Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

[QUOTE]Elgin Baylor is another legend who's games per year was less than KJ. I think I confused him with Wilt. Yet I always see Elgin at the top.[/QUOTE]

Just so you know....

Elgin played before the league bumped up its games per season. The NBA only played 72 games his first couple years. Then it moved to 79. I think it stopped at like 80 and 81 too. He didnt have an injured season till he was 30. In 62 he wasnt hurt. He was in the Army and they called him to serve. They only let him play 2 times a week. Thats why his numbers were so insane that year(38/19). He wanted to make sure they won every game he got to play. he had played 12 of his 14 seasons before he got a major injury.

Edit.

Beat me to it.

Lot of the old guys have some odd set of circumstances that has them playing fewer games than guys do today if you just look at the number played and dont check it beyond that.

KJ is my all time favorite Sun along with Rex Chapman.

He was one of the best penetrators I have ever seen at the PG position. I remember watching him play while I was growing up and thinking to myself that he could not be stopped when he really wanted to get to the rim.

Also strange to me to see them playing at good ol Veteran's Memorial.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Thing with this is every player from 35 and down has some flaw that keeps them that low. Something someone good with words who knows not to come off too crazy or aggressive could point out. For examples...Dave Cowens, bob Mcadoo, Pistol Pete, and Nique. Those are guys people might argue for in this range.

Cowens was arguably not the best player on his own team even as MVP. Hondo had insane numbers and got the love at the time from Boston. And Jojo White got him for a finals MVP too. Added to that he only had 5 healthy all star seasons.

Mcadoo had a brief prime and was a role player(important one but still) by the time he won anything important.

Pistol Pete never won anything period.

Nique would be called just a scorer who never led a team as close to a title as KJ and never beat a team as good as the showtime lakers KJ beat.


All of that is true. The guys outside the elite are there for a reason. They were great....but didnt do anything to seperate themselves like the true all time elites did.

Because of it they dont have much one can use to dismiss a guy like KJ who was well rounded, with great numbers, and won a good bit(for a non all time elite).

But to put him that high you have to go against a lot of the usual standards people rank players by. Have to dismiss MVPs....titles...guys who had crazy high peaks but got hurt...innovators...all nba teams...reputation.

KJ did juuuuuuuust enough to earn mention in that long list that comes after 30 but before 100 but to put him closer to 30 than 100 takes a lot of work and a strong desire to put him as high as possible with no concern for the greatness or respect owed to a lot of legends.

Its easier to say "KJ is top 30-40" than to explain "If hes top 30-40 how come Tim Hardaway/Mark Price/Chris Mullin arent when they were considered on the same level in their primes?"

Its the biggest problem with ranking modern(even kinda modern) players so high. There are always guys we remember who were considered just as good....but dont get that credit now.

KJ is one of my favorite players of the 80s/90s but in all honesty....him at his peak vs Spre at his...Sprewell was probably considered the better player. I wouldnt say so. But in the 90s and late 80s KJ didnt seperate himself in the eye of the public from plenty of guys who nobody would dream of ranking this high.[/QUOTE]

I see what your saying on there isn't too much seperation between players after 30. After a little bit, it goes from "great" to "very good". And that very good is the 30-100 you were talking about.

But in that "very good" KJ sticks out. The only thing he was lacking was a ring. But everything else, he is nearly perfect. He had some injury problems, but so have many other stars, and his wasn't "that" bad. I think he only had 4 injury seasons as well. Seasons where he missed 16 games or more. Not that bad.

And once again, I really think the fact that he has played every playoff game makes up for a lot of it. He has been there when it counts. If your a team wanting to win the championship, having KJ is perfect. He will be there for you in the playoffs, when the "wins" and "losses" count the most. And he will perform at a high level. One of the guy's that stepped it up in the playoffs.

But bottom line, KJ really sticks out in the "Very Good 30-100" section. He really reallly is good.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Who the better player is isnt really my concern but I can tell you why I think many would rank Tiny higher.....


He peaked higher. 34/11 and second in MVP voting.
He didnt win as much in his youth but he didnt have the teammates. Ive heard his old coach mention that they had among the worst teams in the league and thats why he had to do everything. He played all 48 minutes like 50-60 times that season. He was on a terrible team that needed him. Not his fault they lost.
Even though his rep is as an injured player he only played under 70 games 5 times before age 34 and 2 of them were 68 and 69 games.
Even with injury issues he was an all star 6 times to KJs 3.
He was all nba first team 3 times to KJs none.
He scored more.
He was very good for the celtics(3 of his 6 all star games were with Boston). Many consider him the second best player on the 81 title team and he was the locker room leader and the captian of the team not Bird. He was also the all star MVP that year. his boston days are overlooked.

No matter if hes better or not...he did a good bit in his career. And hes got enough of those usual key features that get you noticed. He has a major record(only points and assists leader). He was nearly MVP(TSN voted him MVP one year). He won a title as a key player.

Hes got a lot going for him.[/QUOTE]


34/11? Thats great, but he didn't even make playoffs.

Actually, he only made the playoffs [b]once[/b] in his prime. 1 playoff app. in his prime

Honestly, I don't know how someone can rank a player who has been to the playoffs once in his prime, over a player who has been to the playoffs every year besides his rookie year where he only played 28 games for his team because of a trade.

Sure he had a bad starcast around him but,

1. He dominated the ball too much for them to even get involve or improve


Gary Payton in 2000, he had a bad starcast, worse than some of Archibald's, yet he was able to take his team to the playoffs.



The difference also between both of them is KJ makes his teammates better. Where Archibald doesn't, and that also explains his lack of good starcasts around him. Eddie Johnson and Tom Chambers both had their best years in Phoenix. And Chambers even sadi "KJ made me the player I am today" at his peak.


1 playoff appearance in his prime, no matter how bad your starcast is, thats just unacceptable. He was also traded to 3 DIFFERENT teams in his prime, yet still 1 playoff app in his prime.



As for Tiny's numbers. The main reason he put up such high numbers was because he controlled the ball all the time. His didn't think too highly of his teammates, and always had the ball, bringing up his overall numbers.

Seriously, whats the point of all the great numbers if your team isn't winning? 34/11, thats great, but you don't even make it to the playoffs.

Its not that hard to put up good numbers, when you dominate the ball, and actually lessen your chances of winning, while putting up good numbers.





There more advantages for KJ, but I think you get the point.

He dominated the ball too much? While looking for footage for this I watched an NBA video called "Below the rim" on the all time best little men. tiny was in there. his coach and teammates didnt seem to think he dominated the ball too much. They seemed to think he did as asked. His coach flat out said he asked him to do everything to make up for the lack of talent on the team. I tend to side with the people who played with and coached him. Sure he had a scorers mentality but its hard to blame him for doing as asked or to say he hurt his teammates when ive heard his teammates say otherwise and talk up how good he was at finding them.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]34/11? Thats great, but he didn't even make playoffs.

Actually, he only made the playoffs [b]once[/b] in his prime. 1 playoff app. in his prime

Honestly, I don't know how someone can rank a player who has been to the playoffs once in his prime, over a player who has been to the playoffs every year besides his rookie year where he only played 28 games for his team because of a trade.

Sure he had a bad starcast around him but,

1. He dominated the ball too much for them to even get involve or improve


Gary Payton in 2000, he had a bad starcast, worse than some of Archibald's, yet he was able to take his team to the playoffs.



The difference also between both of them is KJ makes his teammates better. Where Archibald doesn't, and that also explains his lack of good starcasts around him. Eddie Johnson and Tom Chambers both had their best years in Phoenix. And Chambers even sadi "KJ made me the player I am today" at his peak.


1 playoff appearance in his prime, no matter how bad your starcast is, thats just unacceptable. He was also traded to 3 DIFFERENT teams in his prime, yet still 1 playoff app in his prime.



As for Tiny's numbers. The main reason he put up such high numbers was because he controlled the ball all the time. His didn't think too highly of his teammates, and always had the ball, bringing up his overall numbers.

Seriously, whats the point of all the great numbers if your team isn't winning? 34/11, thats great, but you don't even make it to the playoffs.

Its not that hard to put up good numbers, when you dominate the ball, and actually lessen your chances of winning, while putting up good numbers.





There more advantages for KJ, but I think you get the point.[/QUOTE]
But when he did get players around him, he still put numbers (though not as great), made All-NBA and All-Star teams, won All-Star MVP and helped Boston to a title.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]I think Terry Porter got in that season.[/QUOTE]

Actually, Porter made the All-Star team in 1991, as one of five points guards on the Western Conference's roster. The others were K.J. and Magic (who started), plus Stockton and Tim Hardaway. Here are highlights from that game, with a bizarre ending involving K.J.:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl8Nnsz9bKY[/url]

And here's the box score (K.J. recorded a game-high 7 assists, 3 of which you can see in that video):

[url]http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/all_star_game/1991.htm[/url]

In 1989, the West featured one point guard in Stockton (after Magic withdrew due to injury) and four centers. Olajuwon was a superstar and the retiring Abdul-Jabbar was the sentimental choice, but even Mark Eaton and Kevin Duckworth somehow received the nod over K.J. Eaton was a great defender and Duckworth was a talented offensive center, but neither was a complete player and one would have thought that K.J. would have at least been Magic's replacement. He was indeed perennially underrated.

Ironically, the 6'1" K.J. dunked on both Eaton and Duckworth that season. Here was his climb-and-slide-down-the-mountain-man-ladder dunk on the 7'4" Eaton:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEoMsHHfa4[/url]

Here's the box score for the 1989 All-Star Game:

[url]http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/all_star_game/1989.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855][url]http://www.sendspace.com/file/i0ttke[/url]

[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=zqfRC9GEyYE[/url]

Not the highest quality at all points(and youtube doesnt help) but lets see you get 3 minutes of prime mostly pre Barkley Kevin Johnson footage. Its mostly from old NBA action tapes, a few home videos, and other sources. Left out the Bulls 93 title video footage. Wanted more of his pre injury days.

Now....

