How do you go about ranking Kobe Bryant?

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14870944]Well how else are you supposed to evaluate series? If Lebron played like shit in 3-4 games out of a series, is it really considered that great? It's okay, ATGs have bad games in wins all the time, doesn't mean that Lebron's 2013 ring is worth any less, all the trolling aside.

Idk how a Kobe hater such as yourself would ever make an issue out of "nitpicking" when that's all you guys have been doing since 2010... y'all act like G7 is how Kobe played that entire series when he had been great up to that point. You could argue he was even better through 6 games of that 2010 series than the year before vs. Orlando.

And if I wanted to nitpick further I'd give you shit for saying that Bran's 2015 and 2016 series were great by his standards as well.. he clearly had a bunch of bad games in those series. 2016 was a lot like 2013 in that regard because his poor play is really what put them in a hole to begin with, but we don't discredit that ring for it. Idk what y'all need to do that shit with all of Kobe's rings consistently.[/QUOTE]

Kobe played well in game 7 vs boston. It was a super tight and grimy low scoring game. Kobe brought it big on the boards and on defense. Was a beyond the boxscore game for sure.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14870952]Kobes shot selection puts him outside the top ten for me. He probably took more bad shots then anyone I've ever seen, at least in terms of total volume. It was frequently hard to watch.

I remember on game against a weak wizards team koby went off in the first half and.the Lakers had a big lead at the half. I the second half the wizards doubled Kobe a lot but he kept shooting and of course missing instead of passing, allowing the wizards to come back and win..

After the game nick young was quoted as saying they knew Kobe wasn't going to pass so they could double him aggressively.

It was vintage Kobe.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what happened in game 7 vs Boston, luckily the other guys were able to bail him out.

I remember Denver trying a similar strategy in game 7 of 2012, but Kobe was finally smart about it and passed the ball a bit more

[QUOTE=tontoz;14870952]Kobes shot selection puts him outside the top ten for me. He probably took more bad shots then anyone I've ever seen, at least in terms of total volume. It was frequently hard to watch.

I remember on game against a weak wizards team kobe went off in the first half and the Lakers had a big lead. In the second half the wizards doubled Kobe a lot but he kept shooting and of course missing instead of passing, allowing the wizards to come back and win.

After the game nick young was quoted as saying they knew Kobe wasn't going to pass so they could double him aggressively.

It was vintage Kobe.[/QUOTE]

If you haven’t seen the thinking basketball on Kobe it’s pretty good. But he breaks down statistics that shows his shot selection wasn’t as detrimental as it might appear on the surface. there are certain games where he shot them out of the game for sure but overall it wasn’t a huge as negative as it might seem

[QUOTE=rmt;14870936]It's just recency bias - Kawhi over Kobe is IMO sheer lunacy though.[/QUOTE]

Do you ever invoke an argument into your statement?


Why cant Kawhi be ranked above Kobe?

Its best to not even entertain the nitpicking goat (ImKobe)

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14870953]Kobe played well in game 7 vs boston. It was a super tight and grimy low scoring game. Kobe brought it big on the boards and on defense. Was a beyond the boxscore game for sure.[/QUOTE]

The boxscore tells you it was a tight, grimy low scoring game and that Kobe was on the boards, dumbass.


Yeah he brought it on defense by sagging 5 ft off Rondo every possession to save energy for his shotmaking on offense.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14870944]You could argue he was even better through 6 games of that 2010 series than the year before vs. Orlando[/QUOTE]

Thats huge that before he shot 6/24 he might have been better than when he shot 43% the previous year.

[QUOTE=rmt;14870639]Kawhi - I'll give him his TOR ring and outstanding defense, but IMO he's too injury-prone and doesn't play enough to be in front of Kobe (or many people who put in the work night after night, year after year - it's like the regular season doesn't exist for him - only the playoffs - that's like cheating just preparing/playing for playoffs).

5 rings is plenty to separate him from Barkley.

