Peak Jokic vs Peak Curry

2015 Warriors: 67-15 W/L; 10.01 SRS; +6 rORtg and -4.2 rDRtg (Bootstrapped!)
2016 Warriors: 73-9 W/L; 10.38 SRS; +8.1 rORtg and -2.6 rDRtg (Bootstrapped!)
2017 Warriors: 67-15 W/L; 11.35 SRS; +6.8 rORtg and -4.8 rDRtg (Stacked!)

The best that Denver has done:

2024 Nuggets: 57-25; 5.23 SRS; +3.2 rORtg and -2.3 rDRtg (Bootstrapped!)

The bench is the obvious area for improvement. But that alone isn't going to take Denver to 2015 and 2016 GSW level. And when I compare the talent in the starting lineups? Not that different TBH. Dray, Bogut, Barnes, and Klay is nice. But so is Gordon, Porter Jr, KCP, and Murray.

[QUOTE=Carbine;14910538]Who gives a **** about 8-10 SRS? Like you and a few people in the world. It's a nothing burger in the grand scheme of things.

Jokic has never had a team/talent level that warranted 65+ wins. Read what I'm going to say twice just to make sure it sinks in all the holes in your brain.

Jokic has NEVER played with an all NBA teammate, an all defense teammate or all star. I believe he is the ONLY MVP and champion that can say that in the history of the game.

Jokic plays in such a way that FOSTERS great team chemistry. His defensive shortcomings are totally overblown. The Nuggets had a very good playoff defense last year and they once again are playing very good defense.

The Mavericks had the #1 ranked defense the last quarter of the regular season with Doncic and Kyrie who are not known for defense whatsoever. This just shows that just because you have one liability (Jokic isn't even a liability, not even close) doesn't mean you can't play team defense at a high level.[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify , Murray would be all nba if he didn’t have health issues,

His post season run where Nuggets won the chip was definitely All NBA caliber of play.

Upgrade Denver's bench and swap out AG for Giannis or Anthony Davis and you'd have a 8-10+ SRS, all-time great team. But you'd be stacking the deck harder than the 2015 and 2016 GSW teams. Curry can lead a team like that with less to work with. Because his positional deficiencies aren't as critical as Nikola's. Easier to source the right parts and components when building a team - at a cheaper cost.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14910536]How is it choking when Denver lost to the top seed without Murray?

:facepalm[/QUOTE]

Phoenix wasn’t the top seed. They would have never even beat the Lakers if AD hadn’t gone down. Shit over the hill Chris Paul also had his usual playoff injuries going on too. Lol.

So the leagues MVP and arguably the greatest offensive big man of all time couldn’t take one game from Deandre Ayton and the Suns? Lol. And on top of that he couldn’t even have the composure to not commit a cheap foul and get ejected like a bitch. Lmao.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14910528]

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

[B]You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO.[/B] [b]Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps![/b][/QUOTE]

Curry built Iguodala and Bogut and Draymond and Livingston and Klay and Barnes and Barbosa from a box of scraps?

I dont...

I'm not sure what you even...



I'm confused.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14910545]Curry built Iguodala and Bogut and Draymond and Livingston and Klay and Barnes and Barbosa from a box of scraps?

I dont...

I'm not sure what you even...



I'm confused.[/QUOTE]

[video=youtube;piqGKmqbNZ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piqGKmqbNZ8&ab_channel=BLACK[/video]

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14910541]Just to clarify , Murray would be all nba if he didn’t have health issues,

His post season run where Nuggets won the chip was definitely All NBA caliber of play.[/QUOTE]

If Klay ever played like Murray in the playoffs... Golden State would've NEVER acquired Durant nor would they have lost in 2016. That guy was putting up Wade or Kobe numbers while klay was shitting the bed at 16 ppg giving nothing else.

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;14910544]Phoenix wasn’t the top seed. They would have never even beat the Lakers if AD hadn’t gone down. Shit over the hill Chris Paul also had his usual playoff injuries going on too. Lol.