Hes one of the few to lead a team past a Magic Johnson led team when Magic was actually playing. Moses Malone, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, and Kevin Johnson. Magic was hurt when they played the Pistons and got swept. Hamstring issue. Him and Magic are the only 20+ point 10+ assists 50% shooting players ever and both of them did it twice. Some choose to consider Tom Chambers the leader of those suns but its no different than Nash and Amare. Anyone giving Nash credit for the Suns should probably give KJ credit for his. Both had crazy talent to do what they did but not all talented teams come together so well..

Think these suns are great scorers? KJ was leading some of the best offensive teams anyone could hope to see. Hed led a 119ppg team one season. The brief "This day in history" clip in the video is from a game the Suns scored 173 points in regulation. One season they had 130 in 3 of the first 4 games of the season. Later that year they had 3 130+ point games in a 3 week stretch and dropped 138 points 3 days after the last of those. They topped 120 in 3 of the last 4 games of that season with a game of 141. They only went under 100 points in 3 games one season. Gave the warriors 154. They had 3 straight playoff games with over 130 points. KJ probably led the greatest offense of the last quarter century outside the early 80s Nuggets and Showtime(who never actually scored 119 a game as the Suns did).

When Nash went off in the 05 playoffs he had people saying it proved he was MVP. He put up 24 and 11 that playoff run. Kevin Johnson had long playoff runs(10 games or more 3 of them to the WCF) getting:

24/12
24/12(not a mistake he did it in 2 seasons)
27 and 10
25/9(shot 57% that run too)

And really he could have put up more assists but the Suns had an oldschool style of fastbreak. They didnt just run with the ball they broke out like wide recievers and had guys throwing full court outlet passes. In the video I showed clips from a Suns/heat game where Kevin did a lot of what im talking about. Get the rebound and toss it 80 feet for the layup or to a teammate who then gets the assist by hitting the open man. He might have averaged more assists if he kept the ball himself more on the break.

In the halfcourt he had a good bit of scoring responsibility. He didnt lead them in ppg but id say he was their best one on one scorer. Bit of a TJ ford and Wade hybrid. Always willing to pass but he could get to the basket at will.

And his defense. He wasnt an elite defender but he was great on the ball when he had to be. Even guarded Michael Jordan pretty well at times even though the bigger(and all D team level defender) Majerle was on the team. List of current points you could throw on Jordan is not long.

Im not saying hes top 30-50 all time as a few do but he sure as hell wasnt worse than Steve Nash.

[IMG]http://www.nba.com/media/suns/kevin_johnson_190.jpg[/IMG]

Praise KJ.[/QUOTE]

Great video, thanks a lot for posting it. I'd been waiting for someone to compile an extensive K.J. montage.

GMAT, do you have any photos of KJ on Dream Team II? I can't find any on google

One advantage that K.J. would hold over Archibald is that he was a better shooter and he shot superior field goal percentages. Archibald's were pretty effective (career .467), but K.J. was extremely efficient for a point guard who also happened to be a dominant scorer (career .493, with three full seasons above .500, two others at .499, and another at .496). K.J. was also the more prolific playmaker (career 9.1 assists to Archibald's 7.4), the more productive rebounder (career 3.4 rebounds to Archibald's 2.3), and the somewhat better free throw shooter (career .841 to Archibald's .810).

Here's a February 1991 article from the [I]New York Times[/I] that quotes Archibald on K.J. and also compares the two rather extensively. I'll copy it for your reading pleasure.

[B]PRO BASKETBALL; Speedy Johnson Races to the Top
GOLDAPER, SAM. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Feb 10, 1991. pg. A.6

He is nearly 25 years old, looks younger and has an altar boy demeanor. He is earning $1,750,000 this season and will reach $2,750,000 in 1995 as part of his seven-year, $15 million contract. Not bad for someone who grew up in the poor section of Sacramento, Calif., thinking baseball rather than basketball.

He is Kevin Johnson, K. J to some, the point guard of blinding speed, quickness, athleticism, passing ability and penetration for the Phoenix Suns. He is also the starting point guard for the Western Conference in today's National Basketball Association All-Star Game in Charlotte, N.C.

While Johnson has gained increasing individual recognition, he has been even more impressive as a part of the team resurgence of the Suns, who have risen from 28 victories in 1987-88 to become a title contender in the last three seasons.

"He has meant everything to this team," said Cotton Fitzsimmons, who took over as the Suns' coach for the 1988-89 season.

That was the season Johnson gained membership in the exclusive 20-10 club by averaging 20.4 points and 12.2 assists a game. He was in lofty company: Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson and Nate Archibald are the only other players to have accomplished the feat in the history of the N.B.A. He did it again last year and is well on his way to a reprise again this season, averaging 22.2 points (14th in the league), 10.1 assists (4th) and 2.5 steals (5th) after 46 games.

Johnson, who prefers using "we," instead of "I," would rather not discuss being a member of that illustrious club.

But when pressed, he did.

"It wasn't my goal; it's just something that occurred," Johnson said. "My goal is always for the team to have a successful season. Magic and Isiah are my contemporaries and they have championship rings. So does Robertson and Archibald. If I want to be considered in their category, I've got to get a ring. That's how I look at it."

Johnson is often compared with outstanding players past and present, and the same names keep coming up. An informal survey of several players, coaches and general managers produced opinions that the right-handed Sun guard can penetrate like Magic Johnson, is as quick with the ball as John Stockton, and is as good with his left hand as Larry Bird.

But the name that surfaced most often in the comparisons was that of Nate (Tiny) Archibald, the only player ever to have led the N.B.A. in both scoring (34.0) and assists (11.4). He did it playing for the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 1972-73 season.

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."

Tom Chambers, Johnson's high-scoring teammate, said, "K. J. has the quickest first step I've ever seen."

Rory Sparrow, the Sacramento Kings' playmaker, said: "He has unbelievable quickness and is a great jumper. He's very tough to guard. The best way to do it is to back off on him and make him prove he can consistently hit the outside jumper."

"K. J. is a rocket," said Maurice Cheeks, the Knicks' point guard. "He's so explosive that he almost invites you to double-team him so he can get by you."

"Tiny was slicker," said Fitzsimmons, who has coached many other outstanding point guards, Archibald and Phil Ford among them, in his 18 years as an N.B.A. coach. "He really knew how to maneuver. Kevin has a great step to basket and is a more physical player. I take him for granted; he's the best I've ever coached. The only way to stop Kevin is to hold him. If the officials don't curtail it, he's unstoppable."

Paul Westphal and Lionel Hollins, both former All-Star guards, now assistant coaches with the Suns, have helped Johnson expand his natural repertory. Naturally ambidextrous, Westphal, who is scheduled to be the Suns' coach when Fitzsimmons retires, has taught Johnson to use the left-hand drive. Hollins has shown him how to use his body and the rim to frustrate shot blockers and how to better find the open man when he is double-teamed.

The 6-foot-1-inch Johnson has become one of the league's most productive point guards in just four pro seasons after a rocky start.

In 1987, his selection as the seventh player in the draft by the Cleveland Cavaliers was met with boos and groans of disappointment by fans. Few had heard of Johnson and some skeptics even questioned the sanity of Wayne Embry, the general manager, who drafted him.

Embry was sure he had made the correct choice.

The Cavs had done their homework well. Johnson, who attended the University of California, was the Golden Bears' career leader in scoring (1,665 points), assists (521) and steals (155).

"We watched films and liked what we saw," Embry said. "We got good reports on him from everywhere but it was his play at the Aloha Classic in Hawaii that moved him up as a lottery pick in most everyone's estimation."

Johnson, describing his trip to Hawaii as "one for business," said he went there to show everyone that "I was a true point guard."

"I had to beat the rap of being a shooting guard in a point guard's body," he said.

Embry was more certain he had made the right choice when he and Gary Fitzsimmons, the Cavaliers' player-personnel director, went to the airport to pick up Johnson for his first news conference. Gary Fitzsimmons is Cotton's son.

"The kid had great personality," Embry said. "As he got off the plane, it was like President Reagan had arrived. He was smiling, joking around and shaking every hand in sight."

But the Cavaliers already had a point guard, a good one at that, in Mark Price. Rather than let one of them languish on the bench, four months into Johnson's rookie season, Johnson was the central figure in a five-player trade that brought Larry Nance to Cleveland.

"We didn't think they could survive together," said Embry, who said he remained a fan of Johnson. "Mark needed the playing time and so did Kevin."

Johnson looks back at his rookie season with Cleveland, when he averaged 20 minutes in 52 games, as a learning experience. "There was a night and day difference between Price and myself," he said. "He taught me so much in a short period of time. I told myself that when I came back for my second season, I would implement all the things he taught me. Whether it was practice or a game, he did everything with the same consistency. He took 500 shots in practice every day, maybe more. If he would have given me one inch, I thought I would have been able to challenge him for the job. He never gave me that inch."

Johnson likes playing in the Pacific Division, and with the Suns in particular, where the offense is more suited to his game.

"Cleveland was a half-court team," he said, "geared to go inside and slow it up. Here, we run and push the ball up the court and, play tough defense. Our objective is to run and outhustle the opposition at both ends of the court."

Johnson believes that "it was one of the greatest trades of all time."

"It was meant to benefit both teams and it has," he said.

A lot of good things have happened to Johnson in Phoenix, the latest of which has been his elevation to starter in the All-Star Game.

What a difference a year makes. The Western Conference coaches voted him on to last year's team as a reserve. But he was in awe of being in the company of Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Akeem Olajuwon and felt more like a spectator than a participant.

"I was so excited I didn't even care if I played," he said. "It was just a dream come true to have my name announced during the introductions and to sit on the bench and be able to listen to Pat Riley in the huddle asking Magic who he wanted to guard on defense, Larry Bird or Michael Jordan."

Today, he will be playing alongside Magic in an all-Johnson starting backcourt.

[Photograph]
Kevin Johnson driving around John Stockton of the Jazz. (Reuters)

[Illustration]
"Watching a Sun Rise," showing Kevin Johnson's year-by-year statistics. [/B]

[QUOTE=AppleNader]GMAT, do you have any photos of KJ on Dream Team II? I can't find any on google[/QUOTE]

Here's one of K.J. and Team USA/Phoenix Suns teammate Dan Majerle with their gold medals:

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/news/00382493.html[/url]

If I run into any action photos, I'll let you know.

