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[QUOTE=hold this L;14914562]There's 3-4 players at most that have the value of a super max. It is one of the worst additions to the NBA, it crushes the income that the rest of the "team" can actually earn.[/QUOTE]
Question: Do you think that Michael Jordan was a good owner?
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14914565]Do you think the Celtics governors are unaware of what Brown is being paid? That they made a mistake or that Bad Stevens is sneakily getting them to sign checks they don't see?[/QUOTE]
C'mon man. What's this line of questioning? They made the decision and like every idiot, they made it with ultimate confidence they made the right decision.
Do you think homeless people planned on being homeless? That they said "this decision right here will lead to me losing everything, but I'm going to make it anyway."
The purpose of the thread was to discuss the worthiness of Brown getting what he's getting and what he's worth. He's worth $65M to the Celtics just as Dogecoin is priceless to that future homeless person.
By my personal cost analysis as a fan, he's very risky. He's the ultimate "good" player destined to never be great. He will never make all NBA first team, but is paid as such. He will never start an all-star except for injury, but is paid as such. He will never be top 10 in jersey sales but is paid as such. I can go on. I have nothing personal against him. To answer the OP a second time, in a general sense, no, he's not worth his contact. He can only ever be worth his contact to the Celtics of they get whatever they're after with him. To any other team he's overpaid.
[QUOTE=beasted;14914692]C'mon man. What's this line of questioning? They made the decision and like every idiot, they made it with ultimate confidence they made the right decision.
Do you think homeless people planned on being homeless? That they said "this decision right here will lead to me losing everything, but I'm going to make it anyway."
The purpose of the thread was to discuss the worthiness of Brown getting what he's getting and what he's worth. He's worth $65M to the Celtics just as Dogecoin is priceless to that future homeless person.
By my personal cost analysis as a fan, he's very risky. He's the ultimate "good" player destined to never be great. He will never make all NBA first team, but is paid as such. He will never start an all-star except for injury, but is paid as such. He will never be top 10 in jersey sales but is paid as such. I can go on. I have nothing personal against him. To answer the OP a second time, in a general sense, no, he's not worth his contact. He can only ever be worth his contact to the Celtics of they get whatever they're after with him. To any other team he's overpaid.[/QUOTE]
You are comparing the retaining of a player that has been crucial to several trips to the conference finals to the mistakes that lead to homelessness. Your position is ridiculous.
Brown is having a playoff run that is at worst a true 1B to Tatum's 1A (and that's being generous to Tatum)
That's worth the amount of money he is being payed.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14914725]You are comparing the retaining of a player that has been crucial to several trips to the conference finals to the mistakes that lead to homelessness. Your position is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Each decision should live in a vacuum.
[QUOTE=beasted;14914866]Each decision should live in a vacuum.[/QUOTE]
Your post should be cleaned with a vacuum. The Celtics would be 0-2 in the conference finals right now without Jaylen Brown. You take him away from the Cs and put him on the Knicks and the Knicks are the #1 seed in the East. He is a crucial star player. The one season Tatum had to truly carry the team without Brown he had to go off for 50 just to get the team through the play-in and then had to go off again just to get one win off the Nets. The Celtics need Brown and the organization knows this. That's why he got paid. You don't haggle over a few million when you're trying to win a championship.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14914563]You pay players for what they will do not what they have done. Of course Riley won't want to hand Butler 60 mil a year when he's 36 when he's missing a ton of games and similar logic applies to Paul George except that unlike Butler you don't have postseason greatness to be grateful for so there's even less reason for a big payday. History tells us that these are guys that probably won't play 65 games.
I am bored with rehashing Irving's history. If you want to think there's no difference between what he did with/to the Nets and Brown helping the Celtics make conference finals five times that's your business.
But if you don't pay him supermax he is likely to feel slighted and may well decide he wants to find a team where he's the undisputed franchise player or that he has a better shot at a championship with a great big like Embiid, wants to go home to ATL. Any number of things could effect his decision if the Celtics don't show him that they value him at the highest level.
I am pointing out that he didn't decline to illustrate the flaw in making a big deal over whether or not he is AllNBA one particular year. Last season he was 2nd team. Is he any worse now or did his stats take a hit because he's surrounded by talent?
The idea that White is worth 40 mil while Brown is overpaid is amusing to me. Moving on.
I didn't say they took discounts. I don't know who would be offering them a lot more as free agents. What I do know is that Brown has no reason to care what they get paid while his agent negotiates max dollars.
