Lebron hasn't been all-defense in 7 years

We know what Miller would be in today's NBA. His name is Klay Thompson, who is Miller except he plays defense too.

[QUOTE=BigtimeNBAFan;14165778]Yeah that was a crazy clapback. The truth is Miller has nothing on Curry. Curry is a 2x MVP who actually won titles and was actually a superstar 3 point shooter. Reggie Miller's best 3 point season was he made 229. To put that in perspective Steph Curry has 5 of the top 10 3 point shooting seasons in nba history and they were all more than Miller's best season.[/QUOTE]

Yup. It also is funny they will hype every star MJ played against and then diminish Pippen, whose peak and prime blow Miller's away. :lol

[QUOTE]Reggie didn't make an All-NBA 2nd Team or finish top 10 in MVP voting a single time in his year entire 18 year career[/QUOTE]

Yup--guys like Richmond, Dumars did it at SG in his own era but he couldn't. Moreover, he was a 1x all-star through 7 seasons before Spike Lee made him famous. I am not aware of any other player who magically became a perennial all-star at 29 years old...

The other thing is when Miller got MVP votes he tied his teammates each year (Smits in 98', Rose in 00')--presumably a 5th place vote or two. So he wasn't even #1 on his own team in those cases.

[QUOTE]And Reggie Miller won what exactly?[/QUOTE]

Nothing. Even his documentary "Winning Time" ends with the Pacers losing. :lol

[QUOTE=light;14165899]I would argue that LeBron right now is a better defender than Jordan was at any point in his career.

Think about all of the players Michael Jordan had to defend throughout his entire career - Joe Dumars, John Starks, Craig Ehlo, etc. 2020 LeBron James can defend all of them just as well as Jordan, if not better.

But what makes LeBron [B][I]clearly[/I][/B] superior are two additional things that Jordan didn't do:

1) LeBron can defend centers and power forwards at a high level.

[INDENT][I]LeBron can actually defend heavy centers better than Anthony Davis because he has a stronger base (Bron is unusually strong in general).

Jordan was so much smaller and weaker that he couldn’t seriously consider doing anything in the frontcourt.[/I][/INDENT]

2) LeBron is also his team's defensive quarterback.

[INDENT][I]Scottie Pippen was the Chicago Bulls defensive quarterback, not Michael Jordan.

LeBron has been the defensive quarterback on all of his teams since 2008.[/I][/INDENT]

So it’s the same old story: LeBron can do everything on defense and Jordan couldn’t.[/QUOTE]

Goodnesa Gracious

R.I P. op's agenda

[QUOTE=GrayGoat;14165985]No Pip?[/QUOTE]

NO Chip

Simple as that

0/5 without Pip

[QUOTE=8Ball;14165962]And Reggie Miller won what exactly?

Zero all nba 1st teams. Zero all defense.

Zero rings.

Paul George > Reggie Miller.

The discount Klay is the best Jordan faced in entire 90s East?[/QUOTE]

Well he went further than pg which according to bron stans means alot. He's just a better competitor. He also is the goat off ball mover.

And its not like he's way better buy he's definitely better.

[QUOTE=Shooter;14165994]NO Chip

Simple as that

0/5 without Pip[/QUOTE]

Bingo. Op is the reason MJ has to come out with a new documentary every 3 months. Literally dragging his name thru mud

LeBron has more top 2 DPOY finishes than Jordan

Sorry.

Anyone that ever muttered "3-6" has ZERO right to say anything about Reggie Miller. Who is 0-1 in the finals.

Paul George = All NBA team 5x, All defence 4x

Reggier Miller = All NBA 3rd team 3x.

Reggie Miller Career 18-3-3
Paul George Career 20-7-4

Jimmy Butler is also better than Reggie Miller.

3ball maybe you're right and maybe mj is >>>>>>> every other player like you claim.


You realize you've convinced everyone otherwise right? Using your own logic MJ played on stacked teams, beat weak competition, was ball-dominant and only won with one system - pretty much everything you accuse the other top-10 players of.



Just give it up and retire already. You lost.

OP is definitely in his "Wizards MJ" phase this year...it's ugly to see.

[QUOTE=8Ball;14166106]Sorry.

