

How about RAPM (real adjusted plus-minus)? We have that data starting in 1997 so let's look at 1997 (Ewing was no longer elite by 98', Pippen by 99').

[U]RAPM[/U]

Pippen: 9th at 3.9
Ewing: 10th at 3.8

So, close but Pippen ahead again. How about in the playoffs in 97'?

Pippen: 3rd at 2.5
Ewing: 25th at 0.8

Pippen moved up, Ewing moved down significantly in the playoffs.

How about net on/off? Available since 97'.

[U]Net On/Off[/U]

Pippen: +8.1
Ewing: +7.4

In the 97' PO:

Pippen: +13.8
Ewing: +9.1

Data point after data point has Pippen>Ewing. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111795]Credit to you for posting those numbers btw. I "[U]fact checked[/U]" them and they were all correct. The only problem now is that Jordan fans are in denial and refuse to accept the facts. Going as far to say the [U]FACTUAL DATA[/U] is wrong. They are beginning to crack, Roundball!



Incorrect. The stats are all documented and were posted [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?484204-30-guys-had-better-statistica-peak-than-pippen-in-90-s-and-better-playoff-performance/page3"]here[/URL]. They paint Pippen with better ws/48 & overall winshares. Adding to that, better ortg, vorp & bpm - the latter two being impact stats capturing all around play. When all of the information is laid out properly, as in Pippen>Ewing, how do you come to grips with Ewing leading NY? The Bulls #2 was better than the #1 on the [U]best opponent[/U][/QUOTE]

Again, Ewing has better everything - better advanced stats (PER, WS/48, TS)... better raw stats (not even close)... better peak in RS and PO

And Ewing carried teams as an elite alpha-dog scorer - he was never an Iggy or a "pippen".. Pippen was a [U]bad[/U] scorer compared to Ewing.. it's like comparing Iggy to Embiid

Ewing was on that top tier, aka MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Barkley... Pippen was never on this level and it's a disgusting lie to say he was

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111805]Here is some more. Augmented plus/minus data. Unfortunately, we don't have this data from before 1994 but this gives us 1994-1997 with both players still all-NBA players. This is from data I pulled to compare several top stars and tracking them year-over-year.

[U]Augmented Plus-Minus (1994-1997)[/U]

[U]1994[/U]: Robinson 7.5, Malone 5.9, Hakeem 5.2, [B]Pippen 3.7[/B], Shaq/Barkley/Miller 3.6, [B]Ewing 3.2[/B], Penny 2.9, Payton -0.2
[U]1995[/U]: Robinson 8.4, [B]Pippen 5.8[/B], Shaq/Penny 5.6, Malone 5.3, Hakeem 5.1, Barkley 3.9, [B]Ewing 3.6[/B], Miller 2.4, Payton 2.3, Hill 2.2
[U]1996[/U]: Robinson 6.5, Penny 5.6, [B]Pippen 5.5[/B], Malone 5.1, Shaq/Hill 4.1, Hakeem 3.9, Miller 3.6, Barkley 3.1, [B]Ewing/Payton 2.9[/B]
[U]1997[/U]: [B]Pippen 6.4, Ewing 5.7[/B], Malone 5.2, Shaq 4.9, Payton 4.5, Penny/Hakeem 4.0, Hill 3.5, Barkley 2.9, Miller 1.8, Robinson 1.6

Pippen is ahead of him every year.

How about RAPM (real adjusted plus-minus)? We have that data starting in 1997 so let's look at 1997 (Ewing was no longer elite by 98', Pippen by 99').

Pippen: 9th at 3.9
Ewing: 10th at 3.8

So, close but Pippen ahead again. How about in the playoffs in 97'?

Pippen: 3rd at 2.5
Ewing: 25th at 0.8

Pippen moved up, Ewing moved down significantly in the playoffs.

Data point after data point has Pippen>Ewing. It is something like 12 of 15 in favor of Pippen now. :oldlol:
Ewing:[/QUOTE]

Real plus minus is the best measure of impact, so this is very keen data. Thank you. Pippen now leads Ewing in basically every major advanced stat & now in impact without the box score. Not a complete sweep but domination that is close enough. Will the Jordan fans address it? Can they come to terms with Pippen > The #1 on their greatest rival? Time will tell!

[QUOTE=3ball;14111809]Again, Ewing has better everything - better advanced stats (PER, WS/48, TS)... better raw stats (not even close)... better peak in RS and PO

And Ewing carried teams as an elite alpha-dog scorer - he was never an Iggy or a "pippen".. Ewing was always much better than Pippen and it's dumb to even consider otherwise, let alone ARGUE it..[/QUOTE]

Once again, incorrect. Pippen's prime numbers beat Ewing's prime numbers handily. In bpm, vorp, ws, ws48, ortg & now apm/rapm. Damn near a clean sweep! Unfortunately, you will have to come to grips sooner than later.

