Lebron James - 4 FMVPs - 2nd best Winner of all time

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The following was required in 1992 to sweep a 1st Round opponent and show no weakness as defending champs:


[Indent][img]https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-25-2024/WOxWbX.gif[/img][/Indent]


The proper perspective that young fans should have about MJ is to look at the 1998 Finals, which is a good example because many young fans have some knowledge and/or remember this series.

[I]the point is that EVERY series was like the 98' Finals, as far as the goat stats, 2nd half and 4th quarter domination, heroics and statistical gap between MJ and his cast. [/I]

This includes the sweeps (shown above or [url=https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U_Ca7_HClNg]here[/url] for example), let alone the 6 or 7-game series, which show similar heroics and massive gaps in stats between MJ and his cast.. Only the GOAT carried this load on offense, so MJ's goat defense further separates him (1st team defense every year including a runner-up DPOY, DPOY, and no worse than 7th from 88' to 98' plus scoring champ, aka goat peak and goat longevity of peak).

Russell would definitely have more than 4 FMVP's had they been given in that era but OP's point stands.

[QUOTE=3ba11;14939049].
The following was required in 1992 to sweep a 1st Round opponent and show no weakness as defending champs:


[Indent][img]https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-25-2024/WOxWbX.gif[/img][/Indent]


The proper perspective that young fans should have about MJ is to look at the 1998 Finals, which is a good example because many young fans have some knowledge and/or remember this series.

[I]the point is that EVERY series was like the 98' Finals, as far as the goat stats, 2nd half and 4th quarter domination, heroics and statistical gap between MJ and his cast. [/I]

This includes the sweeps (shown above or [url=https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U_Ca7_HClNg]here[/url] for example), let alone the 6 or 7-game series, which show similar heroics and massive gaps in stats between MJ and his cast.. Only the GOAT carried this load on offense, so MJ's goat defense further separates him (1st team defense every year including a runner-up DPOY, DPOY, and no worse than 7th from 88' to 98' plus scoring champ, aka goat peak and goat longevity of peak).[/QUOTE]
Jordan's team won 55 games without him.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14939063]Russell would definitely have more than 4 FMVP's had they been given in that era but OP's point stands.[/QUOTE]

He'd also have more than 6.....

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14939074]He'd also have more than 6.....[/QUOTE]
He might have 11 lol

[IMG]https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-04-2024/oT9i_-.gif[/IMG]



[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14939065]Jordan's team won 55 games without him.[/QUOTE]

And Austin Reaves apparently could win 55 against sleeping opponents as well... :facepalm:

It wasn't remotely surprising that once opponents woke up in the playoffs, the Bulls were exposed and the "real" Bulls without MJ were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.. It's intuitive that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95'.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14939079]He might have 11 lol[/QUOTE]

Not 11 but I think he's probably got a good argument for 7-8.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14939020]Quick bump and reminder for the inbreds posting here.

No one has higher regular season achievements (4 MVPS) and Finals Achievements (4 FMVPs) than Lebron in his era, which is the modern era.

Lebron is the clear cut GOAT of the modern era.[/QUOTE]

Clear cut historical record.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14939074]He'd also have more than 6.....[/QUOTE]

Sure.

He had very subdued offensive series in 1957, 1964, and 1968. So I think he would have about 7.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14939248]Sure.

He had very subdued offensive series in 1957, 1964, and 1968. So I think he would have about 7.[/QUOTE]

Back then somehow the minds that analyzed basketball weren't stuck on ppg and knew Russell's impact. So worrying about his offense whenever that was just the cherry on top of his real impact is questionable.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14939266]Back then somehow the minds that analyzed basketball weren't stuck on ppg and knew Russell's impact. So worrying about his offense whenever that was just the cherry on top of his real impact is questionable.[/QUOTE]

When his teammates are scoring ~10 ppg more than him and also playmaking more then it's likely he doesn't get FMVP. It's not about being stuck on ppg. Defensive impact only takes you so far. Still ~7 FMVP's which he IMO gets is pretty insane.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14939320]When his teammates are scoring ~10 ppg more than him and also playmaking more then it's likely he doesn't get FMVP. It's not about being stuck on ppg. Defensive impact only takes you so far. Still ~7 FMVP's which he IMO gets is pretty insane.[/QUOTE]