What's curious is the differing philosohpies that defenders held when it came to guarding K.J. In the article that I posted above, Rory Sparrow talked about playing off K.J. and letting him shoot the jumper. However, in the following [I]Los Angeles Times[/I] article on the eve of the 1989 Western Conference Finals between the Lakers and Suns, L.A.'s Byron Scott stated that the best way to play K.J. was hard-and-tight rather than giving him room for his jumper. Naturally, K.J. could beat a defender both ways and force him into a tough choice.

Again, I'll copy the article for your reading pleasure.

[B]NBA PLAYOFFS A WEAKNESS? If Lakers Have One, It May Be Playing One-on-One Defense; [Home Edition]
SAM McMANIS. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 19, 1989. pg. 1

Spontaneity seemingly has no place in Pat Riley's regimented practices, where every action must have a purpose.

So, when Riley interrupted a half-court drill during the Lakers' first pre-playoff practice late last month, it was understood that he had something significant to say to his players. Riley spoke passionately and convincingly to his players about their perceived defensive weakness. He cited scouting reports obtained from obliging opponents, plus another report elicited from an independent scout, all noting that the way to beat the Lakers is to exploit their defensive matchups.

Assured that the point had been made, Riley folded his practice notes into thirds, tucked them into the back pocket of his khakis and went back to silent observation.

"That was a motivational tool," said Riley, when reminded of his short speech. "A lot of that was for attitude. We were building a challenge in them, like, `If that's what they think about us, then . . . ' I mean, I wanted them to know that other people don't think they can guard them."

That evaluation, however, cannot be totally dismissed. There is some truth, it seems, in the assessment that one of the Lakers' few problem areas is individual defense-as opposed to team defense, such as their effective half-court trap.

"It has to be a little realistic, because that's what other teams are saying," said Michael Cooper, the Lakers' defensive specialist. "We had lapses, sure. But it was a different intensity in the regular season."

So far in the playoffs, however, the Lakers have proved those appraisals either inaccurate or obsolete. In sweeping the first two rounds, against Portland and Seattle, the Lakers have given up nearly six fewer points a game than during the regular season.

But the Lakers, who credit their defensive resurgence to greater intensity and concerted effort, will face their biggest challenge yet starting Saturday, when they play the Phoenix Suns in Game 1 of the Western Conference finals.

The Suns, led by quick point guard Kevin Johnson and high-scoring forward Tom Chambers, averaged 116.8 points against the Lakers during the regular season, when the teams split six games. And, so far in the playoffs, the Suns are averaging 122.8 points a game, more than any other playoff team.

Though respectful of Phoenix's offensive capabilities, the Lakers say they are confident they can harness the Suns' powerful running game. If so, the Lakers will have to once again prove wrong the scouts who said they have trouble stopping open-court and isolation moves the Suns often use.

"Those other teams that sent us reports, they always said the same thing," Riley said. "It was, `Take it at them, beat them off the dribble. There's an opinion around that we don't have good individual defenders.

"But, in this league, against the many offensive talents, there aren't many good individual (defensive) players. Everybody gets beat off the dribble sometimes. But you got to keep that to a minimum.

"(The scouts) got to look at something and ask, `What can we attack?' Look at our starting lineup. Magic (Johnson) is a 6-9 guard and even though he is an excellent team defender-probably the best team defender in the NBA-he cannot really contain point guards. There's a physiological difference.

"Byron (Scott) can guard and can contain point guards. James (Worthy) and A. C. (Green) are thought of as guys that aren't good defending out on the floor (away from the basket). And, then, Kareem (Abdul-Jabbar) . . .

"Teams think they can break us down. So, we see a lot of isolation and putting the ball on the floor."

The Lakers already have faced such tactics against the Trail Blazers and the SuperSonics in their first two series and were hardly threatened. Through seven playoff games, opponents have made only 44% of their shots against the Lakers.

The combination of tough individual and team defense, in the form of switches and traps, enabled the Lakers to hold Dale Ellis and Xavier McDaniel, Seattle's scoring threats, to 42% and 43% shooting, respectively. And, in the first round, Portland's Clyde Drexler made 49% of his shots.

"I'm pleased," Riley said. "We're doing a better job individually, cutting the (uncontested drives to the basket) down to a minimum. Once they apply themselves, our guys are capable of guarding people."

The Suns, however, present matchup problems because they often play without a center. They also favor a fast-break offense-"You can't really call it a passing game," Riley said-and spread the court for Kevin Johnson in half-court situations.

Johnson is the Western Conference's version of Detroit's Isiah Thomas, but he may even be quicker and more of a scoring threat. In six games against the Lakers this season, he averaged 22.5 points and 16 assists.

Probably drawing the assignment against Johnson will be Scott, with considerable relief by Cooper. Both talked as if it would be their toughest assignment in the playoffs, even if they end up playing Thomas and the Pistons again in the finals.

"The fact that he can shoot and drive presents a problem," Scott said. "You can't play him just one way. You can't say, `I'll play him back and make him shoot the jumper,' because that's what he likes to do. You've got to get up on him and play him as tough as possible."

And risk having Johnson simply drive around him for a layup or easy assist.

"You can't be scared of his quickness, because he might beat you anyway," Scott added. "Myself and Coop are more aware now what he likes to do and what he does best. We can't relax at all when we're on him. When you relax or straighten up, just for a second, he's gone."

Even stopping Johnson, were that possible, would not ensure stopping the Suns. Chambers averaged 20.5 points against the Lakers and the Suns' other Johnson, sixth-man Eddie, averaged 22.4.

"We've got to stop two of their three threats," Cooper said. "That's the same line of attack (the Lakers used) against Seattle, where we had to stop two of the three-McDaniel, Ellis or (Derrick) McKey-in order to win.

"There's no way we can beat these guys with two of them getting 30 and holding one down, and then having guys like (Dan) Majerle and (Tyron) Corbin come in and hurt us."

If the Lakers manage to contain Johnson and the rest of the Suns, and advance to the championship series for the third straight season, maybe those scouting reports will have to be amended.

Not that Laker players believed them much anyway.

"They were just looking at us in the regular season," Scott said of the scouts. "That's not the same. We've shown already that we're playing different. Everybody here plays stronger and more intense in the playoffs. But you'd have to say, definitely, this will be our toughest (defensive) test."

Cooper said he has heard the criticism of the Laker defense before. "People have always said that about this club, that we're weak," he said. "Yet, we somehow always manage to pull it off. I don't think there's a weak link on any individual on this club. It's just a matter of asserting ourselves."

Riley said that he, too, believes in the Lakers' defensive capabilities, that he just felt compelled to make his players aware of what others are saying.

"I wanted (the scouts) to be very critical, as well as telling us our good parts," Riley said. "There are a number of parts of our game that can be looked at critically."

No doubt, Laker players will eventually hear about them.

Laker Notes

Guard Byron Scott aggravated his bruised right wrist Thursday in practice while trying to dunk over teammate Orlando Woolridge. Scott had the wrist taped by trainer Gary Vitti and continued practicing. . . . For the first time in eight seasons, Laker guard Michael Cooper was not voted onto either the all-defensive first or second team by NBA coaches. However, Laker power forward A.C. Green made the second team.

Said Cooper: "There were a lot of good defensive players this year. It just gives me more incentive to play hard the rest of this season and next year. I've built a reputation on (defense). Not making it this year isn't going to make me or break me. But I've marked my consistency by it."

[Illustration]
PHOTO: Phoenix point guard Kevin Johnson, dribbling past Chicago's John Paxson during a regular-season game (left), figures to give the Lakers problems matching up defensively during the Western Conference finals. Johnson, who averaged 22.5 points and 16 assists in six games against the Lakers this season, is sometimes compared to Detroit's Isiah Thomas.; PHOTO: (Orange County Edition) Byron Scott of the Lakers attempts to cut off SuperSonic guard Nate McMillan. The Lakers will likely find their one-to-one defense challenged in the conference finals against Phoenix. / Associated Press; PHOTO: Byron Scott (above) will probably draw the assignment of guarding Johnson and will get relief help from Michael Cooper (below). [/B]

Indeed, a [I]New York Times [/I]article from right about the same time notes that K.J. had become "an excellent outside shooter."

[B]Cool Presence in Phoenix
CLIFTON BROWN, Special to The New York Times. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: May 26, 1989. pg. A.26

Most athletes have a ritual they use to relax before games. Some listen to music. Others meditate.

Kevin Johnson reads the Bible. Perhaps that is fitting, because Johnson's emergence at point guard this season has been a godsend for the Phoenix Suns.

''It's kind of scary that Kevin is so good already,'' said Eddie Johnson, the Suns forward. ''I mean, he's only 23 years old, so he should get better. With his ability, the only way he won't get better is if he lets all the attention he's getting go to his head. But with him, that won't happen. He's too levelheaded. He's definitely the driving force behind this team.''

It will take all of Johnson's resolve, plus his teammates', to beat the Los Angeles Lakers in the Western Conference championship. Los Angeles leads the four-of-seven-game series, 2-0, as the teams prepare for the third game Friday night in Phoenix.

Johnson is averaging 24.5 points and 14 assists per game so far in the series, yet he is still unhappy with his play. He scored just 2 points in the second half Tuesday night as the Lakers overcame an 8-point deficit to win, 101-95.

To have a realistic chance of winning this series, the Suns think they must win at home on Friday and Sunday. The Lakers are unbeaten (10-0) during the playoffs, but Phoenix won all three home games against the Lakers this season. One of those streaks will end on Friday. Johnson hopes the Lakers' streak ends.

On-the-Job Maturity

''We've grown up a lot the last two games,'' Johnson said. ''The Lakers' experience has been the main reason they've won the first two games. You can just feel their confidence on the court. The playoffs are a way of life for them, and we're still trying to figure out how to approach the games. By the second half on Tuesday, I was mentally drained. I wanted to come out aggressive, but I was too keyed up. Then late in the game, I had nothing left.

