I've been accused of lying but

[QUOTE=PejaTheSerbSnip;14821407]

- LeBron had a higher TS%
- LeBron had far higher assist and rebounding rates
- Jordan didn’t come close to doubling his scoring output, although does have the scoring advantage
- Their exact offensive ratings are still anyones guess


[/quote]


Ewing had higher rebounding rates... So did Karl Malone..

It means nothing and isn't a valid response to Lebron's vastly inferior scoring and clutch ability.

Regarding the assists, we know that Lebron's teams had massive assist deficits in the Finals, so who cares about personal APG - it means literally nothing when comparing 2 players, unless one of the players isn't a good passer.. Super-high APG often means Luka-style ball-domination and inferior brand of ball.. It's completely irrelevant to comparing 2 players.

But if you want to compare APG, we know that MJ had higher APG for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14') before Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone.. Jordan was a great passer and peaked as a passer higher than Lebron did (91' Finals..... or the pre-Curry era in the playoffs where MJ averaged more APG.... or 30/9/11 at PG is better than anything Lebron did in the RS)



[QUOTE=PejaTheSerbSnip;14821336]

so his 4th q turnover stats amount to being a rounding error in the grand scheme of things.


[/quote]


It's a rounding error that Jordan averaged 0.35 turnovers in the 4th compared to 1.03 for Lebron?

So Lebron averaged 3 times as many turnovers, but that's a rounding error?

You're drowning.

Lebron's vastly higher turnovers gives him lower ORTG when we consider his far lower scoring production with only a small TS edge - this dynamic of high turnovers and lower scoring without much edge in TS is the story of Lebron's career compared to Jordan.. You're trying to defy this and it's absurd. .



[QUOTE=PejaTheSerbSnip;14821336]

I’d estimate Jordan’s offensive rating to be anywhere from 111-114, while LeBron’s is somewhere from 113-115.


[/QUOTE]


That would be contrary to their entire regular season and playoff careers - Jordan's ORTG was always higher and around 118 because he scored MUCh more with similar true shooting and far lower turnovers.. I'm informing you of the statistical record here - there's no refuting this.

So you're just on Lebron Delusion planet right now...

You probably thought that you were winning the debate.. Now you're drowning by trying to argue that a STAPLE for jordan over lebron (ortg) infact goes in Lebron's favor in the 4th quarter (despite the massive turnover gap and massive scoring deficit with similar TS).. You're done

3ball is very insightful :pimp:

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14821412]I don't think anyone actually expects it once they dive a little deeper. But the Lebron trolling either prevents them from wanting to or being able to. Either way...meh.[/QUOTE]


You guys are just making something up and then arguing against it because you can't argue against the actual point being made

No one said that 3rd options should average 25

But they can average 18-22 [U]and have star roles[/U] - that's the key - Manu, Allen, Worthy, Jamison - these guys had star roles at 3rd option, while Lebron's 3rd options are reduced to spot-up role, so their ability to step up has been taken away and his teams never reach anywhere NEAR their expectation.. .3 franchise guys on 1 team = "not 6, not 7" expectation but Lebron went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do.. and he was a miracle away from 1/4.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14821425]You guys are just making something up and then arguing against it because you can't argue against the actual point being made

No one said that 3rd options should average 25

But they can average 18-22 [U]and have star roles[/U] - that's the key - Manu, Allen, Worthy, [B]Jamison - these guys had star roles at 3rd option[/B], while Lebron's 3rd options are reduced to spot-up role, so their ability to step up has been taken away and his teams never reach anywhere NEAR their expectation.. .3 franchise guys on 1 team = "not 6, not 7" expectation but Lebron went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do.. and he was a miracle away from 1/4.[/QUOTE]

Settle down :lol

Jamison was no star.

Also, please give me a playoff series where any of those guys you listed scored 20 ppg while being the 3rd leading scorer on the team. I'm sure Worthy did it maybe once while Magic and Kareem scored 20 themselves. But I'd like to see one for Manu, Allen, or Jamison. Just ONE.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14821416]Ewing had higher rebounding rates... So did Karl Malone..
[/QUOTE]

And so did LeBron James.

[QUOTE]
It means nothing and isn't a valid response to Lebron's vastly inferior scoring and clutch ability.
[/QUOTE]

What it

[QUOTE]
Regarding the assists, we know that Lebron's teams had massive assist deficits in the Finals, so who cares about personal APG -
[/QUOTE]

The Bulls were out-assisted in both finals against the Jazz.

LeBron’s teams were out-assisted in 4 out of 10 finals, and only badly so when they were facing a massive talent deficit, which the Bulls never faced…so yet again this is not a like-for-like comparison. The fact of the matter is that Jordan [i]did[/i] cede some playmaking duties in ‘98.