Hate to tell you this, but he has 5 LEAGUE MVPS under those exact same circumstances. Cmon now.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14939331]Hate to tell you this, but he has 5 LEAGUE MVPS under those exact same circumstances. Cmon now.[/QUOTE]
Bro's scared he'd almost double his hero in FMVPs :lol

I remember I saw a comprehensive breakdown on FMVP's pre 1969, don't remember which site, and they came to the conclusion Russell would've won 7 FMVP's for his first 10 rings, which imo is a pretty fair estimate.

Where Russell really gets boned is not having DPOY in his era, he could've won almost every year of his career, I think that same site estimated he'd be at something ridiculous like 11 DPOY's.

Let me clarify that Bill Russell is basically included in this as well since we know he would've had a lot of FMVPs if the award existed.

So I am happy to rephrase the OP to only factor in the NBA post-1980 (3-point line).

When it comes to GOAT discussions, the players NEED the FMVP with the Ring. It's a requirement.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14939338]Let me clarify that Bill Russell is basically included in this as well since we know he would've had a lot of FMVPs if the award existed.

So I am happy to rephrase the OP to only factor in the NBA post-1980 (3-point line).

When it comes to GOAT discussions, the players NEED the FMVP with the Ring. It's a requirement.[/QUOTE]
3ball's real favorite player only won 2 FMVP's for his 5 rings :(

There's zero arguments whatsoever that Lebron is a bigger winner than Bill, the goat, or Kareem. Hell, he doesn't have much of a conversation being above Magic in that regard.

[QUOTE=hold this L;14939699]There's zero arguments whatsoever that Lebron is a bigger winner than Bill, the goat, or Kareem. Hell, he doesn't have much of a conversation being above Magic in that regard.[/QUOTE]
Kareem's last 2 titles are pretty weak for GOAT standards

19/7/2 on 60%TS in the '87 playoffs
14/6/2 on 50%TS in the '88 playoffs

Don't get me wrong, '87 is impressive for a 40 year old, but imo that shouldn't move the needle in GOAT discussions. Besides, people get WAY too caught up in rings in GOAT discussions, treating it like it's golf or tennis.

In regards to LeBron, he played GOAT tier basketball in several years he didn't win like '09, '17 & '18, his team not winning a championship doesn't invalidate how he performed, same could be said for several other players as well.

We all know that kong is probably the most ultimate carrying machine the league has ever seen who used to thrive so much with a roster full of scrubs. But let's face it. There wouldn't be tons of roster changes that happened on his teams throughout his career if he was more effective at winning the finals that way. :ohwell:

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14911931]Lebron won 3 chips in 5 years just like Duncan. Curry was the second option to Durant, so no one cares about Curry those years.

But yes, MJ is ahead of Lebron. Again we agree on that, but you are just too dumb. Lebron can't be the biggest loser in nba history because he literally has 4 FMVPs. You are just saying nonsense. Lebron is the clear 2nd place guy, quit crying about it :lol.[/QUOTE]

FMVPs are worthless. The FMVPs that Curry did not get that you say no one should care about are actually the FMVPs that show how worthless they are.

Curry won a championship before Durant came. Durant got two FMVPs. Which gives the more telling idea of what would happen in the future: the previous championship or the FMVPs? The championship Curry had before of course. That's why despite Durant forming a superteam and Curry being stuck with a team that was last in the league Curry was still the first to win another championship.

[QUOTE=hold this L;14939699]There's zero arguments whatsoever that Lebron is a bigger winner than Bill, the goat, or Kareem. Hell, he doesn't have much of a conversation being above Magic in that regard.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

Well for one, I already said MJ is a greater winner than Lebron. I also gave Bill Russell credit too, but my thread is really for the eras with FMVP (that came at the end of Russell's career).

