Why was Hakeem getting beat in Rd 1 or missing the playoffs for so much of his prime

top 15 like little mikey with all those first rd getting swept

Yeah Hakeem had a bit of a weird career, beat the 86 Lakers to get to the Finals early in his career, but had a lull there before winning back to back in 94-95.

If the implication is Hakeem is overrated, wasn't actually good, etc. etc. sorry but I can't agree. I think he just had poor teams for a good stretch there.

He's still 1 on 1 the most skilled big I've ever seen. He could just cook people alive in the post, foot work, athleticism, agility, shot making all off the charts.

I think he also peaked a bit later in his career, his mental game was much stronger by 94/95.

He missed the playoffs in 1992, but missed 12 games which probably had a lot to do with that, it also tells you his supporting cast (Otis Thorpe as the no.2 player) wasn't very good.

In 1990 and 1991 he lost to Magic's Lakers, so it's not like he was getting beaten by some trash team.

There isn't as much criticism of Hakeem because frankly people don't care that much. The obsession over Jordan (and yes this includes his haters) is a unique phenomenon, no other player really has that, 15 years from now kids are not going to care about LeBron or Kobe or Steph nearly as much as Jordan dominates the conversation still likr 20+ years later. Jordan is the standard and people just gravitate to every aspect of his career, he's just unique, no one else is going to be remembered/obsessed over in that way.

Even players like Wade and Dirk who haven't even been retired that long ... feels like they are so far out of sight out of mind.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913542]^ I totally get. I agree there is context to every result.

But when people discuss ranking Kawhi, inevitably people will bring up blowing a 3-1 lead to a seven foot Windhorst.

If Lebron loses in the finals to the best roster ever assembled people will use that as a reason he cant be ahead of MJ.

People were defining Jokic’s career the other night because he missed a few threes in the first half of a single game.

Ive never heard anyone make such superficial critiques of Hakeem, even tho the opportunity to do so is clearly there.

People scrutinize EVERYTHING about today’s players, and reduce their status with every loss, but seem to “win wash” all the guys from the past. Only the wins count when they rank guys from back in the day.[/QUOTE]

Hakeem not being a casualty of the “unfairly windmilling blame” phenomenon can be framed as a positive thing, though. He flew under the radar in a non-basketball town and was overshadowed by a better player (Jordan), as well as several flashier ones (Barkley, Shaq—who is also arguably better, though I’m not sold—Drexler, etc.) So we didn’t have to hear about his legacy being picked apart as much…even better considering there’s not a whole lot to fairly pick apart.

I do agree that many players have gotten far too much criticism relative to their actual postseason failings (CP3, Dirk before he won his title, LeBron) and so on. Hakeem hasn’t gotten as much scrutiny as them, and others. But the other side of that is that he’s gotten far less flowers in mainstream discussions than the likes of Shaq and Duncan.

Everyone has their flaws in terms of being an ATG, but to divorce context from the reality would be unfair. Hakeem had a lot of issues with the front office and ownership in his years prior to the championship seasons, and it wasn't a pleasant mix to say the least.

That being said, Hakeem missed 12 games in the '92 season. Houston was only 2-10 in those games. If Hakeem is healthy, the Rockets likely make the playoffs.

He also suffered from his teammates' demise - Sampson, Wiggins, Lloyd, and Lucas.

I won't repeat everything but Peja did an excellent job of explaining most of it above. I will say this though, Sampson, Wiggins, Lloyd, and Lucas were fairly young, all being 26-27 years old at the time of injury/suspension with the exception of John Lucas, who was a veteran PG and 32 at the time.

While those guys weren't on the level of the casts of the Lakers and Celtics, one has to wonder and at least contextualize what would have happened if Magic, Bird, or even MJ lost their casts just as they were entering their prime.

Does MJ win 6 titles without Pippen, Grant, BJ, and Phil as the HC? Why would it be any different for Hakeem who lost half of the twin towers while not having a coach the caliber of a Rudy T? Yes, they had Bill Fitch, but rumors were that the Houston team wasn't getting along with Fitch (and it wasn't just Akeem at that point).

But even if we hold Hakeem to account, then what about every other NBA legend? One thing we do know, Hakeem is the greatest two way player in league history. In the postseason at his peak, Hakeem was putting up [B]29/12/3/2/4 on nearly 54%[/B]. And he was doing so whether the league was high paced or slowing down, against some of the best front lines in the league.

If you gave Hakeem the complimentary pieces, then he produced. If he had the luxury of a Phil Jackson, with shooters like BJ, Hodges, Kerr, Paxson, and a floor general like Pippen, then who's winning 6 titles and being heralded as the GOAT?