Anyone that ever muttered "3-6" has ZERO right to say anything about Reggie Miller. Who is 0-1 in the finals.

Paul George = All NBA team 5x, All defence 4x

Reggier Miller = All NBA 3rd team 3x.

Reggie Miller Career 18-3-3
Paul George Career 20-7-4

Jimmy Butler is also better than Reggie Miller.[/QUOTE]

George was a MVP candidate and 1st team all-NBA in 19'. It was just one season but Miller never came close to that peak.

Miller is 0-1 in the finals, 1-4 in the ECF, and 3-5 in Game 7's and Game 5's (first round was 5 games back then).

Here is what Bill Simmons said about Miller (this article is about his Miller podcast episode last winter):

[QUOTE=Bill Simmons]He notes Miller had only three Third Team All-NBA selections and five All-Star appearances in his 18-year career.

[B]Simmons even suggests that Miller was never considered a top-10 NBA player in a single season[/B] and his prime coincided with an unusually weak stretch of talent.

[B]"Shouldn't it matter that he couldn't create shots for anyone else? That he couldn't consistently beat good defenders off the dribble? That the Pacers sprinted him around a series of picks almost like a mouse going through a maze to spring him for open looks?[/B]" Simmons asked.

"[B]Everyone else tailored their games to make Reggie Miller look good. Can you win a title that way? Obviously not[/B]." [/QUOTE]

The Pacers had to move heaven and earth to generate 14 shots a game for Miller.

[URL="https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2020/01/14/bill-simmons-ex-indiana-pacers-star-reggie-miller-wasnt-superstar-nba-the-ringer/4467917002/"]https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2020/01/14/bill-simmons-ex-indiana-pacers-star-reggie-miller-wasnt-superstar-nba-the-ringer/4467917002/[/URL]

Putting that in the filing cabinet for later use. :cheers:

[QUOTE=8Ball;14166179]Putting that in the filing cabinet for later use. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

You will find MJ stans will never criticize any 90's star (except Pippen or Rodman) because they are so invested in hyping them. :oldlol: They never had a bad game, bad series, had no flaws in their game, etc. Only MJ's teammates did.

[QUOTE=light;14165899]I would argue that LeBron right now is a better defender than Jordan was at any point in his career.

Think about all of the players Michael Jordan had to defend throughout his entire career - Joe Dumars, John Starks, Craig Ehlo, etc. 2020 LeBron James can defend all of them just as well as Jordan, if not better.

But what makes LeBron [B][I]clearly[/I][/B] superior are two additional things that Jordan didn't do:

1) LeBron can defend centers and power forwards at a high level.

[INDENT][I]LeBron can actually defend heavy centers better than Anthony Davis because he has a stronger base (Bron is unusually strong in general).

Jordan was so much smaller and weaker that he couldn’t seriously consider doing anything in the frontcourt.[/I][/INDENT]

2) LeBron is also his team's defensive quarterback.

[INDENT][I]Scottie Pippen was the Chicago Bulls defensive quarterback, not Michael Jordan.

LeBron has been the defensive quarterback on all of his teams since 2008.[/I][/INDENT]

So it’s the same old story: LeBron can do everything on defense and Jordan couldn’t.[/QUOTE]

Defensive versatility doesn't equal good defense, which is why lebron hasn't been all-defense in 7 years... he isn't a good defender, so he doesn't get all-defense... he's a place-holder, aka replacement-level defense on 5 positions

And MJ got more dpoy votes every year than pippen, while being the primary defender on the opponent's best player, and raising pippen from a baby in 88' as the league's best defender.. heck, MJ was #2 for dpoy in 93', while pippen got no votes

[QUOTE=1-9ball;14166194]And MJ got more dpoy votes every year than pippen [/QUOTE]

This is yet another blatant lie.