''But at home, we're more confident. It's really important that I get my teammates involved early: make good passes, penetrate, anything I can to control the game and my team's destiny. We've had a great year, but we're not satisfied. We think we can still win this series.''

Considering what Johnson has accomplished this season, he has reason to be confident. He became only the fifth player in National Basketball Association history to average more than 20 points and 10 assists in the same season. Oscar Robertson, Nate Archibald, Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas are the others.

Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter. When asked how Johnson could be contained, Cotton Fitzsimmons, the Suns' coach, smiled and said: ''There are only a few ways to contain Kevin. You can double-team him. You can foul him. You can hurt him. Or you can put a saddle on him. Other than that, you can't stop him.''

Quickness Is His Defense

Michael Cooper, the Lakers' defensive specialist, who has alternated with Byron Scott trying to check Johnson, said: ''No one in the league right now is quicker than Kevin. Some guys who aren't playing anymore have been as quick. But no one is quicker right now.

''With Kevin, the one thing we've tried to do is bump him, play him physically. He's only 6-foot-2, and when he goes into the lane, he's going to get knocked around. But he's so quick, he's going to hurt you, sooner or later. You just hope he doesn't hurt you enough to beat you.''

When Johnson was acquired from Cleveland in a trade midway through the 1987-88 season, he was the catalyst that rejuvenated the faltering Suns franchise. After a fine collegiate career at California, Johnson was Cleveland's first-round draft pick in 1987. But Johnson spent the first half of his rookie season backing up Mark Price, Cleveland's All-Star point guard.

Needing more frontcourt help, the Cavaliers sent Johnson, Mark West, Tyrone Corbin and two draft picks to Phoenix in February of last year for Larry Nance, Mike Sanders and a draft choice.

From the moment Johnson arrived in Phoenix, Fitzsimmons, who was then director of player personnel, made him the starting point guard and gave him the freedom to run the Suns' uptempo offense. Fitzsimmons has never regretted the decision. After winning 28 games last season, Phoenix won 55 games this season, the third-biggest one-year improvement in league history. Johnson was named the league's most improved player earlier this week, and Fitzsimmons was named coach of the year. Heat Shifted to Cleveland

''I probably had more confidence in Kevin when he came here than Kevin did,'' said Fitzsimmons, who took over as coach this season. ''The fans condemned the trade. The people wanted me out of town on the next train, but they wanted me under the train, not on it.

''It's funny how things work out. Now Wayne Embry, Cleveland's general manager, is taking a lot of heat in Cleveland because Kevin's playing so well. But people forget that when the Cavaliers drafted Kevin, noboby in Cleveland wanted him.

''Obviously they knew Kevin could play. But Mark Price developed better than they expected, and Price plays the halfcourt style that Cleveland plays better than Kevin does. I talked to Wayne Embry just this morning about the trade. Personally, I've never seen a trade work out better for both teams than that one.''

Not only has Johnson excelled on the court, he has also quickly become a favorite in the Phoenix community. He buys 10 tickets for each home game and distributes them to different people. He is a devout Christian who prefers spending his free evenings quietly at home.

Such a surprise was Johnson this season, he wasn't even listed on the All-Star ballot. But you can bet that won't happen again. And the Suns figure the best from Johnson is yet to come.

''I believe I'm going to be talking about Kevin Johnson for a long time,'' Fitzsimmons said. ''And personally, I couldn't be happier.'' The 20-10 Club The five players who have averaged as many as 20 points and 10 assists in a single season. Oscar Robertson Cincinnati Royals

[Table]
Season
Scoring
Assists


1961-62
30.8
11.4


1963-64
31.4
11.0


1964-65
30.4
11.5


1965-66
31.3
11.1


1966-67
30.5
10.7





Nate Archibald


Kansas City Kings


1972-73
34.0
11.4





Isiah Thomas


Detroit Pistons


1983-84
21.3
11.1


1984-85
21.2
13.9


1985-86
20.9
10.8


1986-87
20.6
10.0





Magic Johnson


Los Angeles Lakers


1986-87
23.9
12.2


1988-89
22.5
12.8





Kevin Johnson


Phoenix Suns


1988-89
20.4
12.2
[/B]

As for where K.J. would rank all-time, that's really a subjective question, but certainly a case can be made for the 21-40 range. Consider some of the elite circles that K.J. travels in when it comes to statistical performance.

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the seven players in NBA history[/B] to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in the same season (along with Oscar Robertson, Tiny Archibald, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Michael Adams, and Tim Hardaway).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in three different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and Magic Johnson).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the three players in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in three consecutive seasons (along with Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the five players in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 12.0 assists in a season (along with Kevin Porter, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, and John Stockton).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the six players in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 11.0 assists in two different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Steve Nash).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the five players in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 10.0 assists in four different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, and John Stockton).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the six players in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 18.0 points and 11.0 assists in a season (along with Oscar Robertson, Tiny Archibald, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, and Steve Nash).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 18.0 points and 11.0 assists in two different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and Magic Johnson).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history [/B]to recorded at least 30 points and 12 assists in three consecutive games (along with Oscar Robertson, Tiny Archibald, and Dwyane Wade).

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19890224.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/LAL19890226.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/POR19890228.html[/url]

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the five players in NBA history [/B]to have recorded at least 25 assists in a single game (along with Scott Skiles, John Stockton, Nate McMillan, and Jason Kidd).

[url]http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1993&b=19940406&tm=PHO[/url]

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 15.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season (along with Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Steve Nash).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the three players in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 18.0 points, 11.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season (along with Magic Johnson and Steve Nash).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is one of the two players in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season (along with Magic Johnson).

*[B]Kevin Johnson is the only player in NBA history [/B]to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, and 2.0 steals in the same season.


Then consider that in 1998, the [I]Sporting News[/I] named K.J., along with Isiah Thomas, as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s (behind Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler on the First Team). K.J. set new NBA records for minutes played in an NBA Finals game (62, in Game Three of the 1993 NBA Finals) and consecutive made free throws in a playoff game (21, in Game Seven of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals, since tied by Paul Pierce in Game One of the 2003 Eastern Conference First Round). In three career Game Sevens, K.J. averaged 31.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .933 free throw percentage. In short, he was a big-game player in addition to all of his elite statistical accomplishments (in six career winner-take-all playoff games, K.J. averaged 27.2 points and 9.3 assists).

To quote Pat Riley after Game Five of the 1990 Western Conference Semifinals, in which K.J. had scored 37 points (14-23 FG, 9-10 FT) and delivered 8 assists to lead Phoenix's elimination of L.A., "Kevin Johnson is a unique player." In sending the 63-win Lakers to their earliest playoff exit since 1981, K.J. had averaged 29.7 points and 11.3 assists in the last three games of the series, including 33.5 points and 12.0 assists in the last two. In fourteen games against the eventual champion Houston Rockets in the 1994 and 1995 playoffs, K.J. averaged 27.2 points and 9.6 assists, including 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage (28-29 FT) in the two Game Sevens. As Hakeem Olajuwon wrote on page 282 of his 1996 autobiography,[I] Living the Dream[/I], about K.J. in Game Seven of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals, "Every time I looked K.J. was driving. When he wasn't penetrating he was pulling up and hitting his jump shots. He was just incredible. It's a trial just being on the same court with someone who is playing so well."

Or consider a couple quotes regarding Game Four of that series, in Houston. Behind K.J.'s 43 points (18-24 FG, 7-7 FT), 9 assists, 6 rebounds, and 3 steals, the Suns had rallied out of a 15-point third quarter hole and squeezed out a 114-110 road playoff victory. In the fourth quarter of that game, NBC play-by-play man Dick Enberg stated the following:

[B]Kevin Johnson is playing like he invented the game of basketball.[/B]

Or consider the following quotation from Suns' center Joe Kleine afterward, as reported on page 37 of the May 22, 1995 edition of [I]Sports Illustrated[/I]:

[B]When Kevin plays like that, you just get out of his way. Go where he tells you to go and then just stand there and watch the master. [/B]

Seems about 80% of that is some combo of points and assists. Its impressive but its all basically one thing.

[QUOTE]As for where K.J. would rank all-time, that's really a subjective question, but certainly a case can be made for the 21-40 range.[/QUOTE]

No way in hell is Kevin Johnson anywhere starting with a 2. The mere fact that there are 26 MVPs and and like 19-20 guys to lead a team to a title(not all of them on both lists) should throw out any consideration for him being in that area. Barring a few exceptions(and not enough to drop the list under 21) anyone to lead a team to a title or win the MVP should probably be over Kevin Johnson.

Too many accomplishments have to be disregarded to put him that high. Elvin Hayes was a 27/18 player in his prime, led the L in points and rebounds, made several time all nba first teams, 12 all star teams in a row, went to 3 finals and won a title. And he isnt even ranked in the low 20s by most.

Way too many crazy accomplished people to throw KJ that high because to dismiss half of them you have to prop up his winning and bash them for losing and the rest you have to prop up his individual talent and bash the legends who won but didnt have KJs numbers. No consistient way to wipe out that many legends. The reasoning would begin to conflict real fast.

If people with both MVPs and multiple titles as elite players have to be dismissed to put him that high its just not right to try. I mean....I love Scottie Pippen. And hes got a better case than KJ for top 21 but I cant put him over the quality of people id have to to make that case.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Seems about 80% of that is some combo of points and assists. Its impressive but its all basically one thing.



No way in hell is Kevin Johnson anywhere starting with a 2. The mere fact that there are 26 MVPs and and like 19-20 guys to lead a team to a title(not all of them on both lists) should throw out any consideration for him being in that area. Barring a few exceptions(and not enough to drop the list under 21) anyone to lead a team to a title or win the MVP should probably be over Kevin Johnson.

Too many accomplishments have to be disregarded to put him that high. Elvin Hayes was a 27/18 player in his prime, led the L in points and rebounds, made several time all nba first teams, 12 all star teams in a row, went to 3 finals and won a title. And he isnt even ranked in the low 20s by most.