You have this strange idea that the Celtics are hurting for money. Groesbeck paid 360 mil for the team. It's currently worth 4.7 billion with annual revenue of 443 million. And that's likely just how they report their numbers for tax purposes.[/QUOTE]
Fine we’ll go past half the guys I went over. You still ignored the other half. The general point is you can haggle and the star doesn’t have to feel slighted. It’s a negotiation and part of the business and I gave you countless examples of others. You say he’s the franchise player but no that’s not true, Tatum is the franchise player.
When I say all-nba lvl I just mean someone who is a lock but not mvp lvl. It doesn’t matter if he made it this year to my point is he’s a borderline guy in the top 20 range. Mitchell and Booker are
Examples of guys who are locks every year. Even guys like lebron/kd are at that lvl not mvp lvl but all-nba locks. If you think jaylen is at the lvl of lebron or kd then fair but I think you’re overrating him then.
Porzingis absolutely took a discount. Mil clippers etc would’ve extended jrue for more money if they had him. White is better than those 2 yea him deserving 40 is perfectly reasonable. Jaylen makes like 55 his first yr, I’m asking for it to be like 48 more than white no logical inconsistency. You’ve greatly underrated white the past year or two too even tbf lumping him with the other members of supporting cast. His agent shouldn’t care but the team does while they negotiate. If they tried to offer him less fair enough maybe he wouldnt take it.
No need to put words in my mouth to win an argument. I said I’m not worried about Celtics financial situation or how much money the Celtics make. That’s irrelevant. It’s because of the 2nd apron and cap rules they can’t pay what he’ll get in fa. Subreddit fir Celtics discussed it they can’t keep hauser next offseason. Denver literally couldn’t give brown more than a certain amount it wasn’t a lack of money issue.
[QUOTE=Carbine;14914748]Brown is having a playoff run that is at worst a true 1B to Tatum's 1A (and that's being generous to Tatum)
That's worth the amount of money he is being payed.[/QUOTE]
Derrick been the best player this run however. 18ppg on elite efficiency and does everything on offense elite shooter good playmaker even a heavy screener for Tatum/brown. and he’s their best on ball/help defender.
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14914983]Fine we’ll go past half the guys I went over. You still ignored the other half. The general point is you can haggle and the star doesn’t have to feel slighted. It’s a negotiation and part of the business and I gave you countless examples of others. You say he’s the franchise player but no that’s not true, Tatum is the franchise player.
When I say all-nba lvl I just mean someone who is a lock but not mvp lvl. It doesn’t matter if he made it this year to my point is he’s a borderline guy in the top 20 range. Mitchell and Booker are
Examples of guys who are locks every year. Even guys like lebron/kd are at that lvl not mvp lvl but all-nba locks. If you think jaylen is at the lvl of lebron or kd then fair but I think you’re overrating him then.
Porzingis absolutely took a discount. Mil clippers etc would’ve extended jrue for more money if they had him. White is better than those 2 yea him deserving 40 is perfectly reasonable. Jaylen makes like 55 his first yr, I’m asking for it to be like 48 more than white no logical inconsistency. You’ve greatly underrated white the past year or two too even tbf lumping him with the other members of supporting cast. His agent shouldn’t care but the team does while they negotiate. If they tried to offer him less fair enough maybe he wouldnt take it.
No need to put words in my mouth to win an argument. I said I’m not worried about Celtics financial situation or how much money the Celtics make. That’s irrelevant. It’s because of the 2nd apron and cap rules they can’t pay what he’ll get in fa. Subreddit fir Celtics discussed it they can’t keep hauser next offseason. Denver literally couldn’t give brown more than a certain amount it wasn’t a lack of money issue.[/QUOTE]
If White can get 40 mil per from someone then good for him but with Holiday and Porzingis getting 30 per I don't see it. It's inconsistent that you think the Celtics should have tried to pay Brown 7mil per less because of what other teams could offer but somehow giving White 40 per makes perfect sense. Teams are going to be offering White 40 mil per? Who?
Brown wouldn't have to feel slighted by haggling but all the statements that he made leading up to the extensions showed that he definitely would be. The Celtics had to deal with the reality and the reality currently has them up 2-0 in the conference finals. Your position could easily have cost them the best wing duo in the NBA and broken up a contender. No thanks.
All that talk about luxury tax aprons is you being concerned with Grousbeck's money. Denver made a financial decision regarding certain roleplayers that may have cost them a shot at the title this year. That's their business. Doesn't mean the Celtics have to operate the same way.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915015] Teams are going to be offering White 40 mil per? Who?