[QUOTE=3ball;14166194]Defensive versatility doesn't equal good defense, which is why lebron hasn't been all-defense in 7 years... he isn't a good defender, so he doesn't get all-defense... he's a place-holder, aka replacement-level defense on 5 positions

And MJ got more dpoy votes every year than pippen, while being the primary defender on the opponent's best player, and raising pippen from a baby in 88' as the league's best defender.. heck, MJ was #2 for dpoy in 93', while pippen got no votes[/QUOTE]
Jordan finishing 2nd in DPOY in '93 is such a fcking joke :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166204]This is yet another blatant lie.[/QUOTE]


[INDENT]DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)[/INDENT]


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender [B]AT THE TIME[/B], and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s]NBA[/url]) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats

But this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time, and basketball in general.. AD is a better defender than pippen, yet he can't score like Pippen and the Lakers win.. the Lakers need great offense from him regardless of his dpoy-level defense

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers.. infact, every Finals and ECF opponent had a better defense during the 1st three-peat, except the Suns and 93' Cavs..

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14166208]Jordan finishing 2nd in DPOY in '93 is such a fcking joke :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Why?

Because you said so?

Because you don't want it to be?

Everyone said MJ was [U]the[/U] goat defender back then.. [U]Of all time[/U] and certainly in any given season... This was [U]common[/U] thinking and people said it off-hand all the time

Look hard enough on YouTube and there's tons of people saying MJ is the goat defender

LeBron hasn't won any all-NBA defense the last several years because he's going to the finals every year instead of quitting the game for two years to rest and recharge. He amps up his defense in the playoffs with virtuoso performances like 2016 Jordan couldn't dream of touching. Jordan winning regular season popularity contest awards doesn't mean anything.

[QUOTE=3ball;14166217]Why?

Because you said so?

Because you don't want it to be?

Everyone said MJ was [U]the[/U] goat defender back then.. [U]Of all time[/U] and certainly in any given season... This was [U]common[/U] thinking and people said it off-hand all the time

Look hard enough on YouTube and there's tons of people saying MJ is the goat defender[/QUOTE]
Only Jordan fanboys would believe Jordan was a better defender than Robinson

And you're really using the youtube comment section to back your claim :oldlol: What, you couldn't find anything on yahoo answers?

[QUOTE=Ainosterhaspie;14166220]LeBron hasn't won any all-NBA defense the last several years because he's going to the finals every year instead of quitting the game for two years to rest and recharge. He amps up his defense in the playoffs with virtuoso performances like 2016 Jordan couldn't dream of touching. Jordan winning regular season popularity contest awards doesn't mean anything.[/QUOTE]

Oh I see

he takes the regular season off, so we shouldn't consider him an underdog in 16' and should go with the preseason odds (cavs were favored)??

got it

[QUOTE=light;14165899]I would argue that LeBron right now is a better defender than Jordan was at any point in his career.[/QUOTE]

If you would argue this then you quite frankly don't know what you're talking about.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14166208]Jordan finishing 2nd in DPOY in '93 is such a fcking joke :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

It is funny, MJ fans will point to MJ's accolades when convenient (like MVPs or DPOY here) but whenever it is inconvenient they dismiss them as "media awards" (like Klay/Green getting more accolades than Irving/Love from 2015-2018 or MJ having 6x all-NBA teammates in 15 seasons and LeBron 5x in 17).


1-9ball, you just proved you lied. :lol

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14166223]Only Jordan fanboys would believe Jordan was a better defender than Robinson

And you're really using the youtube comment section to back your claim :oldlol: What, you couldn't find anything on yahoo answers?[/QUOTE]

No Jerry West, Magic, Dumars and others said he was the best defender in the league and included hyperbole about "best ever defender" as well

It wasn't uncommon to hear this kind of talk and you weren't looked at weird for saying it

The guy won dpoy and was always top 5 in dpoy.. nearly won it again in 93'

So you're just young and dumb

L4/10n

Jordan was a great defender. It is amazing how one team had arguably the GOAT defenders at their position on the same team at the same time in Pippen, MJ, and Rodman. That doesn't even get to Grant, who was an elite defender for his era, just not a GOAT-level defender.

They even had the #2 defense without MJ, Grant, and Rodman in 95' (and before someone brings up scoring! They were #10 on offense).

How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown:

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14166223]Only Jordan fanboys would believe Jordan was a better defender than Robinson

And you're really using the youtube comment section to back your claim :oldlol: What, you couldn't find anything on yahoo answers?[/QUOTE]

Jordan wasn't but drob is a center. Almost all centers who who are good defensively have more impact than guards or even fowards. Same goes for bron btw. He dosn't have the impact defensively of the better big men in the league

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166234]Jordan was a great defender. It is amazing how one team had arguably the GOAT defenders at their position on the same team at the same time in Pippen, MJ, and Rodman. That doesn't even get to Grant, who was an elite defender for his era, just not a GOAT-level defender.