So the leagues MVP and arguably the greatest offensive big man of all time couldn’t take one game from Deandre Ayton and the Suns? Lol. And on top of that he couldn’t even have the composure to not commit a cheap foul and get ejected like a bitch. Lmao.[/QUOTE]


Denver had Frank Compazzo and Austin Rivers in the starting lineup. Neither guy was in the league this past season.

The Suns were one game out of 1st place that year, made it to the Finals, then won 64 games the next year for the best record in the league.

[QUOTE=tpols;14910547]If Klay ever played like Murray in the playoffs... Golden State would've NEVER acquired Durant nor would they have lost in 2016.[/QUOTE]

Definitely. Murray was pretty amazing during their title run. I just had to call that out because he says “jokic never even played with all nba players”….its insinuating he had no help. Murray was going off in the post season and his cast played well too. Not to take away from Joker but it’s it’s a false narrative to say he had no help.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14910528]My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. [I]Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps![/I][/QUOTE]

I see your point. Curry teams have higher ceilings and Jokic teams have higher floors. I also rate higher ceiling more. Therefore MJ > Lebron. Curry might be the greatest offensive engine ever(for the regular season at least). However in the playoffs, no franchise in history had more luck during their championships than the Warriors. Their strongest opponents got their stars injured in 2017 and 2018. They played an injured team in every single playoff round. Only in 2022 they beat everybody healthy. Otoh(shout out to 3ball) Jokic lost his 2 prime years to teammate injuries. When Klay couldnt play in 2019-20 season, Warriors decided to straight up tank lmao. Jokic has been better in the playoffs and that matters more to me.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14910548]Denver had Frank Compazzo and Austin Rivers in the starting lineup. Neither guy was in the league this past season.

The Suns were one game out of 1st place that year, made it to the Finals, then won 64 games the next year for the best record in the league.[/QUOTE]

That Suns team proved to be frauds though. Lakers beat them if AD stays healthy, Clippers beat them if Leonard stays healthy, and we all saw what Giannis did to them.

Luka alone destroyed that 64 win Suns team the next year, so why couldn’t MVP Jokic even take one game from a less superior team with Chris Paul playing through a shoulder injury?

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14910546][video=youtube;piqGKmqbNZ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piqGKmqbNZ8&ab_channel=BLACK[/video][/QUOTE]


[video=youtube_share;leZgZGG1E1Q]https://youtu.be/leZgZGG1E1Q?si=1jv2NSvoUlhUgA6T[/video]

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14910549]Definitely. Murray was pretty amazing during their title run. I just had to call that out because he says “jokic never even played with all nba players”….its insinuating he had no help. Murray was going off in the post season and his cast played well too. Not to take away from Joker but it’s it’s a false narrative to say he had no help.[/QUOTE]

I am insinuating that he hasn't had any help relative to what other ATG regular season teams have had

What Murray did in the playoffs has nothing to do with the regular season. Murray provided excellent help in the title run, but I'm arguing about regular season SRS here and how Jokic is harder to build a great team around for SRS purposes. Klay Thompson's struggles in the playoffs mean nothing as well - this is strictly a conversation about regular season SRS capability.

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;14910552]That Suns team proved to be frauds though. Lakers beat them if AD stays healthy, Clippers beat them if Leonard stays healthy, and we all saw what Giannis did to them.

Luka alone destroyed that 64 win Suns team the next year, so why couldn’t MVP Jokic even take one game from a less superior team with Chris Paul playing through a shoulder injury?[/QUOTE]

Imo that Suns series is the worst of his entire career. He was bad. CP3 COOKED him. I was harsh on him also. But every other ATG have worse preformances than that, don't they?

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;14910552]That Suns team proved to be frauds though. Lakers beat them if AD stays healthy, Clippers beat them if Leonard stays healthy, and we all saw what Giannis did to them.

Luka alone destroyed that 64 win Suns team the next year, so why couldn’t MVP Jokic even take one game from a less superior team with Chris Paul playing through a shoulder injury?[/QUOTE]


How many starters on that Suns team aren't in the NBA now?