[QUOTE]
it means literally nothing when comparing 2 players, unless one of the players isn't a good passer.. Super-high APG often means Luka-style ball-domination and inferior brand of ball.. It's completely irrelevant to comparing 2 players.

But if you want to compare APG, we know that MJ had higher APG for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14')
before Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone..
[/QUOTE]

Already addressed in full, and this is a lie.

Assist rates didn’t skyrocket in 2015…LeBron’s per-100’s did. That’s why omitted them.

Team-wide APG’s increased significantly in ‘19, NOT before then, and were considerably higher from ‘85-‘93 than they were from ‘06-‘14.

See here:

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html[/url]

The vast majority of the crap you spew, blessedly, is only a one-minute fact-check away from being debunked.


[QUOTE]
Jordan was a great passer and peaked as a passer higher than Lebron did (91' Finals..... or the pre-Curry era in the playoffs where MJ averaged more APG.... or 30/9/11 at PG is better than anything Lebron did in the RS)
[/QUOTE]

It is absolutely one of the GOAT finals series.




[QUOTE]
It's a rounding error that Jordan averaged 0.35 turnovers in the 4th compared to 1.03 for Lebron?

So Lebron averaged 3 times as many turnovers, but that's a rounding error?

You're drowning.
[/QUOTE]

You need to book an appointment with a neurologist.

No, dummy, [i]that’s[/i] not the rounding error. :roll:

The rounding error is the extent to which the turnover differential contributes to their respective 4th quarter offensive ratings.

Jordan averaged a 112ortg in ‘97 and ‘98, and only about 1.9 tpg overall. His 4 turnovers across those 11 fourth quarters is 0.364, which would translate to 1.5 across 4 quarters.

LeBron, conversely, does not seek a huge turnover [i]spike[/i] in 4th quarters.

All of which is to say that their respective offensive ratings are very much up for debate.

[QUOTE]
Lebron's vastly higher turnovers gives him lower ORTG when we consider his far lower scoring production with only a small TS edge -
[/QUOTE]

Prove it. I will concede any mistakes I make. To the naked eye it does not appear as if Jordan has a higher offensive rating in fourth quarters in ‘97 and ‘98 than LeBron does in all finals 4th quarters…despite James facing a set of opponents that had, on average, a lower defensive rating, all the while contending with a talent deficit most of the time (which is again starkly opposed to Jordan).


[QUOTE]
this dynamic of high turnovers and lower scoring without much edge in TS is the story of Lebron's career compared to Jordan.. You're trying to defy this and it's absurd. .
[/QUOTE]

Covered many, many times over. Prove it.




[QUOTE]
That would be contrary to their entire regular season and playoff careers - Jordan's ORTG was always higher and around 118
[/QUOTE]


This isn’t even a good red herring. Are you losing steam already? So early?

Firstly, LeBron’s career play-off ortg is 117. Jordan’s is 118.

Secondly, this is completely irrelevant to their respective finals ratings. Jordan’s [i]finals offensive rating[/i] was 112 combined, in ‘97 and ‘98.

Total irrelevancies.

[QUOTE]
because he scored MUCh more with similar true shooting and far lower turnovers.. I'm informing you of the statistical record here - there's no refuting this.
[/QUOTE]

Refused effortlessly, I’m sorry to say.


[QUOTE]
You probably thought that you were winning the debate.. Now you're drowning by trying to argue that a STAPLE for jordan over lebron (ortg)
[/QUOTE]

Louder, for those in the back:

LeBron’s career playoff ortg is 117 (drtg is 103).

Jordan’s career playoff ortg is 118 (drtg is 104).

In the span of time between their first and last finals appearance:

Jordan: 118 ortg

LeBron: 117 ortg


Over the course of their primes:

Jordan, ‘88-‘93: 120 ortg

LeBron, ‘09-‘20: 119 ortg


It isn’t difficult to gerrymander comparisons whichever way a bad-faith artist wants the conversation to go.

Magic and the showtime Lakers will never be a good comparison to Lebron because they had something Lebron never did... long term championship roster continuity.

Outside of Miami he never had the organizational structure Jordan had with PJax and the bulls.

Pleased to see these ignored. Will take it as an admission of defeat. For posterity:

[QUOTE=PejaTheSerbSnip;14821393]Another clever tactic: just omit #2 options when we know Pippen outplayed Worthy, LOL:

Pippen - 21/9/7/2/1 on 53% TS, at worst the third best player in the series

Worthy - 19/3/2 on 50% TS, [i]missed a game[/i]

Yeah, no vested interest in starting from the third options. :roll: :roll:

Again, I’ll ask the time-honoured question: where, specifically, have I erred?