No comment on West as I didn't watch him play.[/QUOTE]


You can look at rings last.

They have absolutely no value if you just go by them without first evaluating if the play to acquire those rings was higher and the reason for why that player has rings and the other does not.


Youre still too warped in the ringz universe.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14870826]He's arguably the greatest player to ever to step foot onto a basketball court after Jordan. There's really only a small handful of guys who have a case over him.

Stats exist purely for reference. This obsession with "efficiency" has been nothing but a detriment to basketball analysis. If you're seriously debating as to whether or not Kobe is top 10 or god forbid top 20, just log off and delete your username.[/QUOTE]

No argument, as expected.


Yeah, I bet coaches dont care about their players being efficient either, right?

Makes no difference to them between deciding to start Player A or Player B.


:oldlol::facepalm


Stick to the OTC griffith

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14870980]The boxscore tells you it was a tight, grimy low scoring game and that Kobe was on the boards, dumbass.


Yeah he brought it on defense by sagging 5 ft off Rondo every possession to save energy for his shotmaking on offense.[/QUOTE]

he made the adjustment to sag off of rondo to dare him to shoot because that was by far the weakest part of his game and it allowed him to cover a lot more space for help defense, and it worked.

you are talking to someone who watched the full game live, you aren’t gonna pass any bullshit off to me

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14870955]If you haven’t seen the thinking basketball on Kobe it’s pretty good. But he breaks down statistics that shows his shot selection wasn’t as detrimental as it might appear on the surface. there are certain games where he shot them out of the game for sure but overall it wasn’t a huge as negative as it might seem[/QUOTE]


In the finals the Pistons defensive game plan was centered around Kobe's selfishness. They put Wallace on Shaq without help knowing Ben couldn't guard him. They bet that Kobe wouldn't be willing to give the ball up enough to make them pay for it.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14871000]In the finals the Pistons defensive game plan was centered around Kobe's selfishness. They put Wallace on Shaq without help knowing Ben couldn't guard him. They bet that Kobe wouldn't be willing to give the ball up enough to make them pay for it.[/QUOTE]

If you judge everybody by their worst series everybody would be considered a scrub except for Mike Jordan and Bill Russell.

[QUOTE=tpols;14871001]If you judge everybody by their worst series everybody would be considered a scrub except for Mike Jordan and Bill Russell.[/QUOTE]


It wasn't an issue of having a bad series. It was the fact that the opponents game plan was centered around his selfishness. And it worked.

The Pistons didn't just randomly decide to play that way. They did it based on Kobes history.

It isn't a case of someone just going through a shooting slump or facing a bad matchup. It was a case of Kobe being extremely selfish.

The Lakers ORTGs post Shaq were

2006 - 8th offensive rank, 9th in team assists
2007 - 7th offensive rank, 6th in team assists
2008 - 3rd offensive rank, 4th in team assists (pre-Pau)
2009 - 3rd offensive rank, 2nd in team assists
2010 - 11th offensive rank, 15th in team assists


For somebody who didn't pass the ball, Kobe sure was the headliner for top assist teams and he led 5 championships in dimes.

Kobe probably has the most assists in Lakers history outside Magic Johnson.

A lot of you guys just don't live in reality.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14871003]It wasn't an issue of having a bad series. It was the fact that the opponents game plan was centered around his selfishness. And it worked.

The Pistons didn't just randomly decide to play that way. They did it based on Kobes history.

It isn't a case of someone just going through a shooting slump or facing a bad matchup. It was a case of Kobe being extremely selfish.[/QUOTE]

And yet we've seen just as bad from Lebron in 2011 where he refused to shoot and cratered his team in a huge upset loss (factually by the odds and context). Yet a lot of people still have him top 5 GOAT.

Kobe would've been by far the best player in your franchises history, but you're biased.

You kind of remind me of Xiao who said he would take Gobert over Kobe or Kidd.