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14910541]Just to clarify , Murray would be all nba if he didn’t have health issues,

His post season run where Nuggets won the chip was definitely All NBA caliber of play.[/QUOTE]


I don't think so. Not to say it's a diss towards Murray, but it's a respect to the competition. Like honestly, who would you cut?

I don't think Murray is better than:
Luka
Curry
SGA
Devin Booker
Ja Morant
De'Aaron Fox
Dame
Donovan Mitchell

And last year, Devin Booker didn't even get into the All-NBA. This year, you got Brunson now. You got Maxey is showing out. Although I feel Murray could do things similar, but Maxey I feel has more potential due to his speed and quickness. Murray is tough shot maker. And you still have Trae Young out there.

Like who would you cut for him to be in the All-NBA? I feel like all of those guys are better with the small exception of Maxey, but I feel like Maxey played better this year. But Murray does play at high level in the playoffs usually. He just isn't consistent enough to play like that in the RS. I feel like Murray could be better than what he is, but he is injury-prone. He does show up in big games.

I can't honestly say that he's an all-nba guy when others consistently provide similar or more production. There are times when Murray could play to that level and you see his potential, but there are legit other guys in the guard position that are better production-wise. The league is stacked full of talent right now, so it's hard to get into all-nba. But Murray could play like it sometimes like in the playoffs. If he keeps that level of play, Denver would be even more dangerous.

[QUOTE=tontoz;14910556]How many starters on that Suns team aren't in the NBA now?[/QUOTE]

Chris Paul shouldn’t be that’s for sure.

How many players on that Suns team were MVP hailed to be a top 20 player ever and are frequently argued to be the best offensive big man of all time?

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;14910560]Chris Paul shouldn’t be that’s for sure.

How many players on that Suns team were MVP hailed to be a top 20 player ever and are frequently argued to be the best offensive big man of all time?[/QUOTE]


How far did Curry get in the playoffs with Klay? Or should i say when did he actually make the playoffs without Klay?

What issues did Steph have, other than when he played on one leg in 2016?

It's too early for this right now. Jokic is still at his peak and has more to do before I'd put him over peak Steph. Steph had more help I agree but that also led to the most dominant RS ever in 2016, followed by the most dominant Playoff run ever in 2017.

Even when KD got injured he took them to the Finals and had one of the greatest individual series in NBA history against Portland in 2019, and took prime Kawhi to 6 games with half the GS rotation injured. I'd argue that Curry's 2022 title run was more impressive than anything Jokic has done so far in the POs, and that was a past-prime Steph with a team that was arguably worse than any of the healthy Denver ones.

Jokic easily lol

[QUOTE=tontoz;14910562]How far did Curry get in the playoffs with Klay? Or should i say when did he actually make the playoffs without Klay?[/QUOTE]
No klay, no play. :ohwell:

[QUOTE=tontoz;14910562]How far did Curry get in the playoffs with Klay? Or should i say when did he actually make the playoffs without Klay?[/QUOTE]

Hey I’m not going hate on Klay. Steph needed him.

And I’m not hating on Jokic because he lost that 2021 series to Phoenix. The Suns probably were the better overall team. I’m being critical because of the way he lost while being MVP. He was swept in second round by a team that hadn’t made the playoffs in 10 years and he got so frustrated he was tossed from the elimination game. Lol. If that were Curry his first MVP season we’d never hear the end of it. Jokic is a great player but he is not without faults.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14910563]What issues did Steph have, other than when he played on one leg in 2016?

It's too early for this right now. Jokic is still at his peak and has more to do before I'd put him over peak Steph. Steph had more help I agree but that also led to the most dominant RS ever in 2016, followed by the most dominant Playoff run ever in 2017.

