Did the Heatles underachieve?

[QUOTE=dankok8;14930474]Of course Rondo is not as good as CP3 offensively. That's doesn't make him overrated though.

Ben Taylor referred to "Rondo assists" which are assists without leverage. Because he's not a great scoring threat, he doesn't put pressure on the defense and draw defenders so he's making mostly basic passes that don't always lead to open shots. Better scorers get their teammates more open shots. That's all fine and dandy. The logic checks out.

However, those Celtics teams did improve offensively in the playoffs which coincided with Rondo becoming more aggressive as a scorer.

Celtics 2010-2012: -1.5 rORtg in the RS --> +0.1 rORtg in the PS
Rondo 2010-2012: 12.2/10.8 in the RS --> 16.0/10.3 in the PS

I would say that in the RS, Garnett was by far their most important player but in the PS, it's much closer and Rondo looks like a star in terms of impact. Not CP3 level but like top 15-20 player.[/QUOTE]
Rondo's efficiency in those playoffs was absolutely atrocious, you should know better than to use such a small sample size and attribute it to someone scoring ~15 PPG on ~50% TS.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14930475]There have been like, 10s of thousands of NBA players. Rondo is not the most overrated player in history just because the team didn't impress you in some random stat. Not when there are horror stories of things like Ben Simmons scoring a single point in a playoff game. No, one of the best defensive guards who was among the league leaders if not the league leader in assists is nowhere near that discussion if the person talking about it is at all serious. In the playoffs Rondo has had a number of memorable performances. Was the third-best player in the postseason for a Laker Championship. You don't have to like him but it was a silly statement.[/QUOTE]
It's not a random stat, it measures offensive efficiency for a team. How is Ben Simmons overrated if being one of the league leaders in assist and one of the best defensive guards precludes you from being overrated? That's inconsistent.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14930479]Rondo's efficiency in those playoffs was absolutely atrocious, you should know better than to use such a small sample size and attribute it to someone scoring ~15 PPG on ~50% TS.[/QUOTE]

Three consecutive playoffs (52 games) isn't a small sample. His efficiency was rough but he spearheaded their offense. If he had 60 %TS he would be CP3 level but 50 %TS doesn't mean he's horrible.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14930480]It's not a random stat, it measures offensive efficiency for a team. How is Ben Simmons overrated if being one of the league leaders in assist and one of the best defensive guards precludes you from being overrated? That's inconsistent.[/QUOTE]
What part of "one point playoff game" do you not understand? Rondo generally performed well in the playoffs whereas Simmons has been a definite failure. Rondo's team not impressing offensively while still posting winning records when his best teammates were all declining doesn't make him the most overrated player ever. The hyperbole can't be justified.

[QUOTE=dankok8;14930483]Three consecutive playoffs (52 games) isn't a small sample. His efficiency was rough but he spearheaded their offense. If he had 60 %TS he would be CP3 level but 50 %TS doesn't mean he's horrible.[/QUOTE]
50 TS% on middling volume does mean he's horrible at scoring though, I never said he was horrible overall.

Why are you using three different playoff runs and attributing it all to Rondo taking more shots when he didn't even do that remotely efficiently? That's illogical. A more likely explanation is having guys like Pierce, Ray Allen and KG is useful against tough playoff defenses and they may have coasted in the regular season due to their age.

Seriously, Rondo's playoff scoring was really bad in that time frame.

2010: 15.8 PTS in 40.6 MPG on 50.4 TS%
2011: 14.0 PTS in 38.3 MPG on 50.9 TS%
2012: 17.3 PTS on 42.6 MPG on 50.5 TS%

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14930490]What part of "one point playoff game" do you not understand? Rondo generally performed well in the playoffs whereas Simmons has been a definite failure. Rondo's team not impressing offensively while still posting winning records when his best teammates were all declining doesn't make him the most overrated player ever. The hyperbole can't be justified.[/QUOTE]
Rondo scored 2 points in a playoff game with the Celtics in the year they won a ring lol. Ben was fine in the playoffs for the most part, he just didn't have the supporting cast (relative to the league) Rondo did. You're focusing on ONE game, but Ben for his career averages 13.9 PPG in the playoffs. No one is saying Ben is a good scorer, but 2 PPG isn't the norm for him.