Moving on, you failed to acknowledge Grant and Paxson’s great play in those finals:

Grant - 15/8/2/2 on 65% TS
Paxson - 14/2/3 on 67% TS

Compares pretty nicely with Divac and Perkins:

Divac - 19/9/2/2 on 61% TS
Perkins - 17/8/1 on 51% TS

…not seeing this big talent deficit. At all.



These are just labels that you choose to reify. They carry no inherent value. How did all of these players actually play in the series’ that are under examination? How do they fit with their #1’s? All of these are more germane to the question of who had the better supporting cast.




Scott in the ‘91 finals: 5/2/2 on 40% TS in 35 mpg.



This was Campbell’s rookie year, and he notched 7 minutes a contest in the regular season. He only suited up in 3 of the 5 games, blossomed some three years later and was never the defensive presence or glue guy that Grant was.

We might as well say a 40 year old Parish was unfair help for Jordan in ‘97. After all, his minutes per game was [i]higher[/i] than rookie Campbell’s.

Rookie Pippen came off the bench for the Bulls too, must’ve been due to them having an embarrassment of riches :roll:

This is one of your more embarrassing comparisons. Please keep going.



All addressed. How did all of these players perform? Why was Pippen omitted?



The ‘93 Suns were likely the closest, and had a better [i]offensive[/i] supporting cast. That’s as far as I’ll go. At very worst, Jordan had a better supporting cast in 4 or 5 of his 6 finals, and more than enough to win in all 6 given his GOAThood.



Yet you never make this same defence of Harper, who went from 22 ppg on a crappy team to 7-8 on a good one, just as Ainge saw a large decrease in volume when hopping from a 23 win perennially losing Kings team to a finals contender?

Why is that? I wonder. :roll:

Ainge was, at that point, a decent 6th man. He is not a star on another team.



They had a good and balanced roster. Regardless, the Bulls had a sizeable edge in the #2 and #3 slots. Some of these players (like Williams) made their last all-star games years before ‘92, while Duckworth was essentially an all-star in name only, who regressed after ‘91 and averaged 11 points on 10 shots a game.

Try again.



What I said was that they likely had the more potent offensive supporting cast. That’s the best steelman I can muster up.




‘fraid not.


Kemp-Schrempf-Hawkins-Perkins-McMillan-Askew

and

Pippen-Rodman-Kukoc-Harper-Kerr-Longley

Are comparable rotations. More than enough for the GOAT to get by with.




TIL it was unclear that LeBron faced a chasmal talent deficit in, among others:

- 2007
- 2014 (oldest, worst rebounding team in the league).
- 2015 (both Love and Irving were out).
- 2017 (as clear a finals defensive mismatch as you’ll get).
- 2018 (ditto, and now with a historic offensive gap to boot).[/QUOTE]


/


[QUOTE=PejaTheSerbSnip;14821400]Very predictably, you flew past my point: any player comes off worse when you pit a weakness of theirs with another players strength.

Whether it’s LeBron’s off-ball ability being compared to Jordan’s, or Jordan’s rebounding being compared to Rodman’s, or Kobe’s long-range shooting compared to Curry’s…it’s an incredibly insidious way of framing comparisons. That you can cherry-pick a specific time Jordan did a subset of a thing better than Rodman (Per 100 rebounding #’s in the ‘97 playoffs: Rodman 16.8, Jordan 10.5) doesn’t obscure this.

Keep trying.



And Pippen outpaced Jordan 20 out of 24 times in the non-scoring statistical categories during their 6 finals together.

There is more to basketball than shooting.



LeBron led the Cavs in all 5 major statistical categories in the ‘16 finals, against a 73 win team.



While being pivotal to their success in ‘96, utterly putting the clamps on Mourning in ‘97 (something very heavily attested to, and something you’ve consistently ignored), and frustrating Malone across two finals series.

To be a broken record: more to basketball than scoring. We will explore this further.

Additionally, you do not apply this same standard of ****-retentive nitpickyness to Jordan’s opponents, and never will.

You flatly listed a bunch of Pistons players in ‘91, when they played poorly.

You listed Scott in the ‘91 finals, who put up 5 points on 30% shooting in 35 minutes per game.

Or how about Hornacek?

12 ppg on 51% TS in the ‘97 finals, 11 ppg on 50% TS in the ‘98 finals.

Did the Jazz push the series close in-spite of the poor play of their third best player?

How about Stockton, who averaged 10 points a game in the ‘98 finals.

Literally no one on the Jazz cleared 11 points a game in the ‘98 finals.

Uniform standards to be applied? No way, no how.[/QUOTE]