Even when KD got injured he took them to the Finals and had one of the greatest individual series in NBA history against Portland in 2019, and took prime Kawhi to 6 games with half the GS rotation injured. I'd argue that Curry's 2022 title run was more impressive than anything Jokic has done so far in the POs, and that was a past-prime Steph with a team that was arguably worse than any of the healthy Denver ones.[/QUOTE]

ask FultzNationRise

he will give you some anecdote about how he remembers a time where steph curry turned the ball over in the fourth quarter, so that means he is a choker….or some in depth analysis like that lol

[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt;14910572]Hey I’m not going hate on Klay. Steph needed him.

And I’m not hating on Jokic because he lost that 2021 series to Phoenix. The Suns probably were the better overall team. I’m being critical because of the way he lost while being MVP. He was swept in second round by a team that hadn’t made the playoffs in 10 years and he got so frustrated he was tossed from the elimination game. Lol. If that were Curry his first MVP season we’d never hear the end of it. Jokic is a great player but he is not without faults.[/QUOTE]


It was literally a miracle that he got to the 2nd round with that roster. Everyone besides Jokic got hurt that year. They picked Rivers up off waivers late in the season and he was starting in the playoffs lol.

With Jokic I can say with a straight face that he is playing at a level I've never seen higher for an extended time period. Do I select Bird or Jokic as my franchise player is a debate I am willing to take part in. I may side with Bird, but I'd take the question seriously. Jokic or Shaq? Jokic or... it would make me think. The Curry and Kobe types are not in this discussion for me. As great as they are/were, I know I would not take them over the best players I've seen. Jokic is among the best of the best as far as quality of play is concerned. All the accolades are not (yet?) there, but basing this off of 'ability to play' he is tier 1 for me.

It’s close. I don’t see Curry winning more than one in Jokic’s stead, though I can absolutely envision Jok winning 4 or more with Steph’s help.

Edit: reading comprehension fail. Peak4peak, give me Jokic. Playoff riser and more durable. I understand Curry’s gravity holds a lot of latent value that goes beyond the box score, but he’s had some plain bad series.

[QUOTE=PejaTheSerbSnip;14910615]It’s close. I don’t see Curry winning more than one in Jokic’s stead, though I can absolutely envision Jok winning 4 or more with Steph’s help.

Edit: reading comprehension fail. Peak4peak, give me Jokic. Playoff riser and more durable. I understand Curry’s gravity holds a lot of latent value that goes beyond the box score, but he’s had some plain bad series.[/QUOTE]
Yup. Curry blew a 3-1 lead in the finals with a 73-win team.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14910573]ask FultzNationRise

he will give you some anecdote about how he remembers a time where steph curry turned the ball over in the fourth quarter, so that means he is a choker….or some in depth analysis like that lol[/QUOTE]

Which is crazy because Murray has carried Jokic in so many clutch moments in the Playoffs. Jokic fans/Curry haters will use the "no all-stars/all-NBA teammates" argument to boost him in this debate but ignore how Jamal Murray turns into a Kobe/Jordan clone in the Playoffs when it matters most.

Murray as the #2 averaged 26/6/7/2 on 59%TS for the title run last year.

Steph won 2 titles without any of his teammates averaging 20 a game for the Playoffs.

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14910634]Which is crazy because Murray has carried Jokic in so many clutch moments in the Playoffs. Jokic fans/Curry haters will use the "no all-stars/all-NBA teammates" argument to boost him in this debate but ignore how Jamal Murray turns into a Kobe/Jordan clone in the Playoffs when it matters most.

Murray as the #2 averaged 26/6/7/2 on 59%TS for the title run last year.

[B]Steph won 2 titles without any of his teammates averaging 20 a game for the Playoffs[/B].[/QUOTE]

Yea but the quality of opponent that the Warriors had through through both of those runs are some of the weakest I can remember. Not that that matters in the long run though. Still respect. But it matters when trying to compare things across years.

They were fortunate with injuries quite a bit through both of those. If you're going to mention injuries in years they lost it's only fair to mention the other side. I'm okay ignoring it altogether as these things tend to come out in the wash. But be consistent.