They even had the #2 defense without MJ, Grant, and Rodman in 95' (and before someone brings up scoring! They were #10 on offense).

How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown:[/QUOTE]
Only MJ made the Bulls elite on both ends, and therefore championship caliber (goat dynasty-caliber actually)

And the 98' bulls were #1 on defense before pippen came back, similar to the 95' Bulls before MJ came back

That's what happens when a team is missing players on offense (95', 98'), so they step it up on defense..

indeed, players have finite amount of energy to expend both ends, so increases on one end take away from the other.. fortunately, MJ allowed teams to be great on both ends, aka the GOAT

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166234]Jordan was a great defender. It is amazing how one team had arguably the GOAT defenders at their position on the same team at the same time in Pippen, MJ, and Rodman. That doesn't even get to Grant, who was an elite defender for his era, just not a GOAT-level defender.

They even had the #2 defense without MJ, Grant, and Rodman in 95' (and before someone brings up scoring! They were #10 on offense).

How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

bingooooooo

+1

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166234]Jordan was a great defender. It is amazing how one team had arguably the GOAT defenders at their position on the same team at the same time in Pippen, MJ, and Rodman. That doesn't even get to Grant, who was an elite defender for his era, just not a GOAT-level defender.

They even had the #2 defense without MJ, Grant, and Rodman in 95' (and before someone brings up scoring! They were #10 on offense).

How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

His teams definitely weren't stacked. Rod was 35 and like 3 years outside of his last all star year. He was still a great defender and rebounder but he only scored 6 points a game or so. I can only imagine how much bron stans would devalue rod if he was on brons team. Mj stans do the same though and both are idiots tbh. Towards the last chip both rod and pip were shells of themselves. Rod was no longer one of the best defenders in the league and pips back hampered his play on both ends. Mj carried that 1998 team which is something bron stans like to ignore.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166278]Mj carried that 1998 team which is something bron stans like to ignore.[/QUOTE]

The same reason people ignore Santa Claus: it doesn't exist.

Rodman was all-D first team in 96' and got DPOY votes. In 97' and 98' he was still elite--ask Karl Malone...

98'? Pippen wrecked the Indiana and Utah offenses from even operating normally. His back flared up in Game 5 of the 98' finals but he was FMVP front-runner before that (anyone can Google "Pippen 1998 finals MVP" and see what people were saying).

Kukoc also was good in the 98' playoffs (after having a terrible 97' playoffs due to a foot injury). He outplayed Miller in the ECF and in Game 7. When Pippen got hurt in the finals, Kukoc stepped up to average 23 PPG in the final two games. Kukoc put up 15 PPG in the series when Stockton/Hornacek [U]combined[/U] for 20 PPG.

These facts are "spun" as "MJ carried." There is a consistent theme: MJ fans have to manufacture carry jobs because he doesn't have any during those finals run, unlike LeBron. Karl Malone would have a ring if he was on the Bulls and Jordan on the Jazz.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166278]His teams definitely weren't stacked. Rod was 35 and like 3 years outside of his last all star year. He was still a great defender and rebounder but he only scored 6 points a game or so. I can only imagine how much bron stans would devalue rod if he was on brons team. Mj stans do the same though and both are idiots tbh. Towards the last chip both rod and pip were shells of themselves. Rod was no longer one of the best defenders in the league and pips back hampered his play on both ends. Mj carried that 1998 team which is something bron stans like to ignore.[/QUOTE]
LeBron played with the poor man's Rodman winning a title with him in 2016. I'm happy to give him full props because he did his job well. They probably couldn't have won without him. Having Rodman would have been even better.

LeBron is an overrated defender who didn't even deserve all of the All-Defensive nods that he got.

Rod was a great defender who could still matchup against and stop (or in the case of the mammoth Shaq, slow) oversized opponents. He could bump in the post and was especially lockdown at the end of games. He would have been sufficiently versatile to go out on the wing like Dwight does and serve as a fourth perimeter defender, but it wasn't needed in the Bulls loaded system. Additionally, he still garnered league-leading defensive rebounding numbers.