Way too many crazy accomplished people to throw KJ that high because to dismiss half of them you have to prop up his winning and bash them for losing and the rest you have to prop up his individual talent and bash the legends who won but didnt have KJs numbers. No consistient way to wipe out that many legends. The reasoning would begin to conflict real fast.

If people with both MVPs and multiple titles as elite players have to be dismissed to put him that high its just not right to try. I mean....I love Scottie Pippen. And hes got a better case than KJ for top 21 but I cant put him over the quality of people id have to to make that case.[/QUOTE]

K.J. was one of the best point guards in history, and I think that most of the great point guards in history start to fall into place in the 20-range. Indeed, a great point guard is more valuable and important than a great player at most other positions aside from center, because he leads an offense, catalyzes baskets, and directly effects the performance of his teammates. Now, I'm not saying that K.J. should necessarily rank that high, but once you reach the twenties, the discussion becomes extremely ambiguous and invites varying possibilities. That's all that I'm saying.

As for the statistical combinations, what separates K.J. in many of those cases is also field goal percentage. He was not just extremely prolific but also extremely efficient (and steals also separates him at one point). Aside from Magic Johnson, no one combined points, assists, and field goal percentage (the three most important statistical catgeories for a star point guard) better than K.J. did. And the point about points and assists is that K.J. is pretty close to the top of the mountain in NBA history in terms of combining them. In many ways, he epitomized the 20-10 point guard.

I don't think that being an MVP necessarily means everything, especially since the award is only pertinent in the context of one's era, and not all eras are created equal. Did Bob McAdoo, Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, or even Steve Nash lead their respective teams closer to a championship or to more overall success than K.J.? Was their level of play necessarily higher? McAdoo later won a couple championships, but only as a role player off the bench on the eighties Lakers, not as a star.

Likewise, not everyone who "led" a team to a title was superior to K.J. Was Chauncey Billups better? Who was really the leader on the '79 Sonics? And take a legend such as Bob Cousy, who shot .375 from the field for his career and never reached .400 in a single season. Yes, he won six championships with Bill Russell, but Russell won five more championships after Cousy retired. Cousy revolutionzed the game, but frankly, the record indicates that he was not indispensable in the least. He never led a team to elite status before Russell arrived, and Russell won nearly as many championships without Cousy as he won with him.

As for Scottie Pippen, he'd probably make my top twenty-five. He was arguably the greatest all-around small forward in history (taking into account both sides of the ball).

And for the record, the reason why I said "21-40" is because I was talking loosely in terms of a conceptual range based on the type of performance, production, and value that K.J. offered a team. I don't believe in exact rankings at all, for I feel that they represent a simplistic, contrived, cheap, and fallacious form of analysis that reflects the sadly technocratic and mechanical manner of modern thought. The idea that one player should be "21" and another should necessarily be "22," as if everyone can or should be discretely separated in descending fashion, is ludicrous and represents nothing but bureaucracy and the artificial sway of information science.

I will note that in March 2001, Hubie Brown told K.J. that he was one of the greatest players that Brown had ever seen, in March 2005, Steve "Snapper" Jones said during a telecast that "Everyone forgets what a great player Kevin Johnson was," and that in November 2006, Bill Walton stated during a telecast that K.J. was one of the "[I]brilliant[/I] players of [his] era."

Now, I'm not delusional enough to think that K.J. was a top-twenty all-time player, but nor am I simplistic enough to believe that just because Cousy won six rings by playing with Bill Russell, he was necessarily the better player than K.J., or that just because Archibald and Payton played for championship teams, they were necessarily superior. Merely adding up titles or awards can be misleading in a team sport.

You also are going to overlook his injuries it looks like.

Kevin Johnson anywhere in then 20's or 30's is not right. KJ was a great player, but top 20-40 is exclusive company and he just not on that level. He had a great 3-4 season run in the late 80's and early 90's but their are a tone of players who have had a good 3-4 season run and they aren't top 20-40. A Bernard King, Steve Nash, Walt Bellamy, types come to mind and those guys are not top 20-40 players.


How I rank Kevin Johnson among guards

[B]Tier One[/B]
Jordan, Magic, Robertson, West, ect.

[B]Tier Two[/B]
Kobe, Drexler, Ice Gervin, ect.

[B]Tier Three[/B]
Hal Greer, Pearl Monroe, Pistol Pete, Tiny, ect

[B]Tier Four[/B]
Sidney Moncrief, Fat Lever, Ray Allen

[B]Tier Five[/B]
Terry Porter, Andrew Toney, ect.


KJ could go anywhere from tier three to tier four on that list but know higher or lower.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Kevin Johnson anywhere in then 20's or 30's is not right. KJ was a great player, but top 20-40 is exclusive company and he just not on that level. He had a great 3-4 season run in the late 80's and early 90's but their are a tone of players who have had a good 3-4 season run and they aren't top 20-40. A Bernard King, Steve Nash, Walt Bellamy, types come to mind and those guys are not top 20-40 players.


How I rank Kevin Johnson among guards

[B]Tier One[/B]
Jordan, Magic, Robertson, West, ect.

[B]Tier Two[/B]
Kobe, Drexler, Ice Gervin, ect.

[B]Tier Three[/B]
Hal Greer, Pearl Monroe, Pistol Pete, Tiny, ect

[B]Tier Four[/B]
Sidney Moncrief, Fat Lever, Ray Allen

[B]Tier Five[/B]
Terry Porter, Andrew Toney, ect.


KJ could go anywhere from tier three to tier four on that list but know higher or lower.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. First, the fourth tier is much too low for K.J. Guards like Moncrief, Lever, and Allen were fine players, but they were limited in the kind of impact that they could make and where they could lead a team. The third tier is acceptable, but I think that K.J. could fit in quite well in the second tier. If you look at him and Drexler, their value was really pretty similar, and K.J. elevated his teammates in ways that Bryant and Gervin could not. There's more to basketball than volume scoring and one-on-one play, and in fact, I might place Archibald in the second tier as well.

You talk about K.J.'s three-four years, but they represented one of the best three-four year runs in NBA history, by anyone. From 1989-1991, K.J. became the third player ever to average at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in each of three consecutive seasons (joining Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas), averaging 21.7 points, 11.3 assists, a .507 field goal percentage, an .854 free throw percentage, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.7 steals. From 1989-1992, K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, an .843 free throw percentage, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.6 steals. I challenge you to find how many guards in NBA history have ever put up numbers at that level over a three or four-year stretch, especially combining that degree of production in both points and assists with that stratum of shooting efficiency. I believe that the only guy who'll you find at that level in each of the "big three" categories (points, assists, and field goal percentage, the three most important for a star guard) is Magic Johnson, who from 1987-1990 averaged 22.1 points, 12.1 assists, a .502 field goal percentage, and an .876 free throw percentage (plus 6.8 rebounds and 1.7 steals). The only other player who'll be in that ballpark is Oscar Robertson.

What's true of three-four years is also true of nine. Over a nine-season run from 1989-1997, K.J. averaged 19.8 points, 10.0 assists, and a .497 field goal percentage. Again, the only other players in NBA history to reach a similar level of elite effectiveness in all three categories (which, again, are the three most important for a star guard and especially a star point guard) are Magic Johnson from 1983-1991 (20.0/12.2/.518) and Oscar Robertson from 1962-1970 (29.1/10.3/.490). Those three (Magic, Oscar, K.J.) are in a league of their own when combining elite effectiveness in the most vital statistical categories for a star playmaker, and only Magic combined greatness in all three better than K.J. over either a three-four year run or virtually an entire decade.

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]You also are going to overlook his injuries it looks like.[/QUOTE]

Injuries are the knock on K.J., and that's understandable. However, you also have to understand the injuries. Some feel that in the history of the NBA, no one has penetrated the lane and attacked the basket like K.J., and he played in an extremely physical era. As Danny Ainge once said, in the 1990s, referees just stopped calling fouls, and K.J. paid the price. To quote a post of mine:

[B]As the '95-'96 ESPN NBA preview noted, when K.J. was hot, it seemed like the only way to stop him was to hurt him. Well, don't think that teams didn't realize that and didn't try to make him pay a price when he rocketed through lane and attacked the rim. In 2001, an [I]Arizona Republic[/I] sportswriter (Norm Frauenheim) recalled that opponents would sometimes pummel K.J. into the floor at old Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Phoenix so hard that it seemed as if the earth was shaking. [/B]

In today's NBA, I'd bet that K.J. would hold up much better. Besides, Tiny Archibald played in 876 of 1,148 potential regular season games over the 14-season span of his career (1971-1984), a 76.3% rate. K.J., meanwhile, played in 729 of 902 potential regular season games over the 11-season span of his career (1988-1998), an 80.8% rate (I'm not counting K.J.'s brief comeback in the spring of 2000 when he popped out of a two-year, official retirement to help the Suns after Jason Kidd broke his ankle). And K.J. played in 105 of 106 potential playoff games (99.1%).

[QUOTE=GMATCallahan]I disagree. First, the fourth tier is much too low for K.J. Guards like Moncrief, Lever, and Allen were fine players, but they were limited in the kind of impact that they could make and where they could lead a team. The third tier is acceptable, but I think that K.J. could fit in quite well in the second tier. If you look at him and Drexler, their value was really pretty similar, and K.J. elevated his teammates in ways that Bryant and Gervin could not. There's more to basketball than volume scoring and one-on-one play, and in fact, I might place Archibald in the second tier as well.

You talk about K.J.'s three-four years, but they represented one of the best three-four year runs in NBA history, by anyone. From 1989-1991, K.J. became the third player ever to average at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in each of three consecutive seasons (joining Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas), averaging 21.7 points, 11.3 assists, a .507 field goal percentage, an .854 free throw percentage, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.7 steals. From 1989-1992, K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, an .843 free throw percentage, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.6 steals. I challenge you to find how many guards in NBA history have ever put up numbers at that level over a three or four-year stretch, especially combining that degree of production in both points and assists with that stratum of shooting efficiency. I believe that the only guy who'll you find at that level in each of the "big three" categories (points, assists, and field goal percentage, the three most important for a star guard) is Magic Johnson, who from 1987-1990 averaged 22.1 points, 12.1 assists, a .502 field goal percentage, and an .876 free throw percentage (plus 6.8 rebounds and 1.7 steals). The only other player who'll be in that ballpark is Oscar Robertson.