It’s hard to call 4 straight finals with 2 titles underachieving. I don’t care who you are, that’s an impressive 4 year span.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14930195]They should have won in 2011, but they took care of business otherwise. They had no real shot in 2014, that team was ravaged by injuries and [B][U]age[/U][/B].[/QUOTE]

Age? You mean 32 year old Wade, 29 year olds Bosh and Lebron vs 38 year old Duncan, 36 year old Manu and 31 year old Parker? LOL.

They ran into a BUZZSAW - playing practically perfect/peak basketball at the right time.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14930493]Rondo scored 2 points in a playoff game with the Celtics in the year they won a ring lol. Ben was fine in the playoffs for the most part, he just didn't have the supporting cast (relative to the league) Rondo did. You're focusing on ONE game, but Ben for his career averages 13.9 PPG in the playoffs. No one is saying Ben is a good scorer, but 2 PPG isn't the norm for him.[/QUOTE]Rondo averaged 10 points for the Cs when they won a ring. He was a roleplayer, a fact that you really ought to be aware of, so a low-scoring game is not as big of a deal as when it comes from a repeated All-Star that averaged 16 as the second best player on his team. No one was saying 20, 21 year-old Rondo was a star player. You really don't know that? Someone has to be rated highly to be overrated.

Poor postseason performance was very normal for Simmons. That final playoff series vs Atlanta is almost legendary.

[QUOTE=rmt;14930495]Age? You mean 32 year old Wade, 29 year olds Bosh and Lebron vs 38 year old Duncan, 36 year old Manu and 31 year old Parker? LOL.

They ran into a BUZZSAW - playing practically perfect/peak basketball at the right time.[/QUOTE]players age differently. 33 year old Wade was done as any semblance of a star player while Lebron at age 33 was arguably the best version of himself. And it’s not like the Spurs relied on TD, Manu and Parker the way Miami relied on their big 3, the Spurs had the goat coach(Spo wasn’t what he is now), Leonard and young solid role players like Green, Mills, Bellinelli. They blew the Miami role players out of the water.

They were 1 single miracle play away from winning only 1 title... had the GOAT choke (2011)... and the biggest blowout loss in Finals history to seal their reign. (2014)

Overall Miami had a losing Finals win loss record, and massive negative Finals point differential.

All that after projecting THEMSELVES... not the media or others, straight from the horses mouth that they'd be a Bill Russell 5+ rings level dynasty.

So you tell me.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14930497]Rondo averaged 10 points for the Cs when they won a ring. He was a roleplayer, a fact that you really ought to be aware of, so a low-scoring game is not as big of a deal as when it comes from a repeated All-Star that averaged 16 as the second best player on his team. No one was saying 20, 21 year-old Rondo was a star player. You really don't know that? Someone has to be rated highly to be overrated.

Poor postseason performance was very normal for Simmons. That final playoff series vs Atlanta is almost legendary.[/QUOTE]
Simmons was never a high scorer either, he's actually probably what Rondo would look like if he was 6'10, it's weird you like one and hate the other.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14930502]Simmons was never a high scorer either, he's actually probably what Rondo would look like if he was 6'10, it's weird you like one and hate the other.[/QUOTE]
You do understand what the term "overrated" means, right? Seeing as you're using it you should be aware of the meaning. If a player makes the All-Star team and another player does not then he is being rated more highly. When the Celtics won the tutle Rondo was a roleplayer, 4th best player on the team, not an All-Star. Simmons was an All-Star, second-best player on the team, and if a guy is averaging 16 then he is being counted on to score. The 4, 5, and 6 point playoff games are completely unacceptable, and durectly lead to his coach admitting that he wasn't sure he could be the point guard for a champ team.

If Rondo was 6'10 he'd have been Magic. The tragic flaw of Simmons is being deathly afraid of shooting. Rondo was a bad shooter when he was young and worked on it to the point where he was respectable late in his career. The way Simmons has been acting we can't even be sure there will be any "late in his career." You're wrong. It happens. Get over it.

[QUOTE=tpols;14930500]
All that after projecting THEMSELVES... not the media or others, straight from the horses mouth that they'd be a Bill Russell 5+ rings level dynasty.