It's Joker BECAUSE he's the most skilled offensive center ever. He's the best passing center as well and one of the top 10 passers of all time REGARDLESS of position. And triple double wise, he's likely gonna rank #1 of all time REGARDLESS of position. He's the CLOSEST THING we've seen to a center position of Larry Legend. Bird was the best player in the world at one point just like Joker is now.

No knock against Steph BUT Joker is getting to where ONLY guys like MJ, Bron, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq can be considered as good or better peak prime wise. Small guards like Steph, AI, Zeke, CP3, etc. are simply too small to be superior to those guys. GOAT wise, Steph has the clear edge though.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14910528]My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. [I]Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps![/I][/QUOTE]


I actually think its crazy the Nuggets are this good with that roster.

I look at OKC, Boston, Minny, Clippers, Bucks, etc and they are all significantly more talented IMO.

Jokic is a great floor raiser, and able to do a lot with very little. GSW were an insanely talented team. I don't think that of this Denver team.

Ok so for the record:

[I][U]Warrior[/U] [U]fan[/U][/I] and [I][U]NorCali[/U][/I] Blunt would take Curry. Mostly everyone else taking Jokic.

Im sure [U]warrior[/U] [U]fan[/U], and [U]nor[/U] [U]cali[/U] are objective about curry and golden state tho. It’s not an agenda thing, theyre right and everyone else is wrong! :lol


Hey did you guys know Real Men Wear [U]Green[/U] rates Tatum the highest of any poster here?

[I]It’s a shocking coincidence![/I]

Youd think people with an OBVIOUS BIAS IN THEIR NAME could just concede “hey, im obviously not objective, but im takin curry, or tatum, or whoever.” It’s not a big deal. These men are strangers. You dont get a prize for convincing others theyre the bestest.

The petty insistence that theyre being totally neutral about prefering their guy is just not great self awareness.

Steph is a truly great all time great. Changed the game forever.

But … he can’t simply choose to take over a game in the same way that Jokic can.
Neither can truly PHYSICALLY dominate ANY game, but Kokic sure can do something similar to physical willfull dominance far more frequently, against far more matchups than Steph can even attempt to willfully exert on demand.

Perimeter-based, gravity-based “dominance” can never be as “durable” and “sustainable” as paint-based, ball-movement based, passing-based “dominance”

im conflicted. Jokic is more consistent in playoffs for sure. I dont think many have peaked like curry on offense in 16 and his help in this discussion gets overrated. His teams certainly had talent but that was defensive talent with dray,iggy, bogut, klay etc. On offense they had 1.5 creators in curry and draymond who can pass but not a scorer. Klay was a great shotmaker but didnt create for others. The nuggets have like 2.5 with jokic/murray and gordon(the draymond role) to a certain extent and 2 excellent floor spacers in porter and kcp. dont look at nuggets not having any all stars, they have more offensive talent than the 15-16 gs teams even relative to era and their defense is above average. most title teams have at least 2 shot creators. the 2022 team sure had 2.5 adding poole but recent history suggests poole might not have been that good. That team was deep but had 1 superstar and 1 all star in dray(wiggins,poole, klay werent all star lvl).

Warriors had some relatively easy runs in 15 and 22 but the nuggets run was also relatively easy last year. 22 warriors faced the celtics in finals at least. Nuggets certainly will have an extremely tough run this year but havent won the title yet.

Did you guys know Mask the Embiid prefers Joel Embiid to Jokic?

[I]I couldnt believe it![/I]


:yaohappy:

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14910641]Yea but the quality of opponent that the Warriors had through through both of those runs are some of the weakest I can remember. Not that that matters in the long run though. Still respect. But it matters when trying to compare things across years.

They were fortunate with injuries quite a bit through both of those. If you're going to mention injuries in years they lost it's only fair to mention the other side. I'm okay ignoring it altogether as these things tend to come out in the wash. But be consistent.[/QUOTE]

You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14910657]Ok so for the record:

[I][U]Warrior[/U] [U]fan[/U][/I] and [I][U]NorCali[/U][/I] Blunt would take Curry. Mostly everyone else taking Jokic.