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't be surprised if the Spurs did. I don't think it would be as high as 40 but probably higher than what anyone else could afford to offer. Wemby's gonna be on a rookie contract (12-17M a year) up until 2027 and White would be the perfect vet to have on that team. They can afford to overpay for White & grab an All-star in a trade if they choose to part ways with some of their picks & players who did not fit that great with Victor last year.
So you think a rebuilding team is going to pay 40 mil per for a guy that didn't make the allstar team? Because I don't see how that's sensible. He's 9 or 10 years older than Wembanyama and if they wanted him badly enough to pay 40 mil per they wouldn't have traded him to the Celtics to begin with.
Like I said, the Spurs can afford to overpay for an elite role player because of Wemby's contract if they have the space for it. White has arguably been the best player on the Celtics in these Playoffs because of how efficient he's been.
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14915039]Like I said, the Spurs can afford to overpay for an elite role player because of Wemby's contract if they have the space for it. White has arguably been the best player on the Celtics in these Playoffs because of how efficient he's been.[/QUOTE]
Tatum is averaging 25 points 10 rebounds and 5.6 assists. Brown is averaging 25 points 6.5 rebounds and hit a potentially historic clutch shot in Game 1 of the conference finals and also got the clutch steal that led to that clutch shot. Derrick White's 18 points and 4 assists are a good contribution but he's not on that level.
And again: San Antonio traded White away. They traded him away so that they could offer him 40 nil per to be 30+ years old on their rebuilding team? You guys will just say anything.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915041]Tatum is averaging 25 points 10 rebounds and 5.6 assists. Brown is averaging 25 points 6.5 rebounds and hit a potentially historic clutch shot in Game 1 of the conference finals and also got the clutch steal that led to that clutch shot. Derrick White's 18 points and 4 assists are a good contribution but he's not on that level.[/QUOTE]
White leads them in WS, BPM & VORP in the POs. He's far more efficient than Tatum. He's shooting 8.4 threes per game and making 43.6% of them. His defense is great. He basically never turns the ball over either.
There's definitely a case to be made. Also, if you're fine with paying Jaylen Brown 60+ Million a year, I think White is worth at least half of that figure, and the Celtics can't afford to match that offer.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915043]And again: San Antonio traded White away. They traded him away so that they could offer him 40 nil per to be 30+ years old on their rebuilding team? You guys will just say anything.[/QUOTE]
They traded him away to tank for Wemby. They got Wemby now. I'm sure White wasn't interested to be on a tanking team either. Both sides would be happy to re-unite I'm sure. He makes so much sense in a Manu role on a team led by Victor.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915034]So you think a rebuilding team is going to pay 40 mil per for a guy that didn't make the allstar team? Because I don't see how that's sensible. He's 9 or 10 years older than Wembanyama and if they wanted him badly enough to pay 40 mil per they wouldn't have traded him to the Celtics to begin with.[/QUOTE]
A team like the Spurs would be completely justified giving him 40 million. By the end of that 40 people will be making 65 or 70. 95 million a year is coming in the near future. 40 for white now will be like the 30 for Conley was once we realized people we never heard of would get 25. Went from the biggest contract in history to being completely normal in about 45 minutes.
Plus a guy like white is probably never going to make an all NBA team, which would force your hand to make him a $400 million super max guy or have him walk. He’s comparable to Vanvleet right now who makes more than 40 before the cap explodes.
Rookie extensions are up to $260 million. You can pay 40 something million to your third best player right now and have a talented lineup. You lock one in at 40 as the cap rises?
Someone like Scotty Barnes is going to be making $78 million pretty soon and it won’t be an outlier. It’s gonna take expansion and larger rosters to have enough players in the league to keep the top guys from making 100 million during Whites career. Do the math on built-in 10% raises from the cap smoothing design to prevent the one year $40 million raise they would have to do without it. Start at 140 and add 10% a year from that.
i’m talking about adding 14 million. Then 15+. Then 17. And all the money that doesn’t go to raising the cap immediately just gets rolled forward to cover future years it might not rise. So we’re looking at long term gigantic yearly raises. You lock him in at 40 flat and not a percentage of the cap? He gets cheaper every year till the end he’s 30% cheaper relatively speaking.
It’s what so many people don’t realize. The new rights deal being more than double was foreseen and the extra money was rolled forward on purpose to ensure giant but manageable raises. The league and owners are going to make a lot more money than the CBA will allow them to pay the players immediately. They just have to roll it forward and pay it to the union eventually. It eliminates any possible downside.
