Why are the Kyrie and Luka Doncic duo ain't working?

[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You;14890352]Yep! I at least need effort at both ends of the floor if not results[/QUOTE]
Only due to human psychology. Guys will try harder on one end if they're getting the ball at the other end. They'll try harder if their shot is falling and/or the team is on a run. They'll try harder if the star looks like he's going hard too. etc..

Otherwise, I'd want to see an increase in effort only if its leading to better results. Not everyone's effort is a 1:1 with effectiveness. Nor is everyone's effort equally valuable. If I have a guy like Steph who's running off screens and fighting through defenders on one end, I don't want him to exert as much energy on D as Draymond.

[QUOTE=FKAri;14890417]Only due to human psychology. Guys will try harder on one end if they're getting the ball at the other end. They'll try harder if their shot is falling and/or the team is on a run. They'll try harder if the star looks like he's going hard too. etc..

Otherwise, I'd want to see an increase in effort only if its leading to better results. Not everyone's effort is a 1:1 with effectiveness. Nor is everyone's effort equally valuable. If I have a guy like Steph who's running off screens and fighting through defenders on one end, I don't want him to exert as much energy on D as Draymond.[/QUOTE]

that was the Jazz excuse for Mitchell not playing D while Gobert relentlessly set screens, rolled to the basket, pounded the offensive glass, blocked others off the boards, defended Mitchell's guy at the other end...

[QUOTE=FKAri;14890417]Only due to human psychology. Guys will try harder on one end if they're getting the ball at the other end. They'll try harder if their shot is falling and/or the team is on a run. They'll try harder if the star looks like he's going hard too. etc..

Otherwise, I'd want to see an increase in effort only if its leading to better results. Not everyone's effort is a 1:1 with effectiveness. Nor is everyone's effort equally valuable. If I have a guy like Steph who's running off screens and fighting through defenders on one end, I don't want him to exert as much energy on D as Draymond.[/QUOTE]

I think everyone is able to tell the difference between "not good, but effort is there", "trying but not able", "doing the minimum but doing it" and "not giving a ****".

Luka is currently at "not giving a ****" and he needs to at least be at "doing the minimum" every single defensive possession. There can't be situations where he simple lets the opponent walk past him.

[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You;14890426]that was the Jazz excuse for Mitchell not playing D while Gobert relentlessly set screens, rolled to the basket, pounded the offensive glass, blocked others off the boards, defended Mitchell's guy at the other end...[/QUOTE]

This is why I think Mavs should have done everything possible to get Gobert to match with Luka. Can't imagine a better fit.

[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You;14890426]that was the Jazz excuse for Mitchell not playing D while Gobert relentlessly set screens, rolled to the basket, pounded the offensive glass, blocked others off the boards, defended Mitchell's guy at the other end...[/QUOTE]

Made sense tho. Rudy saving his energy for the offensive end isn't really netting me the same results as DMitch doing it. A balance needs to be found. That's where coaches come in. But like I said it's complicated by the human element, i.e. "why am I having to work harder than that guy". These thoughts are in their heads even if only subconsciously so.

[QUOTE=FKAri;14890460]Made sense tho. Rudy saving his energy for the offensive end isn't really netting me the same results as DMitch doing it. A balance needs to be found. That's where coaches come in. But like I said it's complicated by the human element, i.e. "why am I having to work harder than that guy". These thoughts are in their heads even if only subconsciously so.[/QUOTE]

Gobert could have saved himself at the offensive end and they would have been bad at both ends of the floor instead of just 1

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14890265]He has a +6.3 Net Rating and is the 3rd most impactful player in the league currently in terms of EPM (+7.5), ahead of Jokic (+6.6). Jokic is actually worse on defense according to EPM.

They're a +5.5 when Kyrie and Luka are both on the court, and -9.7 with both on the bench. The defense barely improves (~2 points per 100) while the offense falls apart when Luka's on the bench overall.[/QUOTE]

Bingo

When the shots are falling and the team is rolling, obviously it's all good. But when the shots arent falling, Luka Ball can be really painful to watch. It's so stagnant and uninspiring.