What's true of three-four years is also true of nine. Over a nine-season run from 1989-1997, K.J. averaged 19.8 points, 10.0 assists, and a .497 field goal percentage. Again, the only other players in NBA history to reach a similar level of elite effectiveness in all three categories (which, again, are the three most important for a star guard and especially a star point guard) are Magic Johnson from 1983-1991 (20.0/12.2/.518) and Oscar Robertson from 1962-1970 (29.1/10.3/.490). Those three (Magic, Oscar, K.J.) are in a league of their own when combining elite effectiveness in the most vital statistical categories for a star playmaker, and only Magic combined greatness in all three better than K.J. over either a three-four year run or virtually an entire decade.[/QUOTE]

Also just to add on Oscar's part, it is easier to put up good stats when your teammates are not that good and you don't make playoffs.

KJ and Magic are the only 2 putting up those big numbers, while still having a playoff team all their prime. While Oscar, he failed to make the playoffs many times.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]But when he did get players around him, he still put numbers (though not as great), made All-NBA and All-Star teams, won All-Star MVP and helped Boston to a title.[/QUOTE]
And hwas out of his prime as well. Putting up 14/8 isn't really "good'. I don't know why you think it is.


And like I said, either way, 1 playoff in prime, is sad. It really is, and he didn't play well in that playoff series, and they lost as well.

To add on, it is easier to put up great stats when you are told to have the ball a lot because your teammates aren't as great. But whats the point of all the numbers when your team isn't going to the playoffs?


Lastly, if you missed the quote GMAT posted,

[I]"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."[/I]

That was from Archibald towards Kevin Johnson.









Anyways, just another to add against Archibald. He played in an era where the ABA was at his best. So the competetion in the NBA for Archibald wasn't as great either. Yet he still failed to make playoffs. Even with the competetion being a little washed down. This also has an overall impact on his numbers as well.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]Also just to add on Oscar's part, it is easier to put up good stats when your teammates are not that good and you don't make playoffs.

KJ and Magic are the only 2 putting up those big numbers, while still having a playoff team all their prime. While Oscar, he failed to make the playoffs many times.[/QUOTE]
Yeah Oscar missed the playoffs in his rookie season and I think his last two with the Royals. But look at KJ's teams they were always stacked.

Tom Chamber (All-Star X4)
Dan Majerle (All-Star X2)
Jeff Hornacek (All-Star)
Cedric Ceballos (All-Star)
Charles Barkley (Who)

Then guys like Eddie Johnson who were good for 18 a night.

Same with Magic as you know his squad.


Oscar only had Jerry Lucas with him from 63 to 69 and thats it.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Yeah Oscar missed the playoffs in his rookie season and I think his last two with the Royals. But look at KJ's teams they were always stacked.

Tom Chamber (All-Star X4)
Dan Majerle (All-Star X2)
Jeff Hornacek (All-Star)
Cedric Ceballos (All-Star)
Charles Barkley (Who)

Then guys like Eddie Johnson who were good for 18 a night.

Same with Magic as you know his squad.


Oscar only had Jerry Lucas with him from 63 to 69 and thats it.[/QUOTE]
You missed the point though.

I was talking mainly about Oscar Robertson's numbers. And said it was because his team wasn't stacked, he was able to put up good numbers. Its easier to put up good numbers with a bad team.

Lastly, I still think, with the numbers he put up, they should've gone at least to playoffs. I mean, it seems like, wow he's putting such great numbers, but his team isn't going to the playoffs? Gary Payton in 2000 had starcasts just as bad, yet he was able to take them to the playoffs.

Payton's best players with him were:

Ruben Patterson (2nd year)
Vin Baker (Put 12/6 year before)

Yet he still took them to the playoffs, in the mighty west too.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]You missed the point though.

I was talking mainly about Oscar Robertson's numbers. And said it was because his team wasn't stacked, he was able to put up good numbers. Its easier to put up good numbers with a bad team.

Lastly, I still think, with the numbers he put up, they should've gone at least to playoffs. I mean, it seems like, wow he's putting such great numbers, but his team isn't going to the playoffs? Gary Payton in 2000 had starcasts just as bad, yet he was able to take them to the playoffs.

Payton's best players with him were:

Ruben Patterson (2nd year)
Vin Baker (Put 12/6 year before)

Yet he still took them to the playoffs, in the mighty west too.[/QUOTE]
The two seasons Oscar didn't make it were in the late 1960's The Celtics were the Celtics, New York was starting to become a force and Wes Unseld and Pearl made Baltimore a contender. Then you had Phila with Hal Greer, Cunningham and Chet Walker so those a are the four squads (only four teams made it from each conferene back then).


Thats another thing, since only four squads made the playoffs back then (not 8 as it is now) it was even tougher to make the post-season. And if you weren't on stacked squads like Tiny and Oscar were, you had your work cut out for you.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]The two seasons Oscar didn't make it were in the late 1960's The Celtics were the Celtics, New York was starting to become a force and Wes Unseld and Pearl made Baltimore a contender. Then you had Phila with Hal Greer, Cunningham and Chet Walker so those a are the four squads (only four teams made it from each conferene back then).


Thats another thing, since only four squads made the playoffs back then (not 8 as it is now) it was even tougher to make the post-season. And if you weren't on stacked squads like Tiny and Oscar were, you had your work cut out for you.[/QUOTE]

First of all, I think he didn't make it the last 3 years in Cincinnati.

2nd, its not just the playoffs, their record also had fallen. He didn't finish above .500 any of the years.

And as for Tiny, he couldn't make it to the playoffs in the mid 70s. After the Boston, Philly, and Laker dynasties had fallen. So that excuse does not work for Tiny Archibald.

And especially since in his prime, ABA was at its strongest, so there was less competition overall anyways.

Tiny did play on some pretty terrible teams. Look at the best team he played for in his prime, the Kansas City-Omaha Kings. Their roster included:

- Jalen Rose's father Jimmy Walker
- Don Kojis in his last season
- current coaches in D'Antonio and Rick Adleman
- Scott Wedman

That was his best team, they made the playoffs. I'm pretty sure it's hard to have two hometown teams.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Tiny did play on some pretty terrible teams. Look at the best team he played for in his prime, the Kansas City-Omaha Kings. Their roster included:

- Jalen Rose's father Jimmy Walker
- Don Kojis in his last season
- current coaches in D'Antonio and Rick Adleman
- Scott Wedman

That was his best team, they made the playoffs. I'm pretty sure it's hard to have two hometown teams.[/QUOTE]
Yeah no doubt they weren't good. But once again, its still possible to take yoru team to the playoffs. Or at least post a good record. Jimmy Walker stayed with Tiny for a while, yet only this year they made playoffs.

And even on the 34/11, no playoffs.


But also, his stats are inflated too, since they had bad teams, he got the ball more.

Lastly, don't forget the ABA effect. ABA was loaded in his prime, so he is lucky there wasn't tougher competetion against him, thoug he would have a better team, but it ultimately would've hurt his stats and he wouldn't have gotten to the playoffs again.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]Yeah no doubt they weren't good. But once again, its still possible to take yoru team to the playoffs. Or at least post a good record. Jimmy Walker stayed with Tiny for a while, yet only this year they made playoffs.

And even on the 34/11, no playoffs.


But also, his stats are inflated too, since they had bad teams, he got the ball more.

Lastly, don't forget the ABA effect. ABA was loaded in his prime, so he is lucky there wasn't tougher competetion against him, thoug he would have a better team, but it ultimately would've hurt his stats and he wouldn't have gotten to the playoffs again.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I think the ABA would have helped Nate more then it would have hurt him. Imagine some of the players from the ABA being his teammate. Maybe an Artis Gilmore, or David Thompson or somebody.


Peoole credit Larry and Magic with the resurgence of the NBA, but the ABA coming into the NBA was as big of an impact as they were.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Yeah Oscar missed the playoffs in his rookie season and I think his last two with the Royals. But look at KJ's teams they were always stacked.

Tom Chamber (All-Star X4)
Dan Majerle (All-Star X2)
Jeff Hornacek (All-Star)
Cedric Ceballos (All-Star)
Charles Barkley (Who)

Then guys like Eddie Johnson who were good for 18 a night.

Same with Magic as you know his squad.


Oscar only had Jerry Lucas with him from 63 to 69 and thats it.[/QUOTE]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about Robertson (although he did have an All-Star power player in Wayne Embry through 1966 and a very solid power forward named Happy Hairston), but K.J. had a lot to do with some of those All-Star appearances by his teammates. Hornacek made his only All-Star Game playing next to K.J. in 1992, even though he later spent six-and-a-half seasons alongside John Stockton in Utah's backcourt. Dan Majerle never averaged as many as 11.0 points in his seven seasons after leaving K.J., immediately dropping from 15.6 with Phoenix in 1995 to 10.6 in Cleveland in 1996. Part of that decline can be explained by Majerle playing fewer minutes on a new team, but he was still just 30 years old and could have played more had his new coaching staff deemed him effective enough. Without K.J., though, that wasn't the case, even though Majerle had joined one of the better point guards of the day in Terrell Brandon (and later Tim Hardaway in Miami). Still, he couldn't come close to duplicating his success alongside K.J. in Phoenix.

As for Tom Chambers, he'd made one All-Star Game in seven seasons prior to joining K.J., but he then made the All-Star team three years in a row as soon as he started running with Johnson. Check out these K.J.-Chambers hook-ups:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2&page=212&sort=postusername&order=asc&daysprune=-1[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_jBWSGqGyw&mode=related&search=[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN4-bmxnBQI&mode=related&search=[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBSTQDwH8&mode=related&search=[/url]

And Eddie Johnson received his only NBA honor (1989 Sixth Man of the Year) playing next to K.J.