The owners don’t give a **** about salaries because they come out of a well of money deeper than they can even pay out. Players agreed to steady raises and no risk of cutbacks and owners have long term manageable costs they can predict and control. Any perceived mistakes can just be absorbed by cap increases and minimized.
A 40 million guy you might prefer to pay 30 isn’t even a difference worth caring about to them anymore.
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14915050]White leads them in WS, BPM & VORP in the POs. He's far more efficient than Tatum. He's shooting 8.4 threes per game and making 43.6% of them. His defense is great. He basically never turns the ball over either.
There's definitely a case to be made. Also, if you're fine with paying Jaylen Brown 60+ Million a year, I think White is worth at least half of that figure, and the Celtics can't afford to match that offer.[/QUOTE] The Celtics are beating teams by double- digits with regulatory this postseason and you are bringing up "value over replacement" as of it matters. Jaylen Brown is the one that had stepped up most in these two conference Finals and the only Celtic that they don't win without. He's the guy that could win EC playoff mvp over Tatum, not White. If the Celtics make the Finals the play that everyone tenderness and the biggest play is going to be Brown stealing the win away from the Pacers. Nothing else comes close...and then he followed it up with 40 points in the next game.
I am fine with White getting a billion dollars. I think he should go for a much money as possible. I just don't think a team should be paying him more than Holiday and Porzingis. If he gets more, good for him. None of that means that Brown shouldn't go for his money. When the time comes to negotiate I suspect the Celtics will be signing him to the correct deal.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14915083]A team like the Spurs would be completely justified giving him 40 million. By the end of that 40 people will be making 65 or 70. 95 million a year is coming in the near future. 40 for white now will be like the 30 for Conley was once we realized people we never heard of would get 25. Went from the biggest contract in history to being completely normal in about 45 minutes.
Plus a guy like white is probably never going to make an all NBA team, which would force your hand to make him a $400 million super max guy or have him walk. He’s comparable to Vanvleet right now who makes more than 40 before the cap explodes.
Rookie extensions are up to $260 million. You can pay 40 something million to your third best player right now and have a talented lineup. You lock one in at 40 as the cap rises?
Someone like Scotty Barnes is going to be making $78 million pretty soon and it won’t be an outlier. It’s gonna take expansion and larger rosters to have enough players in the league to keep the top guys from making 100 million during Whites career. Do the math on built-in 10% raises from the cap smoothing design to prevent the one year $40 million raise they would have to do without it. Start at 140 and add 10% a year from that.
i’m talking about adding 14 million. Then 15+. Then 17. And all the money that doesn’t go to raising the cap immediately just gets rolled forward to cover future years it might not rise. So we’re looking at long term gigantic yearly raises. You lock him in at 40 flat and not a percentage of the cap? He gets cheaper every year till the end he’s 30% cheaper relatively speaking.
It’s what so many people don’t realize. The new rights deal being more than double was foreseen and the extra money was rolled forward on purpose to ensure giant but manageable raises. The league and owners are going to make a lot more money than the CBA will allow them to pay the players immediately. They just have to roll it forward and pay it to the union eventually. It eliminates any possible downside.
The owners don’t give a **** about salaries because they come out of a well of money deeper than they can even pay out. Players agreed to steady raises and no risk of cutbacks and owners have long term manageable costs they can predict and control. Any perceived mistakes can just be absorbed by cap increases and minimized.
A 40 million guy you might prefer to pay 30 isn’t even a difference worth caring about to them anymore.[/QUOTE]
If all this is true then great. Just more reason not to be concerned with Brown getting his deal.
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14915051]They traded him away to tank for Wemby. They got Wemby now. I'm sure White wasn't interested to be on a tanking team either. Both sides would be happy to re-unite I'm sure. He makes so much sense in a Manu role on a team led by Victor.[/QUOTE]
He's 10 years older than Wembanyama, if they want a cow whose primes are a match he doesn't fit. Him going back there is only possible if he hits free agency which only happens if the Celtics can't agree to a deal. And if that's the case there's a high likelihood that the Celtics trade him, but it's more likely that they figure out what the right number is and he spends the rest of his prime competing for championships. The only thing better about San Antonio is the weather.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14914932]Your post should be cleaned with a vacuum. The Celtics would be 0-2 in the conference finals right now without Jaylen Brown. [B]You take him away from the Cs and put him on the Knicks and the Knicks are the #1 seed in the East[/B]. He is a crucial star player. The one season Tatum had to truly carry the team without Brown he had to go off for 50 just to get the team through the play-in and then had to go off again just to get one win off the Nets. The Celtics need Brown and the organization knows this. That's why he got paid. You don't haggle over a few million when you're trying to win a championship.[/QUOTE]
Such a poor rebuttal since you know it doesn't work that way. Add an allstar for free to almost any playoff team and they are #1 in their conference. Add Brunson the Heat and they embarrass the Celtics.