So half your post is already addressed. And then you try to claim that Lebron has ZERO argument over Kareem/Magic...you know...two guys who literally played for a decade together on the same team :roll:

Your whole post is trash :facepalm

Who is the next person to get to 4 FMVPs?

Right now it's MJ 1, Lebron 2 in the 3-point era.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15023433]Who is the next person to get to 4 FMVPs?

Right now it's MJ 1, Lebron 2 in the 3-point era.[/QUOTE]
Let's see someone get to 3 first. Over the last 15 years only 2 other guys won more than 1, KD had to piggyback onto a 73 win team for his and Kawhi was a role player for one of his.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15023436]Let's see someone get to 3 first. Over the last 15 years only 2 other guys won more than 1, KD had to piggyback onto a 73 win team for his and Kawhi was a role player for one of his.[/QUOTE]

Well the modern era, aka toughest era, started in 2003 (finally using instant replay, first round series went to best of 7, free agency/contract rules changes, and a litany of other things in 2003) and is still going, although we are on the edge of a brand new era, probably by 2028.

It's not surprising only Lebron managed to snag 4 FMVPs and 4 MVPs during the hardest era so far.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15023439]Well the modern era, aka toughest era, started in 2003 (finally using instant replay, first round series went to best of 7, free agency/contract rules changes, and a litany of other things in 2003) and is still going, although we are on the edge of a brand new era, probably by 2028.

It's not surprising only Lebron managed to snag 4 FMVPs and 4 MVPs during the hardest era so far.[/QUOTE]

The new cap rules make it seem less and less likely going forward, because these guys arent going to be able to keep contenders together too many years before retooling.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15023441]The new cap rules make it seem less and less likely going forward, because these guys arent going to be able to keep contenders together too many years before retooling.[/QUOTE]

True, now that I think about it, the NBA probably FULLY started a new era in 2023. We'll have to see if this new era is "harder", it should be but it's not 100% guarantee.

So yeah, either way, Lebron was the GOAT in the hardest KNOWN NBA era (2003-2022).

Lebron got extra Finals chances that he never earned by putting the top 3 players in the East on 1 team and forming big 3's, so this cheating negates the value of his 4 FMVP, since he wasn't really good enough to make all those Finals.

But carry on supporting a proven loser and fraud, while intelligent people patiently wait for this massive negative to give up and retire - it's too late - he lost.. He never caught the ghost and the ghost is long gone.. Now he's an old desperate bum looking for anyone that can carry him to a title, just so he can catch Kobe, let alone Mike.. It's another sad case of an all-timer hanging on too long.. This one will be the most excruciating one ever.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15023475]Lebron got extra Finals chances that he never earned by putting the top 3 players in the East on 1 team and forming big 3's, so this cheating negates the value of his 4 FMVP, since he wasn't really good enough to make all those Finals.

But carry on supporting a proven loser and fraud, while intelligent people patiently wait for this massive negative to give up and retire - it's too late - he lost.. He never caught the ghost and the ghost is long gone.. Now he's an old desperate bum looking for anyone that can carry him to a title, just so he can catch Kobe, let alone Mike.. It's another sad case of an all-timer hanging on too long.. This one will be the most excruciating one ever.[/QUOTE]

All the best players in Lebron's era also played with the best talent, so your whole point is moot. No one matched Lebron in FMVPs or MVPs. Only Jordan is ahead in 3-pointer era. No one else before or after Lebron has been better than Lebron.

[QUOTE=Duffy Pratt;14909895]Russell, Havlicek, Kareem, MJ, Mikan, Magic, Kobe, Duncan.

LeBron is second best after all of them, tied with Shaq, and Steph. That is taking into account number of championships with being the best on team at least once.

[B][SIZE=5]Apparently, you define the best “winner” as involving something other than winning.[/SIZE][/B] Please stop.[/QUOTE]

And that, my friends, is the problem with Bronie fluffers.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15023481]All the best players in Lebron's era also played with the best talent, so your whole point is moot. No one matched Lebron in FMVPs or MVPs. Only Jordan is ahead in 3-pointer era. No one else before or after Lebron has been better than Lebron.[/QUOTE]

So how is Lebron better than Jordan if Jordan won more MVPS and FMVPS and more chips I may add? This is the problem. You claim that Lebron is better than everyone because he has more MVPS and FMVPS but than when Jordan is ahead of him in that department, now you're gonna come up with some excuse on why that doesn't count.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14939338]Let me clarify that Bill Russell is basically included in this as well since we know he would've had a lot of FMVPs if the award existed.