That said, they just dont have many other options. They're one of the few teams left in the league who dont have an offensively skilled center. They dont really have a sixth man who creates offense either. It's just Irving and Doncic who play on the floor together and overlap each other's skills, with a bunch of average floor spacers and a center.

On the one hand you can see the team doesnt exactly enjoy playing Luka Ball, on the other hand theyre just less likely to win if they dont.

All Luka and Kyrie have to do is make it to the playoffs. And then flip that playoff gear switch.

[QUOTE=tpols;14890576]All Luka and Kyrie have to do is make it to the playoffs. And then flip that playoff gear switch.[/QUOTE]

Maybe. I like their chances more than the book odds, altho how far they can go is gonna depend a lot on when they meet Denver. It’s looking more and more like nobody is beating a healthy Nuggets in a series.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14890579]Maybe. I like their chances more than the book odds, altho how far they can go is gonna depend a lot on when they meet Denver. It’s looking more and more like nobody is beating a healthy Nuggets in a series.[/QUOTE]

Key to beating Denver is making Aaron Gordon shoot. He's the weak link like Harrison Barnes on the 2016 Warriors.

[QUOTE=tpols;14890576]All Luka and Kyrie have to do is make it to the playoffs. And then flip that playoff gear switch.[/QUOTE]

Do you think honestly Luka has an extra gear? lol. Half of the games I see he tries his hardest (to get his numbers up) and looks half exhausted by the 4th.

[QUOTE=SATAN;14890718]Do you think honestly Luka has an extra gear? lol. Half of the games I see he tries his hardest (to get his numbers up) and looks half exhausted by the 4th.[/QUOTE]

In the playoffs Luka will be able to seek out and exploit his opponent though like he did against Gobert, Zubac, Beverly etc.

Also pace slows down, which benefits him. More contact allowed, easier to play defense.

[QUOTE=SATAN;14890718]Do you think honestly Luka has an extra gear? lol. Half of the games I see he tries his hardest (to get his numbers up) and looks half exhausted by the 4th.[/QUOTE]

Luka is 3rd in 4th quarter scoring (Fox and Giannis are ahead of him by .1 ppg) with 8 ppg on 52/40/75 splits or ~65%TS. I think he's doing fine.

There is no question Luka is the biggest shot jacking ball hog of all time. The guy has no shame whatsoever.

Shot after shot after shot :oldlol:

Another brick.

Nice air ball :oldlol:

[QUOTE=SATAN;14890910]There is no question Luka is the biggest shot jacking ball hog of all time. The guy has no shame whatsoever.[/QUOTE]

6 straight 30+point triple-doubles, most in NBA history

also 5 straight games with 35+ points

and he's shooting lights out

He's averaging like 38/10/11 on above 50%FG/60%TS post-ASB in 9 games

You're FUMING

[QUOTE=tpols;14890590]Key to beating Denver is making Aaron Gordon shoot. He's the weak link like Harrison Barnes on the 2016 Warriors.[/QUOTE]

Aaron Gordon is a completely different, and far better player than Barnes was at the time.

He’s not a shooter and won’t be playing offensively like he is.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14890977]6 straight 30+point triple-doubles, most in NBA history

also 5 straight games with 35+ points

and he's shooting lights out

He's averaging like 38/10/11 on above 50%FG/60%TS post-ASB in 9 games

You're FUMING[/QUOTE]
You can't just praise him for having those stats when at the same time, his team just had more than five losses since the all-star week lmao.

[QUOTE=Axe;14891109]You can't just praise him for having those stats when at the same time, his team just had more than five losses since the all-star week lmao.[/QUOTE] just about every player has positives and negatives. Posters tend to focus on one aspect or the other depending on how much they like the player. It's possible to make up for what Doncic lacks defensively but the Mavericks squandered resources so they struggle with it. The defense is the reason why they lose games, not Doncic's offense. It may not be as much fun for his teammates as less heliocentric systems but he's effective. Because they don't have elite man and help defenders to make up for it sometime in the first two rounds they will lose and we'll see the Clippers, Nuggets or whoever actively hunt him when the Mavs are on defense but it is still possible to build a champ team with him as the best player. His teammates just have to be professional enough to do their jobs at a high level while he plays terrible defense. But it is a challenge to find a group of guys that get that done on a championship level.