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913081]Interesting.

Why are there so many low IQ people on ISH who cherry pick the good parts of Hakeem's resume to put him top 10, but for today's players they include all the shortcomings when evaluating a guy?[/QUOTE]

I think most people blame Ralp Sampson not Hakeem for the 80's failure. He did make the finals beating Alex English and KAJ/Magic.

And also in his 30's he beat Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Payton, Magic, Garnett, Stockton, Malone.

I don't know how many guys are top ten in 4 major categories but he's top ten in rebounds, steals, points, and blocks.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;14913081]Interesting.

Why are there so many low IQ people on ISH who cherry pick the good parts of Hakeem's resume to put him top 10, but for today's players they include all the shortcomings when evaluating a guy?[/QUOTE]

It's bot just ish, a loot of hooper fans glaze him because he was a complete elite player offensively and defensively (minus the playmaking)

Because Bill Cartwright elbow changed his face, and changed his name.

It is true. People would scoff at Curry being put over Hakeem even when he has double the superstar rings and more accolades. Which is true. Older players get their failures swept under the rug and their wins highlighted. Hakeem doesn't have a top 10 resume at all. He barely did more than Dirk or Garnett who are top 20ish.

And like for instance Kobe gets shit on for missing the playoffs in one year and getting beat as a 7 seed with an all time bad cast. People said well ... Kobe can't win without Shaq. Then they said he can't win without Pau. But 1995 Clyde Drexler was just as good if not better than Pau. Nobody ever brings that up. It's like Hakeem is immune to hate in a way other players weren't.

[QUOTE=tpols;14916590]It is true. People would scoff at Curry being put over Hakeem even when he has double the superstar rings and more accolades. Which is true. Older players get their failures swept under the rug and their wins highlighted. Hakeem doesn't have a top 10 resume at all. He barely did more than Dirk or Garnett who are top 20ish.[/QUOTE]

[U]Hakeem[/U]

12x All-Star
9x All-Defensive
2x DPOY
2x FMVP
12x All-NBA

[U]Steph[/U]

10x All-Star
0x All-Defensive
0x DPOY
1x FMVP
10x All-NBA

Steph has 1 more MVP than Hakeem. He also has 2 scoring titles, but Hakeem has 2 rebounding titles and 3 blks titles. I'm not sure how he has more accolades all things considered.

Steph won in 2015 with Kyrie and Love both injured, then KD joined the team after the biggest meltdown in NBA history. His rings and finals appearances aren't as great as they look on paper.

[QUOTE=tpols;14916592]And like for instance Kobe gets shit on for missing the playoffs in one year and getting beat as a 7 seed with an all time bad cast. People said well ... Kobe can't win without Shaq. Then they said he can't win without Pau. But 1995 Clyde Drexler was just as good if not better than Pau. Nobody ever brings that up. It's like Hakeem is immune to hate in a way other players weren't.[/QUOTE]

Well Kobe missing the playoffs wasn't his fault. Because some people are Kobe haters isn't a reason to take aim at Hakeem.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14916595][U]Hakeem[/U]

12x All-Star
9x All-Defensive
2x DPOY
2x FMVP
12x All-NBA

[U]Steph[/U]

10x All-Star
0x All-Defensive
0x DPOY
1x FMVP
10x All-NBA

Steph has 1 more MVP than Hakeem. He also has 2 scoring titles, but Hakeem has 2 rebounding titles and 3 blks titles. I'm not sure how he has more accolades all things considered.

Steph won in 2015 with Kyrie and Love both injured, then KD joined the team after the biggest meltdown in NBA history. His rings and finals appearances aren't as great as they look on paper.[/QUOTE]

That a bullshit analysis

. Curry factually has 4 rings producing at a superstar level. He was having series of 28/10/8 and they don't count because he didn't win FMVP? He massively outproduced Iggy but it doesn't count because some nerd journalists gave Iggy the award? When he was obviously the best player on the team and MVP of the entire LEAGUE?

Nah... that FMVP argument is bullshit. Curry literally won in the playoffs FAR more than Hakeem did and its honestly not even close.

Guy won a title with Andrew Wiggins at 2nd option so the help excuse doesnt even fly.

[QUOTE=tpols;14916597]That a bullshit analysis

. Curry factually has 4 rings producing at a superstar level. He was having series of 28/10/8 and they don't count because he didn't win FMVP? He massively outproduced Iggy but it doesn't count because some nerd journalists gave Iggy the award? When he was obviously the best player on the team and MVP of the entire LEAGUE?

Nah... that FMVP argument is bullshit. Curry literally won in the playoffs FAR more than Hakeem did and its honestly not even close.