Can Jaylen Brown be the #1 player with 1 other allstar and lead that team to a title? He's already proven for multiple years now he can't.
Can he be an integral piece to a stacked team like this iteration of the Celtics? Yes. But that doesn't justify his salary. As I said multiple posts ago, he can only be worth his contact to the Celtics.
[QUOTE]
Can Jaylen Brown be the #1 player with 1 other allstar and lead that team to a title? He's already proven for multiple years now he can't.
[/QUOTE]
not doing something isn’t proving you can’t. Plenty of people who did exactly what you’re asking for didn’t do it for over a decade until they did. They weren’t proving they can’t while they weren’t doing it. I bet I would miss an extra point kick 58 times in a row, but that wouldn’t prove it was impossible for me to make one.
Not that your question even seems reasonable. At the salary he’s on his team can still afford multiple additional All-Stars. So why would he need to prove he can win with only one to justify it?
Tatum is gonna sign for like 334 million dollars. Brown having the second biggest deal on his team sounds about right.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14915114]not doing something isn’t proving you can’t. Plenty of people who did exactly what you’re asking for didn’t do it for over a decade until they did. They weren’t proving they can’t while they weren’t doing it. I bet I would miss an extra point kick 58 times in a row, but that wouldn’t prove it was impossible for me to make one.
Not that your question even seems reasonable. At the salary he’s on his team can still afford multiple additional All-Stars. So why would he need to prove he can win with only one to justify it?
Tatum is gonna sign for like 334 million dollars. Brown having the second biggest deal on his team sounds about right.[/QUOTE]
You've made some points, but the most important point is he hasn't even been the best player over those years sans maybe this season.
So the theory of "#1" is completely valid. #2 is the best case scenario.
[QUOTE=beasted;14915116]You've made some points, but the most important point is he hasn't even been the best player over those years sans maybe this season.
So the theory of "#1" is completely valid. #2 is the best case scenario.[/QUOTE]
Why would he need to be? Your pay is not determined by your ranking. Is determined by who comes up first to get paid. Fans never stop with this. You weren’t paid by your status in the league or historically. An ever rising cap forces ever larger contracts, and whoever signs First gets the money And then whoever signs after that will get more. Giannis signed the biggest contract in NBA history in 2020 at 228 million. And just one season later the Nuggets gave MPJ a contract That depending on incentives can get to 207. He had started 62 games in his career at that point. And he joined like 6 players ever with a deal that size.
And the only reason you don’t hear about it is because it was immediately the new standard and we already have 3 rookies from 2020 who have signed deals that will pay them 260 million and Bane signed for 207.
highest paid isn’t a ranking of ability. It’s just a marker of who signed when. Three quarterbacks nobody has as elite are signing for $50 million this season. The list of quarterbacks to be the highest paid ever is hilarious. But the records get beaten every year or two because, it is a constant climb.
None of this is a direct ability to pay thing but fans will not stop acting like it is. There is structure. You get paid the most when you go first. And next in line gets more. And then more. And more. It isn’t an ongoing evaluation.
It’s just the line. You get to the front you get yours. If you stay healthy and out of jail, you don’t even have to improve to get a massive raise when you get back to the front. They aren’t evaluating each person in the line. The person at the front gets a scoop. And the scoop gets bigger and bigger.
Until networks and streaming services don’t need live sports for credibility the serving dish keeps getting bigger. Stay healthy enough to get back to the front of the line you will get a bigger scoop than the last guy.
The cafeteria doesn’t care anymore. They quite literally have more food than their contract with the diners will allow them to serve. They bump the spoon up by 10% every off-season and still have to freeze some for next week. Nobody but fans gives a **** about this money.
[QUOTE=beasted;14915106]Such a poor rebuttal since you know it doesn't work that way. Add an allstar for free to almost any playoff team and they are #1 in their conference. Add Brunson the Heat and they embarrass the Celtics.
Can Jaylen Brown be the #1 player with 1 other allstar and lead that team to a title? He's already proven for multiple years now he can't.