Nobody wants to see this duo in the first round

[QUOTE=Manny98;14891115]Nobody wants to see this duo in the first round[/QUOTE]
Phoenix would have a problem. Clippers (if healthy) have the right personnel to defend Doncic and torch him on the other end. Denver should also win. Thunder and OKC are a little unknown but no one is scared of them because their defense is awful. Doncic can get his and still lose.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14891119]Phoenix would have a problem. Clippers (if healthy) have the right personnel to defend Doncic and torch him on the other end. Denver should also win. Thunder and OKC are a little unknown but no one is scared of them because their defense is awful. Doncic can get his and still lose.[/QUOTE]
Doncic has repeatedly torched Kawhi and PG13 … while healthy

[QUOTE=Axe;14891109]You can't just praise him for having those stats when at the same time, his team just had more than five losses since the all-star week lmao.[/QUOTE]

He's a Kobe stan. He fully endorses shot jacking.

That game yesterday...Luka goes to the bench after trying to play 1 vs 5 for most of the quarter and what do you know? The team has no rhythm and Kyrie starts trying to get his numbers. Just looked like bad basketball. I don't care about his stats. **** him. Can't retire soon enough imo...

[QUOTE=WhiteKyrie;14891160]Doncic has repeatedly torched Kawhi and PG13 … while healthy[/QUOTE]
Last time they played the Clippers won and Doncic was 9 of 25. Before that the Clippers won and Doncic was 12 of 27. Doncic did dominate the first meeting of the season (44 points on 17 of 21) but that's just one out of three meetings. The Clippers have the personnel to defend Doncic on paper and the results so far this season say that they can definitely beat Dallas.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14891164]Last time they played the Clippers won and Doncic was 9 of 25. Before that the Clippers won and Doncic was 12 of 27. Doncic did dominate the first meeting of the season (44 points on 17 of 21) but that's just one out of three meetings. The Clippers have the personnel to defend Doncic on paper and the results so far this season say that they can definitely beat Dallas.[/QUOTE]so the 17 for 21 for 44 doesn’t count? Of course those two guys are long and fairly good defenders so they would give problems. But you can’t discount it. That’s a monumental game.

[QUOTE=SATAN;14891162]He's a Kobe stan. He fully endorses shot jacking.

That game yesterday...Luka goes to the bench after trying to play 1 vs 5 for most of the quarter and what do you know? The team has no rhythm and Kyrie starts trying to get his numbers. Just looked like bad basketball. I don't care about his stats. **** him. Can't retire soon enough imo...[/QUOTE]

again coming from The Bum stan :roll:

[QUOTE=WhiteKyrie;14891166]so the 17 for 21 for 44 doesn’t count? Of course those two guys are long and fairly good defenders so they would give problems. But you can’t discount it. That’s a monumental game.[/QUOTE]
How was it discounted? You don't sound literate.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14891113]just about every player has positives and negatives. Posters tend to focus on one aspect or the other depending on how much they like the player. It's possible to make up for what Doncic lacks defensively but the Mavericks squandered resources so they struggle with it. The defense is the reason why they lose games, not Doncic's offense. It may not be as much fun for his teammates as less heliocentric systems but he's effective. Because they don't have elite man and help defenders to make up for it sometime in the first two rounds they will lose and we'll see the Clippers, Nuggets or whoever actively hunt him when the Mavs are on defense but it is still possible to build a champ team with him as the best player. His teammates just have to be professional enough to do their jobs at a high level while he plays terrible defense. But it is a challenge to find a group of guys that get that done on a championship level.[/QUOTE]
I know luka is a big performer lol. And it's not entirely his fault that his team lost some defensive pieces that would have made them closer to becoming title contenders. It's more about that he praised luka for his stats and triple dubs when it's likely that he'd call lebron 'empty stats' if he's the one who's doing those instead rn.