So I am happy to rephrase the OP to only factor in the NBA post-1980 (3-point line).

When it comes to GOAT discussions, the players NEED the FMVP with the Ring. It's a requirement.[/QUOTE]


You also failed to mention that in the bubble year, Anthony Davis lead Lebron in every single statistic that season. Lebron may have stat padded in the Finals, but if you look at the bigger picture Davis was the better scorer and rebounder. And defender.

Kinda like how Doncic leads Leborn in every imaginable stat now.

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023508]You also failed to mention that in the bubble year, Anthony Davis lead Lebron in every single statistic that season. Lebron may have stat padded in the Finals, but if you look at the bigger picture Davis was the better scorer and rebounder. And defender.

[B][SIZE=5]Kinda like how Doncic leads Leborn in every imaginable stat now.[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

Not true. Lebron leads in turnovers.

:roll:

[QUOTE=hold this L;14939699]There's zero arguments whatsoever that Lebron is a bigger winner than Bill, the goat, or Kareem. Hell, he doesn't have much of a conversation being above Magic in that regard.[/QUOTE]

A prime Kareem didn't elevate teams like prime LeBron did. Lakers were a joke before Magic got there. Kareem wasn't even the 3rd best player on his team for his last two titles.

Magic had a shit ton of HOF players around him his entire career. Imagine if LeBron had the 2012 & 2013 Miami cast for 10+ years, that was Magic's career.

Hard to use Magic/Kareem because they both had each other along with other players like Worthy, Cooper, Wilkes, Nixon, Scott, McAdoo etc

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023506]So how is Lebron better than Jordan if Jordan won more MVPS and FMVPS and more chips I may add? count.[/QUOTE]

The same way you assume Jordan is better than Russell under pretty similar circumstances.

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[B]Thread Cliffs[/B]

Lebron's FMVP frequency is among the worst ever (4 for 10), and therefore the 4 FMVP's is a product of simply getting extra chances by being gifted his Finals appearances (via "decisions" and collusions).

*5 FMVPs, when will people adjust for 2015?

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater;15023564]*5 FMVPs, when will people adjust for 2015?[/QUOTE]


FMVP frequencies

Lebron.... 4 for 10
MJ.......... 6 for 6


Lebron was gifted Finals appearances, and then lost more than anyone ever has on that level... So his career is a complete sham.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15023569]FMVP frequencies

Lebron.... 4 for 10
MJ.......... 6 for 6


Lebron was gifted Finals appearances, and then lost more than anyone ever has on that level... So his career is a complete sham.[/QUOTE]

These posts don't say anything different that this thread. In fact, you are validating my thread, because guess what, you can't find anyone with more FMVPs than Jordan and Lebron. :lol

So yeah, thanks for agreeing with me.

[QUOTE=Walk on Water;15023506]So how is Lebron better than Jordan if Jordan won more MVPS and FMVPS and more chips I may add? This is the problem. You claim that Lebron is better than everyone because he has more MVPS and FMVPS but than when Jordan is ahead of him in that department, now you're gonna come up with some excuse on why that doesn't count.[/QUOTE]

I've never said Lebron is better than Jordan. In fact, this very thread, posits that Jordan is 1 and Lebron is 2 in the 3-point era. Basically Lebron is the clear cut GOAT of the modern era, but if we just look at the entire 3-point era, than Jordan is GOAT.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;15023580]These posts don't say anything different that this thread. In fact, you are validating my thread, because guess what, you can't find anyone with more FMVPs than Jordan and Lebron. :lol

So yeah, thanks for agreeing with me.[/QUOTE]


Lebron is bad at getting FMVP's with only 4 for 10 frequency - so just imagine if he wasn't gifted so many Finals appearances - he would have no FMVP