It's just... purely irrational and not looking at the whole scope of things.

[QUOTE=tpols;14871006]The Lakers ORTGs post Shaq were

2006 - 8th offensive rank, 9th in team assists
2007 - 7th offensive rank, 6th in team assists
2008 - 3rd offensive rank, 4th in team assists (pre-Pau)
2009 - 3rd offensive rank, 2nd in team assists
2010 - 11th offensive rank, 15th in team assists


For somebody who didn't pass the ball, Kobe sure was the headliner for top assist teams and he led 5 championships in dimes.

Kobe probably has the most assists in Lakers history outside Magic Johnson.

A lot of you guys just don't live in reality.[/QUOTE]


The reality is that Kobes high in his prime was 6 assists per game. He played 40.7 minutes per game that year and was 3rd in usage rate.

The team had a high assist rate because of Phil Jackson, not Kobe.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14871017]The reality is that Kobes career high was 6 assists per game. He played 40.7 minutes per game that year and was 3rd in usage rate.

The team had a high assist rate because of Phil Jackson, not Kobe.[/QUOTE]

You're an idiot if you think Phil was more responsible for the Lakers success than Kobe. Just like you'd be an idiot so say he was more responsible for the Bulls success than MJ.

The triangle wasn't Phil's concoction. He stole it off Tex Winter.

[QUOTE=tpols;14871023]You're an idiot if you think Phil was more responsible for the Lakers success than Kobe. Just like you'd be an idiot so say he was more responsible for the Bulls success than MJ.

The triangle wasn't Phil's concoction. He stole it off Tex Winter.[/QUOTE]



I didn't say their success was due to Phil, I said he was responsible for their high number of assists. RIF

It doesn't matter who created the offense. As the head coach it was his decision what offense to run.

I agree that Kobe is a lot better than his stats because efficiency depends on the shots you take. He was his team's designated tough shot taker which cratered his efficiency but looking at different categories of scoring, he looks pretty elite. Case in point iso scoring which comprises over a third of his attempts and he converts at 88th percentile. Also if you look at different areas of the floor, you can see he's anywhere from above average to superb in just about all of them.

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/zGhDwXfq/Kobe-Bryant-Playtype-2006-2010.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/DzgT5W33/Kobe-Bryant-06-10.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=tontoz;14871017]The reality is that Kobes career high was 6 assists per game. He played 40.7 minutes per game that year and was 3rd in usage rate.

The team had a high assist rate because of Phil Jackson, not Kobe.[/QUOTE]

Yes, because Kobe wasn't a great passer and didn't have a bunch of hockey assists and passes that led to FTs for his bigs due to the triangle lol. Phil surely didn't say that KB was the best playmaker he had ever coached (better than Pip and MJ), right?

In 2013 under D'antoni, Kobe made the switch to PG mid-season (he was averaging 29.2 ppg on 57.18%TS through 42 games) with injuries & all and averaged 7.5 assists per game for a 36-game stretch until he tore his achilles.

[QUOTE=tpols;14871023]The triangle wasn't Phil's concoction. He stole it off Tex Winter.[/QUOTE]

Steal? They were coaching the same team.

Anyway, this thread goes as expected. People who played with and against Kobe do and will have him in their top 10. The general public has him there, too. Fans of 'his era', people who are 40-55 now, more often than not have him in their top 10 (let alone 20). The new generation not necessarily. Thankfully, it doesn't change our memories.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14871029]I agree that Kobe is a lot better than his stats because efficiency depends on the shots you take. He was his team's designated tough shot taker which cratered his efficiency but looking at different categories of scoring, he looks pretty elite. Case in point iso scoring which comprises over a third of his attempts and he converts at 88th percentile. Also if you look at different areas of the floor, you can see he's anywhere from above average to superb in just about all of them.