Let me also quote a recent post of mine on another board to reveal more about the K.J.-Chambers dynamic and how K.J. had made the Sixers' "Barkley haul" (Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) seem quite attractive at the time.

[B]In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999.

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/news/column_042299.html?nav=ArticleList[/url]

Playing with K.J. allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-season scoring average record two years in a row with 25.7 in 1989 and 27.2 in 1990, the latter mark remaining a franchise record. Playing with K.J. also allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-game scoring record with 60 points, just a month after scoring 56.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19900324.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/GSW19900218.html[/url]

Conversely, Shawn Kemp never averaged 20.0 points per game with Payton, a mark that he surely would have reached with K.J. Or look at the three players whom Phoenix dealt to Philadelphia in the Charles Barkley blockbuster of June 1992. On the surface, it seemed as if the Sixers were receiving quite a haul of talent, three starters off a 53-win team (Jeff Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) who had shot the following respective field goal percentages during the '92 season: .512, .523, .522. Three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field should have helped the Sixers. However, as Philadelphia soon found out, those players were not nearly as effective once removed from K.J., even though Hornacek was a fine guard either way. Indeed, in Philadelphia in '93, Hornacek, Perry, and Lang shot just .470, .468, and .425 from the field, respectively. Perhaps the Sixers should have listened to Clyde Drexler after Perry scored 27 points in Game Three of the 1992 Western Conference Semifinals, with K.J. posting 16 points and 16 assists after going for 35 points (including 18 in a row, 22 in the third quarter, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line) in Game Two and before recording 35 points and 14 assists in Game Four. Here was Drexler's quotation in the [B]Los Angeles Times[/B].

[I]Johnson and Hornacek Put Run, Fun in Suns; [Home Edition] Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 10, 1992. pg. 5

Kevin Johnson, who runs the Phoenix offense, had 16 points and 16 assists.

"We ran up and down the court, and I found (Tim) Perry open, and pretty soon it just opened up for everybody," Johnson said

... "I don't think we stopped Kevin (Johnson) because he was able to get the ball to Perry and those other guys. I believe he might as well have scored Perry's 27 points," Drexler said. [/I]

K.J. actually made Perry seem like an attractive commodity to Philadelphia. [/B]

I'll also quote Hornacek's letter to K.J. in 2001:

[B]I also want to thank you for helping to make my career what it was. I wasn't happy at first ... Cotton made you the point guard without even having to beat me out, but obviously he knew what he was doing! I learned quickly, as did everyone else who has had the privilege of playing along side of you, that my game would benefit from having you at point guard. You are one of few players who can elevate the play of those around you.[/B]

[url]http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnson_letters_hornacek.html?nav=ArticleList[/url]

It could go the other way around too. Imagine Nate getting no one and the rest getting stronger.

But the point I was making with the ABA were on his numbers. He wouldn't have led th league in scoring/assists with Erving in the league. He wouldn't have put as good numbers with, better teammates, not way better, but just better teammates. Or would top players come to his team, or will the rest of the league strengthen against him making it tougher...

Most likely, his team would get better (not way better), the rest of the league overall would get better, Tiny's numbers would fall, and his team would still likely miss playoffs since his team and the rest of the league got better.



[B]But anyways, one thing is certain, with ABA at their best in his prime, that definately is an argument against him since the competetion in the league against him wasn't as high. [/B]












Quick quote:

[B][I]put up his biggest stats during some weak NBA years (1972-76, when the ABA was stealing young talent from college and high school)[/I][/B]

-Bill Simmons on Tiny


Just saying, its not just me that thinks that

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Actually, I think the ABA would have helped Nate more then it would have hurt him. Imagine some of the players from the ABA being his teammate. Maybe an Artis Gilmore, or David Thompson or somebody.


Peoole credit Larry and Magic with the resurgence of the NBA, but the ABA coming into the NBA was as big of an impact as they were.[/QUOTE]

I don't know about that last statement. Drug scandals swamped the league in the late seventies (after the NBA-ABA merger of 1976), and the NBA had reached something of a nadir prior to the arrival of Magic and Bird in the fall of 1979.

[QUOTE=GMATCallahan]I don't know about that last statement. Drug scandals swamped the league in the late seventies (after the NBA-ABA merger of 1976), and the NBA had reached something of a nadir prior to the arrival of Magic and Bird in the fall of 1979.[/QUOTE]
LOL, I'm talking about talent wise not doping wise. You had Erving/Moses/Gervin who were 3 of the top players before Magic/Larry and after they entered the league.

The league went through some doping during the Magic/Larry years with Micheal Ray and Roy Tarply among others.

[QUOTE=Glove_20]First of all, I think he didn't make it the last 3 years in Cincinnati.[/QUOTE]

That's correct, and the Royals failed to post a winning record in any of Robertson's final four years in Cincinnati, winning fewer than 40 games three times.

I'm not saying that it was Oscar's fault, just stating the facts.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]LOL, I'm talking about talent wise not doping wise. You had Erving/Moses/Gervin who were 3 of the top players before Magic/Larry and after they entered the league.

The league went through some doping during the Magic/Larry years with Micheal Ray and Roy Tarply among others.[/QUOTE]

Okay, I was interpreting your use of the term "impact" in a broader sense. Certainly, the ABA introduced an incredible influx of talent into the NBA, but the larger resonance proved limited until Magic and Bird arrived.

[QUOTE]K.J. was one of the best point guards in history, and I think that most of the great point guards in history start to fall into place in the 20-range. Indeed, a great point guard is more valuable and important than a great player at most other positions aside from center, because he leads an offense, catalyzes baskets, and directly effects the performance of his teammates.[/QUOTE]

A great point being more valuable than a great player at most positions doesnt mean that when you compare the top players of all of them the points all belong over everyone but the centers. Too big a sample size from all of them. The best of the best from each position stand up to the best pointguards. And really only 2 points belong in the top 10-12 all time. All top 20 lists are are the best of the best. With 5 spots it wouldnt even take 5 players per position to put KJ below your highest estimates. There are about 11 people just as the 4 and 5 who were better than Kevin Johnson:

Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Ewing
Duncan
Malone
Barkley
Petitt

And there is only even one "Well maybe he accomplished more but you cant really prove hes better" on that list. All the rest are either no brainers or guys who played with KJ and were considered flat out better. KJ is getting a higher ranking in retrospect than he did in his prime. Kinda like Pistol Pete....though id take him over Pistol Pete....


Bird
Doc
Baylor
Hondo
Barry
Pippen
Jordan
West
Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Hayes

Plus you would have to put him over some of these guys.

Thats putting KJ on a level with the best of the best of the best all time. And that no matter how stretched or well written simply cant be done for a guy who in his prime was considered a peer with Tim Hardaway,, Chris Mullin, and so on who wouldnt even crack top 50. Speaking of which...

KJ wasnt voted top 50 all time in 1996. Im sure you agree nothing after 96 made his legacy. Even with all these coaches and players talking him up that you post(you dedicate yourself enough damn near every great player has similar quotes on him). Got a list of legends, long long time media members who covered 30+ years, coaches, and so on voting and KJ did not crack top 50. Yet 12 years later having done nothing to add to his legacy he jumps from below 50 to arguably #21? He might be underrated...but hes not that underrated.

This is strictly a fan made thing by his supporters to put him as highly as possible. It isnt and wouldnt be supported by any non biased group of fans(even thosel ike me who remember and loved KJs game). It wouldnt be supported by coaches. Not by players. No group of people could you poll and get KJ nearly this high and id bet anything on it.

Only his own fans.

[QUOTE]Now, I'm not saying that K.J. should necessarily rank that high, but once you reach the twenties, the discussion becomes extremely ambiguous and invites varying possibilities. That's all that I'm saying. [/QUOTE]

Well yea I mentioned that. The non elites is a long long list that gives fans of borderline elites a lot of ammo to put guys higher than they deserve due to the flaws of the people on that level. That doesnt mean its right to do it. Or thats its accurate. It would take too much conflicting logic player to player to put him over as many legends as one would need to.

[QUOTE]As for the statistical combinations, what separates K.J. in many of those cases is also field goal percentage. He was not just extremely prolific but also extremely efficient (and steals also separates him at one point). Aside from Magic Johnson, no one combined points, assists, and field goal percentage (the three most important statistical catgeories for a star point guard) better than K.J. did. And the point about points and assists is that K.J. is pretty close to the top of the mountain in NBA history in terms of combining them. In many ways, he epitomized the 20-10 point guard.[/QUOTE]

Considering the fact that a few non 20/10 points are still considered btter(and with good reason) that isnt that major. Its impressive. But im pressive in the way Steve Francis being on a list with Magic, Oscar, and Grant Hill as the only 15/5/5 players over their first 3 years players. Or arenas being the only player with 2000 points and 200 threes and 500FTs in a season(that not exactly it but he has one of those records similar to it). Those stat minimum records will bring up some odd players if you look across the board.

[QUOTE]I don't think that being an MVP necessarily means everything, especially since the award is only pertinent in the context of one's era, and not all eras are created equal. Did Bob McAdoo, Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, or even Steve Nash lead their respective teams closer to a championship or to more overall success than K.J.?[/QUOTE]

Cmon now. Did KJ himself lead a team closer to a title than Ray Allen, Rasheed Wallace, or Paul Pierce who all went to conference finals? Paul Westphal who went to the finals and made more than one all nba first team? Gus Williams who won a title? Plenty of guys not on KJs level all time managed to win on his level or close to it. And plenty of guys above KJs level didnt win beyond what he was able to. Doesnt make him their equal anymore than it makes Gus Williams KJs equal. Take 20-30 teams over 60 years(I know there were not hat many team for the whole 60) a lot of guys who dont deserve high rank will win as much or more than guys who do. Sideeffect of being a team sport.

[QUOTE]Was their level of play necessarily higher? McAdoo later won a couple championships, but only as a role player off the bench on the eighties Lakers, not as a star. [/QUOTE]

Bob Mcadoo was for a time considered the equal of Kareem. Kevin Johnson at his peak was ranked as the equal of Tim Hardaway. I think we are overrating the level KJ reached when we question if MVPs hit a higher level of play.