[QUOTE=Lebron23;14111803]You are an irrelevant poster. How about defensive stats, and level of competitions? And pippen and grant won more playoffs series than bosh, love, and irving without their best players.[/QUOTE]

Bingo

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111814]Real plus minus is the best measure of impact, so this is very keen data. Thank you. Pippen now leads Ewing in basically every major advanced stat & now in impact without the box score. Not a complete sweep but domination that is close enough. Will the Jordan fans address it? Can they come to terms with Pippen > The #1 on their greatest rival? Time will tell!



Once again, incorrect. Pippen's prime numbers beat Ewing's prime numbers handily. In bpm, vorp, ws, ws48, ortg & now apm/rapm. Damn near a clean sweep! Unfortunately, you will have to come to grips sooner than later.[/QUOTE]
Ewing led PER, WS/48, and TS... So he wins advanced and obviously raw stats

Pippen was a bad scorer compared to Ewing.. it's like comparing Iggy to Embiid.. no one thinks iggy > Embiid and it was the same with Pippen and Ewing

Ewing was on that top tier, aka MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Barkley... Pippen was never on this level and it's a disgusting lie to say he was

[QUOTE=3ball;14111825]Ewing led his share of advanced stats just like Pippen and destroys the raw stats

Pippen was a bad scorer compared to Ewing.. it's like comparing Iggy to Embiid.. no one thinks iggy > Embiid and it was the same with Pippen and Ewing

Ewing was on that top tier, aka MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Barkley... Pippen was never on this level and it's a disgusting lie to say he was[/QUOTE]

Not quite. To Ewing's credit, he has a higher ts% & per, but Pippen outclasses him in everything else. I don't know why you're confused, but the numbers are public information for everyone to check. Pippen wins in a complete landslide. Now with that in mind, you can confidently say Pippen was the best SF in the 90s. And also better than the #1 on Chicago's best comp. This makes him top tier & even greater.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111814]Real plus minus is the best measure of impact, so this is very keen data. Thank you. Pippen now leads Ewing in basically every major advanced stat & now in impact without the box score. Not a complete sweep but domination that is close enough. Will the Jordan fans address it? Can they come to terms with Pippen > The #1 on their greatest rival? Time will tell![/QUOTE]

They are making Ewing look bad by having all these numbers be dug up and have Pippen ahead of him over and over again. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=insidious]To Ewing's credit, he has a higher ts% & per[/QUOTE]

Here is my count.

Ewing is ahead in: PER, TS %, peak WS/48
Pippen is ahead in: prime WS/48, BPM, OBPM, DBPM, VORP, ORTG, prime WOWYR, WOWYR score, peak BPM, Augmented Plus-Minus, Real Adjusted Plus-Minus, Net on/off court

So that is 12-3 for Pippen and where Ewing is ahead it is close--but when Pippen is ahead it rarely is close. For instance, Ewing is 108th all-time in peak WS/48--Pippen is right behind him at 110th. In TS % Ewing is ahead by 1% (that is bad for a C--he should be ahead by more over a SF). PER it is 1.3 for Ewing. Where Pippen is ahead he crushes him. 6-4 in BPM, double the OBPM, 6.3-4.6 in VORP (it may not sound like much but that means Pippen is 37% higher), 112-108 in ORTG, Pippen is 105th in prime WOWYR while Ewing is 214, Pippen is 42nd in prime WOWYR score while Ewing is 85th, Pippen is 23rd all-time in Augmented Plus-Minus while Ewing is 56th, Pippen is 24th in peak BPM while Ewing is 125th.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111829]Not quite. To Ewing's credit, he has a higher ts% & per, but Pippen outclasses him in everything else. I don't know why you're confused, but the numbers are public information for everyone to check. Pippen wins in a complete landslide. Now with that in mind, you can confidently say Pippen was the best SF in the 90s. And also better than the #1 on Chicago's best comp. This makes him top tier & even greater.[/QUOTE]

Ewing leads:

PPG
OREB
DREB
RPG
BPG
FT %
FG%
TS
EFG
DREB%
OREB%
REB%
PER
WS/48
Usage
DRTG
2 pt %


Pippen leads:

APG
SPG
OBPM
DBPM
BPM
VORP
ORTG
Assist %
turnovers (lower)
3 pt %


But again, the most important stat is scoring, where Ewing destroyed Pippen and separated himself as a top tier player and rival of Malone, Robinson and MJ... never pippen's rival.. pippen had no rivals because he wasn't on the top level to be rivals with the top dogs

Take the L and move on. Pippen>Ewing using MJ stans' own metrics.

[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/UddZtcUQtMgc8/giphy.gif[/IMG]

:hammertime:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111871]Take the L and move on. Pippen>Ewing using MJ stans' own metrics.

:hammertime:[/QUOTE]

Ewing's 5 year peak destroys pippen's, so who cares about your arbitrary 9-year peak that includes fossil Ewing

Ewing leads the vast majority of stat categories for their careers, as shown above

And Ewing was a vastly superior scorer that carried teams, which made him a rival of MJ, Isiah, and Malone, while Pippen was never on that level. This is common knowledge