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/zGhDwXfq/Kobe-Bryant-Playtype-2006-2010.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/DzgT5W33/Kobe-Bryant-06-10.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


The problem was that a lot of those tough shots were taken with plenty of time on the clock. He loved taking long, contested jumpers.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14871031]Yes, because Kobe wasn't a great passer and didn't have a bunch of hockey assists and passes that led to FTs for his bigs due to the triangle lol. Phil surely didn't say that KB was the best playmaker he had ever coached (better than Pip and MJ), right?

In 2013 under D'antoni, Kobe made the switch to PG mid-season (he was averaging 29.2 ppg on 57.18%TS through 42 games) with injuries & all and averaged 7.5 assists per game for a 36-game stretch until he tore his achilles.[/QUOTE]

Good point.

Kobe averaged more dimes under Dantoni than Phil, yet the Lakers were only the 17th ranked assist team.

So his production in the triangle despite being superb is actually deflated.

If we let him play in a dumbed down system and "westbrook" it he'd have even more dimes than the most in Lakers history outside Magic, but the team would've been worse off for it.

With Kobes size, athleticism and skill why didn't he have at least one season with a TS of 60%? :confusedshrug:

That isn't exactly a high bar and he never even got close.

[QUOTE=tpols;14871014]And yet we've seen just as bad from Lebron in 2011 where he refused to shoot and cratered his team in a huge upset loss (factually by the odds and context). Yet a lot of people still have him top 5 GOAT.

Kobe would've been by far the best player in your franchises history, but you're biased.

You kind of remind me of Xiao who said he would take Gobert over Kobe or Kidd.

It's just... purely irrational and not looking at the whole scope of things.[/QUOTE]

I never said that but I wouldn't expect anything less on ISH :facepalm

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14870977]Do you ever invoke an argument into your statement?


Why cant Kawhi be ranked above Kobe?[/QUOTE]

Did you miss my post that KL just doesn't play enough?

He has 2 rings - one averaging only 12.9/6.2 in RS and 14.3/6.7 in playoffs (he did have a great last 3 games of the Finals but 9/2 in both of the first two games). I gave him his props for TOR ring and his defense but in total - not anywhere near to jump over the entirety of Kobe's career.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14870983]You can look at rings last.

They have absolutely no value if you just go by them without first evaluating if the play to acquire those rings was higher and the reason for why that player has rings and the other does not.


Youre still too warped in the ringz universe.[/QUOTE]

Did you read my post where I have Kobe and Hakeem interchangeable at 10-11? That's 5 rings vs 2 rings with great individual play/defense/carrying.

And you place too little value on rings. How many great players have there been? How else is one supposed to evaluate them? The top 10 players have all had great individual play IN ADDITION to rings. If not for Ray's 3, Lebron would have 3 rings and 3 FMVP - Duncan would probably have 6 rings with 4 FMVPs. Would anyone then rank Lebron above Duncan?

30 ppg in the triangle is the greatest demonstration of basketball skill that I've ever seen from a perimeter player - it requires goat jumpshooting skill and post play coupled with no ball-domination and low turnovers

I've never heard of or seen a better demonstration of basketball skill and ability.. It elevated teammates, chemistry, coaching and ultimately team ceiling/Finals records - it was capable of winning the most with the least (repeating with a 1x all-star)

[QUOTE=3ba11;14871063]30 ppg in the triangle is the greatest demonstration of basketball skill that I've ever seen from a perimeter player - it requires goat jumpshooting skill and post play coupled with no ball-domination and low turnovers

I've never heard of or seen a better demonstration of basketball skill and ability.. It elevated teammates, chemistry, coaching and ultimately team ceiling/Finals records - it was capable of winning the most with the least (repeating with a 1x all-star)[/QUOTE]

Shaq peaked higher in the "triangle" than Kobe did.

[QUOTE=rmt;14871060]Did you read my post where I have Kobe and Hakeem interchangeable at 10-11? That's 5 rings vs 2 rings with great individual play/defense/carrying.