So you tell me.[/QUOTE]
How many athletes have said things about themselves or teams, with conviction in a serious setting and you still here holding on to a ticket holder only pep rally speech. This trope wore out like a decade ago man. And 2 rings and 4 finals appearances in 4 years is something only Goldenstate has been able to match/surpass. Since the start of this century when the Lakers 3 peated. Aka doesn't happen very often at all

Cheatles were a big time disappointment

[video=youtube;2_LUnTQHV4c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_LUnTQHV4c[/video]

They weren't as dominant nor cohesive as the dynasty warriors were. It would have been interesting to see them win b2b 60-games but it didn't happen at all. A bit weird considering lebron did it in years 2009 and 2010. Under the trio they also got their first ring in a lockout season. And 2014 raises an interesting question; would lebron have left the team if they did win the title that year?

was 4 finals straight with 2 chips underachieving um?

list every team in nba history that has done 4 finals straight and won at least 2 of them thangs

ill wait...short list

yep
11-14 heat
15-19 warriors
82-85 lakers

thats the list

2 rings
4 finals

in 4 years


I think heat fans are doing alright :oldlol:

[IMG]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TkyQFKIPhqo/sddefault.jpg[/IMG]
[video=youtube;hDDzmksK4fw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=hDDzmksK4fw[/video]

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;14930494]It’s hard to call 4 straight finals with 2 titles underachieving. I don’t care who you are, that’s an impressive 4 year span.[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of us - myself included - bought into the real world playing out like 2k. Looking back now... the expectations i put on that heat team was silly and impossible to achieve.

[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14930754]was 4 finals straight with 2 chips underachieving um?

list every team in nba history that has done 4 finals straight and won at least 2 of them thangs

ill wait...short list

yep
11-14 heat
15-19 warriors
82-85 lakers

thats the list[/QUOTE]

HEAT is a "super team"..................and Others are NOT!.

built off specifically from 3 Franchisee (HEAT + CAVS + RAPTORS)

All 3, Bron, Wade (2006 FMVP) and Bosh are franchise that teams were built around

nobody is going to build a team around Klay or old Perish or old Kareem.

to top this off, HEATles did under accomplished big big time.

especially, in light of 2011 MAVS loss.

2011 MAVs are no way close to 1982 SIXERS or 1984 Celtics.

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;14930509]How many athletes have said things about themselves or teams, with conviction in a serious setting and you still here holding on to a ticket holder only pep rally speech. This trope wore out like a decade ago man. And [B]2 rings and 4 finals appearances in 4 years is something only Goldenstate has been able to match/surpass[/B]. Since the start of this century when the Lakers 3 peated. Aka doesn't happen very often at all[/QUOTE]

IMO, 2 Finals appearance (especially in the East) <> 1 ring. Spurs got 3 rings in 5 years from the brutal West. 2011 was one of the biggest chokes and 2014 the biggest rout in Finals history.

Team LeBron is the only team to beat Tim homosexual Duncan in the NBA finals

[QUOTE=rmt;14930968]IMO, 2 Finals appearance (especially in the East) <> 1 ring. Spurs got 3 rings in 5 years from the brutal West. 2011 was one of the biggest chokes and 2014 the biggest rout in Finals history.[/QUOTE]

No doubt the Spurs did well, I guess just outside that window I named arbitrarily because the heatles were the subject. I think there were a couple of tough teams in the east but it definitely wasn't as tough as the west, but you can only play who's in front of you. 4 straight finals and 2 rings back to back is tough to call disappointing. It's not an easily replicated task at all.

They won a lock out ring and barely beat the Spurs. Got demolished a year later.

2 rings is alright but Bron coming out saying not 1 not 2 not 6 not 7 and end up disappearing when push came to shovel in '11 is top 5 goat sports moment Ive witnessed.

[QUOTE=Lebron23;14930976]Team LeBron is the only team to beat Tim homosexual Duncan in the NBA finals[/QUOTE]

but still Team LeBronze has a 1-2 LOOSING finals record against Team Duncan!

It's a major underachievement compared to the GOAT standard of what Jordan would've done, but for most players it wouldn't be an underachievement... Only for guys like Bird, Jordan, Kobe or Duncan, who obviously would've 3-peated or 4-peated and then stayed with the franchise.. so that's a massive gap compared to what lebron did

btw, in 2014, Duncan had all the age excuses to lose that Lebron had this year and last year and the year before