Can he be an integral piece to a stacked team like this iteration of the Celtics? Yes. But that doesn't justify his salary. As I said multiple posts ago, he can only be worth his contact to the Celtics.[/QUOTE] The Knicks will have the flexibility to make a trade happen and Philly will have Mac cap space. The Celtics without JB would not be well equipped to deal with Brown, Maxey and Embiid. What justification to pay him is needed beyond him being a star that they can't win a ring without while he could make a playoff opponent a Contender? Letting him walk would be stupid.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915125]The Knicks will have the flexibility to make a trade happen and Philly will have Mac cap space. The Celtics without JB would not be well equipped to deal with Brown, Maxey and Embiid. What justification to pay him is needed beyond him being a star that they can't win a ring without while he could make a playoff opponent a Contender? Letting him walk would be stupid.[/QUOTE]
when the choices maybe win a title or definitely don’t I don’t even know how it’s a discussion. When it’s a team on the verge of a rebuild or may be needing one at least there’s the discussion to be had about if you blow up and start over. If you’re trying to win a championship now, you’re just Pay and hope for the best.
The Nuggets certainly didn’t give Porter Junior a contract he earned by starting 60 something games in his life. But they thought maybe they could win. The one win is worth all the rest. If he never gets where they wanted…the ring makes it worth it.
If your owner isn’t pro tanking….you just pay market value. And market value for an all nba guy is a couple metric **** tons. Either Pay it all or rebuild. Both decent options. But there isn’t really a third one I can think of. Celtics were way too good to rebuild.
It’s only really a question if you are torn between those two options. The Celtics being so close makes the choice for them.
If they win one it doesn’t matter if he makes 96 million. And if they don’t they can’t be clowned for going for it.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915015]If White can get 40 mil per from someone then good for him but with Holiday and Porzingis getting 30 per I don't see it. It's inconsistent that you think the Celtics should have tried to pay Brown 7mil per less because of what other teams could offer but somehow giving White 40 per makes perfect sense. Teams are going to be offering White 40 mil per? Who?
Brown wouldn't have to feel slighted by haggling but all the statements that he made leading up to the extensions showed that he definitely would be. The Celtics had to deal with the reality and the reality currently has them up 2-0 in the conference finals. Your position could easily have cost them the best wing duo in the NBA and broken up a contender. No thanks.
All that talk about luxury tax aprons is you being concerned with Grousbeck's money. Denver made a financial decision regarding certain roleplayers that may have cost them a shot at the title this year. That's their business. Doesn't mean the Celtics have to operate the same way.[/QUOTE]
Yea I think you’re underrating him. white is clearly a better guy in terms of impact and age and health than jrue or porzingis. Ok fair enough about jaylen if he wanted the max only. Celtics had no choice then.
You’re still not understanding the cap situation. Denver wasn’t allowed to pay Bruce more than a certain amount. Had nothing to do with owners being cheap. The kings have the same problem with Malik monk they can’t give him more than 19mil/yr. The Celtics are same with hauser cannot give him more than 140% of an average nba salary for an extension
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14915129]when the choices maybe win a title or definitely don’t I don’t even know how it’s a discussion. When it’s a team on the verge of a rebuild or may be needing one at least there’s the discussion to be had about if you blow up and start over. If you’re trying to win a championship now, you’re just Pay and hope for the best.
The Nuggets certainly didn’t give Porter Junior a contract he earned by starting 60 something games in his life. But they thought maybe they could win. The one win is worth all the rest. If he never gets where they wanted…the ring makes it worth it.
If your owner isn’t pro tanking….you just pay market value. And market value for an all nba guy is a couple metric **** tons. Either Pay it all or rebuild. Both decent options. But there isn’t really a third one I can think of. Celtics were way too good to rebuild.
It’s only really a question if you are torn between those two options. The Celtics being so close makes the choice for them.
If they win one it doesn’t matter if he makes 96 million. And if they don’t they can’t be clowned for going for it.[/QUOTE]
You can haggle sometimes that’s the 3rd option but rmwg said it wasn’t on table. Sabonis was all nba these 2 years didn’t get the full max he was eligible for which was only a 30% max too not
the 35% supermax. Was only a few mil but that could help kings with roster move down the line
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915125]The Knicks will have the flexibility to make a trade happen and Philly will have Mac cap space. The Celtics without JB would not be well equipped to deal with Brown, Maxey and Embiid. What justification to pay him is needed beyond him being a star that they can't win a ring without while he could make a playoff opponent a Contender? Letting him walk would be stupid.[/QUOTE]
This is not a logical point. If Philly wasn't a threat with Embiid, Harden, Harris, Maxey, and a fleet of solid role players, what makes them suddenly a juggernaut with Embiid, Brown, Maxey, whatever they can fit under the Room Exception ($7.8M), and a bunch of minimum contracts (because they'd have no ability to retain the rights on anyone else)?