And you place too little value on rings. How many great players have there been? How else is one supposed to evaluate them? The top 10 players have all had great individual play IN ADDITION to rings. If not for Ray's 3, Lebron would have 3 rings and 3 FMVP - Duncan would probably have 6 rings with 4 FMVPs. Would anyone then rank Lebron above Duncan?[/QUOTE]


Only people not interested in doing the proper work will put heavy emphasis on rings. Its the simpletons go-to. Sorry.

They dont mean anything in-and-of-themself and theres nothing you can do to change that.




Ive seen Kobe dribble the clock all the way down on so many occasions that Id be dishonest to mysef if I was trying to spread this absurd "he always took the teams late shots!" narrative.

Its hilarious that his supporters decided to go with that as reason for his inefficiency.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14870999]he made the adjustment to sag off of rondo to dare him to shoot because that was by far the weakest part of his game and it allowed him to cover a lot more space for help defense, and it worked.

you are talking to someone who watched the full game live, you aren’t gonna pass any bullshit off to me[/QUOTE]


No shit, but how do you take away that "he brought it big on defense" when he chose an assignment that allowed him to sag off a player?


Do you not have basic intelligence?

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;14870985]No argument, as expected.


Yeah, I bet coaches dont care about their players being efficient either, right?

Makes no difference to them between deciding to start Player A or Player B.


:oldlol::facepalm


Stick to the OTC griffith[/QUOTE]

No you're right, efficiency is everything. The most efficient player is the best player always and without exception.That's why Shaq is the greatest player of all time. Even better than Lebron. Nobody was more efficient than Shaq on a regular basis.

Career FG%

Lebron - .505
Shaq - [B].582[/B]

Yikes, Lebron's not even close.

Sorry, the efficiency gods have spoken and judging from the numbers Lebron is not even on the Mt. Rushmore.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871152]No you're right, efficiency is everything. The most efficient player is the best player always and without exception.That's why Shaq is the greatest player of all time. Even better than Lebron. Nobody was more efficient than Shaq on a regular basis.

Career FG%

Lebron - .505
Shaq - [B].582[/B]

Yikes, Lebron's not even close.

Sorry, the efficiency gods have spoken and judging from the numbers Lebron is not even on the Mt. Rushmore.[/QUOTE]

Shaq was like a 50% free throw shooter, that drastically cut his efficiency. Shaq & LeBron's TS% are pretty much equal to each other.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871154]Shaq was like a 50% free throw shooter, that drastically cut his efficiency. Shaq & LeBron's TS% are pretty much equal to each other.[/QUOTE]
Bodybagged :oldlol:

Bawler should stick to raving about trans people, he is clueless about basketball. "Kobe top 2 all time" :roll:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871154]Shaq was like a 50% free throw shooter, that drastically cut his efficiency. Shaq & LeBron's TS% are pretty much equal to each other.[/QUOTE]

Oh, so now free throws matter? I thought efficiency was the be all and end all? What happened?

Who's a better free throw shooter? Kobe or Lebron? Who's more likely to ice the game from the free throw line?

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871157]Oh, so now free throws matter? I thought efficiency was the be all and end all? What happened?

Who's a better free throw shooter? Kobe or Lebron? Who's more likely to ice the game from the free throw line?[/QUOTE]

TS% factors fg%, 3pt%, & ft%. It's the best way to judge someone's efficiency. And LeBron also blows Kobe out of the water in that department.

[QUOTE=Baller234;14870921]@1987 Lakers

I'm not going to argue with over Kobe and Lebron. I think Kobe was better but I don't think choosing Lebron is blasphemy. He obviously also has a case as one of the best to ever to do it.