Guy won a title with Andrew Wiggins at 2nd option so the help excuse doesnt even fly.[/QUOTE]

Well, I didn't exclude his 2022 FMVP. I simply mentioned he has 1 FMVP whereas Hakeem has 2. And where did you get 28/10/8 from? In 2015, Steph put up 26/5/6 in the finals.

Iguodala got FMVP off of the strength of his defensive contribution. Not to mention, he somehow had a slightly higher TS% than Steph during the series. And in the deciding game, Steph came up big, but overall they both were big contributors. Both guys dropped 25 points. I get there is an argument to be made about Steph winning the FMVP, but even if we were to give him that, then it would make them 2-2 in that category. Your original point was that he has accolades over Hakeem. This just isn't the case.

I just noticed you didn't even include MVPs in your accolade analysis. Which is crazy work when you had All Star games at the top.

Curry has DOUBLE the MVPs over Hakeem. (including the only UMVP in league history)

And DOUBLE the rings producing at a superstar level.

And he was doing it against somebody some people call the GOAT... not bums.

That right there is a very strong case that his resume is superior. Not even saying he was necessarily a better player... but you you can be a slightly worse player but with a better resume. Which is what GOAT lists are made up of.

[QUOTE=tpols;14916603]I just noticed you didn't even include MVPs in your accolade analysis. Which is crazy work when you had All Star games at the top.

Curry has DOUBLE the MVPs over Hakeem. (including the only UMVP in league history)

And DOUBLE the rings producing at a superstar level.

And he was doing it against somebody some people call the GOAT... not bums.

That right there is a very strong case that his resume is superior. Not even saying he was necessarily a better player... but you you can be a slightly worse player but with a better resume. Which is what GOAT lists are made up of.[/QUOTE]

I clearly said Steph has 1 more MVP than Hakeem.

[QUOTE]Hakeem

12x All-Star
9x All-Defensive
2x DPOY
2x FMVP
12x All-NBA

Steph

10x All-Star
0x All-Defensive
0x DPOY
1x FMVP
10x All-NBA

[B]Steph has 1 more MVP than Hakeem[/B]. He also has 2 scoring titles, but Hakeem has 2 rebounding titles and 3 blks titles. I'm not sure how he has more accolades all things considered.

Steph won in 2015 with Kyrie and Love both injured, then KD joined the team after the biggest meltdown in NBA history. His rings and finals appearances aren't as great as they look on paper.[/QUOTE]

Saying "double the MVPs" is a nice way of putting it. It could be 4 to 2, but it's not. It's literally 2 to 1. I mean, you could have double the money I have, which could mean $200,000 to $100,000, or simply $1.00 to $0.50.

It's also convenient to ignore the fact that Kyrie and Love were both injured in 2015, and then the Warriors adding KD in 2017, producing the most stacked team, arguably, in league history.

Put Hakeem with prime KD/Klay/Dray I'm confident he's sleepwalking to b2b titles, ditto 2015 playing a bunch of weak/injured opponents. I'd pick him to win in 2022 as well with their toughest opponent having to guard him with old Al Horford.

Put Curry on the '94 & '95 Rockets, do you still pick Houston to win the titles those seasons? I think it's a lot less certain than Hakeem in Curry's place.

Could you argue Curry ahead of Hakeem? Of course, but as usual, rangz is an extremely faulty reasoning to do so.

Btw, you can mock Wiggins, but Hakeem won with Vernon Maxwell as his 2nd option :lol

I mean Ewings 2nd option was an absolute bed wetting John Starks. Literally all time bad 2nd banana. So it evens out.

Hakeems peak was GOAT but his prime wasn't at all. Curry did it for longer.

TBH if Jordan never got retired... Hakeem would probably be ringless like Ewing.

His entire career was made off the back of a 2 year span where the best player ever wasn't in the league.

[QUOTE=tpols;14916618]I mean Ewings 2nd option was an absolute bed wetting John Starks. Literally all time bad 2nd banana. So it evens out.

Hakeems peak was GOAT but his prime wasn't at all. Curry did it for longer.

TBH if Jordan never got retired... Hakeem would probably be ringless like Ewing.

His entire career was made off the back of a 2 year span where the best player ever wasn't in the league.[/QUOTE]

That's a simplistic way to look at it. Starks was actually decent the first six games of the series. He put up 19/3/7/2 on 56% TS%. He was also an All-Star and All-Defensive 2nd Team that season. The Knicks also had an All-Star in Charles Oakley, who was also All-Defensive 1st Team and a DPOY vote getter.