To me it's very evident you value Brown's impact equivalent to a top 8 player if you think that way, which would be an unfounded belief.
Knicks have no ability to sign or obtain Brown without sign and trade assistance from Boston, just like many other playoff teams looking to get better, so I'm not sure where you're going there.
The basis of your argument appears to continue to ride on the fact that he makes Boston a better team than not having him, which is such a common sense point it doesn't need to be stated.
Again, the cost analysis of whether a player is worth what you're paying them is based on marketing/ filing seats/money- making components and then winning components in a nutshell.
I think Brown is solid from the popularity angle but not great. From the winning angle it's more or less the same. He's a very good player in terms of elevating an already solid team to contender status, but not a great in that he will carry a team to wins over a better opponent on paper. He's just a "good" not a "great". Right now his contact hasn't become and impediment to fielding a good team, and he's most valuable on a cap locked contender like the Celtics. But it's easy to see how it carries significant risk to directly contribute to a collapse of the Cs, as well as he'd be a bad contract to a non- cap locked team trying to build itself to contender status.
Replace Dejounte Murray with Brown making $24M more, and Atlanta instantly becomes the most toxic payroll in the league. Hopefully it's plain as daylight that while Brown is better, he's not $24M better from any value proposition one could imagine vs Murray.
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14915142]Yea I think you’re underrating him. white is clearly a better guy in terms of impact and age and health than jrue or porzingis. Ok fair enough about jaylen if he wanted the max only. Celtics had no choice then.
You’re still not understanding the cap situation. Denver wasn’t allowed to pay Bruce more than a certain amount. Had nothing to do with owners being cheap. The kings have the same problem with Malik monk they can’t give him more than 19mil/yr. The Celtics are same with hauser cannot give him more than 140% of an average nba salary for an extension[/QUOTE]
So you can continue to obsess over whether or not saving a few mil on Brown will make Hauser hard to retain if you want but I'm pretty sure Brown was and is the priority. Hauser can be dealt with when the time comes.
[QUOTE=beasted;14915144]This is not a logical point. If Philly wasn't a threat with Embiid, Harden, Harris, Maxey, and a fleet of solid role players, what makes them suddenly a juggernaut with Embiid, Brown, Maxey, whatever they can fit under the Room Exception ($7.8M), and a bunch of minimum contracts (because they'd have no ability to retain the rights on anyone else)?
To me it's very evident you value Brown's impact equivalent to a top 8 player if you think that way, which would be an unfounded belief.
Knicks have no ability to sign or obtain Brown without sign and trade assistance from Boston, just like many other playoff teams looking to get better, so I'm not sure where you're going there.
The basis of your argument appears to continue to ride on the fact that he makes Boston a better team than not having him, which is such a common sense point it doesn't need to be stated.
Again, the cost analysis of whether a player is worth what you're paying them is based on marketing/ filing seats/money- making components and then winning components in a nutshell.
I think Brown is solid from the popularity angle but not great. From the winning angle it's more or less the same. He's a very good player in terms of elevating an already solid team to contender status, but not a great in that he will carry a team to wins over a better opponent on paper. He's just a "good" not a "great". Right now his contact hasn't become and impediment to fielding a good team, and he's most valuable on a cap locked contender like the Celtics. But it's easy to see how it carries significant risk to directly contribute to a collapse of the Cs, as well as he'd be a bad contract to a non- cap locked team trying to build itself to contender status.
Replace Dejounte Murray with Brown making $24M more, and Atlanta instantly becomes the most toxic payroll in the league. Hopefully it's plain as daylight that while Brown is better, he's not $24M better from any value proposition one could imagine vs Murray.[/QUOTE]
I see the problem: you probably just think Brown sucks. There will be no reasoning here.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915146]I see the problem: you probably just think Brown sucks. There will be no reasoning here.[/QUOTE]
That's really what you took away? Try again.
I've added enough here, but here is fruit for thought for the Brown advocates:
What makes Brown worth the supermax over just the max extension he was eligible to sign?
It's likely to be a lot of thumb twiddling on any answer to that question.