Im sure [U]warrior[/U] [U]fan[/U], and [U]nor[/U] [U]cali[/U] are objective about curry and golden state tho. It’s not an agenda thing, theyre right and everyone else is wrong! :lol


Hey did you guys know Real Men Wear [U]Green[/U] rates Tatum the highest of any poster here?

[I]It’s a shocking coincidence![/I][/QUOTE]

I can acknowledge when i have some bias, your problem is you cannot.

The fact of the matter is you have zero type of credible arguments to back up your weird steph curry hate besides “he doesn’t hero ball enough i’ve seen him at times make a turn over” or “he dances too much and sometimes throws his mouthpiece.” You literally turn into bladefd when it comes to Steph Curry, it’s weird.


If you brought actual arguments I would understand.

But you don’t.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;14910528]My greatest concern is with roster construction on a high-level team. I think some of you need to take a step back and reassess this question from a team-building perspective. Jokic's defensive limitations as a paint/rim protector are a much greater concern than any of Curry's weaknesses or comparative shortcomings.

Optimal personnel and scheme can mitigate Nikola's positional deficiency. But finding those right pieces to compensate is a little tougher than it is for Steph. Hence why I think it's easier to build an ATG-level team with Curry. And he's done it three times: 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Jokic proved he could win a championship. But leading a 8-10+ SRS team? He'll need better defensive players who can make up for his subpar paint protection. A better bench could get Denver to 60+ wins, 6-7 SRS. But beyond that? You'd need upgrades over the starters. And finding those guys who can improve the defense without compromising the offense? Tough.

For instance, Jaren Jackson Jr would most likely improve the defense. He's long, mobile, and loves to contest shots and provide weakside shot-blocking. But even though he can shoot better than Aaron Gordon, does Denver lose too much on offense? Jokic and AG have insane chemistry with the lob and cutting game. I don't know if JJR can do that.

You'd need to stack the deck a little harder to get to that 8-10 SRS tier with Jokic IMO. [I]Curry was able to build this in 2015 and 2016, with a box of scraps![/I][/QUOTE]

Good points, however I’d be quicker to share a lot of these reservations were it not for the Nuggets performing at that aforementioned all-time level with him on the court, over a fairly large sample.

Sure, +12.0 and +11.0 aren’t quite as gaudy as Steph’s offerings from ‘15-‘19 (in the +14 to +16 range), but Steph had at least a moderate supporting cast edge throughout the entirety of that run (large one after ‘16). Hell, even the +8.4 with his depleted Nuggets roster in ‘22 is an impressive datapoint. In the years where there was a little more starting lineup parity (‘15 and ‘16; I still give the Dubs supporting starters the edge, but the gap isn’t ridiculous) Curry’s were a fair bit healthier — 44 missed games compared to 96 for Jokic’s starters.

I suspect a large part of this really is down to the Nuggets porous bench. Do they even have more than five average-or-better basketball players? Braun is borderline, and often looks lost out there despite his big game reputation. The Warriors typically had somewhere from 8 to 10.

(I’ll grant you that my objectivity is compromised by watching their leaky bench cough up leads all year.)

There are a lot of finer points re: roster construction/scalability that I’d start grappling with more if the Nuggets actually put a comparably stacked team around Jok (and still didn’t see the returns you’re skeptical that they would).

Finally, I’d posit that it’s probably a little more challenging for Jokic to create separation over today’s league than it was for Curry in a league where the three-point shot was only just starting to become ubiquitous. Unfair to penalize him for taking advantage of this (relative) blind spot, but when we’re quibbling over stuff like this I do think it makes a difference. The three is such a big equalizer and is just inherently friendlier to parity (or so it seems).

[QUOTE=ImKobe;14910673]You have an argument with 2015 for sure but Steph faced better opponents in '22 than Jokic did in '23.[/QUOTE]
If Jokic goes through LA, Minnie, okc then Boston then can we call this a gauntlet?