And why isn't his prime GOAT caliber? He made it to the finals 3 times, winning 2 chips. Between 1986-95, he put up [B]29/12/3/4 on 54%[/B] in the playoffs. And you're saying Mike wasn't there for 2 years when he literally played in 1995. :lol

[QUOTE=tpols;14916592]And like for instance Kobe gets shit on for missing the playoffs in one year and getting beat as a 7 seed with an all time bad cast. People said well ... Kobe can't win without Shaq. Then they said he can't win without Pau. But 1995 Clyde Drexler was just as good if not better than Pau. Nobody ever brings that up. It's like Hakeem is immune to hate in a way other players weren't.[/QUOTE]

It’s because in the early to mid 2000s then Kobe fans were obnoxious and annoying as fvck. Jordan was the guy in Hakeem’s day so hakeem probably didn’t have fans like that.

The number one thing that brings hate to a player are his fans.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14916625]It’s because in the early to mid 2000s then Kobe fans were obnoxious and annoying as fvck. Jordan was the guy in Hakeem’s day so hakeem probably didn’t have fans like that.

The number one thing that brings hate to a player are his fans.[/QUOTE]
No better example of that than Xiao :lol

There were way more Kobe haters than fans of his back in the early 2000s. I was one of them... I didnt want him to beat the Nets when my state had a team.

Literally all I ever read from back then is hate. Can't win without Shaq. He's a rapist. Can't without Pau. Can't do this, can't do that.

I could name you 10x more haters of Kobe than his fans. Hakeem? Like OP showed never see anybody criticizing him. And Kobe won twice as much and at the end with similar help.

It's a wild contradiction.

[QUOTE=tpols;14916631]There were way more Kobe haters than fans of his back in the early 2000s. I was one of them... I didnt want him to beat the Nets when my state had a team.

iterally all I ever read from back then is hate. Can't win without Shaq. He's a rapist. Can't without Pau. Can't do this, can't do that.

I could name you 10x more haters of Kobe than his fans. Hakeem? Like OP showed never see anybody criticizing him. And Kobe won twice as much and at the end with similar help.

It's a wild contradiction.[/QUOTE]

No it really isn’t. Basketball fandom is an emotional thing by nature. Somebody popular is going to be polarizing. And people will hate because the emotional side of it. Hakeem likely just didn’t have that kind of draw.

There were no loud and obnoxious young kids shouting about him everywhere. Those kids all were in on Jordan. Those Jordan kids then became Kobe haters.

It has absolutely nothing to do with on court performance.

[QUOTE]
It has absolutely nothing to do with on court performance.
[/QUOTE]

That's the entire point of this thread. Perception not matching reality. Kobe did way more, yet a lot of yalls minds are so warped with emotional hate... frankly like bitches... that you won't acknowledge it.

[QUOTE]
Basketball fandom is an emotional thing by nature.
[/QUOTE]

And you JUST admitted that. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=tpols;14916633]That's the entire point of this thread. Perception not matching reality. Kobe did way more, yet a lot of yalls minds are so warped with emotional hate... frankly like bitches... that you won't acknowledge it.



And you JUST admitted that. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

What do you mean y’all?

It’s not an admission but a fact. Literally the definition of fandom

It has nothing to do with perception vs reality. It’s a matter of caring or not caring.

I think people don't blame his exits was because hakeem had those 2 amazing seasons and he almost always perform equal or better in the playoff relative to his RS.



Many players aren't like that. Like Curry...many times his performance drop in the playoff. Which is normal. Like in 2014, 2015, 2016.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14916598]Well, I didn't exclude his 2022 FMVP. I simply mentioned he has 1 FMVP whereas Hakeem has 2. And where did you get 28/10/8 from? In 2015, Steph put up 26/5/6 in the finals.

Iguodala got FMVP off of the strength of his defensive contribution. Not to mention, [B]he somehow had a slightly higher TS% than Steph during the series. [/B]And in the deciding game, Steph came up big, but overall they both were big contributors. Both guys dropped 25 points. I get there is an argument to be made about Steph winning the FMVP, but even if we were to give him that, then it would make them 2-2 in that category. Your original point was that he has accolades over Hakeem. This just isn't the case.[/QUOTE]


“somehow”

you mean because steph got doubled the entire series and shot on way more volume while iguodala had literally wide open looks?

c’mon man

Late 80's early 90's is arguably the greatest era in history. Definitely not a weak era.

As for not winning much, his teams were a dumpster fire in those years. He deserves some blame but not more than say KG in Minnesota.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14916641]“somehow”

you mean because steph got doubled the entire series and shot on way more volume while iguodala had literally wide open looks?

c’mon man[/QUOTE]

That's a fair point.