[QUOTE]Likewise, not everyone who "led" a team to a title was superior to K.J. Was Chauncey Billups better? Who was really the leader on the '79 Sonics?[/QUOTE]

Billups was who I meant when I mentioned exceptions. But there would need to be a hell of a lot more than there are. Its basically Billups, Gus Williams or Dennis Johnson, and 2-3 guys before 1956. Not nearly enough.

[QUOTE]And take a legend such as Bob Cousy, who shot .375 from the field for his career and never reached .400 in a single season. Yes, he won six championships with Bill Russell, but Russell won five more championships after Cousy retired. Cousy revolutionzed the game, but frankly, the record indicates that he was not indispensable in the least. He never led a team to elite status before Russell arrived, and Russell won nearly as many championships without Cousy as he won with him. [/QUOTE]

Ive been saying the same thing for years. glove has argued with me over that for at least a few months whenever it comes up just because id take Steve Nash, Payton, Kidd, Isiah, and most modern points who proved themselves over him. KJ included. I just dont trust the skill set of a guy who predates the modern jumper. Not in a pointguard.

[QUOTE]As for Scottie Pippen, he'd probably make my top twenty-five. He was arguably the greatest all-around small forward in history (taking into account both sides of the ball).[/QUOTE]

Hes also my second favorite player ever(Bulls fan since 83). But I cant let my bias blind me to reality. I refuse to be one of the fans propping up my favorite more than they justify just because I feel they are underrated. More often than not a non fan of th guy has a more accurate rating than a hardcore fan. We tend to overrate our guys more than non fans underrate them. Need the disconnect to rank it fairly. I think youre a reasonable guy who probably knows the game but really....nothing but bias could make one think Kevin Johnson is that high. There is just no other way.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]A great point being more valuable than a great player at most positions doesnt mean that when you compare the top players of all of them the points all belong over everyone but the centers. Too big a sample size from all of them. The best of the best from each position stand up to the best pointguards. And really only 2 points belong in the top 10-12 all time. All top 20 lists are are the best of the best. With 5 spots it wouldnt even take 5 players per position to put KJ below your highest estimates. There are about 11 people just as the 4 and 5 who were better than Kevin Johnson:

Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Ewing
Duncan
Malone
Barkley
Petitt

And there is only even one "Well maybe he accomplished more but you cant really prove hes better" on that list. All the rest are either no brainers or guys who played with KJ and were considered flat out better. KJ is getting a higher ranking in retrospect than he did in his prime. Kinda like Pistol Pete....though id take him over Pistol Pete....


Bird
Doc
Baylor
Hondo
Barry
Pippen
Jordan
West
Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Hayes

Plus you would have to put him over some of these guys.

Thats putting KJ on a level with the best of the best of the best all time. And that no matter how stretched or well written simply cant be done for a guy who in his prime was considered a peer with Tim Hardaway,, Chris Mullin, and so on who wouldnt even crack top 50. Speaking of which...

KJ wasnt voted top 50 all time in 1996. Im sure you agree nothing after 96 made his legacy. Even with all these coaches and players talking him up that you post(you dedicate yourself enough damn near every great player has similar quotes on him). Got a list of legends, long long time media members who covered 30+ years, coaches, and so on voting and KJ did not crack top 50. Yet 12 years later having done nothing to add to his legacy he jumps from below 50 to arguably #21? He might be underrated...but hes not that underrated.

This is strictly a fan made thing by his supporters to put him as highly as possible. It isnt and wouldnt be supported by any non biased group of fans(even thosel ike me who remember and loved KJs game). It wouldnt be supported by coaches. Not by players. No group of people could you poll and get KJ nearly this high and id bet anything on it.

Only his own fans.


Well yea I mentioned that. The non elites is a long long list that gives fans of borderline elites a lot of ammo to put guys higher than they deserve due to the flaws of the people on that level. That doesnt mean its right to do it. Or thats its accurate. It would take too much conflicting logic player to player to put him over as many legends as one would need to.


Considering the fact that a few non 20/10 points are still considered btter(and with good reason) that isnt that major. Its impressive. But im pressive in the way Steve Francis being on a list with Magic, Oscar, and Grant Hill as the only 15/5/5 players over their first 3 years players. Or arenas being the only player with 2000 points and 200 threes and 500FTs in a season(that not exactly it but he has one of those records similar to it). Those stat minimum records will bring up some odd players if you look across the board.


Cmon now. Did KJ himself lead a team closer to a title than Ray Allen, Rasheed Wallace, or Paul Pierce who all went to conference finals? Paul Westphal who went to the finals and made more than one all nba first team? Gus Williams who won a title? Plenty of guys not on KJs level all time managed to win on his level or close to it. And plenty of guys above KJs level didnt win beyond what he was able to. Doesnt make him their equal anymore than it makes Gus Williams KJs equal. Take 20-30 teams over 60 years(I know there were not hat many team for the whole 60) a lot of guys who dont deserve high rank will win as much or more than guys who do. Sideeffect of being a team sport.


Bob Mcadoo was for a time considered the equal of Kareem. Kevin Johnson at his peak was ranked as the equal of Tim Hardaway. I think we are overrating the level KJ reached when we question if MVPs hit a higher level of play.


Billups was who I meant when I mentioned exceptions. But there would need to be a hell of a lot more than there are. Its basically Billups, Gus Williams or Dennis Johnson, and 2-3 guys before 1956. Not nearly enough.


Ive been saying the same thing for years. glove has argued with me over that for at least a few months whenever it comes up just because id take Steve Nash, Payton, Kidd, Isiah, and most modern points who proved themselves over him. KJ included. I just dont trust the skill set of a guy who predates the modern jumper. Not in a pointguard.


Hes also my second favorite player ever(Bulls fan since 83). But I cant let my bias blind me to reality. I refuse to be one of the fans propping up my favorite more than they justify just because I feel they are underrated. More often than not a non fan of th guy has a more accurate rating than a hardcore fan. We tend to overrate our guys more than non fans underrate them. Need the disconnect to rank it fairly. I think youre a reasonable guy who probably knows the game but really....nothing but bias could make one think Kevin Johnson is that high. There is just no other way.[/QUOTE]
Another thing about Kev, in his prime he probally was never a 10 player of his era (late 80's to early 90's)

[B]He sure wasn't a top 5 player fighting against these guys:[/B]

Jordan
Magic
Dream
Chuck
Glide
Robinson
Pat Ew
Stockton
Malone
Zeke Thomas
'Nique

Then you have players maybe closer to his level (above or below-you decide)


Worthy
McHale
Timmy Hardaway
Mullin
Joe D
Terry Porter
Pippen
Mitch Richmond
Kemp
Alvin Robertson (yes him)
Rodman


So I think it's very hard to put Kevin Johnson as a top 21 player ever, when he sometimes wasn't even a top 10 player. This is not any hate towared KJ as he was one of my faves.

By the number(eff) this was the top 20 in his best overall season. Im not saying it proves anything but its a little interesting to see.

1 Michael Jordan CHI 34.57 1989-90
2 Hakeem Olajuwon HOU 32.38 1989-90
3 Patrick Ewing NYK 32.34 1989-90
4 Karl Malone UTA 31.88 1989-90
5 Charles Barkley PHI 31.67 1989-90
6 David Robinson SAS 30.56 1989-90
7 Magic Johnson LAL 30.49 1989-90
8 Larry Bird BOS 29.27 1989-90
9 John Stockton UTA 27.10 1989-90
10 Kevin Johnson PHO 26.34 1989-90
11 Chris Mullin GSW 25.82 1989-90
12 Clyde Drexler POR 25.52 1989-90
13 Lafayette Lever DEN 24.53 1989-90
14 Tom Chambers PHO 24.47 1989-90
15 Kevin Mchale BOS 24.21 1989-90
16 Dominique Wilkins ATL 23.58 1989-90
17 Roy Tarpley DAL 22.71 1989-90
18 Mark Price CLE 22.42 1989-90
19 James Worthy LAL 22.29 1989-90
20 Reggie Miller IND 22.18 1989-90


In his best season going just by numbers:

1 Michael Jordan CHI 36.99 1988-89
2 Magic Johnson LAL 33.31 1988-89
3 Charles Barkley PHI 32.68 1988-89
4 Hakeem Olajuwon HOU 31.02 1988-89
5 Karl Malone UTA 29.53 1988-89
6 Clyde Drexler POR 28.87 1988-89
7 Lafayette Lever DEN 27.48 1988-89
8 Patrick Ewing NYK 27.46 1988-89
9 John Stockton UTA 27.40 1988-89
10 Kevin Johnson PHO 27.06 1988-89
11 Robert Parish BOS 26.10 1988-89
12 Chris Mullin GSW 26.01 1988-89
13 Tom Chambers PHO 24.11 1988-89
14 Moses Malone ATL 23.84 1988-89
15 Kevin Mchale BOS 23.68 1988-89
16 Dominique Wilkins ATL 22.84 1988-89
17 Larry Nance CLE 22.66 1988-89
18 Terry Porter POR 22.42 1988-89
19 Brad Daugherty CLE 22.37 1988-89
20 Mark Price CLE 22.33 1988-89



He ended up 10th right behind Stockton both years.

Why is everybody stuck on KJ being 21st?

I said 30-40 from the beggining, you could make a case for the 20s, but in the end, the injuries are going to push him back in the 30s.

I don't see how Stockton was better than KJ in his prime, or even Clyde.




And KBlaze, I never said I'd take Cousy over Nash at his peak either. I just saying Nash was "way" better than Cousy ever was off, and thats what I was arguing. And I still stand by that statement.

All players shot low %s back then, so the % isn't as bad as it really is. Not only that, he was Top 3 in the league in scoring twice, not 100% sure on that, but I am pretty sure, even finished 2nd in the league in scoring as well.

And passing/playmaking, I don't think I neeed to explain anymore on that. He was just as good as Magic and Stockton.



So based on all that, there is no way you can say Nash is WAY better than Cousy ever was. Cousy also won a MVP, and would've probably had 2 if the award existed before.