If you want to talk about Rodman, make a Rodman thread instead of another LeBron thread.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166290]The same reason people ignore Santa Claus: it doesn't exist.

Rodman was all-D first team in 96' and got DPOY votes. In 97' and 98' he was still elite--ask Karl Malone...

98'? Pippen wrecked the Indiana and Utah offenses from even operating normally. His back flared up in Game 5 of the 98' finals but he was FMVP front-runner before that (anyone can Google "Pippen 1998 finals MVP" and see what people were saying).

Kukoc also was good in the 98' playoffs (after having a terrible 97' playoffs due to a foot injury). He outplayed Miller in the ECF and in Game 7. When Pippen got hurt in the finals, Kukoc stepped up to average 23 PPG in the final two games. Kukoc put up 15 PPG in the series when Stockton/Hornacek [U]combined[/U] for 20 PPG.

These facts are "spun" as "MJ carried." There is a consistent theme: MJ fans have to manufacture carry jobs because he doesn't have any during those finals run, unlike LeBron. Karl Malone would have a ring if he was on the Bulls and Jordan on the Jazz.[/QUOTE]

Rodmam definitely wasn't elite in in 98. He was still a great rebounder but he had a career low in pts and didnt make a defensive team. Yeah he got like 2 votes for dpoy but he was nowhere near winning it. Mookie Blaylock had more votes lol.

And pip wasn't elite either. He also had a career low in points in the playoffs. Mj nearly scored 20 more points a game. They were both still very good but they weren't elite. Its funny how bron stans will use stats as why bron is the goat but they totally ignore it when looking at pip.

[QUOTE=72-10;14166299]LeBron is an overrated defender who didn't even deserve all of the All-Defensive nods that he got.[/QUOTE]

72-10
boiiii you are hurting off 73-9

:roll::roll::oldlol:

[QUOTE=Ainosterhaspie;14166298]LeBron played with the poor man's Rodman winning a title with him in 2016. I'm happy to give him full props because he did his job well. They probably couldn't have won without him. Having Rodman would have been even better.[/QUOTE]

Yeah probably. Im assuming your talking about Tristan thompson or maybe your talking about love. Im not sure how effective rod would be in this era. He was a very physical defender. He wouldn't be able to defend that way now. He'd also be out defending on the perimeter more so he probably wouldn't get as many boards.

[QUOTE=72-10;14166299]LeBron is an overrated defender who didn't even deserve all of the All-Defensive nods that he got.[/QUOTE]

This is wrong.

Patrick Beverly got all D this year and LeBron is 100% superior defensive player than Beverly for 2020. Lakers were top 3 defensive team. All the numbers prove it.

He deserved more All D teams.

[QUOTE=8Ball;14166338]This is wrong.

Patrick Beverly got all D this year and LeBron is 100% superior defensive player than Beverly for 2020. Lakers were top 3 defensive team. All the numbers prove it.

He deserved more All D teams.[/QUOTE]

Yes and no. When he tries he's better. He coasts alot during the reg season although this year wasn't as bad. I thought he could of got a defensive team this year. No chance he deserved one in the last few years Pryor though.

Between 2009-2014 all of LeBron's teams were elite defensively. Lakers were monstrous defensively.

So Bron got shafted out of 2020 all D team.

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;14166315]Rodmam definitely wasn't elite in in 98. He was still a great rebounder but he had a career low in pts and didnt make a defensive team. Yeah he got like 2 votes for dpoy but he was nowhere near winning it. Mookie Blaylock had more votes lol.

And pip wasn't elite either. He also had a career low in points in the playoffs. Mj nearly scored 20 more points a game. They were both still very good but they weren't elite. Its funny how bron stans will use stats as why bron is the goat but they totally ignore it when looking at pip.[/QUOTE]

Scoring was down for everybody as the pace slowed. Stockton and Hornacek put up 20 PPG combined in the same series MJ fans complain about Pippen/Kukoc scoring 31 PPG.

Pippen missed half the season and made all-NBA anyway. :lol That is something only elite players do (Kyrie couldn't do it when he was hurt in 16').

If Rodman didn't limit Malone, the Jazz would have won.