[QUOTE=SATAN;14891162]He's a Kobe stan. He fully endorses shot jacking.

That game yesterday...Luka goes to the bench after trying to play 1 vs 5 for most of the quarter and what do you know? The team has no rhythm and Kyrie starts trying to get his numbers. Just looked like bad basketball. I don't care about his stats. **** him. Can't retire soon enough imo...[/QUOTE]
Well, whatever it is, it's apparent that the mavs aren't going to replicate the playoff success they had two years ago with this current setup. They need to get the others involved again first before that happens.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14891119]Phoenix would have a problem. Clippers (if healthy) have the right personnel to defend Doncic and torch him on the other end. Denver should also win. Thunder and OKC are a little unknown but no one is scared of them because their defense is awful. Doncic can get his and still lose.[/QUOTE]

This is a team that's built for the playoffs, I don't think they can beat Denver or the Lakers but they'll make some noise

[QUOTE=Axe;14891109]You can't just praise him for having those stats when at the same time, his team just had more than five losses since the all-star week lmao.[/QUOTE]

Yes I can. He's had a positive +/- in 6 out of the 9 games. Ain't his fault the team falls apart w/o him. You can't really do any better than 37.4/10/11.1 on 64.8%TS, which is what he's averaged in this 9-game stretch.

They lost by 2 to the Cavs, he was a +13.. took a miracle half-court shot for them to lose that game too

They lost by 4 to Philly, he was a +9, obviously they had some "garbage time" buckets to cut it close at the end but at the same time his teammates were not getting any stops when it mattered

It would be one thing if he played like trash and was losing them games on D, but he's producing way more than what he gives up on the other end. It's a team & a coaching problem and not a Luka one.

[QUOTE=Manny98;14891215]This is a team that's built for the playoffs, I don't think they can beat Denver or the Lakers but they'll make some noise[/QUOTE]
Their defense stinks and they completely revolve around one player. How are they built for the playoffs?

[QUOTE=Manny98;14891215]This is a team that's built for the playoffs, I don't think they can beat Denver or the Lakers but they'll make some noise[/QUOTE]

If they can't beat a play-in team how are they built for the playoffs? :lol

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14891218]Yes I can. He's had a positive +/- in 6 out of the 9 games. Ain't his fault the team falls apart w/o him. You can't really do any better than 37.4/10/11.1 on 64.8%TS, which is what he's averaged in this 9-game stretch.

They lost by 2 to the Cavs, he was a +13.. took a miracle half-court shot for them to lose that game too

They lost by 4 to Philly, he was a +9, obviously they had some "garbage time" buckets to cut it close at the end but at the same time his teammates were not getting any stops when it mattered

It would be one thing if he played like trash and was losing them games on D, but he's producing way more than what he gives up on the other end. It's a team & a coaching problem and not a Luka one.[/QUOTE]
You may have a valid point but i see the double-standard here in how you composed that kind of favoring narrative for someone who you like. Yet dismiss somebody else even if they did something equally great if you don't like them at all.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14891218]Yes I can. He's had a positive +/- in 6 out of the 9 games. Ain't his fault the team falls apart w/o him. [/QUOTE]

Yes it is.

[QUOTE=Axe;14891345]You may have a valid point but i see the double-standard here in how you composed that kind of favoring narrative for someone who you like. Yet dismiss somebody else even if they did something equally great if you don't like them at all.[/QUOTE]

And who are you referring to here? If you're talking about Bran then context matters. No one here is comparing Luka to Kobe or Bran, y'all are saying he's hurting his team when in reality he's doing everything to elevate a mediocre supporting cast. Now, if he got to the Finals and lost averaging a 30-point triple-double and y'all tried to compare it to someone who actually won a ring, I'd be arguing against him.

Context. Context. Context.

Man these dudes are Big Trash together! :facepalm

They should've got rid of one or both of them.