The problem is when people pretend that Kobe is Carmelo Anthony and doesn't belong anywhere near the GOAT discussion, or when they insist he's not even top 10.[/QUOTE]

It's obvious to pretty much everyone that Kobe was a tier ahead of Carmelo, but he doesn't belong anywhere near the GOAT convo and ranking him just outside the top 10 is pretty reasonable.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871159]TS% factors fg%, 3pt%, & ft%. It's the best way to judge someone's efficiency. And LeBron also blows Kobe out of the water in that department.[/QUOTE]

Oh wow, you went to made up advanced statistics. What good is TS% when you're shooting free throws to ice the game? How come these invented statistics are only relevant when you want it to be?

And even if we were to play your game, Lebron's career TS% is [B].58[/B] and Kobe's is .[B]55[/B]. Oh wow, a whole 3% difference. I guess that's sure fire proof that Lebron was the better basketball player.

Also I'm curious, does this logic still apply? It looks like Lebron's highest TS% for a season was [B].64[/B] back in 2012.

Here are the players who had a higher TS% than that just last season:

- Zion
- Giannis
- Curry
- Durant
- Jokic

I guess considering that these players had more efficient seasons than Lebron had throughout his entire career, they all must be better than Lebron.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Baller234;14871165]Oh wow, you went to made up advanced statistics. What good is TS% when you're shooting free throws to ice the game? How come these invented statistics are only relevant when you want it to be?

And even if we were to play your game, Lebron's career TS% is [B].58[/B] and Kobe's is .[B]55[/B]. Oh wow, a whole 3% difference. I guess that's sure fire proof that Lebron was the better basketball player.

Also I'm curious, does this logic still apply? It looks like Lebron's highest TS% for a season was [B].64[/B] back in 2012.

Here are the players who had a higher TS% than that just last season:

- Zion
- Giannis
- Curry
- Durant
- Jokic

I guess considering that these players had more efficient seasons than Lebron had throughout his entire career, they all must be better than Lebron.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

You are missing the point, efficiency is a great thing to have, but LeBron's game is simply more versatile than Kobe's. Along with the efficiency, LeBron is arguably the greatest passing forward ever along with Bird, at his defensive peak he was more impactful than Kobe and to top it off his longevity is simply a tier above his. It's pretty much impossible to have Kobe ranked ahead of him, I haven't seen any list have Kobe ahead of LeBron since 2016.

This site had a top 75 players ever project a couple of years ago and Kobe came in at #11.
Realgm had Kobe at #12 in 2020.

Whether you like it or not, your whole "Kobe is in the GOAT convo" belief is a claim that isn't agreed upon by most fans.

[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777[/url]

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14871167]You are missing the point, efficiency is a great thing to have, but LeBron's game is simply more versatile than Kobe's. Along with the efficiency, LeBron is arguably the greatest passing forward ever along with Bird, at his defensive peak he was more impactful than Kobe and to top it off his longevity is simply a tier above his. It's pretty much impossible to have Kobe ranked ahead of him, I haven't seen any list have Kobe ahead of LeBron since 2016.

This site had a top 75 players ever project a couple of years ago and Kobe came in at #11.
Realgm had Kobe at #12 in 2020.

Whether you like it or not, your whole "Kobe is in the GOAT convo" belief is a claim that isn't agreed upon by most fans.

[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777[/url][/QUOTE]

Wait I'm confused.

Before it was [B]"Lebron is better because of efficiency"[/B].

Then when that logic was turned on it's head, the argument transformed into [B]"Lebron is better because of TS%"[/B]

And now that THAT logic got turned on it's head, the argument has transformed yet again. Now it's [B]"Lebron is better because I've seen him ranked higher on other people's lists...[/B]"

[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/J2DYCDA15pTau86IGr/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9520jazqxtz6a9ob7n3m4erjib6vgf37y93hdw11a64&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g[/IMG]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

If you really wanna break down skill for skill, Kobe is a far better one on one player and he's also better at playing off the ball. So miss me with all that fake advanced bullshit.

I respect Lebron as one of the all time great players, but his fans are the absolute worst and really don't know about dikk about dikk. It's really just stats stats stats with you guys.

It's close but give me Mamba all day.