[QUOTE=beasted;14915147]That's really what you took away? Try again.[/QUOTE]
You think an allstar that is averaging 23 on 50% with excellent defense that has averaged 27 efficiently just last season would make no difference for Philly (that's where I stopped reading). You don't think he's a star. The end.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915145]So you can continue to obsess over whether or not saving a few mil on Brown will make Hauser hard to retain if you want but I'm pretty sure Brown was and is the priority. Hauser can be dealt with when the time comes.[/QUOTE]
oh ik brown is more important than hauser. Just saying not having one role guy couldve cost denver a title this year. However yes I think it was presumptuous for you to assume because boston won 64 games they're set for the next few years. It just hasnt worked that way in history even as talented as boston is. If owner doesnt keep the starting 5 together for more than 2 years(end of porzingis deal) then we can really have a discussion about brown's supermax being worth but we'll see. I doubt it tbf plan seems to keep starting 5 together for jrue's whole contract and bolster bench through draft and vet mins. Possibly trade jrue at the end of his deal for another star
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915149]You think an allstar that is averaging 23 on 50% with excellent defense that has averaged 27 efficiently just last season [B]would make no difference for Philly [/B](that's where I stopped reading). You don't think he's a star. The end.[/QUOTE]
Yup, that's exactly what i said. Enjoy your memorial day weekend, folks.
[QUOTE=ImKobe;14915050]White leads them in WS, BPM & VORP in the POs. He's far more efficient than Tatum. He's shooting 8.4 threes per game and making 43.6% of them. His defense is great. He basically never turns the ball over either.
There's definitely a case to be made. Also, if you're fine with paying Jaylen Brown 60+ Million a year, I think White is worth at least half of that figure, and the Celtics can't afford to match that offer.[/QUOTE]
he's been by far the best celtic in playoffs by epm too and was 2nd best during regular season after tatum. Small sample but it's one of the best predictive impact stats out there. 18ppg is not 24ppg but he's more efficient and a better playmaker shooter and defender than the J's.
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14915150]oh ik brown is more important than hauser. Just saying not having one role guy couldve cost denver a title this year. However yes I think it was presumptuous for you to assume because boston won 64 games they're set for the next few years. It just hasnt worked that way in history even as talented as boston is. If owner doesnt keep the starting 5 together for more than 2 years(end of porzingis deal) then we can really have a discussion about brown's supermax being worth but we'll see. I doubt it tbf plan seems to keep starting 5 together for jrue's whole contract and bolster bench through draft and vet mins. Possibly trade jrue at the end of his deal for another star[/QUOTE]
Uf the Celtics don't win a championship over the next few years big change is coming regardless. They have a chance to win right now with JB. They're going for it. Whatever Hauser gets paid in a few years will be what he gets, if it's in Boston, great, if he has to go elsewhere, best of luck, oh well.
[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14915155]Uf the Celtics don't win a championship over the next few years big change is coming regardless. They have a chance to win right now with JB. They're going for it. Whatever Hauser gets paid in a few years will be what he gets, if it's in Boston, great, if he has to go elsewhere, best of luck, oh well.[/QUOTE]
they could win this year and be in contention next few years. Stevens does like making changes but this starting lineup is stacked and seems hard to improve outside trading jrue when he ages
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14915143]You can haggle sometimes that’s the 3rd option but rmwg said it wasn’t on table. Sabonis was all nba these 2 years didn’t get the full max he was eligible for which was only a 30% max too not
the 35% supermax. Was only a few mil but that could help kings with roster move down the line[/QUOTE]
Sure. Getting someone to work for you for less than market value is always smart. You just can’t assume the option will be available. Even people who like going to work don’t like to see somebody they consider equal or worse than them having a bunch of extra money.
I often see fans make the argument that once you’re rich, it doesn’t matter if you get a few million more next time but that’s just poor people trying to apply a standard these guys don’t live by. They are a lot like us. You don’t just get rich and stop being greedy. You get rich and you start having ambitions you previously never dreamed of.
Another factor….Jaylen Brown is A vice president of the players union. He is somebody in the room for big business decisions. Union officials always want to push salaries higher. It’s not as bad as the NFL where every top guy gets pressure from the union to set a new benchmark at every opportunity because of the structured nature of nba deals…but a union guy giving a big hometeam discount also wouldn’t send the right message.
Hes supposed to get all his money and establish that letting the benchmarks gets you all your money.
Wrong guy to talk into taking less. He would probably see it as a greater responsibility not to establish that you hit the metrics and standards and still don’t get paid.